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Offline youssef

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #225 on: October 11, 2017, 04:10:50 PM »
Maybe it is me I just want to stay a normal human. What we will do if we are in theosis state, we will still capable of enjoying a good music for example. The best gift is that we are human.
normal humanity is deified humanity

A human on earth can love, hate, forgive, have some down moment... Does we still have that when we are defied. If you live in a state for ever it will be boring.


It's quite an odd thing when I hear someone think of communion with the infinite source of all goodness to be boring.  Odd because it only means those who think that way do not know what they're talking about.  I think life would be quite an accomplishment without hate or suffering, and there is a greater freedom in all things sinless than there are when sin occurs.

We don't know how this state will be. It is a little bit poetry.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #226 on: October 11, 2017, 04:30:27 PM »
Sure, but you can get a taste of this state now.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Tonedawg

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #227 on: October 11, 2017, 04:33:32 PM »
I am translating and studying the words of St Severus himself, and have been doing so for 25 years.

The fact that you do not consider him a Father, though he is among the greatest, should remind you that this an OO forum, and that the OO is the general basis of discussion.

As a Maronite we say that Severus is responsible for killing 350 monks from the monastery of Saint Maron.
It is a discussion forum.

Yes, but it’s also the OO section, not the section that challenges OO authority.  Know where you post.  Not every section allows you to freely criticize.  St. Severus is an authority to us, and he was clear in his fight against Julian of Halicarnassus on his adversity with certain ideas that could be traced to St. Augustine, who does not take priority in our patristic library, at least not in St. Severus’s time.

I am not refusing that he is an OO authority, but you cannot consider him as an orthodox authority.

That makes no sense at all youssef.  That’s like me saying “I know Maximus the Confessor is an EO authority, but you cannot consider him as an Orthodox authority.”  He may not be an Orthodox authority to you, but to the Copts, he is called the “pillar of faith” with St. Cyril of Alexandria.

That is not what i meant he is an OO authority but not an EO authority.
For me orthodoxy as word has no meaning it is something like sunna every muslim say that he is the real sunna.
Forget about him, and what do you think about Anba Ghrighorious(1919-2001).
By the way i didn't found anything problem for me in the video of Anba Bichoy.

Anba Gregorious was a man who abandoned some of the Western Captivity ideas he held.  When Anba Bishoy was ordained a bishop, not even a year went by after his ordination when he started to attack Anba Gregorious.

The video of Anba Bishoy has many problems:

1.  He said that anyone who believes the “breathe of life” mentioned in Genesis 2:7 is the Holy Spirit believes that the Holy Spirit was incarnate in Adam.  Anyone who thinks that the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit is dwelling in and united to someone is saying there’s a “hypostatic union”.

2.  He said that “eternal life” is not something shared by His nature, but by His will, and therefore it is a created gift, not uncreated

3.  I did not understand his issue on “holol el Roh el Quddus” versus “qnome el Roh el Quddus”.  He said he doesn’t mind “holol el qnome” (coming of the hypostasis) so long as you don’t say “itihad el qnome” (hypostatic union).  He is against saying the divinity of the hypostasis was united to the humanity of the Apostles, as Abouna Matta said (which is a vague reference and terminology that has nothing to do with hypostatic union)

4.  He said that the Apostles upon receiving breath from Christ did not receive “To Pnevma”, but “Pnevma”, alluding to gift or operation of the Spirit to loose and remit, not the actual Holy Spirit Himself.   Whenever he ordains a presbyter, he says “received a holy spirit”, not “THE Holy Spirit”.  They merely received cheirotonia.  He uses 1 Corinthians 12 as support, the “many gifts, one Spirit” idea.  You cannot divide and multiple Holy Spirits.  Those are merely gifts and operations to him, “energy”.


These are some of the problems I saw in the video lecture.

Anything in english about the Anba Gregarious vs Anba Bishoy beef? I heard some stuff but I don't know much about Anba Gregarious abandoning some of these believes!
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline youssef

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #228 on: October 11, 2017, 04:46:20 PM »
I know that anba grigorius had some problem with Pope Shenouda. There is letter between them in Arabic. But I know nothing about anba Bichoy.

Offline youssef

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #229 on: October 11, 2017, 04:48:24 PM »
Sure, but you can get a taste of this state now.

