Author Topic: Summing up  (Read 12001 times)

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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2017, 11:07:54 PM »
The shift in my understanding back to Catholicism was long before I left Orthodoxy; I left when it was easy to do so (the priest I was attached to suddenly left town, and no, I wasn't angry with him).

You're being less than honest here.  Clearly, you were deeply hurt by someone or perhaps a group of people of influence in (or connected in some way to) your Orthodox parish.   I seem to recall you making emotional comments on this board about the Orthodox communion being a "nasty, narrow little church". or words to that effect, shortly after you left Orthodoxy. I believe that this hurt may well have contributed to you posting this latest venture, which is, to say the least, an extremely provocative thread.  And no, I'm not happy that you were hurt so badly.

Quote
I don't expect the Orthodox to approve my use of Byzantine Orthodox practices now; I'm not claiming to be Orthodox or coming into your churches expecting to receive Communion because "we're really the same."

Except that you have consistently espoused the opinion that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are exactly the same thing:

IMO the Pope's role is the only real difference dividing what's sacramentally the same church. But both sides' hardliners are right that it's a doozy. The only way to union is for RCs to become WRO or Orthodox to become Greek Catholics. Ain't gonna happen, right?

This ecclesiology seems to run through your posts whether you are a  communicant of the Roman Catholic Church or a member of the Orthodox Church.  Except that recently you seem to have been saying something akin to  "Orthodoxy and Catholicism are the same thing, but Catholicism is way better" and have now moved on to "it's either Rome or the abyss."




« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:37:21 PM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2017, 11:30:19 PM »
Double post.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:32:40 PM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2017, 11:33:46 PM »
Quote
But regarding the papacy, the burden of proof is on Rome: the papacy evolved, not us.

The Orthodox "evolved" on contraception (and I know the counterclaim that we're hypocrites) and your take on divorce and remarriage was wrong even before the schism (sin was around before the schism; the point?).

Actually, you mean "OUR" take. The only reason the Latin West shifted on divorce and remarriage is because a certain Frankish emperor, after having 5 wives both dead & divorced, decided to rule unilaterally that it was wrong. Meanwhile, until the end of his life, he maintained himself a harem filled with about 5-7 concubines. You are the ones who are innovative in this regard. Not us.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2017, 02:02:33 AM »
The shift in my understanding back to Catholicism was long before I left Orthodoxy; I left when it was easy to do so (the priest I was attached to suddenly left town, and no, I wasn't angry with him).

You're being less than honest here.  Clearly, you were deeply hurt by someone or perhaps a group of people of influence in (or connected in some way to) your Orthodox parish.   I seem to recall you making emotional comments on this board about the Orthodox communion being a "nasty, narrow little church". or words to that effect, shortly after you left Orthodoxy. I believe that this hurt may well have contributed to you posting this latest venture, which is, to say the least, an extremely provocative thread.  And no, I'm not happy that you were hurt so badly.

Quote
I don't expect the Orthodox to approve my use of Byzantine Orthodox practices now; I'm not claiming to be Orthodox or coming into your churches expecting to receive Communion because "we're really the same."

Except that you have consistently espoused the opinion that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are exactly the same thing:

IMO the Pope's role is the only real difference dividing what's sacramentally the same church. But both sides' hardliners are right that it's a doozy. The only way to union is for RCs to become WRO or Orthodox to become Greek Catholics. Ain't gonna happen, right?

This ecclesiology seems to run through your posts whether you are a  communicant of the Roman Catholic Church or a member of the Orthodox Church.  Except that recently you seem to have been saying something akin to  "Orthodoxy and Catholicism are the same thing, but Catholicism is way better" and have now moved on to "it's either Rome or the abyss."

This is a valid point; some parishes will hurt you, as will some priests.  Ive experienced it myself.  It also happens in Catholicism.   Its not really a good reason to change denominations however, unless this abuse is systemic, for example, the various systems of social control imposed in cults like Scientology or even in Mormonism, which as a religion demands sacrifices from its adherents much more so than Orthodoxy, Catholicism or typical Protestant churches.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2017, 04:57:54 AM »
Pravoslavbob, your first guess is wrong: nobody in my Orthodox former parishes (there were two of them, one for many years) was particularly nasty. The current priest's wife/choirmistress at the second, longtime one will tell you I was noticeably depressed. My problem was and is with Orthodoxy, not with parish people. A religion that excludes Western Catholicism because of cultural chauvinism, a false accusation of heresy because of culture, is, I believe, nasty and narrow.

