Author Topic: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham  (Read 9570 times)

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Offline Rohzek

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American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« on: October 02, 2017, 03:30:54 PM »
I thought this was a very fascinating lecture and talk. He speaks about numerous issues and challenges for contemporary American Orthodoxy. I largely think he is right about the great need, although challenging need, for a unified jurisdiction for Orthodoxy in America. He also speaks about the all too common tendency for converts, particularly those of a Protestant background, to think of themselves as "Greek." My favorite quote: "...Perhaps a day will then arrive when not a single Scots-Irish convert from the Deep South feels in the least obliged to convince himself that he's a Greek. For the Orthodox Church itself will remind him that there is neither Jew nor Greek nor Georgian but all are one - I meant Georgian in the American sense, but you know in an Orthodox setting that joke doesn't work."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3y_h47ByE

At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 03:33:18 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 06:16:04 PM »
I hope sincerely his views are vindicated.

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 07:05:43 PM »
Only a Gator fan would hope for a world without Georgians.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 07:15:32 PM »
Only a Gator fan would hope for a world without Georgians.

 :laugh: :laugh:
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Antonis

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 07:40:08 PM »
I enjoyed the talk and the hors d'oeuvres afterward, but the introduction was unrelated to the talk and served only to hit all the Phanar talking points.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 07:40:18 PM by Antonis »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 07:53:22 PM »
I enjoyed the talk and the hors d'oeuvres afterward, but the introduction was unrelated to the talk and served only to hit all the Phanar talking points.

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 08:49:15 PM »
I love Georgia (the one that has an autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchate). One of the most beautiful places in the world.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 10:05:59 PM »
At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

In theory it sounds fine--nice even.  But several threads have already proven that the pragmatic outworking of that is...complicated.  I'm not sure I agree that evangelical exuberance would really be an asset to Orthodoxy in America.  Maybe for outreach, yes.  But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward into a pressure-cooker style prayer life, it's sort of antithetical to the Orthodox phronema...the way I understand it (which could be way off).  I guess I just don't see how that would practically apply in parish and personal life.  I think it's enough to simply emphasize that ethnically unattached Americans can become Orthodox just as they are, and there's support for making that journey (which may differ slightly than for one who was raised Orthodox).  I hope that's coherent.  I'm sick and should probably be in bed.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 10:38:05 AM »
At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

In theory it sounds fine--nice even.  But several threads have already proven that the pragmatic outworking of that is...complicated.  I'm not sure I agree that evangelical exuberance would really be an asset to Orthodoxy in America.  Maybe for outreach, yes.  But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward into a pressure-cooker style prayer life, it's sort of antithetical to the Orthodox phronema...the way I understand it (which could be way off).  I guess I just don't see how that would practically apply in parish and personal life.  I think it's enough to simply emphasize that ethnically unattached Americans can become Orthodox just as they are, and there's support for making that journey (which may differ slightly than for one who was raised Orthodox).  I hope that's coherent.  I'm sick and should probably be in bed.

Could you perhaps give an example of evangelical exuberance gone wrong in Orthodoxy?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Ainnir

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 11:53:46 AM »
Could you perhaps give an example of evangelical exuberance gone wrong in Orthodoxy?

I can't, I'm sorry.  I was more referring to the mindset and energy I've witnessed in evangelical circles and in the larger evangelical culture.  DBH seemed to be saying it could essentially be co-opted for Orthodoxy, but I just don't see it transporting unchanged in any meaningful way into Orthodoxy.  It's not an ethnic thing, but a discipline thing.  And obliquely, an authority thing.  How do you harness a mindset that is focused on and operates through demonstrable individualized passion and emotion, and use it to further a Faith whose chief aim is subduing the passions and emotions within an hierarchy?  It's a different culture, and I don't refer to ethnicity.  We're a very external society; we think (or at least act like we think) if everyone can't see it, it's not there.  Evangelicalism has this quality through and through.  It won't translate.  Unless it is approached like a pressure-cooker.