That is what I am saying we have some state of comunion in earth.because God has become men.not for eternity.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #230 on: October 11, 2017, 04:53:16 PM »
Nothing in English Tone...all in Arabic.  One letter I don’t remember seeing from where (someone who read Arabic verbally translated it for me) had Bishop Gregorious respond in a public letter to then newly ordained Bishop Bishoy, who challenged Anba Bishoy to level theological accusations against him to his face and to the faces of all the bishops in the next Synodal meeting.  Needless to say, I don’t think this went anywhere afterwards, and given that Bishop Gregorious was one of the five bishops which replaced Pope Shenouda during his house arrest under Sadat, Pope Shenouda never really invited him or the other three living bishops at the time to the Synodal meetings ever again out of displeasure.  But Bishop Gregorious was never tried for any doctrinal deviations either and he just continued to serve the church while keeping his distance from Pope Shenouda and close supporters of his.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:55:01 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #231 on: October 11, 2017, 04:57:00 PM »
Sure, but you can get a taste of this state now.

That is what I am saying we have some state of comunion in earth.because God has become men.not for eternity.

Youssef, ya habibi, I’m not sure what your problem is anymore
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #232 on: October 11, 2017, 05:04:52 PM »
Sure, but you can get a taste of this state now.

That is what I am saying we have some state of comunion in earth.because God has become men.not for eternity.

Youssef, ya habibi, I’m not sure what your problem is anymore

As God has becoming men, we as men has the capability to comune with him in our life but not in all our life. Sometimes will be back sinner. This human nature is the best gift that God give us. As he know that Adam will sin.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #233 on: October 11, 2017, 05:21:34 PM »
Sure, but you can get a taste of this state now.

That is what I am saying we have some state of comunion in earth.because God has become men.not for eternity.

Youssef, ya habibi, I’m not sure what your problem is anymore

As God has becoming men, we as men has the capability to comune with him in our life but not in all our life. Sometimes will be back sinner. This human nature is the best gift that God give us. As he know that Adam will sin.

While we are weak, Christ gave us a command.  "Be perfect"...and he did not stop right there.  He did not say be perfect like Noah, or Enoch, or Abraham, or Moses, or Elijah, or Jonah.  He did not even say be perfect like me, as you see flesh and bones.  No, He said "Be perfect as Your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).  Yes, we may sin, but our goal is to seek grace, and in doing so, we grow stronger AGAINST sin.

Human nature is the best gift God gave us, and we treat this gift with every diligent care, not with expectations that I will drop it or mess it up.  If I get a watch, I don't expect it to fall or be cracked.  If it falls, I pick it up quickly, clean it up, and fix any scratches I might see if possible.  That's how we should treat a gift, by taking care of it and making it better and avoiding mishaps as best as possible, as PERFECT.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 05:22:13 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #234 on: October 11, 2017, 05:24:59 PM »
Sure, but you can get a taste of this state now.

That is what I am saying we have some state of comunion in earth.because God has become men.not for eternity.

Youssef, ya habibi, I’m not sure what your problem is anymore

As God has becoming men, we as men has the capability to comune with him in our life but not in all our life. Sometimes will be back sinner. This human nature is the best gift that God give us. As he know that Adam will sin.

While we are weak, Christ gave us a command.  "Be perfect"...and he did not stop right there.  He did not say be perfect like Noah, or Enoch, or Abraham, or Moses, or Elijah, or Jonah.  He did not even say be perfect like me, as you see flesh and bones.  No, He said "Be perfect as Your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).  Yes, we may sin, but our goal is to seek grace, and in doing so, we grow stronger AGAINST sin.

Human nature is the best gift God gave us, and we treat this gift with every diligent care, not with expectations that I will drop it or mess it up.  If I get a watch, I don't expect it to fall or be cracked.  If it falls, I pick it up quickly, clean it up, and fix any scratches I might see if possible.  That's how we should treat a gift, by taking care of it and making it better and avoiding mishaps as best as possible, as PERFECT.

He's admitted he's not open to change. He will do what he does.
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Offline youssef

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #235 on: October 11, 2017, 05:35:13 PM »
Perfect thing are not the most beautiful thing. So when you will have scratch on your soul you will shine more. Take a blues singer for example.
I know that there is some problem with what I am saying because I am supposed that the state of the fall is just different from the state before, but we cannot say that a state is better then the other one.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #236 on: October 11, 2017, 06:37:44 PM »
Maybe it is me I just want to stay a normal human. What we will do if we are in theosis state, we will still capable of enjoying a good music for example. The best gift is that we are human.