The true story in brief: ironically, what kept me nominally Orthodox for so/too long was I was attached to the longtime parish priest of the second place, a former/crypto-Catholic who grew up before Vatican II; he knew Orthodoxy's claim vs. Catholicism isn't true and wanted to come back but "my people need me" plus the pride that most Byzantine Catholics don't do the Byzantine Rite in its fullness like he could. He was my only real tie, so when he left, I did shortly afterwards. When he left, I didn't have to cover for him anymore, having to appear Orthodox in order to protect him from the Orthodox authorities. (He is now dead so that's no longer an issue.)

In 2007 Pope Benedict XVI removed all restrictions on the traditional Mass I usually go to (the other traditional Mass I go to, the Byzantine Liturgy, I attend once a month), and at the end of 2011 he implemented a reform/correction to the text of the modern English Mass so it is closer to its Latin original than before, better reflecting our teachings. I've been openly Catholic again since.

I did and do believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are really the same, which is what Catholicism teaches. We recognize your orders and Eucharist and we believe that doctrinally you are Catholicism as described by the first seven ecumenical councils. Because Orthodoxy hasn't had an eighth to proclaim anything anti-Catholic, unlike the Protestants' defined doctrines, we give Orthodox who aren't former Catholics the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean I go to your churches on Sunday expecting Communion; it means Catholicism and I believe reunion is extremely doable and we don't believe never-Catholic Orthodox are personally guilty of schism or heresy.

Because Catholicism gives never-Catholic Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, I'm not trying to get individual conversions from them (we quietly accept those but they're not our main objective in approaching the Orthodox). I'm only trying to give them something to think about, answering questions about the Catholic Church, in the hope, I admit unlikely, that one day all your bishops will agree to join us.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2017, 05:54:42 AM »
Orthodox doctrine is simply Catholicism as described in the first seven councils. Orthodox opinion is often nasty and narrow regarding Catholicism.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2017, 06:23:37 AM »
1. I don't think RCs teach two Holy Spirits, rather the teach a Holy Spirit who is "a bond of love between Father and Son", so not really a person in the Orthodox sense.

2. Pope Francis' post-synodal exhortation Amoris laetitia is getting closer to the Orthodox ikonomia concerning marriage. In other words: If we Orthodox are wrong on this, the RCC has a problem with its pope. And indeed, some RC theologians seem to think so, feeling the need to "correct" their infallible one through a public letter.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2017, 06:24:19 AM »
I'm only trying to give them something to think about, answering questions about the Catholic Church, in the hope, I admit unlikely, that one day all your bishops will agree to join us.

All bishops have to agree with one bishop (of Rome)? It's against the Creed; meaning of the word Καθολικὴν in Greek, جامعة in Arabic, соборная in Church Slavonic - i.e. Catholic, universal, conciliar - that only one bishops has the power over the Church.

You didn't say anything regarding my posts about the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church ;)


Orthodox doctrine is simply Catholicism as described in the first seven councils. Orthodox opinion is often nasty and narrow regarding Catholicism.

Orthodox is not only teaching of the councils. It's about all to live according to these teaching, to live these teachings. And Catholicism does not practice it. It's clear if you see the liturgical, fasting and sacramental praxis. And it's not about differences Western vs Eastern, beacause it has been always varied and that's ok.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2017, 06:50:30 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.

Dominika: Thank you for the report "on the ground" about Ukrainian Catholics in Poland being nationalistic, not something I defend.

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All bishops have to agree with one bishop (of Rome)?

More like the bishop of Rome has to agree with the unchanging Catholic faith, and the world's bishops must agree with his office (not necessarily the man) on that faith.

Quote
Orthodoxy is not only teaching of the councils. It's about all to live according to these teaching, to live these teachings.

I know; much of post-schism Orthodox opinion is anti-Catholic and of course I believe it's wrong. Because it's not doctrine, Catholicism gives it the benefit of the doubt.

Quote
And Catholicism does not practice it. It's clear if you see the liturgical, fasting and sacramental praxis. And it's not about differences Western vs Eastern, beacause it has been always varied and that's ok.