But for a random example, how "quiet time with God" happens, and when/how/where we "meet Him" is viewed totally differently in Evangelicalism vs. Orthodoxy.  The way this is discussed in an evangelical mindset is that we basically turn God on and off when we sit and do nothing other than read about Him, think at Him, or listen to people talk about Him.  In Orthodoxy (as I understand it), it's ourselves that are somewhere on a spectrum of more or less engaged with God.  He's here, always.  You can't not have time with God; you wouldn't exist.  Whether you're dedicating your moments to Him is another matter.  This can be done in and through normal daily activity as well as during formal prayer times; a concept that is foreign to the evangelical mind.  By the time you make something like that suitable for Orthodox use, it's Orthodox anyway.  Something similar is going on with the unbridled exuberance factor. 

I think we make a mistake in saying that we need to retain "American spirituality" in order to start blurring the lines between jurisdictions.  His ultimate vision seems to presuppose a full EO-OO reunion, a single jurisdiction, and consolidated parishes.  All of which I'd love to see (again, the details being quite complicated).  But these things aren't prerequisite to Orthodoxy in America being more open to inquirers and converts, nor does such an openness require importing "American spirituality."  It's a two-way street of working on not viewing visitors from different backgrounds as a strange intrusion, and on not expecting to walk in as a visitor and have everything familiar and consumer-driven.  The rest is a lot of lives lived over much time.

Ugh, novel.  This is all just my opinion based on my limited understanding and observation.  I'm not an academic or globally cultured by a long shot.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 01:01:43 PM »
But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward
We also need a bit of outwardness. Look at Greece, they have been independent from the Ottomans for almost 200 years and I don't recall any outreach to the remaining Muslims there. (Across the border in Bulgaria, they're doing better).

In our post-Christian world, it just isn't enough to turn inward, we cannot forget all those people who know just nothing about Christ anymore, not even in a non-Orthodox way.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 01:09:42 PM »
But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward
We also need a bit of outwardness. Look at Greece, they have been independent from the Ottomans for almost 200 years and I don't recall any outreach to the remaining Muslims there. (Across the border in Bulgaria, they're doing better).

In our post-Christian world, it just isn't enough to turn inward, we cannot forget all those people who know just nothing about Christ anymore, not even in a non-Orthodox way.

True.  I wasn't clear, my apologies.  I meant inward in prayer, not in the sense of closing off from and not caring about the rest of the world.  The fruit of that prayer life would hopefully be, in part, natural outreach at all levels. Ideally.  :)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 01:46:19 PM »
I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 01:46:39 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 02:01:50 PM »
If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

I agree. Be open to all people and especially to mixed couples/families. Teach Orthodoxy.
But do keep the Greek food, music and dances.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 02:02:15 PM »
I thought this was a very fascinating lecture and talk. He speaks about numerous issues and challenges for contemporary American Orthodoxy. I largely think he is right about the great need, although challenging need, for a unified jurisdiction for Orthodoxy in America. He also speaks about the all too common tendency for converts, particularly those of a Protestant background, to think of themselves as "Greek." My favorite quote: "...Perhaps a day will then arrive when not a single Scots-Irish convert from the Deep South feels in the least obliged to convince himself that he's a Greek. For the Orthodox Church itself will remind him that there is neither Jew nor Greek nor Georgian but all are one - I meant Georgian in the American sense, but you know in an Orthodox setting that joke doesn't work."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3y_h47ByE

At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

Don't people like this ever get sick of their own voices? Oh, sure, just what America needs, more self-congratulation and homogeneity. He demonstrates about as much understanding of the underlying culturo-spiritual issues, in Orthodoxy or in America, as a mouse has of Elizabethan literature. Yet I'm confident everyone at Fordham found his cliches as profound and irefragable as the last hundred times they heard or spoke them.
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Offline RobS

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 02:11:39 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 02:31:40 PM »
If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