LOL.  If Pope Shenouda appears to poo-poo theosis, he's committed the unforgivable sin.  But everyone else can chuck it in the trash because "music".

+1

If you didn't say something, I was going to!  :laugh:

Anything in english about the Anba Gregarious vs Anba Bishoy beef? I heard some stuff but I don't know much about Anba Gregarious abandoning some of these believes!

If anyone isn't getting along with a bishop named "Gregarious", you know he's just intent on being a jerk.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 06:38:43 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #237 on: October 11, 2017, 08:03:04 PM »
Perfect thing are not the most beautiful thing. So when you will have scratch on your soul you will shine more. Take a blues singer for example.
I know that there is some problem with what I am saying because I am supposed that the state of the fall is just different from the state before, but we cannot say that a state is better then the other one.

If someone else is trying to burden you, flesh or soul, you will shine more.  But if you self-inflict that scratch, then there's nothing beautiful about that.  It's like someone who cuts himself just to feel pain due to psychiatric problems.

Here's a good analogy.  You are a runner.  You want to run a marathon.  What do you do?  You eat healthy, you practice by running daily, you stretch, you make sure when you exercise you don't over-exert yourself or hurt yourself.  You keep your body healthy and strong and it gets stronger.  You start to have a toned body and you start to have a larger stamina.  What's more beautiful?  That or eating unhealthily all the time and being a couch potato? (sorry for anyone here...just an analogy  :P )

So, be perfect because that is beautiful.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline qawe

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #238 on: October 11, 2017, 10:28:36 PM »
Quote
Anything in english about the Anba Gregarious vs Anba Bishoy beef? I heard some stuff but I don't know much about Anba Gregarious abandoning some of these believes!

If anyone isn't getting along with a bishop named "Gregarious", you know he's just intent on being a jerk.

LOL!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #239 on: October 11, 2017, 10:43:26 PM »
You know who else didn’t get along with a bishop named Gregorious? His name was Diodore  ;)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #240 on: October 11, 2017, 11:34:22 PM »
I see it like this we are in Christ, with Christ and towards Christ but on this earth. That is our role as human to try to transcendent to the human state of God in this earth.But at the end however we try to get it we will still unworthy.
Saint Paul has said something about however you get from God gift you will still unworthy.

No one says that by being deified we are worthy of it.  Far from it.  God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.  Furthermore, to transcend this world is what we were made to do originally.  To be made in the image and likeness of God means we have access to partake of God.  Thirteenth century Coptic Theologian from al Awlad al Assal said it quite explicitly that if Allah (writing against Muslims) is most beneficient and generous, then being “most” generous means His generosity even extends to sharing His essence with us, we who are made in the image and likeness of Him.

But we do not do this out of any effort from ourselves, but also by working with the grace of God who helps us in our troubles, we who humbly admit our troubles.  This assisting is also a step towards deification.  God makes us worthy, we do not make ourselves worthy.

Do you have any knowledge of English translations or resources relating to Awlad al Assal?  He sounds like the perfect late Medieval Coptic-Arabic theologian I've been looking for as a "bridge" between St. Severus, St. Jacob of Sarugh, St. Gregorios bar Hebraeus, et al, into modern Oriental Orthodoxy as experienced specifically in the Arabic-influenced Coptic and Syriac churches.
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Offline irishpilgrim

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #241 on: October 12, 2017, 12:33:52 AM »
From a recent Coptic Doctrine Convention in Egypt held by H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy, and H.G. Bishop Mussa.

Translation of Dr. Maurice Tawadros's speech at the Coptic Doctrine Convention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqaJW_KjEnI&t=5s