The second and third sentences seem to contradict but I understand you. I don't fast much. I can't. And I don't care what the Orthodox think of that, or on the other hand, because of economy (fine in matters like this that aren't doctrine, just rules), many of them probably don't either.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 06:51:59 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2017, 06:51:06 AM »
For anyone curious, the parish priest that the Young Fogey claims was yearning to return to Catholicism was Archimandrite Athanasy Mastalski. No, it is not true that the man was secretly yearning to become Catholic again.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #100 on: October 02, 2017, 06:54:29 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.

Do you admit you have a problem with your pope then?

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #101 on: October 02, 2017, 06:55:51 AM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.

There's no proof in print or online from Fr. Athanasy of course so you will believe what you will. Just know that although I say things you don't agree with and although I might be mistaken on some things, I will never lie to you.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2017, 06:58:56 AM »
I know; much of post-schism Orthodox opinion is anti-Catholic and of course I believe it's wrong. Because it's not doctrine, Catholicism gives it the benefit of the doubt.

Orthodox doctrine before and after 1054 is the same. We do follow St. Photios the Great, who died in 880.

We don't need to give Roman Catholicism the benefit of doubt. We simply and plainly admit that there is a wrong spirit in there. One who "proceeds from the Father and the Son".

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2017, 07:01:09 AM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.
So you say it's irrelevant if a pope has heretical opinions? Doesn't need need to believe in official doctrine in order to be a legitimate pope?


Btw, why do you think the RC doctrine on marriage is so great? To me, it is an abstraction not taking into account human weakness. Have you ever been married?

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2017, 07:16:37 AM »
Btw, why do you think the RC doctrine on marriage is so great? To me, it is an abstraction not taking into account human weakness. Have you ever been married?

And it's not forever, but only to death.
And even the way of receiign this sacrmaent is different: in Orthodoxy it's rather union and blesisng given by priest to 2 people willing it, while in Catholicism it's somehign mroe juidicila, giving the promise to each other and actually giving the sacrament to each other, that's sanctioned by priest.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2017, 08:09:39 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.

That is historically not true.

Quote
Epistola XXXVI. Si maritus cujus uxor in captivitatem fuerat abducta, alteram acceperit, revertente prima, secunda mulier debet excludi.

Innocentius Probo

[Col.0602B] Conturbatio procellae barbaricae facultati legum intulit casum. Nam bene constituto matrimonio inter Fortunium et Ursam captivitatis incursus fecerat naevum, nisi sancta religionis statuta providerent. Cum enim in captivitate praedicta Ursa mulier teneretur; aliud conjugium cum Restituta Fortunius memoratus inisse cognoscitur (34, q. 1 et 2, c. 2; Ivo p. 8, c. 245). Sed favore Domini reversa Ursa nos adiit, et nullo diffitente, uxorem se memorati perdocuit. Quare, domine fili merito illustris, statuimus, fide catholica suffragante, illud esse conjugium, quod erat primitus gratia divina fundatum; [Col.0603A] conventumque secundae mulieris, priore superstite, nec divortio ejecta, nullo pacto posse esse legitimum.

Letter 36. Whether a husband whose wife has been led into captivity and has married another woman should, with the first wife having returned, divorce the second wife.

Innocent to Probus

The confusion of the violent barbarian has brought a legal case before my power. For their attack has wrought a blight upon the good marriage between Fortanius and the captive Ursa, unless they have provided a holy statute of religion. Indeed, the woman Ursa was taken into the aforementioned captivity, Fortunius is known to have entered into another marriage with Restituta. But with the favor of the Lord, the returned Ursa came before us, and with no denial, proclaimed convincingly that she was the wife of times past. By which means, young illustrious lord with merit,  we have ruled, having favored the universal faith, that [first] marriage to stand, because it was formerly founded with divine grace, and that covenant with the second woman, as long as the first wife lives or is not divorced, cannot by any agreement be legitimate.

