Author Topic: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham  (Read 9249 times)

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Offline Rohzek

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American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« on: October 02, 2017, 03:30:54 PM »
I thought this was a very fascinating lecture and talk. He speaks about numerous issues and challenges for contemporary American Orthodoxy. I largely think he is right about the great need, although challenging need, for a unified jurisdiction for Orthodoxy in America. He also speaks about the all too common tendency for converts, particularly those of a Protestant background, to think of themselves as "Greek." My favorite quote: "...Perhaps a day will then arrive when not a single Scots-Irish convert from the Deep South feels in the least obliged to convince himself that he's a Greek. For the Orthodox Church itself will remind him that there is neither Jew nor Greek nor Georgian but all are one - I meant Georgian in the American sense, but you know in an Orthodox setting that joke doesn't work."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3y_h47ByE

At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 03:33:18 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 06:16:04 PM »
I hope sincerely his views are vindicated.

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 07:05:43 PM »
Only a Gator fan would hope for a world without Georgians.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 07:15:32 PM »
Only a Gator fan would hope for a world without Georgians.

 :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline Antonis

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 07:40:08 PM »
I enjoyed the talk and the hors d'oeuvres afterward, but the introduction was unrelated to the talk and served only to hit all the Phanar talking points.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 07:40:18 PM by Antonis »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 07:53:22 PM »
I enjoyed the talk and the hors d'oeuvres afterward, but the introduction was unrelated to the talk and served only to hit all the Phanar talking points.

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 08:49:15 PM »
I love Georgia (the one that has an autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchate). One of the most beautiful places in the world.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 10:05:59 PM »
At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

In theory it sounds fine--nice even.  But several threads have already proven that the pragmatic outworking of that is...complicated.  I'm not sure I agree that evangelical exuberance would really be an asset to Orthodoxy in America.  Maybe for outreach, yes.  But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward into a pressure-cooker style prayer life, it's sort of antithetical to the Orthodox phronema...the way I understand it (which could be way off).  I guess I just don't see how that would practically apply in parish and personal life.  I think it's enough to simply emphasize that ethnically unattached Americans can become Orthodox just as they are, and there's support for making that journey (which may differ slightly than for one who was raised Orthodox).  I hope that's coherent.  I'm sick and should probably be in bed.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 10:38:05 AM »
At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

In theory it sounds fine--nice even.  But several threads have already proven that the pragmatic outworking of that is...complicated.  I'm not sure I agree that evangelical exuberance would really be an asset to Orthodoxy in America.  Maybe for outreach, yes.  But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward into a pressure-cooker style prayer life, it's sort of antithetical to the Orthodox phronema...the way I understand it (which could be way off).  I guess I just don't see how that would practically apply in parish and personal life.  I think it's enough to simply emphasize that ethnically unattached Americans can become Orthodox just as they are, and there's support for making that journey (which may differ slightly than for one who was raised Orthodox).  I hope that's coherent.  I'm sick and should probably be in bed.

Could you perhaps give an example of evangelical exuberance gone wrong in Orthodoxy?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Ainnir

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 11:53:46 AM »
Could you perhaps give an example of evangelical exuberance gone wrong in Orthodoxy?

I can't, I'm sorry.  I was more referring to the mindset and energy I've witnessed in evangelical circles and in the larger evangelical culture.  DBH seemed to be saying it could essentially be co-opted for Orthodoxy, but I just don't see it transporting unchanged in any meaningful way into Orthodoxy.  It's not an ethnic thing, but a discipline thing.  And obliquely, an authority thing.  How do you harness a mindset that is focused on and operates through demonstrable individualized passion and emotion, and use it to further a Faith whose chief aim is subduing the passions and emotions within an hierarchy?  It's a different culture, and I don't refer to ethnicity.  We're a very external society; we think (or at least act like we think) if everyone can't see it, it's not there.  Evangelicalism has this quality through and through.  It won't translate.  Unless it is approached like a pressure-cooker.

But for a random example, how "quiet time with God" happens, and when/how/where we "meet Him" is viewed totally differently in Evangelicalism vs. Orthodoxy.  The way this is discussed in an evangelical mindset is that we basically turn God on and off when we sit and do nothing other than read about Him, think at Him, or listen to people talk about Him.  In Orthodoxy (as I understand it), it's ourselves that are somewhere on a spectrum of more or less engaged with God.  He's here, always.  You can't not have time with God; you wouldn't exist.  Whether you're dedicating your moments to Him is another matter.  This can be done in and through normal daily activity as well as during formal prayer times; a concept that is foreign to the evangelical mind.  By the time you make something like that suitable for Orthodox use, it's Orthodox anyway.  Something similar is going on with the unbridled exuberance factor. 

I think we make a mistake in saying that we need to retain "American spirituality" in order to start blurring the lines between jurisdictions.  His ultimate vision seems to presuppose a full EO-OO reunion, a single jurisdiction, and consolidated parishes.  All of which I'd love to see (again, the details being quite complicated).  But these things aren't prerequisite to Orthodoxy in America being more open to inquirers and converts, nor does such an openness require importing "American spirituality."  It's a two-way street of working on not viewing visitors from different backgrounds as a strange intrusion, and on not expecting to walk in as a visitor and have everything familiar and consumer-driven.  The rest is a lot of lives lived over much time.

Ugh, novel.  This is all just my opinion based on my limited understanding and observation.  I'm not an academic or globally cultured by a long shot.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 01:01:43 PM »
But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward
We also need a bit of outwardness. Look at Greece, they have been independent from the Ottomans for almost 200 years and I don't recall any outreach to the remaining Muslims there. (Across the border in Bulgaria, they're doing better).

In our post-Christian world, it just isn't enough to turn inward, we cannot forget all those people who know just nothing about Christ anymore, not even in a non-Orthodox way.

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 01:09:42 PM »
But unless there was a way to help them turn that energy inward
We also need a bit of outwardness. Look at Greece, they have been independent from the Ottomans for almost 200 years and I don't recall any outreach to the remaining Muslims there. (Across the border in Bulgaria, they're doing better).

In our post-Christian world, it just isn't enough to turn inward, we cannot forget all those people who know just nothing about Christ anymore, not even in a non-Orthodox way.

True.  I wasn't clear, my apologies.  I meant inward in prayer, not in the sense of closing off from and not caring about the rest of the world.  The fruit of that prayer life would hopefully be, in part, natural outreach at all levels. Ideally.  :)
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 01:46:19 PM »
I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 01:46:39 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 02:01:50 PM »
If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

I agree. Be open to all people and especially to mixed couples/families. Teach Orthodoxy.
But do keep the Greek food, music and dances.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 02:02:15 PM »
I thought this was a very fascinating lecture and talk. He speaks about numerous issues and challenges for contemporary American Orthodoxy. I largely think he is right about the great need, although challenging need, for a unified jurisdiction for Orthodoxy in America. He also speaks about the all too common tendency for converts, particularly those of a Protestant background, to think of themselves as "Greek." My favorite quote: "...Perhaps a day will then arrive when not a single Scots-Irish convert from the Deep South feels in the least obliged to convince himself that he's a Greek. For the Orthodox Church itself will remind him that there is neither Jew nor Greek nor Georgian but all are one - I meant Georgian in the American sense, but you know in an Orthodox setting that joke doesn't work."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3y_h47ByE

At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

Don't people like this ever get sick of their own voices? Oh, sure, just what America needs, more self-congratulation and homogeneity. He demonstrates about as much understanding of the underlying culturo-spiritual issues, in Orthodoxy or in America, as a mouse has of Elizabethan literature. Yet I'm confident everyone at Fordham found his cliches as profound and irefragable as the last hundred times they heard or spoke them.
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Offline RobS