"The Church is no longer one (in education) but it has become a gathering. Everyone teaches and says what he wants. So before talking about unity with other churches, we need internal unity.
He did not create in the Church those who are like Athanasius and Cyril. Do not tell me that so and so said, or father so and so said… Who says that we replace the great scholars of the Church and our great fathers, who gave us accurate teachings and were exiled and stood before Arius and Nestorius with any one? Unfortunately, we are replacing our great fathers and great teachers with some people who have received a certificate from here or there.
We live in this situation now. The Church is no longer one but has turned into factions.. Each faction has an opinion. Each faction has a teacher.
We do not need to formulate our dogma!!! The one who believes that the Coptic Church needs to define its doctrine is in error. The same is in error who believes we need to form a committee to teach us doctrine. Does the Coptic Church have no doctrine?! Does the Coptic Church have no dogma to this point? Will we begin now define to define the faith of the Church? And yet people come to us and tell us views we have not heard for the past 2000 years!
I am troubled. And I see many youth troubled. When I see in the heart of the seminary that the student hears from the professor one teaching and hears from another professor completely different teachings. One confirms to him the existence of the inheritance of original sin. The other makes fun of the existence of original sin, saying that this so and so great person said this or that .. Who is this great person? Who is this who distorts the doctrine?
We live in a farce. What will we teach after that? We know what is fueling the disputes. We know what is fueling the difference in understanding of doctrine. This way we kill our doctrine! What is the position of the student in the seminary when he hears this? What will that student do? Will he go to the right or left? Where will he go? He will lose everything. I am afraid that he may end up losing his faith. Believe me .This is the seed of atheism. Even if it is not announced as such.
His Holiness Pope Tawdros in the last issue of the seminary magazine spoke in his article about the Coptic Orthodox Church...about its sound doctrine .. about its true faith .. He said very nice words .. "We are an Orthodox Church, and we are not Chalcedonians" These words attracted me . The Pope in his speech explained that our faith has boundaries. He said, "We belong to the Coptic Orthodox Church, which has a history, and has maintained faith through all ages. As for our relationship with churches in the whole world, I can keep what suits me, but within the framework of Orthodox doctrine.”
Therefore, it is not correct in the seminary for a student to hear one teaching and then hear the opposite .. What the Church is currently living is fatal .. There may not be a time where we find those who are living among the sheep!
They say what do you think that father Matthew the Poor says so and so, and George Bibawi says so and so. What is this? Will these teach us ?! !! .. We want the teachings of Athanasius and Cyril!
I have one final word. Anyone who boasts of their knowledge of the Greek language, let me tell you that anyone can learn the Greek language in one year! Give me fifty people and I will teach them the Greek language.
In our dispute with the Greek Church, the dispute is no longer about the nature of Christ. This was in the past. The Greek Church now is very far from the ancient Greek Church, and far from the Orthodox teachings of the ancient Greek Church. What we hear from their teachings now is no longer the teaching of the Fathers. Liberalism has entered the Church more than it has entered into society. Liberalism has entered the Greek Church. I will remind you of a simple example. I have Greek books and gave them to our students. They are very different than the modern Greek books. What was taught in the old books is completely different from what is taught now. It is not the language of the fathers, but a modern translation.
We are in danger .. I am not comfortable ..I decided to withdraw from all work in the church and dedicated myself to organize a group in order to teach them the Greek language, through which they can subject themselves to the mind of the fathers, so that no one can mislead them."

Aslo, H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy has declared heresy to those who claim that the breath of life, that was breathed into Adam in creation, is the Holy Spirit!

Looks like things are heading to a boiling point in the Coptic Church in terms of theological education!

Thank you, Tonedawg, for this important translation. I hope the translation is materially correct. Who was the translator? Has the translator made any material changes to the text? If not, Dr. Tawadros has stated the same concerns, on different, but spiritually related subjects, that I have felt, and expressed for some time - which has earned me repeated fabricated calumnious attacks, and banishment (like SS Athanasius, Chrysostom and Dioscorus) from the irrational, simple minded Freudian/feminist/ecuminist dictators now in control of the Coptic Tasbeha Forum.

Since my preparation for Coptic rebaptism, I have not been able to agree to unity with any other churches, except ROCOR, until the Coptic Church has established a strong, unified internal scripture/patristic based Orthodox catechetical program to provide all Copts the opportunity and resources to understand and defend the essential doctrines and practices (ESPECIALLY INCLUDING SCRIPTURAL PATRIARCHAL GENDER AND FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS) of traditional Coptic Christian Orthodoxy. Of course, the new varied languages of immigration are difficulties, especially for the immigrant youths, that exponentially obstruct this objective. Before considering  formal unity with any other church or jurisdiction, Coptic leadership should make an extended study, to obtain, and provide knowledge of the traditional, and current doctrines, practices and morals of the prospective new partner church that could be detrimental, and/or beneficial to Coptic congregations and individuals - particularly as the new denominational partners may fatally affect the inevitable future mixed marriage and family relationships with new cultures, inlaws and children. The epidemic of Coptic feminist revolt, Freudian psychology, and divorce promotion in California and the U.S. South (and probably world wide) should be addressed and corrected internally, before introducing Coptic families to rampant Catholic and Greek gender and family instabilities and immoralities. These concerns are based upon my family's divisive Catholic feminist and psychologist/priest betrayals and approximate 10 years of close, deep, beneficial active participation in and observation of all of the various available major U.S. EO jurisdictions.

