Author Topic: Summing up  (Read 9813 times)

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2017, 11:11:13 PM »
Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?



Oh that is epic.  Fully optimized for use on the Private Forums.

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Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2017, 12:17:43 AM »
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I can't follow you there since the Roman Catholic priests and nuns and laity tortured and raped my family.

If that's true, they weren't following our teachings.

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...marriages sometimes decades old weren't even real.

Because sometimes they weren't.

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So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?

Talking about our shared love of Orthodox culture while being upfront about being Catholic and explaining why.

Of course I respect an Orthodox forum defending Orthodoxy so I'll say again I'm not here to get individual conversions in order to break up your families, etc. My goal is to bring you all into the Catholic Church together (that would happen in the extremely unlikely event all your bishops chose to join; the question's just about moot) and then not disturb the rite, a perfectly good one I still use.

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What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Do you mean my main objection to Orthodoxy? The notion that the Catholic faith of ultimately all my ancestors (English, German, and Spanish) is false because it's not the same culture as the Orthodox, when it's clear to me it's the same faith; true. I love Orthodox culture but "no sale."

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The Great Schism made that [generational Western Orthodoxy] a little difficult.

No more so than the western Ukrainians and the Melkites being in the Catholic Church for centuries, the Melkites often not latinizing. Something that would impress me would be an analogue among the Orthodox: what if, after the schism, you'd managed to convince a region of Belgium or Portugal, for example, to become Orthodox, which they would remain for centuries to this day with an authentically Western expression of that (Romanesque paintings and Benedictine monks Gregorian-chanting Masses)?

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Culture though shouldn't trump truth for you.

Even if Orthodoxy developed the lasting, authentically Western expression I suggest, I still wouldn't join because of divorce and remarriage and because of contraception, and, most important, I still wouldn't disbelieve that the papal office has only defended the full apostolic faith.

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Seeking attention.

 ;D Don't we all? Seriously, to share our interest in Orthodox culture and, within the forum's bounds defending its true-church claim (I understand your objection to many of my posts), explain the Catholic Church when there are questions.

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...liberalizing Catholic bishops (which I notice have somehow not driven you into sedevacantism).

Because I understand Catholic teaching well enough not to panic like that. I'll get back to this.

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By the same measure isn't that what Byzcath is? I could just as easily argue that it's idolatrous for all these cultures to insist on their sui iuris special privileges and not just shut up and learn Latin.

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.

(Officially I am not a Byzantine Catholic but I won't rule out becoming one. I'm in no hurry to do so because I'm not out to prove anything against the Roman Rite nor assume a new identity by so doing.)

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What about the Old Catholics? What about the Sedes?

Glad you asked! The Old Catholics would impress me if, again, they held the fort on divorce and remarriage and on contraception. Also, by their fruits shall ye know them. I don't see teeming vocations (to the priesthood and to monasticism) and charitable work from them like I do historically from the real Catholics. If they held the truth on the issues I named, had a generational presence in their European homeland and the United States, and better still, retained the Tridentine Mass, likely often done in the vernacular, again, like with the Orthodoxy I described in the original post, they would challenge my faith. But it just isn't so. Old Catholicism never took off and it liberalized. It's mostly ex-Catholic, not generational, it's mostly clergy, and it's basically a European rump sect, Dutch Episcopalians.

The sedevacantist scenario can happen. It never has. I don't like Pope Francis as a person. That doesn't matter. Dumb remarks on a plane aren't ex cathedra teaching. The Pope has a narrowly defined job of defending Catholic teaching. If he stops doing that job, he's no longer Pope. And that's not for me to decide. My guess is an ecclesiastical second-in-command would declare the see vacant. Really, if it happened, it wouldn't affect me. I'm a layman (I was a reader). The Pope is a name the priest whispers in the Roman Canon (anaphora at Mass) or chants a couple of times in the Byzantine Rite. The faith goes on.

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I'd be interested in hearing what caused you to have these opinions.

Thank you. I've been trying to do that but it's been stepping on toes here as this is, after all, an Orthodox board.

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Your "Rome or the abyss" line got me thinking: are you implying that Orthodoxy is a sort of Protestantism?

No, simply alluding to Catholicism's true-church claim. If I thought Orthodoxy was Protestant I wouldn't be wearing a three-bar crucifix, have an icon corner where I do prostrations and say Byzantine Rite prayers, or go to a church that uses the Byzantine Rite.

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If so, why do our various schisms and camps bother you more than Rome's? Or is my assessment of what you said incorrect?

Do they? I rarely think about those.

As for the rest in this thread I think Deacon Lance has answered for me.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2017, 12:21:00 AM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
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Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
The Union of Brest was at the end of the 16th century. About 350 years later West Ukraine was under Russia.

That is not "a short time later". Jesus was persecuted by Romans in 33 AD. Then in 313 Christianity was Rome's official religion. You can't say that was soon afterwards or that Romans beliefs in 313 were about as loyal to Jesus as they were 300 years before. They were polar opposites.

Same thing with Jihad. You can't say Muslims being fiercely loyal to Islam in 1050 ad proves that Egypt was fiercely loyal back in 700 ad and wasn't being forcibly converted.

350 years is not "soon afterwards". It's 7 generations or more later after thorough Catholic rule.

No Polish conquest=no mass conversion to Rome in Ukraine.

It's that simple.
My own Church has nothing to do with the Polish conquest.  Mukachevo was under Hungarian rule, Calvinist at that.  The union was at the instigation of the priests who feared Calvinist expansion.
The mass of Eastern Catholic churches went from being Orthodox under Orthodox rule to Orthodox under Catholic rule, and then forced to convert. If your church in Hungarian Mukachevo didn't go through this, it doesn't disprove what happened to most of the Eastern Catholics who converted after the conquest.