I agree. Be open to all people and especially to mixed couples/families. Teach Orthodoxy.
But do keep the Greek food, music and dances.
I think there is a place for both in the church. If people like Hart want to start a WR parish they can go do that, without getting other people to give up whatever culture they want to keep.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 05:13:21 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 05:15:52 PM »
I thought this was a very fascinating lecture and talk. He speaks about numerous issues and challenges for contemporary American Orthodoxy. I largely think he is right about the great need, although challenging need, for a unified jurisdiction for Orthodoxy in America. He also speaks about the all too common tendency for converts, particularly those of a Protestant background, to think of themselves as "Greek." My favorite quote: "...Perhaps a day will then arrive when not a single Scots-Irish convert from the Deep South feels in the least obliged to convince himself that he's a Greek. For the Orthodox Church itself will remind him that there is neither Jew nor Greek nor Georgian but all are one - I meant Georgian in the American sense, but you know in an Orthodox setting that joke doesn't work."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3y_h47ByE

At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

Don't people like this ever get sick of their own voices? Oh, sure, just what America needs, more self-congratulation and homogeneity. He demonstrates about as much understanding of the underlying culturo-spiritual issues, in Orthodoxy or in America, as a mouse has of Elizabethan literature. Yet I'm confident everyone at Fordham found his cliches as profound and irefragable as the last hundred times they heard or spoke them.

Virtually nothing of which you allege is anywhere close to what he said. Did you listen to the lecture?

In answer to your question, however, I'm certain that DBH is just as in love with his own voice as you are in love with your own sanctimonious self-righteousness.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 05:18:12 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.

I think there is a place for both, even for a good imbalance.  ROCOR and the WR are two imbalanced things, but in a way that is their forte. The WR seems to lack any internal balance between traditional EO culture and western culture. Traditionally ROCOR lacked any balance with western culture. That was their fortes.

I guess if the EOs had tons of cash and missionary zeal and a massive change of americans to orthodoxy, we would see tons of WR churches popping up as the quickest psychological route. There are a TON of Americans who find the eastern ritual to be a major barrier mentally, even though the doctrines are closer in some ways to Protestantism than Catholicism, e.g.. we don't have the Pope or the rosary.

I do think there is a huge cultural barrier with the eastern rite. Most Americans are low church western rite in their services.

When my elderly lutheran grandfather joined me and one of his old EO friends for liturgy, he was sympathetic and ecumenical and didn't object to teachings, he just felt the service was too much for him. I have other relatives who feel similarly, they dont feel strongly about doctrines, but they like a "simple" service.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:27:32 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 05:24:42 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.

I think there is a place for both, even for a good imbalance.  ROCOR and the WR are two imbalanced things, but in a way that is their forte. The WR seems to lack any internal balance between traditional EO culture and western culture. Traditionally ROCOR lacked any balance with western culture. That was their fortes.

I actually know next to nothing about WR, so I am not entirely certain what elements of it you are referring to. Could you perhaps elaborate?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 05:31:34 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.

I think there is a place for both, even for a good imbalance.  ROCOR and the WR are two imbalanced things, but in a way that is their forte. The WR seems to lack any internal balance between traditional EO culture and western culture. Traditionally ROCOR lacked any balance with western culture. That was their fortes.

I actually know next to nothing about WR, so I am not entirely certain what elements of it you are referring to. Could you perhaps elaborate?
Western Rite is very very similar to a traditional Anglican service (which has alot in common with Catholic and traditional Lutheran services), but they accept the teachings of orthodoxy and are under ROCOR and Antioch. So someone used to traditional western rituals could feel very familiar to it. "The Young Fogey" who loves western rituals and complains about eastern ones for example would like the feel of the WR.

Here is a western rite service with a bishop presiding:

It looks American enough in culture for a massive arrival of millions of Americans to join without the cultural barriers of the eastern rite.

I think you will agree from the picture that its important for some eo parishes to keep their eastern culture nonetheless. I don't see a need for an even balance of the two.