I agree with Dr. Tawadros's concern for the confused theological innovations such as those of Father Matta and George Bibawi. I'm not aware of, nor interested in George Bibawi's apparently controversial loose cannon ego trips. During my study for Coptic Baptism, I was disappointed with Fr. Matta's irrational proposals to open Coptic communion to all comers, and his theory of the evolutionary physical and spiritual development of women for all traditional and scriptural roles that had been delegated to men, apparently including priesthood and family leadership.

My experience also verifies Dr. Tawadros's judgment of additional current Greek departures from more Orthodox teachings than Christology. In addition to current Greek use of translation tweaks to modify ancient traditional Orthodox teachings, I have had personal experiences of modern Greek abandonment of the Orthodox scriptural gender and family codes. I attended a marriage and family workshop at the Greek Cathedral in Houston that was entirely conducted by Church sponsored private mercenary anti-family psychologists and divorce lawyers. When I questioned this format, the priest/pastor stated that all of the priests' time and effort could not start to address the volume and complexity of the parish's family problems. I also attended a weekly advent bible study conducted by the priest/pastor of the Greek Church in Cincinnati. Several feminist Greek professional women attended the bible study. Every patriarchal scriptural reading was questioned and criticized by these feminists. After several weeks, the priest/pastor announced that he would respond to the feminists' concerns at the next meeting. At that time the priest/pastor announced that he agreed with the feminists' objections to the patriarchal scripture passages and that his belief is that women, who pass the seminary courses that qualify men for ordination, should also be ordained. The assistant pastor was a recent Holy Cross seminary graduate. When I questioned him concerning the priest/pastor's belief in women's ordination, he told me that most of those attending Holy Cross secretly held the same belief. Coptic women feminists hold Greek Bishop Kallistos Ware in high regard because of his weakly veiled support for women's ordination to priesthood. Because my primary concerns are the destruction of the Scriptural and Patristic gender and family foundations of Orthodox Christianity and God created order in society that I am closest to, I attempt to most closely observe and study the deterioration in Coptic gender and family theology and practice relative to the the advanced broken, dead and decayed states of Catholic and Greek gender and family practices. Intimate experiences of the Catholic clerical betrayal of my young family concerned me more than guitar and clown masses, psychology certified priests and dykes, homosexual priest recruitments, dallying and pediphilia, and homosexual Catholic seminaries at the time that I fled the RCC of my Irish heritage. In time, I found the Greeks to be mired in similar demonic deviations. Now the LA and SUS Copts, Pope Tawadros's scientific search for new outside relationships and understandings, and energized Coptic feminist activists, nuns, vested deaconesses, and uncovered, Western educated, open-minded rebels are frantically fighting and dancing to happily join the fray and fun, led by Bishop Mussa's Department of Youth's army of bold disingenus feminist propagandists. Pray for Metropolitan Bishoy's struggle to defend the true Apostolic Coptic Orthodoxy that was given to us by SS Mark, Athanasius, Cyril, Dioscorus, Severus, …, Pope Kyrillos VI, Bishop Gregorios, and now, Metropolitan Bishoy, Abouna Shenouda, and Dr. Tawadros.     
     

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #242 on: October 12, 2017, 04:16:00 AM »
understand and defend the essential doctrines and practices (ESPECIALLY INCLUDING SCRIPTURAL PATRIARCHAL GENDER AND FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS) of traditional Coptic Christian Orthodoxy.
Church is about Christ, and not a school of moralism. Yes, as we become Christ-like, we abstain from immoral behaviour. But the purpose of Orthodoxy is not moralism, but theosis. Also, if anyone expects from Orthodoxy a licence to mistreat women, forget about it. All things must happen in love. By the way, Copts are known in Egypt for their good treatment of their wives. The situation is rather different among the adherents of Egypt's majority religion.