Mukachevo's population is 86,000.
By contrast, Lvov's population is 724,000 and Brest's population is 329,000.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2017, 12:37:13 AM »
This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic
Unfortunately, I'm not much aware of the history of Orthodoxy in Poland, but there were many Orthodox martyrs in Poland from Roman Catholics during the XX century. St. Maxim Sandowicz is probably the most famous case, but even Metropolitan Basil of blessed memory (last primate of the Polish Orthodox) witnessed a massacre inside his church.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2017, 12:38:40 AM »
Was Sandowicz killed for being Orthodox or for allegedly spying for Russia?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 12:39:17 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2017, 12:54:01 AM »
Quote from: the young fogey
I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.

Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one? If one wants to be a Byzcath, they can't respond to the priest in Latin or cross themselves the Latin way in Church, can they? You dislike Orthodoxy for insisting on its own culture but allow the Byzcath to do the same.

I'm sorry WRO is so tiny, but that isn't because there's some nefarious scheme of bishops sabotaging it so it really doesn't make sense to blame Orthodoxy as a religion, that's just the way it happened. Maybe things will change in a generation or two.

Quote from: the young fogey
Even if Orthodoxy developed the lasting, authentically Western expression I suggest, I still wouldn't join because of divorce and remarriage and because of contraception, and, most important, I still wouldn't disbelieve that the papal office has only defended the full apostolic faith.

1. Why do you care so much what goes on in other people's bedrooms? That's creepy. Let God judge them (and the bishops shepherding them).

2. Where's the obsession with ecumenism? What kind of reactionary are you?

Quote from: the young fogey
and, most important, I still wouldn't disbelieve that the papal office has only defended the full apostolic faith.

Well, you sure didn't mention that in the OP. Kind of a more important issue than smells and bells and other people's goolies, I'd say. Has this whole thread been a

« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 12:57:17 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2017, 01:06:47 AM »
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Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one?

Because the church agrees that the Orthodox rite is entirely Catholic; we don't insist on uniformity.

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You dislike Orthodoxy for insisting on its own culture.

No, I don't believe in Orthodoxy because it insists on excluding other cultures. I love its culture.

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That's just the way it happened.

Would you accept that from a Catholic defending bishops treating Byzantine Catholics in America like garbage? I hope not!

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1. Why do you care so much what goes on in other people's bedrooms? That's creepy. Let God judge them (and the bishops shepherding them).

2. Where's the obsession with ecumenism? What kind of reactionary are you?

1. is pretty much the refrain of modern American Protestantism and secularism; I say "modern" because until the last century all Christians opposed contraception and Protestants agreed with us on divorce. As for 2., I'm more interested in the truth and Christian love than pride in being reactionary.

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Well, you sure didn't mention that in the OP. Kind of a more important issue than smells and bells and other people's goolies, I'd say.

Been too upfront for some here about being Catholic so obviously I'm not trying to deceive.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2017, 01:26:37 AM »
Was Sandowicz killed for being Orthodox or for allegedly spying for Russia?
Why else do you think he was executed for "Russophilia"?  :o
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2017, 01:40:49 AM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month...
You call this trying Orthodoxy?  No, you most definitely did not try Orthodoxy.
He was chrismated Orthodox, belonged to a parish for many years, and was ordained a reader.  He tried it.
OK, fair enough.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2017, 01:45:36 AM »
I would also think the resurgence of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and Slovakia after Communism fell should serve as proof.
You have to acknowledge that the situation was more complex than that.  After the forced merger with the Orthodox under Soviet rule, it cannot be denied that nationalism may have been a factor in this resurgence.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2017, 02:02:31 AM »
Quote
Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one?
Because the church agrees that the Orthodox rite is entirely Catholic; we don't insist on uniformity.
Ritually, just for half a century and quite imperfectly.  Not to mention like Pope FI changing the CCEO a couple of years ago without any consultation.  Uniformity is as Roman as spaghetti.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2017, 03:12:14 AM »
I tried Orthodoxy...

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.

+1

Good to know you found somewhere you fit in. 

I can't follow you there since the Roman Catholic priests and nuns and laity tortured and raped my family.



Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2017, 04:32:10 AM »
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Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one?

Because the church agrees that the Orthodox rite is entirely Catholic; we don't insist on uniformity.

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You dislike Orthodoxy for insisting on its own culture.

As I understand it, it's more about doctrinal correctness than culture, something Catholics certainly understand (see, Chinese Rites Controversy). Apparently the Orthodox aren't completely opposed to other cultures, though, or else how would the Liturgy ever have been translated into any other language than the most ancient ones.

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That's just the way it happened.

Would you accept that from a Catholic defending bishops treating Byzantine Catholics in America like garbage? I hope not!

That would be a specious defense because no bishop is trying to kill the WRO that I know of (maybe in ROCOR, but not in all of Orthodoxy). But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?

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1. Why do you care so much what goes on in other people's bedrooms? That's creepy. Let God judge them (and the bishops shepherding them).

2. Where's the obsession with ecumenism? What kind of reactionary are you?

1. is pretty much the refrain of modern American Protestantism and secularism; I say "modern" because until the last century all Christians opposed contraception and Protestants agreed with us on divorce.

I'm not sure I buy your history but my point is not that remarriage and contraception are good or that you have to agree with them. Just that it's kind of pointless to be so obsessed with pastoral decisions that don't concern you that you walk. If the Catholic Church embraced the Orthodox viewpoint on these things tomorrow what would you do, kill yourself?

As for 2., I'm more interested in the truth and Christian love than pride in being reactionary.

Alice the Antiecumenist says that just means you're more concerned with the world's definition of love and being loved by the world than you are with the truth and real love of God. She says that you and your media whore Water Office Head are a perfect pair.

Been too upfront for some here about being Catholic so obviously I'm not trying to deceive.