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 02:11:39 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 02:31:40 PM »
If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

I agree. Be open to all people and especially to mixed couples/families. Teach Orthodoxy.
But do keep the Greek food, music and dances.
I think there is a place for both in the church. If people like Hart want to start a WR parish they can go do that, without getting other people to give up whatever culture they want to keep.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 05:13:21 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 05:15:52 PM »
I thought this was a very fascinating lecture and talk. He speaks about numerous issues and challenges for contemporary American Orthodoxy. I largely think he is right about the great need, although challenging need, for a unified jurisdiction for Orthodoxy in America. He also speaks about the all too common tendency for converts, particularly those of a Protestant background, to think of themselves as "Greek." My favorite quote: "...Perhaps a day will then arrive when not a single Scots-Irish convert from the Deep South feels in the least obliged to convince himself that he's a Greek. For the Orthodox Church itself will remind him that there is neither Jew nor Greek nor Georgian but all are one - I meant Georgian in the American sense, but you know in an Orthodox setting that joke doesn't work."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3y_h47ByE

At any rate, what are y'all's thoughts on this talk?

Don't people like this ever get sick of their own voices? Oh, sure, just what America needs, more self-congratulation and homogeneity. He demonstrates about as much understanding of the underlying culturo-spiritual issues, in Orthodoxy or in America, as a mouse has of Elizabethan literature. Yet I'm confident everyone at Fordham found his cliches as profound and irefragable as the last hundred times they heard or spoke them.

Virtually nothing of which you allege is anywhere close to what he said. Did you listen to the lecture?

In answer to your question, however, I'm certain that DBH is just as in love with his own voice as you are in love with your own sanctimonious self-righteousness.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 05:18:12 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.

I think there is a place for both, even for a good imbalance.  ROCOR and the WR are two imbalanced things, but in a way that is their forte. The WR seems to lack any internal balance between traditional EO culture and western culture. Traditionally ROCOR lacked any balance with western culture. That was their fortes.

I guess if the EOs had tons of cash and missionary zeal and a massive change of americans to orthodoxy, we would see tons of WR churches popping up as the quickest psychological route. There are a TON of Americans who find the eastern ritual to be a major barrier mentally, even though the doctrines are closer in some ways to Protestantism than Catholicism, e.g.. we don't have the Pope or the rosary.

I do think there is a huge cultural barrier with the eastern rite. Most Americans are low church western rite in their services.

When my elderly lutheran grandfather joined me and one of his old EO friends for liturgy, he was sympathetic and ecumenical and didn't object to teachings, he just felt the service was too much for him. I have other relatives who feel similarly, they dont feel strongly about doctrines, but they like a "simple" service.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:27:32 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 05:24:42 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.

I think there is a place for both, even for a good imbalance.  ROCOR and the WR are two imbalanced things, but in a way that is their forte. The WR seems to lack any internal balance between traditional EO culture and western culture. Traditionally ROCOR lacked any balance with western culture. That was their fortes.

I actually know next to nothing about WR, so I am not entirely certain what elements of it you are referring to. Could you perhaps elaborate?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 05:31:34 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.

I think there is a place for both, even for a good imbalance.  ROCOR and the WR are two imbalanced things, but in a way that is their forte. The WR seems to lack any internal balance between traditional EO culture and western culture. Traditionally ROCOR lacked any balance with western culture. That was their fortes.

I actually know next to nothing about WR, so I am not entirely certain what elements of it you are referring to. Could you perhaps elaborate?
Western Rite is very very similar to a traditional Anglican service (which has alot in common with Catholic and traditional Lutheran services), but they accept the teachings of orthodoxy and are under ROCOR and Antioch. So someone used to traditional western rituals could feel very familiar to it. "The Young Fogey" who loves western rituals and complains about eastern ones for example would like the feel of the WR.

Here is a western rite service with a bishop presiding:

It looks American enough in culture for a massive arrival of millions of Americans to join without the cultural barriers of the eastern rite.

I think you will agree from the picture that its important for some eo parishes to keep their eastern culture nonetheless. I don't see a need for an even balance of the two.

I added some things to my last message, BTW.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:40:11 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 05:44:06 PM »
I think the western rite has it's place, but I don't realistically see millions of Americans joining even the western rite in the near future. You would need massive resources and masses of zealous missionaries to spread the word about orthodoxy many times greater than what we have. Besides, people are gradually becoming less religious overall nationally. It looks like too much of a challenge to convert even 10 percent of the country in even a hundred years.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:45:19 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2017, 06:01:33 PM »
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.
I don't really think pews are necessary. On the contrary, I really feel more comfortable without them. And that's not an issue of west or east. A lot of churches in Greece and Romania do have pews and it just feels better to me without... maybe that's subjective.

Does the OCA usually have pews?

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 06:10:09 PM »
I think the western rite has it's place, but I don't realistically see millions of Americans joining even the western rite in the near future. You would need massive resources and masses of zealous missionaries to spread the word about orthodoxy many times greater than what we have. Besides, people are gradually becoming less religious overall nationally. It looks like too much of a challenge to convert even 10 percent of the country in even a hundred years.

Yeah. I think keeping the number of EO in the US at about 900k for the next couple generations is a solid and realistic goal.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:10:22 PM by Asteriktos »

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 06:34:25 PM »
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.
I don't really think pews are necessary. On the contrary, I really feel more comfortable without them. And that's not an issue of west or east. A lot of churches in Greece and Romania do have pews and it just feels better to me without... maybe that's subjective.

Does the OCA usually have pews?

Yes. And I think it's worth having then instead of people not coming because they hate standing.

For me it doesn't matter, because I stand anyway, being in choir, but I support parishes having them, or not,  when they want.

Let me give what I think is a better example of a culture related controversy, women covering their heads. In the NT Paul recommends this, and it is an eastern rite tradition. I see a Biblical basis and a liturgical traditional one.

But are you going to successfully force the American EO women to do it? In the OCA today relatively few do, and I know even some in their 60's HATE to wear dresses and head coverings.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:43:02 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 06:44:32 PM »
Thanks. I can see that 3rd generation EOs are balancing with western culture, using pews, English language, etc.
I don't really think pews are necessary. On the contrary, I really feel more comfortable without them. And that's not an issue of west or east. A lot of churches in Greece and Romania do have pews and it just feels better to me without... maybe that's subjective.

Does the OCA usually have pews?

Yes. And I think it's worth having then instead of people not coming because they hate standing.

For me it doesn't matter, because I stand anyway, being in choir, but I support parishes having them, or not,  when they want.

Just for a data point: I can only stand for a minute or two at a time, and if I have to choose between pews or the chairs and small benches scattered about the OCA Church I sometimes go to, I prefer the chairs--slightly softer and they allow for getting up a lot easier.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 08:10:52 PM »
I was going to say, the one OCA parish I've visited only had seating along the edges.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2017, 08:18:56 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.

I think you need to learn some ( a ) rhetoric and ( b ) history.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2017, 08:27:44 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 09:00:46 PM »
I probably agree with everything DBH says in the video, but before I watch, is he just as much a pretentious bore talking as is his writing? I'll probably skip it if so. I'm not trying to knock the guy, obviously he's extremely well read and smart, but he just tries way too hard.

Actually, I found this talk to be one of his better ones. Not much pretentiousness as some of his others.

I agree there need to be parishes that address non ethnic EOs. But don't forget that ethnic ties were one of the main things holding the communities together.

If you took so much out of a greek church that the parishioners didnt consider it greek, a ton of them would lose interest.