Fr. Matta's irrational proposals to open Coptic communion to all comers
Can anyone confirm this? First time I hear about that.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #243 on: October 12, 2017, 06:47:56 AM »
I see it like this we are in Christ, with Christ and towards Christ but on this earth. That is our role as human to try to transcendent to the human state of God in this earth.But at the end however we try to get it we will still unworthy.
Saint Paul has said something about however you get from God gift you will still unworthy.

No one says that by being deified we are worthy of it.  Far from it.  God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.  Furthermore, to transcend this world is what we were made to do originally.  To be made in the image and likeness of God means we have access to partake of God.  Thirteenth century Coptic Theologian from al Awlad al Assal said it quite explicitly that if Allah (writing against Muslims) is most beneficient and generous, then being “most” generous means His generosity even extends to sharing His essence with us, we who are made in the image and likeness of Him.

But we do not do this out of any effort from ourselves, but also by working with the grace of God who helps us in our troubles, we who humbly admit our troubles.  This assisting is also a step towards deification.  God makes us worthy, we do not make ourselves worthy.

Do you have any knowledge of English translations or resources relating to Awlad al Assal?  He sounds like the perfect late Medieval Coptic-Arabic theologian I've been looking for as a "bridge" between St. Severus, St. Jacob of Sarugh, St. Gregorios bar Hebraeus, et al, into modern Oriental Orthodoxy as experienced specifically in the Arabic-influenced Coptic and Syriac churches.

“Coptic Christology in Practice” by Stephen Davis
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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #244 on: October 12, 2017, 06:53:31 AM »
understand and defend the essential doctrines and practices (ESPECIALLY INCLUDING SCRIPTURAL PATRIARCHAL GENDER AND FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS) of traditional Coptic Christian Orthodoxy.
Church is about Christ, and not a school of moralism. Yes, as we become Christ-like, we abstain from immoral behaviour. But the purpose of Orthodoxy is not moralism, but theosis. Also, if anyone expects from Orthodoxy a licence to mistreat women, forget about it. All things must happen in love. By the way, Copts are known in Egypt for their good treatment of their wives. The situation is rather different among the adherents of Egypt's majority religion.

Fr. Matta's irrational proposals to open Coptic communion to all comers
Can anyone confirm this? First time I hear about that.

Read his posting history and then judge for yourself whether to take him seriously or not.  A lot of us have ignored his posts frankly.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #245 on: October 12, 2017, 07:13:51 AM »
Also when someone compares himself to St. John Chrysostom’s suffering for getting kicked out an online forum, that’s when I stop reading.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #246 on: October 12, 2017, 11:11:24 AM »
I'm not one for armchair diagnosis- oh who am I kidding, yes I am- but, based on my medical degree from University of Google, and my experience reading the work of various cranks diagnosed with schizophrenia (Gene Ray, Francis E Dec, Esq), irishpilgrim's paranoid, word-salad posting style strikes me as evincing some mild schizophrenia. He needs help, not the kind an internet forum will provide. That may just be my Freudian feminist ecumenist modernist globalist brainwashing talking though.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Tonedawg

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #247 on: October 12, 2017, 03:14:53 PM »
I see it like this we are in Christ, with Christ and towards Christ but on this earth. That is our role as human to try to transcendent to the human state of God in this earth.But at the end however we try to get it we will still unworthy.
Saint Paul has said something about however you get from God gift you will still unworthy.

No one says that by being deified we are worthy of it.  Far from it.  God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.  Furthermore, to transcend this world is what we were made to do originally.  To be made in the image and likeness of God means we have access to partake of God.  Thirteenth century Coptic Theologian from al Awlad al Assal said it quite explicitly that if Allah (writing against Muslims) is most beneficient and generous, then being “most” generous means His generosity even extends to sharing His essence with us, we who are made in the image and likeness of Him.

But we do not do this out of any effort from ourselves, but also by working with the grace of God who helps us in our troubles, we who humbly admit our troubles.  This assisting is also a step towards deification.  God makes us worthy, we do not make ourselves worthy.

Do you have any knowledge of English translations or resources relating to Awlad al Assal?  He sounds like the perfect late Medieval Coptic-Arabic theologian I've been looking for as a "bridge" between St. Severus, St. Jacob of Sarugh, St. Gregorios bar Hebraeus, et al, into modern Oriental Orthodoxy as experienced specifically in the Arabic-influenced Coptic and Syriac churches.