Pope Innocent I to Probus, Epistula 36, Patrologia Latina 20: 602A – 603A

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De his, qui adhibitam sibi uxorem reliquerunt et aliam sociaverunt. Nulli liceat, excepta causa fornicationis, adhibitam uxorem relinquere et deinde aliam copulare; alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio. Sin autem vir et uxor divertere pro sola religiosa inter se consenserint vita, nullatenus sine conscientia episocopi fiat, ut ab eo singulariter proviso constituantur loco. Nam uxore nolente aut altero eorum etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Concerning those men, who have divorced [their] married wives and marry another. Let no one, except for the cause of fornication, divorce their married wife and then marry another. Otherwise, it is suitable for the transgressor to be married to the former spouse. If however a man and wife consent to divorce between themselves for the sake of a monastic life, in no way shall it be so without the joint knowledge of the bishop, so that they may be stationed by him in a single prepared location. For [if] due to an unwilling wife or her husband, let it not be dissolved for the sake of the marriage.

Pope Eugenius II, Synod of Rome 826 AD, canon 36, MGH, Concilia aevi Karolini, 2.1: 582

« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 08:10:48 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2017, 10:23:11 AM »
I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

Are you thinking of...

Quote
The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful.

-- John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

Note how every time this is brought up, the Rome apologists who were beating their drum of "we haven't budged on contraception!" fall conspicuously silent.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2017, 11:01:41 AM »
I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

Are you thinking of...

Quote
The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful.

-- John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

Note how every time this is brought up, the Rome apologists who were beating their drum of "we haven't budged on contraception!" fall conspicuously silent.

Well, even they must enjoy sex...
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Person.  Woman.  Man.  Camera.  TV.

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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline Isaac14

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2017, 03:16:26 PM »
Mr. Fogey,

You keep harping on how the Catholic church is correct on the question of divorce/remarriage. From a theoretical standpoint, I get it. But having lived through divorce and, although I’m Orthodox, having obtained an annulment of my first marriage from a Catholic tribunal so that my now wife (who’s Catholic) could receive permission to marry me.

My experiences with both sides of this issue have led me to the firm conclusion that the only difference between the Orthodox and Catholics on the matter of divorce is that the Catholic Church goes to exceedingly great lengths to say that divorce isn’t divorce.

Very basically, my ex-wife ended our marriage by walking out and allowing for no means to achieve reconciliation. I was willing to do so, to try to sort things out and communicated that to her, but she gave no response. We were married as protestants, then had become Orthodox in the last year of that marriage.

In my case the basis for annulment was “grave lack of discretion” on my part at the time of the first marriage. Considering that my testimony to the Tribunal was that I understood and intended for that first marriage to be for life, there’s no lack of discretion on that point. This leaves me to understand my lack of discretion was being a poor judge of my ex-wife’s character. Even this leads to trouble, because depending on the character issue in question, someone’s ability to validly marry isn’t identifiable until after the fact. Not to mention, it leaves no room for the operation of mercy or grace in one’s life or in how we relate to others. And I’m not even getting into how thorough the process was; how my file, if printed, was probably 250-350 pages. Testimony was required from parents, friends, clergy, etc., etc., etc.

On the Orthodox side, it was a much less formal, but still thorough, process. Perhaps atypically, I was able to have a conversation with my Bishop about my first marriage, the civil divorce, and my intended wife. I also had a great deal of conversation (both in confession, and just in general) with my Priest. I know he and my Bishop also spoke on this issue. They ultimately judged that it was in my best interest (i.e. for my salvation) to be given permission to remarry.

I don’t think there are any of us Orthodox who would say divorce is ever a good thing. Personally, I think divorce is a tragedy and, in my case, reflective of my failings/sins and my ex-wife’s failings/sins. And even more so, the tragedy in broken marriage comes from the realization that marriage is an icon of Christ and his bride, the Church and we (or at least me) fall short reflecting that.

I know that Matthew 19:6 & Mark 10:9 are given as the reason that divorce is impossible. I would love for someone with a good knowledge of Greek to comment on whether “let no one separate” carries the meaning of either “man can not separate” or “To separate is to not reflect what Christ intends marriage to be, but doesn’t leave you hanging if it does happen.”