If you want something that fits in seamlessly with western culture, you are stuck with a low church version of the western rite.

I don't think that is what he is advocating. In fact, he is directly opposed to it, especially since he specifically warded off the Divine Liturgy from any change. He is merely stating that Orthodoxy in America stands at a crossroad due to its increasing rates of converts. As such it will ideally find some form of balance between the ethnic side and that of spreading its message to those who are not typical of Orthodoxy's traditional demographic. He isn't asking for a revolution. He is just asking for some change.

I think you need to learn some ( a ) rhetoric and ( b ) history.

All bark and no bite for someone who is as uneducated as yourself. I'm currently working on my doctoral degree in history, so your comment is especially rich. Do yourself a favor and begin to criticize those with whom you disagree on the basis of substance rather than using cheap sanctimonious rhetoric. As for my own rhetoric, I'm quite fine with whatever I post here. A web forum, however great it may be, is not particularly highbrow in my book.

Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

First, DBH did not say anything about WR. At most, he mentioned the need for English to be more integrated into the current liturgies of every church, which you seem to be fine with. Again, did you even listen to the lecture?

Second, it is particularly bad on your part to imply that any desire for "Western Rite," no matter how it is formulated, cannot be a part of tradition. Furthermore, you link it, with no mention of a causal connection whatsoever, to the 1960's. Your arguments are all around pretty terrible.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:04:21 PM by Rohzek »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2017, 09:12:47 PM »
Rakovsky's comment and the subsequent discussion (which you missed in your zeal to push your hero by means of insults, evidently) wasn't regarding parishes that have an Anglo-Catholic provenance. I'm entirely on board with baptizing such folks' liturgical traditions. Not the point.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2017, 09:22:51 PM »
Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English?

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2017, 09:28:40 PM »
Rakovsky's comment and the subsequent discussion (which you missed in your zeal to push your hero by means of insults, evidently) wasn't regarding parishes that have an Anglo-Catholic provenance. I'm entirely on board with baptizing such folks' liturgical traditions. Not the point.

So now you're fine with it? Just a minute ago you were casting shade on their intentions, linking their desire to some sort of closet 1960's radicalism.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2017, 09:31:28 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main thing you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WR parishes, they should be allowed to.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:34:20 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2017, 09:32:27 PM »
Rakovsky's comment and the subsequent discussion (which you missed in your zeal to push your hero by means of insults, evidently) wasn't regarding parishes that have an Anglo-Catholic provenance. I'm entirely on board with baptizing such folks' liturgical traditions. Not the point.

So now you're fine with it? Just a minute ago you were casting shade on their intentions, linking their desire to some sort of closet 1960's radicalism.

And why would I write more when your mental digestion is already evidently clogged with my original post? Which, by the way, was not to you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2017, 09:34:08 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2017, 09:37:47 PM »
I understand on some level the magnetic pull of becoming more Evangelical. That movement took more than two hundred years to reach its supposed present success, however. -- And also partakes of the general American boosterist tendency to believe its own advertising, by the way. Hankering to taste their success is -- theology aside -- very very shortsighted.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:38:51 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2017, 09:39:06 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2017, 09:39:55 PM »
I understand on some level the magnetic pull of becoming more Evangelical. That movement took more than two hundred years to reach its supposed present success, however. -- And also partakes of the general American boosterist tendency to believe its own advertising, by the way. Hankering to taste their success is -- theology aside -- very very shortsighted.
Sure.
Are you going to give up the church fathers and replace it with Billy Graham style preachin if it brings in more people? How about half and half?

I am saying none of that is going to be successful anyway. It is not worth the trade off and we wouldn't be successful anyway.

Basic conclusion is I don't want the service half Americanized in a low church way to get "balanced" and convert the masses, in case that us what he wants. I am happy for the millions to convert, but I don't see it happening, even with americanization.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:45:05 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2017, 09:44:18 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

Thank you for that important clarification. However, even that the temptation would be the Western Rite is what I was marveling at. As for the "low church" solution, that temptation I do understand, but think of it as the same as apostasy. Now, underlying all this is an idea of an "American culture" that deserves to dominate other "cultures" and that this somehow implicates Orthodoxy -- all this is hopelessly mistaken in my opinion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2017, 09:47:37 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

Thank you for that important clarification. However, even that the temptation would be the Western Rite is what I was marveling at. As for the "low church" solution, that temptation I do understand, but think of it as the same as apostasy. Now, underlying all this is an idea of an "American culture" that deserves to dominate other "cultures" and that this somehow implicates Orthodoxy -- all this is hopelessly mistaken in my opinion.

Yes. If the culture barrier for them is too great, my recommendation is for them to start a WR parish, instead of watering down the eastern rite. The WR is closer to Protestant worship.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2017, 09:48:33 PM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:50:17 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2017, 09:53:28 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

I'm honestly curious about this approach of some sort of "low church service" you mention. Let's say someone formulates a liturgy that is something like the Novus Ordo (but more Orthodox in its structure), which is compatible with more Protestant-like hymns that are not doctrinally objectionable. Do you think that is more workable?

In my experience with Protestantism, hymns are a pretty core feature. I think developing an Orthodox liturgy that can accommodate some facets of their unique hymn culture would go a long way. And I don't see how that would necessarily water down the doctrine or the worship. Of course, they would also be singing the whole liturgy as well.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2017, 09:58:15 PM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?

This is much more-nearly our competition. Western Rite has no familiarity in such a context.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2017, 10:00:48 PM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?

This is much more-nearly our competition. Western Rite has no familiarity in such a context.

Most of Protestantism is not non-denominational nor is it comprised of mega-churches.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2017, 10:04:15 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

I'm honestly curious about this approach of some sort of "low church service" you mention. Let's say someone formulates a liturgy that is something like the Novus Ordo (but more Orthodox in its structure), which is compatible with more Protestant-like hymns that are not doctrinally objectionable. Do you think that is more workable?

In my experience with Protestantism, hymns are a pretty core feature. I think developing an Orthodox liturgy that can accommodate some facets of their unique hymn culture would go a long way. And I don't see how that would necessarily water down the doctrine or the worship. Of course, they would also be singing the whole liturgy as well.

There are a few church groups that still center the service around old hymns, but I challenge you to refresh your memory of the lyrics. These are usually blandly emotional in emphasis ("I walk in the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses," "I tell you how I know he lives: he lives within my heart," "Just as I am without one plea"), and very often unorthodox.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2017, 10:07:49 PM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?

This is much more-nearly our competition. Western Rite has no familiarity in such a context.

Most of Protestantism is not non-denominational nor is it comprised of mega-churches.

You're wrong depending on the metrics, but my linked illustration wasn't meant to be taken as exactly whatever institution that particular worship team represents. The point is that, however small-y or poorly, churches attempt what you observe there and that is what most Americans are used to.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2017, 10:20:08 PM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?

This is much more-nearly our competition. Western Rite has no familiarity in such a context.

Most of Protestantism is not non-denominational nor is it comprised of mega-churches.

You're wrong depending on the metrics, but my linked illustration wasn't meant to be taken as exactly whatever institution that particular worship team represents. The point is that, however small-y or poorly, churches attempt what you observe there and that is what most Americans are used to.

No, many Protestant churches still have liturgies of some form, however lite and hymn heavy they may be. For Baptist churches, it varies from church to church.

Whatever the case, the Catholic Church has managed to adopt facets of the Protestant hymn culture into its mass, however maligned it may be, and most would-be converts from Protestantism don't seem to struggle with it.

Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

I'm honestly curious about this approach of some sort of "low church service" you mention. Let's say someone formulates a liturgy that is something like the Novus Ordo (but more Orthodox in its structure), which is compatible with more Protestant-like hymns that are not doctrinally objectionable. Do you think that is more workable?

In my experience with Protestantism, hymns are a pretty core feature. I think developing an Orthodox liturgy that can accommodate some facets of their unique hymn culture would go a long way. And I don't see how that would necessarily water down the doctrine or the worship. Of course, they would also be singing the whole liturgy as well.

There are a few church groups that still center the service around old hymns, but I challenge you to refresh your memory of the lyrics. These are usually blandly emotional in emphasis ("I walk in the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses," "I tell you how I know he lives: he lives within my heart," "Just as I am without one plea"), and very often unorthodox.

Which is why I issued the caveat of accommodating some facets. Of course, there will be many preexisting hymns that are objectionable. I never posited wholesale adoption.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2017, 10:46:40 PM »
If we are to believe converts to Catholicism don't "struggle with" the mass, why, again, are we to believe Protestant converts to Orthodoxy "struggle with" the liturgy and require something more Catholic? There are really ponderous assumptions here. The whole project of reform on an evangelical basis becomes more and more curious. What private data is all this based on? What private conversations are making the assumptions so compelling to some? But my suspicion is there is no such data or discussion but mere muddiness of thought in American heads that cannot cleanse themselves of Protestant and Catholic decay since 1960. So please, such self-satisfied American converts, used to ruling or being heard in your old milieu, leave your hands off Orthodoxy until you have attained some newness of thought. Heaven is not reached on cruise control.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2017, 10:50:46 PM »
Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

I'm honestly curious about this approach of some sort of "low church service" you mention. Let's say someone formulates a liturgy that is something like the Novus Ordo (but more Orthodox in its structure), which is compatible with more Protestant-like hymns that are not doctrinally objectionable. Do you think that is more workable?

In my experience with Protestantism, hymns are a pretty core feature. I think developing an Orthodox liturgy that can accommodate some facets of their unique hymn culture would go a long way. And I don't see how that would necessarily water down the doctrine or the worship. Of course, they would also be singing the whole liturgy as well.
Greeks used organs and pianos.

To answer your question, I am not interested in the EOs watering down the liturgy novus ordo style to make it more familiar to American converts.

If there was a mass conversion of millions on the horizon, that could put a different tint on things, but there isnt.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 10:51:16 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2017, 11:04:29 PM »
If we are to believe converts to Catholicism don't "struggle with" the mass, why, again, are we to believe Protestant converts to Orthodoxy "struggle with" the liturgy and require something more Catholic? There are really ponderous assumptions here. The whole project of reform on an evangelical basis becomes more and more curious. What private data is all this based on? What private conversations are making the assumptions so compelling to some? But my suspicion is there is no such data or discussion but mere muddiness of thought in American heads that cannot cleanse themselves of Protestant and Catholic decay since 1960. So please, such self-satisfied American converts, used to ruling or being heard in your old milieu, leave your hands off Orthodoxy until you have attained some newness of thought. Heaven is not reached on cruise control.

Calm your manboobs Caiaphas. I'm only running a simple thought experiment with rakovsky's comments about engaging with Protestants by using different liturgies.

Where is this idea coming from that what growth in America requires is an Orthodox "Western rite"? Most Americans would be as befuddled by an Anglo-Catholic service as by an Orthodox one. Maybe some vocal posters here are unaware the Orthodox liturgy is overwhelmingly conducted in English? It's bizarre. A real possibility is that such protests are code for dissatisfaction with tradition altogether. It's a cliche since the Sixties that converts are won and youth kept by radical liturgical change, preferably with guitar. I'm sure the are posters here who suspect this is true, and then of course American Orthodoxy has our share of Boomer gadflies for our sins who no doubt constitutionally crave that lite jazz sound, to accompany lite dogma. It's bizarre but suspicious.

I think if you wanted to quickly spread orthodoxy across the country, the main think you would need is a ton of resources, financial and missionary manpower, basically something similar to what protestants used against traditional orthodox regions like Alaska.

I guess that to be successful, you would want to present a more low church version of the rite, especially tge WR, so that the masses could relate to it.

But I am not advocating that plan. I prefer traditional orthodox services and don't believe we have the resources to successfully mass produce and mass distribute some kind of repackaged orthodoxy even if we wanted to. Changing our services to make them more comfortable to low church protestants would just water down what we have, and bring in very little harvest. I don't want that.

If some people on their own want to have traditional WE parishes, they should be allowed to.

So now the American populace is to be approached not by a Western Rite, but by "low church" worship services. QED.
No. I don't think a mass conversion to orthodoxy in the US is likely even if we did that.

My main point was to address those who think we need to evenly balance our services with American culture in order to bring in many new converts.

My response to that idea is that we aren't going to get a new massive wave of millions of converts even if we switched to an American low church service, so let's just focus on what we do best in order to attract people.

I'm honestly curious about this approach of some sort of "low church service" you mention. Let's say someone formulates a liturgy that is something like the Novus Ordo (but more Orthodox in its structure), which is compatible with more Protestant-like hymns that are not doctrinally objectionable. Do you think that is more workable?

In my experience with Protestantism, hymns are a pretty core feature. I think developing an Orthodox liturgy that can accommodate some facets of their unique hymn culture would go a long way. And I don't see how that would necessarily water down the doctrine or the worship. Of course, they would also be singing the whole liturgy as well.
Greeks used organs and pianos.

To answer your question, I am not interested in the EOs watering down the liturgy novus ordo style to make it more familiar to American converts.

If there was a mass conversion of millions on the horizon, that could put a different tint on things, but there isnt.

I think mass conversions are a thing of the past. Greeks also sing the liturgy along with the organs and choir though, at least in my experience.

As for the Novus Ordo point, fair enough. I don't think we should preclude some form of accommodation, whether it be liturgical or not, for wider appeal.

I do want to harken back to your point about money and resources. I think you are largely right that any concerted efforts will require a large amount of money and resources. And what significantly squanders those resources I think, and as DBH alleges, is the lack of a unified American Orthodox Church. Until then, we remain just a small enclave, however many converts we continue to attract.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:14:54 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2017, 11:20:39 PM »
I don't think the main problem is resources or man power or unity, though I would agree that more of these would produce better results. The central issue is that most Americans just wouldn't be interested; even keeping Americans who are already Orthodox engaged is difficult at this point. I don't think this is just an American problem--you see the same thing in Russia, Greece, etc., where various measures of devotion (e.g., regular church attendance, belief in fundamental doctrines) tend to be  low. The idea of throwing a bunch of resources and missionaries at America reminds me of those stories you read from time to time, in which a major record label or book publisher invests hundreds of thousands of dollars into a product, such that they have to sell 100,000 units just to break even, and the product ends up selling an absurdly low number like 417 units.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:21:34 PM by Asteriktos »

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2017, 11:24:28 PM »
If we are to believe converts to Catholicism don't "struggle with" the mass, why, again, are we to believe Protestant converts to Orthodoxy "struggle with" the liturgy and require something more Catholic? There are really ponderous assumptions here. The whole project of reform on an evangelical basis becomes more and more curious. What private data is all this based on? What private conversations are making the assumptions so compelling to some? But my suspicion is there is no such data or discussion but mere muddiness of thought in American heads that cannot cleanse themselves of Protestant and Catholic decay since 1960. So please, such self-satisfied American converts, used to ruling or being heard in your old milieu, leave your hands off Orthodoxy until you have attained some newness of thought. Heaven is not reached on cruise control.