The OP makes it sound like sex and culture are the only things keeping you out of Orthodoxy. Seems to me it looked just like the same kind of thread that plenty of Catholics and others teetering on the edge of conversion, going back and forth and looking for a reason to swim the Bosporus, put out there.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody replying to those folks just assumes that they're still super duper enthusiastic about Papal Supremacy.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2017, 06:35:25 AM »
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Why else do you think he was executed for "Russophilia"?

I'm no supporter of World War I but such executions for espionage happen in wartime. It might not have really been about religion.

Quote
Ritually, just for half a century and quite imperfectly.  Not to mention like Pope FI changing the CCEO a couple of years ago without any consultation.  Uniformity is as Roman as spaghetti.

That would have been news to St. Pius X, for example, who approved the Russian Catholic Church with the famous line "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" (not more, not less, not other) than Russian Orthodox practice.

But anyway, if you're as set on leaving the church as you sound, you won't let facts get in your way. You've found a good place online for moral support. Your will be done. I think I've told you the risk. What would you be giving up your Maronite Rite for, its Syriac parent or Byzantine Orthodoxy?

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Just that it's kind of pointless to be so obsessed with pastoral decisions that don't concern you that you walk. If the Catholic Church embraced the Orthodox viewpoint on these things tomorrow what would you do, kill yourself?

Something that embraces untruth on principle can't be the church. Kill myself? If Christianity turned out to be false, which Catholicism being false would mean, so, for example, if Orthodoxy were the truth about Christianity, that would be an option theoretically. Or I'd try Buddhism, a nice philosophy and practice except it doesn't answer ultimate questions.

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Alice the Antiecumenist says that just means you're more concerned with the world's definition of love and being loved by the world than you are with the truth and real love of God. She says that you and your media whore Water Office Head are a perfect pair.

Yep, that's me; changing my views to fit into secular society.  ;D Your game is slipping if you think that's good bait.

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The OP makes it sound like sex and culture are the only things keeping you out of Orthodoxy. Seems to me it looked just like the same kind of thread that plenty of Catholics and others teetering on the edge of conversion, going back and forth and looking for a reason to swim the Bosporus, put out there.

More like the opposite; to tell teetering Catholics (whose business is still my business; I don't post in order to bother cradle Orthodox) they leave at their own risk and that they can have the best of Orthodoxy and even get to know the Orthodox in so doing if they stay put.

The sex-and-culture point of the original post is more a debating point; if such and such were true it would challenge my faith. You and I know they're not true of Orthodoxy (except the Orthodox used to agree with us on contraception) so the question's moot.

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I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody replying to those folks just assumes that they're still super duper enthusiastic about Papal Supremacy.

Or, hence the water-department analogy, papal supremacy doesn't mean what you think.

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But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?

Which is what bigoted Roman Rite clergy 80 years ago thought of Catholics from eastern Slovakia having clerical marriage; in other words, maybe you're just baiting me but you're making like it really was okay for them to treat these Catholics badly.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2017, 06:42:11 AM »
My goal is to bring you all into the Catholic Church together (that would happen in the extremely unlikely event all your bishops chose to join; the question's just about moot) and then not disturb the rite, a perfectly good one I still use.
Rite come from the faith and express it. That's why you always feel in Eastern Catholic churches (even not so latinised) that's not Orthodox. The Orthodoxy is not about symbols.

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic
Unfortunately, I'm not much aware of the history of Orthodoxy in Poland, but there were many Orthodox martyrs in Poland from Roman Catholics during the XX century. St. Maxim Sandowicz is probably the most famous case, but even Metropolitan Basil of blessed memory (last primate of the Polish Orthodox) witnessed a massacre inside his church.

Exactly. For example, st. Bazyli Martysz (his reliquis are at my parish), that was the Polish Orthodox chaplain, was murdered for being an Orthodox priest, despite national orders and his children that also had an impact to Polish culture and history. His son was fighting freedom of Poland in the famous (and very important, emotional for us) battle of Monte Cassino,His daugheter, a famous Polish singer and actress.

I would also think the resurgence of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and Slovakia after Communism fell should serve as proof.
You have to acknowledge that the situation was more complex than that.  After the forced merger with the Orthodox under Soviet rule, it cannot be denied that nationalism may have been a factor in this resurgence.
+1
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2017, 07:40:23 AM »
Quote
Rite come from the faith and express it. That's why you always feel in Eastern Catholic churches (even not so latinised) that's not Orthodox. The Orthodoxy is not about symbols.

I know what you mean. A temptation for Catholics who fall in love with the Byzantine Rite (I've seen it with convert friends in person and over and over online) is to get fed up with the latinizations most Slavic Byzantine Catholics prefer, and the latter people aren't interested in the Orthodox, and leave to become "the real thing." I say that while Byzantine culture is good, it's still not the whole faith; some things, such as acknowledging that Latin Catholicism is grace-filled, even if a historic enemy practices it (Poles vs. Ukrainians, Serbs vs. Croats), and truth according to logic about divorce and remarriage and about contraception, are more important.

That said, my typical American Ukrainian Catholic part-time parish is delatinized enough (over the objections of at least a few parishioners) that I dare say many American Slavic Orthodox such as older OCA and ACROD, whose families were Catholic two or three generations ago, would feel at home, as I do at many of their parishes, which is why those Slavic schisms in America are heartbreaking for me (traveling in upstate Pennsylvania, I've been to some of those old churches). Culturally and, we believe, sacramentally they are still very much a part of us.

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So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

Remembering meeting Archbishop Vsevolod of the Ukrainian Orthodox in Chicago, born in Poland, the son of an Orthodox priest, my feeling is he didn't hate anyone. The nicest bishop I've met was one of yours.

Quote
After the forced merger with the Orthodox under Soviet rule, it cannot be denied that nationalism may have been a factor in this resurgence.

I agree. But the older American-born people I worship with aren't that nationalistic this way. They identify with it but they're American; their first language is Ukrainian but with their local American (Philadelphia) accent and they usually speak local American English now. They grew up in Chester, Pennsylvania, and don't identify with the Orthodox at all, even though the Orthodox and their churches were right alongside them; they knew each other.