-Erik

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2017, 10:41:29 PM »
A religion that excludes Western Catholicism because of cultural chauvinism, a false accusation of heresy because of culture, is, I believe, nasty and narrow.
I agree.  If you find it, please, let us know so that we can avoid it too.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2017, 10:44:38 PM »
1. I don't think RCs teach two Holy Spirits, rather the teach a Holy Spirit who is "a bond of love between Father and Son", so not really a person in the Orthodox sense.
Worse yet.  If the Son is the result of the Father's love itself and the Holy Spirit is the result of the love between the Father and the Son, according to St. Augustine's formulation, then, love being an act of the will, both the Son and the Holy Spirit are willed into existence, making them creatures.  Of course, it could just be St. Augustine being himself and formulating extremely difficult ideas with a poetic license, but the Catholic Church actually teaches this.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #111 on: October 02, 2017, 10:44:56 PM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #112 on: October 02, 2017, 10:45:11 PM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2017, 12:24:18 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.

The principle of the development of doctrine was further expressed as a tenet of the Roman Catholic Church by St. Henry Newman.  This was a serious error on his part, and if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when", we will need the Roman pontiff to issue an encyclical rejecting the principle of the development of doctrine in favor of the alternative idea, the Orthodox idea, of one ancient Apostolic faith, unchanging in doctrine; all that changes is the means by which we proclaim the Gospel in response to various heresies and confusions, to address the ever-changing spiritual diseases of humanity.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2017, 03:30:20 AM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?

Care to expand a bit?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #115 on: October 03, 2017, 04:58:28 AM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2017, 08:36:14 AM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...

Increased piety would make unity harder, not easier. The best chance for unity is for both sides to be very lukewarm. Unless you got some emperor up your sleeve to enforce things?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #117 on: October 03, 2017, 09:11:24 AM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...
And you think a study conducted among the Orthodox would yield significantly better results? 
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #118 on: October 03, 2017, 09:22:41 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.

The principle of the development of doctrine was further expressed as a tenet of the Roman Catholic Church by St. Henry Newman.  This was a serious error on his part, and if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when", we will need the Roman pontiff to issue an encyclical rejecting the principle of the development of doctrine in favor of the alternative idea, the Orthodox idea, of one ancient Apostolic faith, unchanging in doctrine; all that changes is the means by which we proclaim the Gospel in response to various heresies and confusions, to address the ever-changing spiritual diseases of humanity.

The way I have heard it explained, I don’t think development of doctrine necessarily contradicts unchanging dogma.  The principles seem sound, but their “development” lead to a different path.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2017, 09:27:59 AM »
Right, Newman's idea was basically that some dogmas remained implicit in the faith but were elaborated through history as the need arose. The fact of such development is undeniable for all Christians, Orthodox included, even if some of the specific doctrines Newman was trying to trace (e.g. Papal supremacy) were in fact innovations.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #120 on: October 03, 2017, 09:31:43 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.

The principle of the development of doctrine was further expressed as a tenet of the Roman Catholic Church by St. Henry Newman.  This was a serious error on his part, and if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when", we will need the Roman pontiff to issue an encyclical rejecting the principle of the development of doctrine in favor of the alternative idea, the Orthodox idea, of one ancient Apostolic faith, unchanging in doctrine; all that changes is the means by which we proclaim the Gospel in response to various heresies and confusions, to address the ever-changing spiritual diseases of humanity.

The way I have heard it explained, I don’t think development of doctrine necessarily contradicts unchanging dogma.  The principles seem sound, but their “development” lead to a different path.

+1  Having read the documents by Newman I don't think he meant to go any further in 'developing doctrine' than, say, St. Vincent.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #121 on: October 03, 2017, 10:48:09 AM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #122 on: October 03, 2017, 10:30:11 PM »
Pravoslavbob, your first guess is wrong: nobody in my Orthodox former parishes (there were two of them, one for many years) was particularly nasty. The current priest's wife/choirmistress at the second, longtime one will tell you I was noticeably depressed. My problem was and is with Orthodoxy, not with parish people. A religion that excludes Western Catholicism because of cultural chauvinism, a false accusation of heresy because of culture, is, I believe, nasty and narrow.

The true story in brief: ironically, what kept me nominally Orthodox for so/too long was I was attached to the longtime parish priest of the second place, a former/crypto-Catholic who grew up before Vatican II; he knew Orthodoxy's claim vs. Catholicism isn't true and wanted to come back but "my people need me" plus the pride that most Byzantine Catholics don't do the Byzantine Rite in its fullness like he could. He was my only real tie, so when he left, I did shortly afterwards. When he left, I didn't have to cover for him anymore, having to appear Orthodox in order to protect him from the Orthodox authorities. (He is now dead so that's no longer an issue.)