You remind me of the guy in the anecdote at the beginning of the talk.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2017, 11:25:49 PM »
As for the Novus Ordo point, fair enough. I don't think we should preclude some form of accommodation, whether it be liturgical or not, for wider appeal.
I don't. I think actually one of the attractive things about Orthodoxy for me is how ancient it is. I agree with putting it in English, but otherwise, keep it culturally Orthodox, not watered down mostly culturally Orthodox.

If someone needs a western cultural experience in Orthodoxy, aren't as "at home" with Greek ikons, etc., they should go to the Western Rite. If most Catholics can do without guitar music in Church, I think Orthodox can.

Quote
I do want to harken back to your point about money and resources. I think you are largely right that any concerted efforts will require a large amount of money and resources. And what significantly squanders those resources I think, and as DBH alleges, is the lack of a unified American Orthodox Church. Until then, we remain just a small enclave, however many converts we continue to attract.
A unified church, like everybody joining the OCA, could help. But even then it and the resources would still be too small to realistically bring in millions with missionizing, IMO. Sure, miracles happen. But when the Protestants fielded mass missions to Africa and other regions of the world for mass mission work, they were coming with the backing of one of the most wealthy societies in the world (the US) with a large crew of zealous missionaries. This applies a bit to the Russian mission to Alaska, an empire willing to dedicate resources and a population open to hearing this.

I don't see something analogous here in the US in terms of our resource abilities, even if I'd like that, and even if we were united jurisdictionally.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2017, 11:31:09 PM »
I don't think the main problem is resources or man power or unity, though I would agree that more of these would produce better results. The central issue is that most Americans just wouldn't be interested; even keeping Americans who are already Orthodox engaged is difficult at this point. I don't think this is just an American problem--you see the same thing in Russia, Greece, etc., where various measures of devotion (e.g., regular church attendance, belief in fundamental doctrines) tend to be  low. The idea of throwing a bunch of resources and missionaries at America reminds me of those stories you read from time to time, in which a major record label or book publisher invests hundreds of thousands of dollars into a product, such that they have to sell 100,000 units just to break even, and the product ends up selling an absurdly low number like 417 units.

It sounds like you're basing your analysis on difficulty of keeping converts, which is agree is a very sound basis. But I wonder is the situation so dire with converts? I really don't know. Where do I find statistics of what proportion of converts we retain, and then how does that proportion compare to other denominations?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2017, 11:33:25 PM »
I don't think the main problem is resources or man power or unity, though I would agree that more of these would produce better results. The central issue is that most Americans just wouldn't be interested; even keeping Americans who are already Orthodox engaged is difficult at this point.
I think they are both factors.
Back in the 19th century during the Great Awakening, millions of Americansin the heartland were extremely interested in having strong religious experiences.
But even then, had the Russian empire tried to send missionaries to Kentucky, it wouldn't have worked, I think. They would need a ton of man power and resources. I am also not sure how much Americans have been interested in traditional ritual observance. The Lutherans, Catholics, and Episcopalians have always had a major share of the population, but I don't know that Orthodox would realistically do as well as them even in the best times without comparable resources.

In the Middle East in the 19th century, major numbers of people converted to Protestantism from Orthodoxy mainly because the Protestants brought a ton of assets to help people, offering education and healthcare.

So there are different factors.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2017, 11:42:59 PM »
As for the Novus Ordo point, fair enough. I don't think we should preclude some form of accommodation, whether it be liturgical or not, for wider appeal.
I don't. I think actually one of the attractive things about Orthodoxy for me is how ancient it is. I agree with putting it in English, but otherwise, keep it culturally Orthodox, not watered down mostly culturally Orthodox.

If someone needs a western cultural experience in Orthodoxy, aren't as "at home" with Greek ikons, etc., they should go to the Western Rite. If most Catholics can do without guitar music in Church, I think Orthodox can.

Quote
I do want to harken back to your point about money and resources. I think you are largely right that any concerted efforts will require a large amount of money and resources. And what significantly squanders those resources I think, and as DBH alleges, is the lack of a unified American Orthodox Church. Until then, we remain just a small enclave, however many converts we continue to attract.
A unified church, like everybody joining the OCA, could help. But even then it and the resources would still be too small to realistically bring in millions with missionizing, IMO. Sure, miracles happen. But when the Protestants fielded mass missions to Africa and other regions of the world for mass mission work, they were coming with the backing of one of the most wealthy societies in the world (the US) with a large crew of zealous missionaries. This applies a bit to the Russian mission to Alaska, an empire willing to dedicate resources and a population open to hearing this.

I don't see something analogous here in the US in terms of our resource abilities, even if I'd like that, and even if we were united jurisdictionally.

I think it would work. Maybe not like at Great Awakening levels, but I think we would be well placed to at least bump the United Methodist Church down on the top church charts.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2017, 11:48:30 PM »
I think it would work. Maybe not like at Great Awakening levels, but I think we would be well placed to at least bump the United Methodist Church down on the top church charts.
I guess if you had the Greek government sponsoring Orthodox hospitals and top schools in every US city during a time of minimal education and economic depression, you might have major success analogous to the success that Protestants coming from the West had in the Middle East in the 19th to 20th centuries.

Balance of human and financial resources is a key factor.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:49:50 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2017, 11:50:46 PM »
The Lutherans, Catholics, and Episcopalians have always had a major share of the population.

This is just inaccurate and I don't know where you folks are getting this idea. It's inaccurate today, but especially so at the time of the Great Revival, when the handful of Catholics were confined to Maryland and Lutheranism was as scarce as Judaism. Presbyterianism was the largest denomination, rapidly losing ground to the Baptists, and then the Great Revival itself quickly put Methodism as the largest denomination in America, a position it held for generations. Presbyterianism was further damaged by the schism that would become the Campbellites. In time all this would change with the vast immigrations from Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Ireland. But even today Baptists and Methodists command the largest numbers.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:51:57 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2017, 11:53:57 PM »
The Lutherans, Catholics, and Episcopalians have always had a major share of the population.

This is just inaccurate and I don't know where you folks are getting this idea. It's inaccurate today, but especially so at the time of the Great Revival, when the handful of Catholics were confined to Maryland and Lutheranism was as scarce as Judaism. Presbyterianism was the largest denomination, rapidly losing ground to the Baptists, and then the Great Revival itself quickly put Methodism as the largest denomination in America, a position it held for generations. Presbyterianism was further damaged by the schism that would become the Campbellites. In time all this would change with the vast immigrations from Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Ireland. But even today Baptists and Methodists command the largest numbers.
Major share is not necessarily most.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2017, 11:55:05 PM »
The Lutherans, Catholics, and Episcopalians have always had a major share of the population.

This is just inaccurate and I don't know where you folks are getting this idea. It's inaccurate today, but especially so at the time of the Great Revival, when the handful of Catholics were confined to Maryland and Lutheranism was as scarce as Judaism. Presbyterianism was the largest denomination, rapidly losing ground to the Baptists, and then the Great Revival itself quickly put Methodism as the largest denomination in America, a position it held for generations. Presbyterianism was further damaged by the schism that would become the Campbellites. In time all this would change with the vast immigrations from Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Ireland. But even today Baptists and Methodists command the largest numbers.

Those three groups today make up at least 23% of the US population...

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:56:52 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2017, 12:39:27 AM »
The Lutherans, Catholics, and Episcopalians have always had a major share of the population.