As often happens in these situations, I am more interested in the Orthodox than they are and identify partly with the Orthodox (!!) while they don't, but this time I'm definitely staying put.

By the way, in America, both the Slavic Byzantine Catholics and their relatives, literally, who "returned to Orthodoxy" via the OCA, ACROD, and Ukrainian Orthodoxy, are slowly dying out. My part-time parish is a merger of two failed parishes.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 07:50:37 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2017, 09:28:26 AM »
Quote
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

I mean in this context:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.


Of course, it's not about all Greek Catholic Ukrainians in Poland, but about not a small group.

1. The way of calling their Church in talks or writing by themselves: "Our Greek Catholic faith"/"Our Greek Catholic Church" or "Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Faith"/Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church" (not: "Our Catholic faith"/"The Catholic Church"), there is a strong emphasis on the word "our". You can even hear 'Our Greek Catholic language"/"Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic language".

2. This Church is rather exclusive for Ukrainas, well, plus Lemkos, but in their opinion Lemkos are not (so)separate ethnic group (while in the Polish Orthodox Church we have speical parishes and priests for Lemkos). Polish people (e.g traditional Catholics looking for better liturgical practices than at their parishes) are treated very suspiciously; when I was going from time to time to one of their parish, I was lucky actually only because I'm also Serbian. As fare I know, in the whoel world they have active only one active mission in Asia; well, it was a few years ago, mabye now they do more such things.

3. Church solemnities are connected to the Ukrainian natioanl ideas; for example, when they took this year the chapel that had been used by them and Orthodox on the Holy Mount Jawor in Poland (now the Polish Orthodox Church can't use it, we have service on the altar under a tent), they organised one week (or something like that) after Orthodox pilgrimage for the saints Peter and Paul feasts a kind of religious-national demonastration.

4. After the services, at least at parish in Warsaw, there were (are?) not only cultural, but also political meetings.

5. Of course, the best option to see and feel it enterly is to attend a service and talk to these people.


Edit: maybe it's because of the fact, that they're always between. Living in Poland, but being Ukrainians (now probaly most of belivers of this Church in Poland are new immigrants, but 5-10 years ago they're old immigration plus some cradles). They're not Orthodox, but they're not Latins. They have fasts more severe than Latins, but very light in comparison to Orthodox. They soemtiems use komboskini, but they also practice the western usage of rosary, some typical latin feasts and so n. They sing soem paralitugical Orthodox songs, but they're not Orthodox. They do kneelign in mometns typical for Latins, despite having Byzantine rite.
I remember my mother entering one Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church "It's completely Catholic. I know, they're Greek Catholics, but it's so Catholic". And under the term "Catholic" she meant "Latin(ised)". That they're not original for both sides (Orthodox and Roman Catholics).

« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:35:02 AM by Dominika »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2017, 09:36:23 AM »
Dominika, that's interesting. Are there any videos of Greek Catholic liturgies in Poland?

Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2017, 10:16:04 AM »
Ah, I forgot to mention Отці Підгорецькі (Fathers of Pidhore) that found Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church and anathemised all Catholic bishops ( you can watch some videos of it).

It's clearly against this:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.

And over years these Fathers had an impact for many believers of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics Church (mainly in Ukraine). Now I don't know, how much they're influential.

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Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2017, 10:22:06 AM »
Dominika, that's interesting. Are there any videos of Greek Catholic liturgies in Poland?

Yes, mainly from Pascha and Nativity:

Warsaw

Wrocław

Jarosław
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2017, 10:49:22 AM »
Dominika, that's interesting. Are there any videos of Greek Catholic liturgies in Poland?

Yes, mainly from Pascha and Nativity:

Warsaw

Wrocław

Jarosław

Thanks a lot... I had a brief look and the first two just "feel wrong" to me. The last one is ok, except for the missing beard.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2017, 01:26:19 PM »
Quote
Just that it's kind of pointless to be so obsessed with pastoral decisions that don't concern you that you walk. If the Catholic Church embraced the Orthodox viewpoint on these things tomorrow what would you do, kill yourself?

Something that embraces untruth on principle can't be the church. Kill myself? If Christianity turned out to be false, which Catholicism being false would mean, so, for example, if Orthodoxy were the truth about Christianity, that would be an option theoretically. Or I'd try Buddhism, a nice philosophy and practice except it doesn't answer ultimate questions.

Quote
Alice the Antiecumenist says that just means you're more concerned with the world's definition of love and being loved by the world than you are with the truth and real love of God. She says that you and your media whore Water Office Head are a perfect pair.

Yep, that's me; changing my views to fit into secular society.  ;D Your game is slipping if you think that's good bait.

You're missing my point (perhaps my fault). If remarriage and contraception are such an obsession that you're willing to walk from a whole church over them, then ecumenism in the RCC probably should (consistently, logically) be too. The opposition seem to go hand in hand for most other tradies. The lack of it in you looks hypocritical.

Quote
The OP makes it sound like sex and culture are the only things keeping you out of Orthodoxy. Seems to me it looked just like the same kind of thread that plenty of Catholics and others teetering on the edge of conversion, going back and forth and looking for a reason to swim the Bosporus, put out there.

More like the opposite; to tell teetering Catholics (whose business is still my business; I don't post in order to bother cradle Orthodox) they leave at their own risk and that they can have the best of Orthodoxy and even get to know the Orthodox in so doing if they stay put.

The sex-and-culture point of the original post is more a debating point; if such and such were true it would challenge my faith. You and I know they're not true of Orthodoxy (except the Orthodox used to agree with us on contraception) so the question's moot.

Ok, fine.

Quote
I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody replying to those folks just assumes that they're still super duper enthusiastic about Papal Supremacy.

Or, hence the water-department analogy, papal supremacy doesn't mean what you think.

Not that that analogy's gone over without controversy here, but alright.