There is also the 13th century Coptic theologian Bishop Bulus al sushi (Paul of the Bush) who wrote on the Incarnation and our participation in God in the Eucharist. You should find it the book Mina referenced it to you.
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline Tonedawg

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #248 on: October 12, 2017, 03:16:17 PM »
Nothing in English Tone...all in Arabic.  One letter I don’t remember seeing from where (someone who read Arabic verbally translated it for me) had Bishop Gregorious respond in a public letter to then newly ordained Bishop Bishoy, who challenged Anba Bishoy to level theological accusations against him to his face and to the faces of all the bishops in the next Synodal meeting.  Needless to say, I don’t think this went anywhere afterwards, and given that Bishop Gregorious was one of the five bishops which replaced Pope Shenouda during his house arrest under Sadat, Pope Shenouda never really invited him or the other three living bishops at the time to the Synodal meetings ever again out of displeasure.  But Bishop Gregorious was never tried for any doctrinal deviations either and he just continued to serve the church while keeping his distance from Pope Shenouda and close supporters of his.

Wow that's really sad to hear all of these problems and issues.
I remember Dr. Bebawy mentioned that Anba Gregarious died a sad man!
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #249 on: October 12, 2017, 03:47:01 PM »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Tonedawg

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #250 on: October 12, 2017, 06:01:16 PM »
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #251 on: October 12, 2017, 06:22:55 PM »
Gregarious sushi...a great name for a sociable restaurant of various sushi
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #252 on: October 12, 2017, 07:25:26 PM »
Bishop Bulus al sushi

Anba Gregarious

I see what you're doing here.

Lol what am I doing exactly?

Misspelling things just slightly to make them funny.  Gregorious = Gregarious, etc.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Tonedawg

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #253 on: October 14, 2017, 03:07:40 AM »
Bishop Bulus al sushi

Anba Gregarious

I see what you're doing here.

Lol what am I doing exactly?

Misspelling things just slightly to make them funny.  Gregorious = Gregarious, etc.

Oh man I'm such an idiot lol! I didn't even notice. hahahaha.
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #254 on: October 14, 2017, 07:42:37 AM »
Is there also a Metropolitan of Sashimi?  If so I should rather like to make his acquaintance, given my great love of Otoro.
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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #255 on: October 17, 2017, 10:59:29 AM »
Youssef brought to my attention a video from the Cairo Patristic Center, a lecture on St. Severus of Antioch against Julianism and Original Sin:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dvJOaKWi654

This is a very thorough account, and if possible, I would love if someone’s Arabic better than mine could translate this for future purposes.  George Farag, the lecturer, pretty much takes a stand against the Cairo convention, even though this lecture was delivered much earlier than this Cairo Convention (February 3, 2017).  I find it telling no one in the Cairo Convention talks about St. Severus of Antioch.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #256 on: October 17, 2017, 12:00:35 PM »
Youssef brought to my attention a video from the Cairo Patristic Center, a lecture on St. Severus of Antioch against Julianism and Original Sin:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dvJOaKWi654

This is a very thorough account, and if possible, I would love if someone’s Arabic better than mine could translate this for future purposes.  George Farag, the lecturer, pretty much takes a stand against the Cairo convention, even though this lecture was delivered much earlier than this Cairo Convention (February 3, 2017).  I find it telling no one in the Cairo Convention talks about St. Severus of Antioch.

I find it more disturbing than anything else.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Tonedawg

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #257 on: October 17, 2017, 09:01:19 PM »
Youssef brought to my attention a video from the Cairo Patristic Center, a lecture on St. Severus of Antioch against Julianism and Original Sin:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dvJOaKWi654

This is a very thorough account, and if possible, I would love if someone’s Arabic better than mine could translate this for future purposes.  George Farag, the lecturer, pretty much takes a stand against the Cairo convention, even though this lecture was delivered much earlier than this Cairo Convention (February 3, 2017).  I find it telling no one in the Cairo Convention talks about St. Severus of Antioch.

I find it more disturbing than anything else.

I do too, St. Severus is probably our top theologian, and he's being ignored!
“How needful the human being is of service of the spirit, in an age where materialism, atheism, apostasy and deviant intellectual trends prevail. How needful people are to see Christ in our lives and to smell His sweet fragrance in us." St. Kyrillos (Cyril) VI

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Coptic Doctrine Convention 2017
« Reply #258 on: October 18, 2017, 04:21:32 AM »
Dr. George Farag has written a book on this topic which is only available in Arabic I think. I hope it can be translated at some point into English.
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