In 2007 Pope Benedict XVI removed all restrictions on the traditional Mass I usually go to (the other traditional Mass I go to, the Byzantine Liturgy, I attend once a month), and at the end of 2011 he implemented a reform/correction to the text of the modern English Mass so it is closer to its Latin original than before, better reflecting our teachings. I've been openly Catholic again since.

I did and do believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are really the same, which is what Catholicism teaches. We recognize your orders and Eucharist and we believe that doctrinally you are Catholicism as described by the first seven ecumenical councils. Because Orthodoxy hasn't had an eighth to proclaim anything anti-Catholic, unlike the Protestants' defined doctrines, we give Orthodox who aren't former Catholics the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean I go to your churches on Sunday expecting Communion; it means Catholicism and I believe reunion is extremely doable and we don't believe never-Catholic Orthodox are personally guilty of schism or heresy.

Because Catholicism gives never-Catholic Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, I'm not trying to get individual conversions from them (we quietly accept those but they're not our main objective in approaching the Orthodox). I'm only trying to give them something to think about, answering questions about the Catholic Church, in the hope, I admit unlikely, that one day all your bishops will agree to join us.

I don't have time here to go into why your theology is wrong.  You didn't really address Dominika's point about the papacy anyway, so I'm not sure you would address any of the points I would care to make.  The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church.  I truly hope and pray that Rome and Orthodoxy will be united again some day, even though I don't think it likely.  But with God, all things are possible.


To "sum up", despite your protests to the contrary, what you are doing here is proselytizing  Orthodox Christians with your own personal version of Roman Catholicism.  This is contrary to how your own Church says its people should relate to the Orthodox.   It baffles me no end that you seem to think that you have unique insights on Christian culture, ecumenical relations etc. to "share" with others.

The Orthodox certainly can be unnecessarily rude and even sectarian in outlook;  there is no need or even an excuse for this any longer in many parts of the world, since historical reasons that made these qualities understandable have passed their "best before" dates.  But this doesn't have much to do with the Orthodox rejection of erroneous Roman Catholic beliefs.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 10:36:37 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #123 on: October 03, 2017, 10:47:12 PM »
That's okay if you think I'm wrong or didn't answer you well enough.

Your board, your church. So I can't post to discourage inquirers from leaving Catholicism. I respect you for not being relativists, taking your true-church claim seriously as we do ours, defending it. My posts' side info IDs me as Catholic; people can PM me with questions. I won't pester your people by starting PMs. My posts right now are about Western Rite Orthodoxy and aren't proselytism. I'm fascinated by what I think are alternative takes on Catholicism because on matters that are not doctrine, we can learn a thing or two from them (you).

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #124 on: October 03, 2017, 11:37:02 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy.
Have you really tried? Have you embraced it? Lived it? Including, actually, above all, the Holy Sacraments?

So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?

Seeking attention.

Bingo!

Your board, your church. So I can't post to discourage inquirers from leaving Catholicism. I respect you for not being relativists, taking your true-church claim seriously as we do ours, defending it. My posts' side info IDs me as Catholic; people can PM me with questions. I won't pester your people by starting PMs. My posts right now are about Western Rite Orthodoxy and aren't proselytism. I'm fascinated by what I think are alternative takes on Catholicism because on matters that are not doctrine, we can learn a thing or two from them (you).
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #125 on: October 04, 2017, 12:10:03 AM »
Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Now this is delicious irony.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #126 on: October 04, 2017, 10:09:14 AM »
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?
Care to expand a bit?

Amoris Laetitia and the Post-Modern Papacy of Pope Francis

Are the letters that Pope Francis writes affirming the interpretation of his writings by other bishops ex catedra or not?  Shrew Roman Catholics would deny it, for otherwise they'd have do admit that Pope Honorius was rightly anathematized by the Sixth Ecumenical Council.  But how couldn't Pope Francis be exercising his office when he confirms changes in the sacramental practice of local Churches?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 10:09:34 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #127 on: October 04, 2017, 10:10:41 AM »
Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Now this is delicious irony.