Quote
But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?

Which is what bigoted Roman Rite clergy 80 years ago thought of Catholics from eastern Slovakia having clerical marriage; in other words, maybe you're just baiting me but you're making like it really was okay for them to treat these Catholics badly.

I don't think it was ok, no. I think that one could argue that pressuring a group to change is ok if their cultural practice is theologically or morally wrong, like they thought clerical marriage was and some EOs seem to think a lot of Latin practices are. Do you think Pope Clement XI was a bigot for siding against the Jesuits in the Chinese Rites Controversy?

I'm surprised no one argues that Pius XII was being a compromising modernist for walking that one back a couple centuries later.
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2017, 01:59:07 PM »
Quote
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

I mean in this context:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.


Of course, it's not about all Greek Catholic Ukrainians in Poland, but about not a small group.

1. The way of calling their Church in talks or writing by themselves: "Our Greek Catholic faith"/"Our Greek Catholic Church" or "Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Faith"/Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church" (not: "Our Catholic faith"/"The Catholic Church"), there is a strong emphasis on the word "our". You can even hear 'Our Greek Catholic language"/"Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic language".

2. This Church is rather exclusive for Ukrainas, well, plus Lemkos, but in their opinion Lemkos are not (so)separate ethnic group (while in the Polish Orthodox Church we have speical parishes and priests for Lemkos). Polish people (e.g traditional Catholics looking for better liturgical practices than at their parishes) are treated very suspiciously; when I was going from time to time to one of their parish, I was lucky actually only because I'm also Serbian. As fare I know, in the whoel world they have active only one active mission in Asia; well, it was a few years ago, mabye now they do more such things.

3. Church solemnities are connected to the Ukrainian natioanl ideas; for example, when they took this year the chapel that had been used by them and Orthodox on the Holy Mount Jawor in Poland (now the Polish Orthodox Church can't use it, we have service on the altar under a tent), they organised one week (or something like that) after Orthodox pilgrimage for the saints Peter and Paul feasts a kind of religious-national demonastration.

4. After the services, at least at parish in Warsaw, there were (are?) not only cultural, but also political meetings.

5. Of course, the best option to see and feel it enterly is to attend a service and talk to these people.


Edit: maybe it's because of the fact, that they're always between. Living in Poland, but being Ukrainians (now probaly most of belivers of this Church in Poland are new immigrants, but 5-10 years ago they're old immigration plus some cradles). They're not Orthodox, but they're not Latins. They have fasts more severe than Latins, but very light in comparison to Orthodox. They soemtiems use komboskini, but they also practice the western usage of rosary, some typical latin feasts and so n. They sing soem paralitugical Orthodox songs, but they're not Orthodox. They do kneelign in mometns typical for Latins, despite having Byzantine rite.
I remember my mother entering one Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church "It's completely Catholic. I know, they're Greek Catholics, but it's so Catholic". And under the term "Catholic" she meant "Latin(ised)". That they're not original for both sides (Orthodox and Roman Catholics).

Comments in general to this thread:

Dominika's lived experience should be a nice wake up call for the Roman apologist.   Somehow though it seems he prefers to combine his limited local impressions with an even more limited experience of the milieu of these people he has taken up with. 

He also does not register that the Roman Catholic church in the Americas, the actual place in which he resides, was in collusion with the respective governments to commit genocide on Amer-Indian people.  The governments let the priests and nuns do whatever they wanted to those children, and they killed, raped and tortured them.  They would loan them out to other pedophiles in the community to be gang raped.  There are people who witnessed their 'classmates' or inmates being thrown out of second story windows by nuns, killing them. 

Indian boarding school system was the most horrifying display of utter perversity I've ever encountered sanctioned by the Roman Catholic church and the governments across the United States and Canada.  That's no small thing or isolated incident.  I wonder what God thinks about priests and nuns raping and killing children? 

Fogey states:
Quote
"But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?"
This is to what he declares loyalty, his actual home church is made up of these people and we can easily see it today with all the lawsuits against the local parishes.  Somehow Rome protects itself in many of these cases.  Sometimes the local governments pass statute of limitations laws to help the Roman Catholic church avoid lawsuits.  We can see it around the world in places like Ireland with the mass burial of children in homes for unwed mothers.  We can see it through their policy of selling children of poor unwed mothers for profit.

That doesn't concern him at all though.  He is more worried that someone, somewhere might be making responsible choices about their family, i.e. using birth control as a married couple, or that someone didn't pay the Roman Catholic church to erase their first marriage before marrying again.

If he is NOT primarily basing his decision on these factors, then his OP is disingenuous and he is trolling an Orthodox site to entertain himself.   

The more he writes, the more clear it becomes that he is basing his faith on what some people far away did or did not do, but he has no idea really about these people and their culture, attitudes, etc. 

That form of thinking is dream like, delusional and very typical of USA people who have a tendency to create and join random splinter groups derived from disaffected European religious problems. I see this in some Orthodox converts as well, the glomming onto a foreign culture as an aspect of religiosity. 

This is becoming a more common USA theme as the culture becomes more impoverished and fragmented with an almost purely materialist based society.   A lot of people realize that the Protestant work ethic life developed out of the Industrial Age is very unfulfilling.

It's a good idea for him to just stay where he is at if he is happy there, but it does look like he has painted himself into a corner with regard to religion.

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2017, 04:18:20 PM »
The Catholic Church allows divorce and remarriage. They just do it with more sophistry and logical circumlocutions. Young Fogey already admitted that the Orthodox discipline on divorce is pre-schism, so he is showing his Latin chauvinism here, despite his protestations to the contrary.

The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation. Rome's apologists then try to cover this contradiction with some hand-waving about "natural law." But spacing sexy-time based on a calendar and mucus tests is just as artificial as a latex barrier or coitus interruptus.