This is just inaccurate and I don't know where you folks are getting this idea. It's inaccurate today, but especially so at the time of the Great Revival, when the handful of Catholics were confined to Maryland and Lutheranism was as scarce as Judaism. Presbyterianism was the largest denomination, rapidly losing ground to the Baptists, and then the Great Revival itself quickly put Methodism as the largest denomination in America, a position it held for generations. Presbyterianism was further damaged by the schism that would become the Campbellites. In time all this would change with the vast immigrations from Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Ireland. But even today Baptists and Methodists command the largest numbers.

Those three groups today make up at least 23% of the US population...

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

In what reality is 23% a majority?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2017, 12:50:08 AM »
The Lutherans, Catholics, and Episcopalians have always had a major share of the population.

This is just inaccurate and I don't know where you folks are getting this idea. It's inaccurate today, but especially so at the time of the Great Revival, when the handful of Catholics were confined to Maryland and Lutheranism was as scarce as Judaism. Presbyterianism was the largest denomination, rapidly losing ground to the Baptists, and then the Great Revival itself quickly put Methodism as the largest denomination in America, a position it held for generations. Presbyterianism was further damaged by the schism that would become the Campbellites. In time all this would change with the vast immigrations from Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Ireland. But even today Baptists and Methodists command the largest numbers.

Those three groups today make up at least 23% of the US population...

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/


Quote
Largest U.S. Churches, 2012

The following table lists the largest church denominations in the United States by members. Figures are for 2012.
Denomination name   Members
(thousands)
The Roman Catholic Church    68,202
Southern Baptist Convention    16,136
United Methodist Church, The    7,679
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The    6,157
Church of God in Christ, The    5,499
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc    5,197
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America    4,274
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc    3,500
Assemblies of God    3,030
Presbyterian Church (USA)    2,675
African Methodist Episcopal Church    2,500
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America    2,500
Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS),    2,278
Episcopal Church    1,951

Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc Churches of Christ    1,800
Churches of Christ    1,639
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America   1,500
https://www.infoplease.com/world/religion/largest-us-churches-2012

Quote
Roughly 46.5% of Americans are Protestants, 20.8% are Catholics, 1.6% are Mormons (the name commonly used to refer to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), and 1.7% have affiliations with various other Christian denominations.
Religion in the United States - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

Quote
The U.S. ranks 10th in Lutherans. According to the website adherents.com, six percent of Americans are Lutheran
https://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2009/04/12/the-us-ranks-10th-in-lutherans/

Quote
Episcopal Women
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0195344529
the late Catherine M. Prelinger - 1996 - ‎Social Science
According to this study about 3 percent of the American population represented themselves to the Gallup poll as Episcopalians at the time of publication.

6 + 3 +20.8= 29.8%

I consider 30% to be a "major share".

Add on Orthodox at about 2% of the population and you are looking at 32%, almost 1 in 3.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2017, 12:54:39 AM »
I don't think the main problem is resources or man power or unity, though I would agree that more of these would produce better results. The central issue is that most Americans just wouldn't be interested; even keeping Americans who are already Orthodox engaged is difficult at this point. I don't think this is just an American problem--you see the same thing in Russia, Greece, etc., where various measures of devotion (e.g., regular church attendance, belief in fundamental doctrines) tend to be  low. The idea of throwing a bunch of resources and missionaries at America reminds me of those stories you read from time to time, in which a major record label or book publisher invests hundreds of thousands of dollars into a product, such that they have to sell 100,000 units just to break even, and the product ends up selling an absurdly low number like 417 units.

It sounds like you're basing your analysis on difficulty of keeping converts, which is agree is a very sound basis. But I wonder is the situation so dire with converts? I really don't know. Where do I find statistics of what proportion of converts we retain, and then how does that proportion compare to other denominations?

Let me be clear: unless we do know for a certainty that we cannot keep converts as well as other faiths can, then in my opinion this whole argument collapses into musings. We can speculate that Orthodoxy is just not for Americans, but to be frank strong evidence would be needed, among other reasons because it really hasn't been tried. Americans remain largely unfamiliar with Orthodoxy, much less convinced in their opinions of her. If we put a reading room in every town, a skete and cathedral in every city, took out television and radio ads regularly -- well, we haven't begun to approach activity of anything like this, so how can we dismiss ourselves outright as an impossible match for many Americans? I agree the brand is new. That in itself is not enough to prove investing in it must be a failure.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2017, 01:00:18 AM »
Perhaps we are forgetting the studies showing strong comparative tendencies of the Millennial generation to rediscover liturgical faiths including Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Perhaps we are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. There is the recent American habit of feeling dire. Some say leaders even cultivate this feeling to make the rest malleable to changes in the face of supposed crisis.

Not that massive success is at all needed in this case. The salvation of some is greater than the salvation of none or few.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 01:00:58 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2017, 01:08:54 AM »
Perhaps we are forgetting the studies showing strong comparative tendencies of the Millennial generation to rediscover liturgical faiths including Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Perhaps we are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. There is the recent American habit of feeling dire. Some say leaders even cultivate this feeling to make the rest malleable to changes in the face of supposed crisis.

Not that massive success is at all needed in this case. The salvation of some is greater than the salvation of none or few.

I think that church growth and preserving Orthodox traditions are realistic goals, even if there are challenges.

I don't like the idea of mixing Eastern Orthodoxy with "Low Church" style worship or other such things associated commonly with American religious culture, hoping it will help cause a massive surge in conversion, nor do I think such expected results are realistic.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 01:11:39 AM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #67 on: October 04, 2017, 01:21:57 AM »
The Lutherans, Catholics, and Episcopalians have always had a major share of the population.

This is just inaccurate and I don't know where you folks are getting this idea. It's inaccurate today, but especially so at the time of the Great Revival, when the handful of Catholics were confined to Maryland and Lutheranism was as scarce as Judaism. Presbyterianism was the largest denomination, rapidly losing ground to the Baptists, and then the Great Revival itself quickly put Methodism as the largest denomination in America, a position it held for generations. Presbyterianism was further damaged by the schism that would become the Campbellites. In time all this would change with the vast immigrations from Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Ireland. But even today Baptists and Methodists command the largest numbers.

Those three groups today make up at least 23% of the US population...

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

In what reality is 23% a majority?

As rakovsky has already said, Major is not the same as majority. Roughly a quarter of the populace is pretty significant. And if we go by the alternative numbers from rakovsky, it is even moreso.

I don't hold something against Muslims or anything, but at least according to the Peer Research Center, there are more Muslims in the USA than Orthodox. The same is true for Hindus and Buddhists. Surely we can do more to appeal to Americans than an entirely different religion.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 01:27:23 AM by Rohzek »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #68 on: October 04, 2017, 09:02:20 AM »
Quote from: Porter ODoran link=topic=72495.msg1487719#msg1487719

In what reality is 23% a majority?

As rakovsky has already said, Major is not the same as majority. Roughly a quarter of the populace is pretty significant. And if we go by the alternative numbers from rakovsky, it is even moreso.
I actually didn't intend "majority" when I said major share. I know that most Americans don't fall into those three groups, since we have so many churches in the US. The biggest groups that come to mind are Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, but I think Catholics rank up there high too.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 09:02:40 AM by rakovsky »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2017, 09:33:18 AM »
This is anecdotal and all, but those I know IRL who oppose or discount Orthodoxy don't know enough about the inside of the parish or the Liturgy to object to is as a whole.  If anyone I know has an issue with the Liturgy or parish interior, it is directly tied to praying to saints and icons.  Stated issues are it's too Catholic,"it's too ethnic, and a smattering of substantive issues that can be dumped into either dualism, total depravity, or authority.  The "too ethnic" usually ends up being because someone experienced friction with an individual who happened to be Orthodox, and so then a) all of Orthodoxy is this one ethnic group of this one individual and b) we don't like them.  And then just general ignorance and enclave mentality.  Another peripheral issue in my circle is Judaizing/Zionism and an aversion replacement theology.  Those that aren't suspicious are very "invisible church"-minded.  Not that we need to totally snub what DBH calls "American spirituality" or Anglican-looking parishes, but flinging the doors wide open to both will not magic away the arguments I've run across.  Maybe I happen to know people that represent a minority of Protestants, though.  One would hope it's generally as simple as co-opting spiritual exuberance and building more WR parishes.   :-\

I don't think preferring the Eastern vs. the Western rite should be seen as a confused cultural identity.  DBH's criticism seemed to focus on people who actually identify personally with a history that is not their own.  As if it were their ancestors, or themselves, even (and his story was about someone who offered this view unbidden).  This doesn't need to be expanded to criticize a person's preferences or sympathies--that is counterproductive to unity.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Sharbel

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2017, 10:22:09 PM »
If we are to believe converts to Catholicism don't "struggle with" the mass, why, again, are we to believe Protestant converts to Orthodoxy "struggle with" the liturgy and require something more Catholic?
We often see converts discovering a liturgical form of worship and it seems to quench a thirst that they didn't know how to satisfy.  Many of these converts who check out an Eastern liturgy are even more attracted to it, sometimes more than Latin Catholics.  Regardless, among the most difficult hurdles that the converts to Catholicism that I personally know had the liturgy was never one of them.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 10:26:09 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2017, 10:22:06 AM »
The "Westerners will take to the western rite liturgy" saying always seems to be really "we need to make the transition easier for five disaffected Episcopalians"
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2017, 10:27:03 AM »
The "Westerners will take to the western rite liturgy" saying always seems to be really "we need to make the transition easier for five disaffected Episcopalians"

In an American context, yes. Around here, traditional West European liturgy has become alien to a growing number of people. I think it was Alpo though who pointed that in some parts of Europe (e.g. Scandinavia) it is still normative.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2017, 10:52:12 AM »
In an American context, yes. Around here, traditional West European liturgy has become alien to a growing number of people. I think it was Alpo though who pointed that in some parts of Europe (e.g. Scandinavia) it is still normative.

Well, the main services of the Swedish and Finnish Lutheran churches are liturgical. But since about 2 or 3 % of all people attend "high mass" (that's the actually name of the Lutheran Sunday service there; högmässa in Swedish) on a given Sunday, and about 85% of all people never do, it also is rather alien to most people...

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2017, 11:44:10 AM »
I'm a naive idiot but I have to ask why can't these Serbian, Russian, Greek parishes in America just fold into communion with the OCA? I just don't understand why a foreign ethnic heritage enclave is so important over a unified Orthodox Church in America. The insularity probably won't last in the long run anyway.

If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2017, 12:01:37 PM »
I'm a naive idiot but I have to ask why can't these Serbian, Russian, Greek parishes in America just fold into communion with the OCA? I just don't understand why a foreign ethnic heritage enclave is so important over a unified Orthodox Church in America. The insularity probably won't last in the long run anyway.

If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2017, 12:13:48 PM »
In an American context, yes. Around here, traditional West European liturgy has become alien to a growing number of people. I think it was Alpo though who pointed that in some parts of Europe (e.g. Scandinavia) it is still normative.

Well, the main services of the Swedish and Finnish Lutheran churches are liturgical. But since about 2 or 3 % of all people attend "high mass" (that's the actually name of the Lutheran Sunday service there; högmässa in Swedish) on a given Sunday, and about 85% of all people never do, it also is rather alien to most people...

It's still the normative form of religion. If people think of "Christianity" they think of what their state churches do. And they do something like this:



And mostly speaking not this:

« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 12:15:19 PM by Alpo »
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2017, 12:13:05 AM »
I'm a naive idiot but I have to ask why can't these Serbian, Russian, Greek parishes in America just fold into communion with the OCA? I just don't understand why a foreign ethnic heritage enclave is so important over a unified Orthodox Church in America. The insularity probably won't last in the long run anyway.

If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.

As tho the OCA were not ethnic ... The rebranding seems to have affected some naive converts and outsiders, such as yourself, but in truth such a thing is only ever skin deep.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2017, 12:42:03 AM »
I'm a naive idiot but I have to ask why can't these Serbian, Russian, Greek parishes in America just fold into communion with the OCA? I just don't understand why a foreign ethnic heritage enclave is so important over a unified Orthodox Church in America. The insularity probably won't last in the long run anyway.

If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.

I was born in California and English is my only language, not just primary.

I have only gone to one OCA church and it was Russian (befitting its Metropolia roots).

The USA is not rooted in Czarist Russia. It is rooted in Hellenism as epitomized in the architecture of our capital and  our constitution.

Every American knows that churches have pews and organs.

I am sure that there or more empty arguments that can be made, but I have to go to bed.

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Offline augustin717

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2017, 01:40:27 AM »
How?

Or are you assuming the bulk of Americans are LCMS, Tridentine Catholic, or Anglo-Catholic?

This is much more-nearly our competition. Western Rite has no familiarity in such a context.
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Offline William T

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2017, 02:12:57 PM »
I'm a naive idiot but I have to ask why can't these Serbian, Russian, Greek parishes in America just fold into communion with the OCA? I just don't understand why a foreign ethnic heritage enclave is so important over a unified Orthodox Church in America. The insularity probably won't last in the long run anyway.

If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.

You're right it isn't 1879, and one probably shouldn't be using 19th century progressive cliches and empty jargon words like "ethnic enclaves", "insular", "fossilized" etc to frame complex social patterns and patterns, being prophetic about a future they can't possibly know (no matter how much Hegel they read) or think they have some mental control over anything like this, that's just hubris mixed with empty phrases.  If you are going up against such things you should recheck your premises and not use incanational cant like "bourgeois", "victims of false conscious", "insular", "ethnic", or psychologizing things you probably don't know about such as people wanting a "piece of their motherland".  On top of this you want to talk about capitalism vs communism, modern vs postmodern theology, lumping massive "ethnic" people into one easy group , meditating on essence vs energies, etc.

I'm pretty sure if I told you to perform open heart surgery on a man you would (rightfully) freak out, and here you are trying to wrap your mind around probably more complex problems and being a terrible simplifier of such things...this in itself will exacerbate any issue that exists even further or create new problems that shouldn't have been there in the first place.  Perhaps if nothing else, the entire development of things ought act as a bulwark and check against a certain type of frame of mind.

It's hard not see that there is a rather careless, very naive, or perhaps contemptous disregard of how things are, how things are valued, and how they organized, or some kind of "noble savaging" going on where simple peasants get a head pat by people more concerned about their salon culture, petty activisms, and parlor games.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 02:22:12 PM by William T »

Offline augustin717

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2017, 02:58:15 PM »
You're too harsh on Rob.
His take is probably one sided and a bit crude but he isn't wrong.  I'm thinking for instance of the re net power struggle in the Romanian diocese of OCA. The rhetoric is crude nationalism/folklorist. I've heard Serbs and Greeks express similar sentiments about their churches.
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Offline William T

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2017, 03:15:58 PM »
You're too harsh on Rob.
His take is probably one sided and a bit crude but he isn't wrong.  I'm thinking for instance of the re net power struggle in the Romanian diocese of OCA. The rhetoric is crude nationalism/folklorist. I've heard Serbs and Greeks express similar sentiments about their churches.