Ironic, but tragically true.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #128 on: October 04, 2017, 05:55:04 PM »
The recent signatures under the recent "correction" of Pope Francis concerning "Amoris Laetitia" shows that the FSSPX has been successful in enlarging the circle of critics beyond their own adherents. If conservative RCs become really convinced that Pope Francis is a heretic, will they elect an antipope? Bishop Bernard Fellay of the FSSPX would be an interesting choice. He is really serious about his faith, and at the same time he is rather diplomatic in his dealings with people and institutions.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #129 on: October 04, 2017, 06:04:17 PM »
The recent signatures under the recent "correction" of Pope Francis concerning "Amoris Laetitia" shows that the FSSPX has been successful in enlarging the circle of critics beyond their own adherents. If conservative RCs become really convinced that Pope Francis is a heretic, will they elect an antipope? Bishop Bernard Fellay of the FSSPX would be an interesting choice. He is really serious about his faith, and at the same time he is rather diplomatic in his dealings with people and institutions.
What would happen is that the critics would get big enough so that the cardinals would start to worry and then they would pressure P.Francis to change, or else he himself would see this. And if it got really bad, the cardinals could reject and depose him.

We are a very long way from that. Catholics are intense enough on the Pope's centrality and authority that it would be very hard for a huge percent of them to get together to make an anti-Pope.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #130 on: October 04, 2017, 07:06:19 PM »
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?
Care to expand a bit?

Amoris Laetitia and the Post-Modern Papacy of Pope Francis

Are the letters that Pope Francis writes affirming the interpretation of his writings by other bishops ex catedra or not?  Shrew Roman Catholics would deny it, for otherwise they'd have do admit that Pope Honorius was rightly anathematized by the Sixth Ecumenical Council.  But how couldn't Pope Francis be exercising his office when he confirms changes in the sacramental practice of local Churches?

Thanks.

Well, I guess as long as enough Catholics take fogey's "Water Department Head" point of view, they'll find always find a way to argue around anything the Pope does.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #131 on: October 04, 2017, 07:30:07 PM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...

There are substantial, well known problems with people not going to confession even annually in the Orthodox church.

As far as the "pray at least once a day" bit, I expect that could be warped because a Catholic priest, who is obliged to pray the divine office, might confuse that with ex tempore prayers for other purposes.  We also have impious or marginal priests in our churches, for example, priests and bishops who were originally installed by the KGB, Securitate, etc, in order to monitor the church for the Communist regime and who may or may not have developed an authentic faith since then.  Some might have stuck around simply because they like the feeling of power and get a rush when people kiss their hand, on a par with whatever glories they otherwise hoped to receive from their comrade superiors in the secret police.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #132 on: October 04, 2017, 09:19:59 PM »
Bishop Bernard Fellay of the FSSPX would be an interesting choice. He is really serious about his faith, and at the same time he is rather diplomatic in his dealings with people and institutions.
Though never interested in the SSPX, over the years I too came to admire the irenic tone of Bp. Fellay.  But that's as much as can say about him.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #133 on: October 04, 2017, 09:24:13 PM »
What would happen is that the critics would get big enough so that the cardinals would start to worry and then they would pressure P.Francis to change, or else he himself would see this. And if it got really bad, the cardinals could reject and depose him.  We are a very long way from that. Catholics are intense enough on the Pope's centrality and authority that it would be very hard for a huge percent of them to get together to make an anti-Pope.
But historically that's exactly what divisive popes caused, schisms in the Roman Church by the election of anti-popes.  Unfortunately, the history of the many schisms in the West is scant, since they are a source of shame and pain to the Roman Church, which perhaps keeps historians away to investigate the context that led to them.  So it's difficult to assess the current situation, never forgetting the lingering damage caused by VII, either way.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #134 on: October 04, 2017, 09:27:16 PM »
As far as the "pray at least once a day" bit, I expect that could be warped because a Catholic priest, who is obliged to pray the divine office, might confuse that with ex tempore prayers for other purposes.
A Roman Catholic diocesan priest prays five canonical hours and usually one mass almost every day.  He could hardly miss them a prayers.  However, it's a known fact, whispered in chanceries and rectories, that many priests do not pray the breviary as they should, often by dispensation from their bishop.
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