And seriously if you're so opposed to contraception you should lose the moustache and hat.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:19:40 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2017, 04:21:02 PM »
Quote
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

I mean in this context:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.


Of course, it's not about all Greek Catholic Ukrainians in Poland, but about not a small group.

1. The way of calling their Church in talks or writing by themselves: "Our Greek Catholic faith"/"Our Greek Catholic Church" or "Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Faith"/Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church" (not: "Our Catholic faith"/"The Catholic Church"), there is a strong emphasis on the word "our". You can even hear 'Our Greek Catholic language"/"Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic language".

2. This Church is rather exclusive for Ukrainas, well, plus Lemkos, but in their opinion Lemkos are not (so)separate ethnic group (while in the Polish Orthodox Church we have speical parishes and priests for Lemkos). Polish people (e.g traditional Catholics looking for better liturgical practices than at their parishes) are treated very suspiciously; when I was going from time to time to one of their parish, I was lucky actually only because I'm also Serbian. As fare I know, in the whoel world they have active only one active mission in Asia; well, it was a few years ago, mabye now they do more such things.

3. Church solemnities are connected to the Ukrainian natioanl ideas; for example, when they took this year the chapel that had been used by them and Orthodox on the Holy Mount Jawor in Poland (now the Polish Orthodox Church can't use it, we have service on the altar under a tent), they organised one week (or something like that) after Orthodox pilgrimage for the saints Peter and Paul feasts a kind of religious-national demonastration.

4. After the services, at least at parish in Warsaw, there were (are?) not only cultural, but also political meetings.

5. Of course, the best option to see and feel it enterly is to attend a service and talk to these people.


Edit: maybe it's because of the fact, that they're always between. Living in Poland, but being Ukrainians (now probaly most of belivers of this Church in Poland are new immigrants, but 5-10 years ago they're old immigration plus some cradles). They're not Orthodox, but they're not Latins. They have fasts more severe than Latins, but very light in comparison to Orthodox. They soemtiems use komboskini, but they also practice the western usage of rosary, some typical latin feasts and so n. They sing soem paralitugical Orthodox songs, but they're not Orthodox. They do kneelign in mometns typical for Latins, despite having Byzantine rite.
I remember my mother entering one Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church "It's completely Catholic. I know, they're Greek Catholics, but it's so Catholic". And under the term "Catholic" she meant "Latin(ised)". That they're not original for both sides (Orthodox and Roman Catholics).

Comments in general to this thread:

Dominika's lived experience should be a nice wake up call for the Roman apologist.   Somehow though it seems he prefers to combine his limited local impressions with an even more limited experience of the milieu of these people he has taken up with. 

He also does not register that the Roman Catholic church in the Americas, the actual place in which he resides, was in collusion with the respective governments to commit genocide on Amer-Indian people.  The governments let the priests and nuns do whatever they wanted to those children, and they killed, raped and tortured them.  They would loan them out to other pedophiles in the community to be gang raped.  There are people who witnessed their 'classmates' or inmates being thrown out of second story windows by nuns, killing them. 

Indian boarding school system was the most horrifying display of utter perversity I've ever encountered sanctioned by the Roman Catholic church and the governments across the United States and Canada.  That's no small thing or isolated incident.  I wonder what God thinks about priests and nuns raping and killing children?

Yes, the boarding school system is unforgivable, I've read about it too (and the enormities in Ireland). But I don't think it's really a gotcha against the RCC because I'm quite sure if you dig far enough you can also find dirt like that about the Orthodox, St. Innocent's Academy in Kodiak for just one example. Not on the same scale, sure, but just as stomach turning.

I've also read claims that the Southern Baptist Convention has more sex abuse claims than the Catholic Church right now. Child molestation is a problem everywhere (synagogues, public schools, neighborhoods near military bases...)

Fogey states:
Quote
"But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?"
This is a quote by me, not Fogey. And I meant "kill" in a metaphorical way, just to be clear.

Example of a cultural practice that has been killed and with good reason--Chinese foot binding. Not that I think any Latin liturgical practice is remotely as bad as foot binding but then, I'm not an Orthodox bishop.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2017, 04:27:59 PM »
The Catholic Church allows divorce and remarriage. They just do it with more sophistry and logical circumlocutions.

I think this argument has already been made here. I doubt you're going to prove it to fogey without death by infinite specific examples.

Young Fogey already admitted that the Orthodox discipline on divorce is pre-schism, so he is showing his Latin chauvinism here, despite his protestations to the contrary.

Was it universal within the East, though?

The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation.

I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

And seriously if you're so opposed to contraception you should lose the moustache and hat.

So thaaaaat's why all Mario ever gets from Peach is cake...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:29:05 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2017, 04:50:11 PM »
I don't expect Mr Fogey to be convinced. He is here as a propagandist, not for dialogue. I am content that others will see the incoherence of his position.

I don't think one needs a slew of examples to prove the inherent silliness of granting divorces and pretending they're not divorces, or marrying people and then pretending you didn't marry them. The Latin system is nonsense both in theory and practice, and will probably not survive this papacy in its current form.

I don't think any marriage discipline was universal anywhere. Both the Latin and Eastern Orthodox systems are not especially ancient.

And yes, St Augustine would be one of many fathers east and west who would consider NFP a kind of fornication.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:50:38 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2017, 05:02:56 PM »
Well, I'll at least say that the typical reason for an annulment that I see given (somebody lied about wanting kids) doesn't sound to me like it could actually be all that common but then, I'm not married.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2017, 05:38:05 PM »
I think I recall you saying that you don't mind the apparent modernism promoted by the Vatican, especially Pope Francis, as the faith continues to live on regardless. Considering how Rome has now cast itself in the role of being the tentpole for a large tent of wildly different traditions, a la Anglican Communion, why aren't you worried that Rome to go in the same direction as Canterbury? (The main Anglican Communion lacking the majority of traditionalists these days).

Do you think that the neocatechumenal way and other similar movements are redeemable? Why or why not?