You're right, I actually didn't mean that to come out to sound harshly.  Looking back at that post it looks like I'm harping on him when I wanted my tone to be more of a "slow down a second here" mixed with "I've seen this before with 24 yr old college students"  kind of tone...and maybe hint that I am a little suspicious of the lecturer and some of the things I've seen out of Fordham lately (all of these things would have been unkown to me had I not looked up the word "Orthodoxy" on the internet 2 1/2 years, it's a very strange world) .  It's tough to organize thoughts like this on a forum.  It's  also hard to condense these things down into intelligible digestible bits  It's very difficult for me to see if these are very specific arguments, again, I think this is one of the inherent limitations of a forum.  I need to know what kind of access I may have to the topic at hand, and if maybe my mind is going "meta" on the topic.  I was thinking about trying to post something about this, but I'm not sure how to organize the topic.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 03:19:48 PM by William T »

Offline Sharbel

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2017, 07:14:36 PM »
If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.
Or perhaps it's this kind of cultural exclusivism and poverty, that underpins the notion of "assimilation", that drives families of immigrant origin to seek solace in the company of those who do not regard them as foreign and not belonging in America, unless they shed their ways and culture and language.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:15:26 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2017, 08:08:43 PM »
If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.
Or perhaps it's this kind of cultural exclusivism and poverty, that underpins the notion of "assimilation", that drives families of immigrant origin to seek solace in the company of those who do not regard them as foreign and not belonging in America, unless they shed their ways and culture and language.

But doesn't that just compound the problem? The policies of parishes ought to be dictated by needs, not by some form of ethnic pride. This isn't to say that parishes shouldn't cater to ethnic concerns insofar that say the majority of the parish speaks only Greek or Russian. We should not confuse means and ends.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2017, 10:36:37 AM »
If you are born in America you are American and English is your primary language. I get if you are just off the boat and want a piece of your motherland with you, but its not 1870 anymore.
Or perhaps it's this kind of cultural exclusivism and poverty, that underpins the notion of "assimilation", that drives families of immigrant origin to seek solace in the company of those who do not regard them as foreign and not belonging in America, unless they shed their ways and culture and language.

But doesn't that just compound the problem? The policies of parishes ought to be dictated by needs, not by some form of ethnic pride. This isn't to say that parishes shouldn't cater to ethnic concerns insofar that say the majority of the parish speaks only Greek or Russian. We should not confuse means and ends.
I agree, as the Church's mission is in the whole world.  But the choir needs to be preached to as well, lest it fall away as the Church seeks others, as it happened in the Roman Church.  That's why there's a place for the particularly ethnic character of a parish, which should indeed seek a balance to attract the general population, but not at the expense of whom sustains it and is its first reason of being. 

And, in my anecdotal experience, this happens naturally with time after the first generation, but the ethnic character always remains and it does not impede its mission.  I see newly established Orthodox parishes catering to new immigrant communities still pop up in areas of great recent influx, but I see Orthodox parishes catering to the wider community in areas where they've been established for a while.  It's both and, not either or.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2018, 01:32:37 PM »
For those interested in Prof. D.B. Hart's writings on evidence for God, there is a critical article in the New Republic by an atheist, who summarizes some of Hart's arguments and responds to them. I am interested in people's reactions to arguments for God. One of Hart's main ones seem to be the experience of one's relationship with God aas itself a proof.

Religious Believers' Favorite New Book Is a Failed Argument for God, By Jerry A. Coyne, April 16, 2014
https://newrepublic.com/article/117393/david-bentley-harts-experience-god-isnt-must-read-atheist
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Offline juliogb

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2018, 02:08:09 PM »
Quote
In my experience with Protestantism, hymns are a pretty core feature. I think developing an Orthodox liturgy that can accommodate some facets of their unique hymn culture would go a long way. And I don't see how that would necessarily water down the doctrine or the worship. Of course, they would also be singing the whole liturgy as well.

I don't know in the US, but here in Brazil, traditional protestant hymnody is dying, it is almost dead actually, some gospel musicians tryed to make modern arrangements in old hymns, but the result is terrible and cringy. Most of services in evangelicals churches today here (and I think in the US as well), are praise band, 15 minute long poor lyrics songs with worship teams making a lot of effort to look and sound like hillsong or chris tomlin, or some loud and chaotic pentecostal service with glossolalia and pastors that can't make a point without shouting at the mic.

And the situation is not better in catholic parishes as well, where the happy clappy dancing priests are like everywhere, or the typical marxist liberation theology priest that wants to mix novus ordo with indigenous rituals of war or beninese ritual drumming. So, as far as I know, lots and lots of christians in the west are completely unfamiliarized with high church and solemn liturgy, that's why I don't think a simplification of the Divine Liturgy or more WR parishes will increase converts, because simplified liturgy and anglican-like liturgy, no matter how simplified, is already too high church to average western christians.

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2018, 02:16:19 PM »
... simplified liturgy and anglican-like liturgy, no matter how simplified, is already too high church to average western christians.
+1
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2018, 02:37:20 PM »
... simplified liturgy and anglican-like liturgy, no matter how simplified, is already too high church to average western christians.
+1

Perhaps for Americans with a Low Church Protestant familyline. However there are other kinds of Western Christians too.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2018, 02:39:20 PM »
Perhaps for Americans with a Low Church Protestant familyline. However there are other kinds of Western Christians too.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2018, 03:49:32 PM »
... simplified liturgy and anglican-like liturgy, no matter how simplified, is already too high church to average western christians.
+1

Perhaps for Americans with a Low Church Protestant familyline. However there are other kinds of Western Christians too.

Yeah, but they're shrinking in numbers and influence all the time. Low Church has won the branding war, so to speak. The average person in the West, to the extent they think of High Church at all, thinks only of a catalog of pop culture cliches and caricatures of the Catholic Church.
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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2018, 05:45:10 PM »
For those interested in Prof. D.B. Hart's writings on evidence for God, there is a critical article in the New Republic by an atheist, who summarizes some of Hart's arguments and responds to them. I am interested in people's reactions to arguments for God. One of Hart's main ones seem to be the experience of one's relationship with God aas itself a proof.

Religious Believers' Favorite New Book Is a Failed Argument for God, By Jerry A. Coyne, April 16, 2014
https://newrepublic.com/article/117393/david-bentley-harts-experience-god-isnt-must-read-atheist

I don't dislike the book (in fact I've recommended it a couple times to people), but I agree with a number of the criticisms in the article. For example the author points out that DBH quite readily falls into a 'God of the gaps' kind of argumentation, which I think large chunks of the book--including his whole schpiel about consciousness--falls into.

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Re: American Orthodoxy/ies w/David Bentley Hart at Fordham
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2018, 06:57:10 PM »
For those interested in Prof. D.B. Hart's writings on evidence for God, there is a critical article in the New Republic by an atheist, who summarizes some of Hart's arguments and responds to them. I am interested in people's reactions to arguments for God. One of Hart's main ones seem to be the experience of one's relationship with God aas itself a proof.

Religious Believers' Favorite New Book Is a Failed Argument for God, By Jerry A. Coyne, April 16, 2014
https://newrepublic.com/article/117393/david-bentley-harts-experience-god-isnt-must-read-atheist

I don't dislike the book (in fact I've recommended it a couple times to people), but I agree with a number of the criticisms in the article. For example the author points out that DBH quite readily falls into a 'God of the gaps' kind of argumentation, which I think large chunks of the book--including his whole schpiel about consciousness--falls into.

I wonder though, how much that kind of argumentation is unavoidable when talking to atheists about certain things, ya know? As long some atheists insist on reality being "innocent of being theistic until proven guilty," then "well, it COULD be God, you don't know," winds up being the only reasonable response.

But I haven't read the book, so I don't know what Hart's arguments entail exactly.
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