I added some things to my last message, BTW.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:40:11 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 05:44:06 PM »
I think the western rite has it's place, but I don't realistically see millions of Americans joining even the western rite in the near future. You would need massive resources and masses of zealous missionaries to spread the word about orthodoxy many times greater than what we have. Besides, people are gradually becoming less religious overall nationally. It looks like too much of a challenge to convert even 10 percent of the country in even a hundred years.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:45:19 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2017, 06:01:33 PM »
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.
I don't really think pews are necessary. On the contrary, I really feel more comfortable without them. And that's not an issue of west or east. A lot of churches in Greece and Romania do have pews and it just feels better to me without... maybe that's subjective.

Does the OCA usually have pews?

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 06:10:09 PM »
I think the western rite has it's place, but I don't realistically see millions of Americans joining even the western rite in the near future. You would need massive resources and masses of zealous missionaries to spread the word about orthodoxy many times greater than what we have. Besides, people are gradually becoming less religious overall nationally. It looks like too much of a challenge to convert even 10 percent of the country in even a hundred years.

Yeah. I think keeping the number of EO in the US at about 900k for the next couple generations is a solid and realistic goal.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:10:22 PM by Asteriktos »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 06:34:25 PM »
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.
I don't really think pews are necessary. On the contrary, I really feel more comfortable without them. And that's not an issue of west or east. A lot of churches in Greece and Romania do have pews and it just feels better to me without... maybe that's subjective.

Does the OCA usually have pews?

Yes. And I think it's worth having then instead of people not coming because they hate standing.

For me it doesn't matter, because I stand anyway, being in choir, but I support parishes having them, or not,  when they want.

Let me give what I think is a better example of a culture related controversy, women covering their heads. In the NT Paul recommends this, and it is an eastern rite tradition. I see a Biblical basis and a liturgical traditional one.

But are you going to successfully force the American EO women to do it? In the OCA today relatively few do, and I know even some in their 60's HATE to wear dresses and head coverings.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:43:02 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 06:44:32 PM »
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.
I don't really think pews are necessary. On the contrary, I really feel more comfortable without them. And that's not an issue of west or east. A lot of churches in Greece and Romania do have pews and it just feels better to me without... maybe that's subjective.

Does the OCA usually have pews?

Yes. And I think it's worth having then instead of people not coming because they hate standing.

For me it doesn't matter, because I stand anyway, being in choir, but I support parishes having them, or not,  when they want.

Just for a data point: I can only stand for a minute or two at a time, and if I have to choose between pews or the chairs and small benches scattered about the OCA Church I sometimes go to, I prefer the chairs--slightly softer and they allow for getting up a lot easier.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 08:10:52 PM »
I was going to say, the one OCA parish I've visited only had seating along the edges.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2017, 08:18:56 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.

I think you need to learn some ( a ) rhetoric and ( b ) history.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2017, 08:27:44 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 09:00:46 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.

I think you need to learn some ( a ) rhetoric and ( b ) history.

All bark and no bite for someone who is as uneducated as yourself. I'm currently working on my doctoral degree in history, so your comment is especially rich. Do yourself a favor and begin to criticize those with whom you disagree on the basis of substance rather than using cheap sanctimonious rhetoric. As for my own rhetoric, I'm quite fine with whatever I post here. A web forum, however great it may be, is not particularly highbrow in my book.

Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

First, DBH did not say anything about WR. At most, he mentioned the need for English to be more integrated into the current liturgies of every church, which you seem to be fine with. Again, did you even listen to the lecture?

Second, it is particularly bad on your part to imply that any desire for "Western Rite," no matter how it is formulated, cannot be a part of tradition. Furthermore, you link it, with no mention of a causal connection whatsoever, to the 1960's. Your arguments are all around pretty terrible.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:04:21 PM by Rohzek »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2017, 09:12:47 PM »
Rakovsky's comment and the subsequent discussion (which you missed in your zeal to push your hero by means of insults, evidently) wasn't regarding parishes that have an Anglo-Catholic provenance. I'm entirely on board with baptizing such folks' liturgical traditions. Not the point.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2017, 09:22:51 PM »
Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English?