What has made you comfortable with the theology of the Pope of Rome's position undergoing development?
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2017, 05:54:53 PM »
The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation.

I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.
Don't know about that, but would not be surprised.
More importantly though, I think SSPX, and I am fairly certain that Michaelites and sedevacantists, also reject NFP. So arguably NFP is indeed a post-Vatican II innovation.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2017, 05:57:20 PM »
The Catholic Church allows divorce and remarriage. They just do it with more sophistry and logical circumlocutions. Young Fogey already admitted that the Orthodox discipline on divorce is pre-schism, so he is showing his Latin chauvinism here, despite his protestations to the contrary.

And just to add to this, there are plenty of Latin Fathers who approved of divorce and remarriage under circumstances similar to the Eastern position. The current Catholic position is more an imposition of Charlemagne throughout the Frankish Church, uncritically adopting St. Augustine's position (which he himself cast doubt on in his Retractions) while simultaneously ignoring the vast array of evidence of granting dispensation in both practice and canon law.

I wanna say we've covered this evidence for Fogey before, but I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 05:58:29 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2017, 06:07:09 PM »
The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation.

I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.
Don't know about that, but would not be surprised.
More importantly though, I think SSPX, and I am fairly certain that Michaelites and sedevacantists, also reject NFP. So arguably NFP is indeed a post-Vatican II innovation.
Correct: The problem of Natural Family Planning - SSPX
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2017, 06:13:23 PM »
I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

Are you thinking of...

Quote
The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful.

-- John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2017, 07:48:19 PM »
Quote
Ritually, just for half a century and quite imperfectly.  Not to mention like Pope FI changing the CCEO a couple of years ago without any consultation.  Uniformity is as Roman as spaghetti.
That would have been news to St. Pius X, for example, who approved the Russian Catholic Church with the famous line "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" (not more, not less, not other) than Russian Orthodox practice.
What one pope would have thought about one event is irrelevant.  The actions of popes in general towards Eastern Catholics have been nothing short of ecclesial tyranny.  Only after VII has the Vatican tried to curb its instincts to thwart the identity of particular Churches, yet every now and then it shows that it still bears its old colors.  These are the facts, very present to all Eastern Catholics close to the leaders of their Churches, whether at the local, eparchical or metropolitan on patriarchal levels.

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But anyway, if you're as set on leaving the church as you sound, you won't let facts get in your way. You've found a good place online for moral support. Your will be done. I think I've told you the risk. What would you be giving up your Maronite Rite for, its Syriac parent or Byzantine Orthodoxy?
What moves me is the Truth as taught by the Eastern Orthodox Church, closer to the teachings of the Maronite Church than those of the Roman Church.  Unfortunately, the only Orthodox Church, Syriac, to share the liturgy of St. James with us is not Chalcedonian (AFAIK), and this is just too much for me to process in addition to a conversion from Catholic to Orthodox.  I'll miss the liturgy of the Brother of the Lord tremendously, but the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, himself formerly a bishop of Antioch, is dear to me as well.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2017, 08:08:36 PM »
The sedevacantist scenario can happen. It never has. I don't like Pope Francis as a person. That doesn't matter. Dumb remarks on a plane aren't ex cathedra teaching. The Pope has a narrowly defined job of defending Catholic teaching. If he stops doing that job, he's no longer Pope. And that's not for me to decide. My guess is an ecclesiastical second-in-command would declare the see vacant. Really, if it happened, it wouldn't affect me. I'm a layman (I was a reader). The Pope is a name the priest whispers in the Roman Canon (anaphora at Mass) or chants a couple of times in the Byzantine Rite. The faith goes on.
Who is the 2nd in command of the Catholic Church?  Is he recognized by the pope?  Is he identified in canon law?  Is he also infallible to point out that an infallible pope has fallibly fallen into heresy? 

But what good is an infallible pope when he can go around trashing Holy Tradition and the faithful, causing scandal and disunity, as if like the Lord intended, as long as he doesn't "sit down"?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:09:58 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2017, 08:21:49 PM »
Quote
Considering how Rome has now cast itself in the role of being the tentpole for a large tent of wildly different traditions, a la Anglican Communion...

Has it? I see one set of teachings and many cultures, plus some who dissent from the teachings, not Rome's fault.

Quote
...why aren't you worried that Rome to go in the same direction as Canterbury? (The main Anglican Communion lacking the majority of traditionalists these days).

Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Quote
Do you think that the neocatechumenal way and other similar movements are redeemable? Why or why not?

I'm fine with them if they accept our teachings and they don't get in the way of me being old-fashioned high-church liturgically.

Quote
What has made you comfortable with the theology of the Pope of Rome's position undergoing development?

Indefectibility, infallibility, and non-contradiction.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:23:54 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2017, 08:30:30 PM »
Quote
Considering how Rome has now cast itself in the role of being the tentpole for a large tent of wildly different traditions, a la Anglican Communion...

Has it? I see one set of teachings and many cultures, plus some who dissent from the teachings, not Rome's fault.

Quote
...why aren't you worried that Rome to go in the same direction as Canterbury? (The main Anglican Communion lacking the majority of traditionalists these days).

Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Quote
Do you think that the neocatechumenal way and other similar movements are redeemable? Why or why not?

I'm fine with them if they accept our teachings and they don't get in the way of me being old-fashioned high-church liturgically.

Quote
What has made you comfortable with the theology of the Pope of Rome's position undergoing development?

Indefectibility, infallibility, and non-contradiction.
With all due respect, you're begging the question regarding Rome's "indefectibility, infallibility, and non-contradiction." What I am more interested in knowing is why you are comfortable believing that when it hasn't been a given throughout Christian history that the Bishop of Rome (when speaking ex cathedra, etc., etc.) was infallible.

So allow me to rephrase my one question, and then I'll revisit the others: What made you comfortable with the development of the Roman papacy? Any historical events and works of theology that led you to be comfortable with it? Any sort of argument you found convincing?
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2017, 08:36:27 PM »
Because in all that development, I see that the Pope has defended the essentials: God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images in worship.

By the way, development of doctrine isn't our doctrine, just an idea of John Henry Cardinal Newman that Catholicism allows.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:36:43 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2017, 08:39:36 PM »
the Trinity,
To you your trinity, and to us, ours. Not the same thing though.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2017, 08:42:20 PM »
Because in all that development, I see that the Pope has defended the essentials: God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images in worship.

By the way, development of doctrine isn't our doctrine, just an idea of John Henry Cardinal Newman that Catholicism allows.
Again though you're begging the question. You're assuming that Rome has defended these things, when many (including myself) would question the idea that Rome has defended the role of bishops and the Mass/Divine Liturgy. Assuming the Pope got all these things right, and therefore that he is to be followed, doesn't seem like sound logic to me. Was there something specifically regarding the development of the papacy you found convincing? That is something I think would be most illuminating for us to understand your decision to be in communion with Rome.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:44:54 PM by thenerdpaul »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2017, 09:03:09 PM »
Quote
To you your trinity, and to us, ours. Not the same thing though.

I expected that. The Byzantine Orthodox see us the way they used to see the Oriental Orthodox and vice versa, basically as not really Christian but like the old Arian Church, etc., sort of Mormons who claim to have apostolic bishops, etc. Obviously I disagree: Rome doesn't teach two Holy Spirits (one from the Father, one from the Son)/four Persons, etc.

Quote
Again though you're begging the question. You're assuming that Rome has defended these things, when many (including myself) would question the idea that Rome has defended the role of bishops and the Mass/Divine Liturgy.


The historical record: the first Protestants ranted against us for insisting on those things. You might be repeating the claim that the Orthodox view of those things is completely different from ours. Again, unsurprisingly, I disagree.

Quote
Was there something specifically regarding the development of the papacy you found convincing? That is something I think would be most illuminating for us to understand your decision to be in communion with Rome.

I find no good reason not to be communion with Rome and no good reason to deny that my English, German, and Spanish ancestors in the Middle Ages were true apostolic Christians.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2017, 09:13:42 PM »
Quote
To you your trinity, and to us, ours. Not the same thing though.

I expected that. The Byzantine Orthodox see us the way they used to see the Oriental Orthodox and vice versa, basically as not really Christian but like the old Arian Church, etc., sort of Mormons who claim to have apostolic bishops, etc. Obviously I disagree: Rome doesn't teach two Holy Spirits (one from the Father, one from the Son)/four Persons, etc.

Quote
Again though you're begging the question. You're assuming that Rome has defended these things, when many (including myself) would question the idea that Rome has defended the role of bishops and the Mass/Divine Liturgy.


The historical record: the first Protestants ranted against us for insisting on those things. You might be repeating the claim that the Orthodox view of those things is completely different from ours. Again, unsurprisingly, I disagree.

Quote
Was there something specifically regarding the development of the papacy you found convincing? That is something I think would be most illuminating for us to understand your decision to be in communion with Rome.

I find no good reason not to be communion with Rome and no good reason to deny that my English, German, and Spanish ancestors in the Middle Ages were true apostolic Christians.
On a side note, I don't think anyone has accused Rome of believing in two Holy Spirits. But moving on.

I get what you're saying regarding the Protestants, but at the end of the day they are to be rejected as they taught innovations. It's a made-up faith(s), as you said. But regarding the papacy, the burden of proof is on Rome: the papacy evolved, not us. So using the Protestant comparison doesn't really work. No-one is denying that the west's Christianity was real, but what we do question is individual developments within that. You keep saying stuff but you're not explaining your thought process, and that's what I keep trying to get you to say.

Again: What made you comfortable with the developments of the Roman papacy?

This shouldn't be too hard for you to explain, as clearly there was a shift in your understanding of things when you left Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:14:26 PM by thenerdpaul »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2017, 09:33:05 PM »
Quote
But regarding the papacy, the burden of proof is on Rome: the papacy evolved, not us.

The Orthodox "evolved" on contraception (and I know the counterclaim that we're hypocrites) and your take on divorce and remarriage was wrong even before the schism (sin was around before the schism; the point?).

Quote
You keep saying stuff but you're not explaining your thought process, and that's what I keep trying to get you to say.

Maybe I'm not bright enough to understand the question; I thought I answered you.

There is a set of essentials. Rome has always defended them, so the developments of the papacy are fine. The Orthodox claim we got those essentials wrong at some point when what really happened is the Pope went from being in the Christianized Roman Empire to being outside it, so the empire wrongly concluded that he, the French, the English, the Germans, et al. were no longer in the church, not even with true baptism per se.

Quote
This shouldn't be too hard for you to explain, as clearly there was a shift in your understanding of things when you left Orthodoxy.

The shift in my understanding back to Catholicism was long before I left Orthodoxy; I left when it was easy to do so (the priest I was attached to suddenly left town, and no, I wasn't angry with him).

I don't expect the Orthodox to approve my use of Byzantine Orthodox practices now; I'm not claiming to be Orthodox or coming into your churches expecting to receive Communion because "we're really the same." I just thought that my getting into the phronema by using the same prayers as you (as Deacon Lance and other Byzantine Catholics do) gives me some insight that other conservative Catholics might not have so it counts for something.

Again I'm thinking in terms of all your bishops agreeing to become Catholic and I also acknowledge that this will probably never happen.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2017, 10:25:41 PM »
Maybe I'm not bright

Best thing you said thus far
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2017, 10:56:07 PM »
Cool!
Be easy, por favor (in English: "please"), Mor Ephrem. Be your inner Christian.

I have an inner Trucker, too, btw. He's unemployed, but he tries to keep busy.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:00:14 PM by mcarmichael »
Rubber ducky, you're the one.