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2017, 09:28:40 PM »
Rakovsky's comment and the subsequent discussion (which you missed in your zeal to push your hero by means of insults, evidently) wasn't regarding parishes that have an Anglo-Catholic provenance. I'm entirely on board with baptizing such folks' liturgical traditions. Not the point.

So now you're fine with it? Just a minute ago you were casting shade on their intentions, linking their desire to some sort of closet 1960's radicalism.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2017, 09:31:28 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main thing you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WR parishes, they should be allowed to.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:34:20 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2017, 09:32:27 PM »
Rakovsky's comment and the subsequent discussion (which you missed in your zeal to push your hero by means of insults, evidently) wasn't regarding parishes that have an Anglo-Catholic provenance. I'm entirely on board with baptizing such folks' liturgical traditions. Not the point.

So now you're fine with it? Just a minute ago you were casting shade on their intentions, linking their desire to some sort of closet 1960's radicalism.

And why would I write more when your mental digestion is already evidently clogged with my original post? Which, by the way, was not to you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2017, 09:34:08 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2017, 09:37:47 PM »
I understand on some level the magnetic pull of becoming more Evangelical. That movement took more than two hundred years to reach its supposed present success, however. -- And also partakes of the general American boosterist tendency to believe its own advertising, by the way. Hankering to taste their success is -- theology aside -- very very shortsighted.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:38:51 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2017, 09:39:06 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2017, 09:39:55 PM »
I understand on some level the magnetic pull of becoming more Evangelical. That movement took more than two hundred years to reach its supposed present success, however. -- And also partakes of the general American boosterist tendency to believe its own advertising, by the way. Hankering to taste their success is -- theology aside -- very very shortsighted.
Sure.
Are you going to give up the church fathers and replace it with Billy Graham style preachin if it brings in more people? How about half and half?

I am saying none of that is going to be successful anyway. It is not worth the trade off and we wouldn't be successful anyway.

Basic conclusion is I don't want the service half Americanized in a low church way to get "balanced" and convert the masses, in case that us what he wants. I am happy for the millions to convert, but I don't see it happening, even with americanization.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:45:05 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2017, 09:44:18 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

Thank you for that important clarification. However, even that the temptation would be the Western Rite is what I was marveling at. As for the "low church" solution, that temptation I do understand, but think of it as the same as apostasy. Now, underlying all this is an idea of an "American culture" that deserves to dominate other "cultures" and that this somehow implicates Orthodoxy -- all this is hopelessly mistaken in my opinion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2017, 09:47:37 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

Thank you for that important clarification. However, even that the temptation would be the Western Rite is what I was marveling at. As for the "low church" solution, that temptation I do understand, but think of it as the same as apostasy. Now, underlying all this is an idea of an "American culture" that deserves to dominate other "cultures" and that this somehow implicates Orthodoxy -- all this is hopelessly mistaken in my opinion.

Yes. If the culture barrier for them is too great, my recommendation is for them to start a WR parish, instead of watering down the eastern rite. The WR is closer to Protestant worship.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2017, 09:48:33 PM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:50:17 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2017, 09:53:28 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

I'm honestly curious about this approach of some sort of "low church service" you mention. Let's say someone formulates a liturgy that is something like the Novus Ordo (but more Orthodox in its structure), which is compatible with more Protestant-like hymns that are not doctrinally objectionable. Do you think that is more workable?

In my experience with Protestantism, hymns are a pretty core feature. I think developing an Orthodox liturgy that can accommodate some facets of their unique hymn culture would go a long way. And I don't see how that would necessarily water down the doctrine or the worship. Of course, they would also be singing the whole liturgy as well.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2017, 09:58:15 PM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?

This is much more-nearly our competition. Western Rite has no familiarity in such a context.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy