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Offline The young fogey

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Summing up
« on: September 30, 2017, 09:43:18 AM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month. If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed; it would challenge my faith.

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2017, 11:07:16 AM »
Cool!
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2017, 11:10:35 AM »
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.

Why bother with shade, when you can have the outer darkness? ::)
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2017, 11:16:42 AM »

The mid. century British "theologian" pop writers were overhyped and offer no basis for rigorous or interesting thought.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 11:19:54 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2017, 11:39:18 AM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2017, 11:49:22 AM »

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2017, 12:15:40 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy...

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.

Good to know you found somewhere you fit in. 

I can't follow you there since the Roman Catholic priests and nuns and laity tortured and raped my family.

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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2017, 12:21:42 PM »
Quote from: The young fogey
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce
Rome does too, but plays a name-game and pretends marriages sometimes decades old weren't even real.

Quote from: The young fogey
held the fort against contraception
I'll admit that it is sad that us Orthodox Christians could do much better in this regard. But so could Francis and many other Roman Catholic bishops.

Quote from: The young fogey
and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it
The irony is strong with this one. But this has been pointed out numerous times, and I'm afraid you're still repeating this meme as a valid critique.

Quote from: The young fogey
if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression
The Great Schism made that a little difficult.

Quote from: The young fogey
Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition
In this area I happen to agree with you. Culture though shouldn't trump truth for you. (Again, note the irony in your earlier critique).

Quote from: The young fogey
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.
LOL.

Quote from: The young fogey
Protestantism is a made-up faith.
True. So what though? Most here would probably agree with you on this particular point.
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2017, 01:19:27 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy.
Have you really tried? Have you embraced it? Lived it? Including, actually, above all, the Holy Sacraments?

So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2017, 02:06:01 PM »
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed;
What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:08:15 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2017, 02:07:06 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy.
Have you really tried? Have you embraced it? Lived it? Including, actually, above all, the Holy Sacraments?

So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2017, 02:25:54 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month. If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception,

Isn't this kind of a case of
Quote from: Romans 14:4
"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? To his own lord he standeth or falleth. And he shall stand: for God is able to make him stand."

Especially given the preponderance of liberalizing Catholic bishops (which I notice have somehow not driven you into sedevacantism). Why not focus on your own faith and let God sort the bishops, remarried, and users of contraception out?

and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it,

By the same measure isn't that what Byzcath is? I could just as easily argue that it's idolatrous for all these cultures to insist on their sui iuris special privileges and not just shut up and learn Latin.

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.

What about the Old Catholics? What about the Sedes?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2017, 02:27:54 PM »
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed;
What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?

Good point.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2017, 02:36:43 PM »
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed;
What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
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Online WPM

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 02:38:32 PM »
The question of 'why be Orthodox?' what does it mean? etc.
The first 5 books of the Bible.

Offline thenerdpaul

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:55:42 PM by thenerdpaul »
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2017, 03:02:10 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2017, 03:05:05 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month...
You call this trying Orthodoxy?  No, you most definitely did not try Orthodoxy.

Quote from: The young fogey
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.
The more distant a community puts itself from the faith of the Apostles, through either development or reform of doctrine, it just wanders away. 
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2017, 03:10:34 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.

Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 03:16:58 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2017, 03:20:02 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 03:23:33 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month...
You call this trying Orthodoxy?  No, you most definitely did not try Orthodoxy.


He was chrismated Orthodox, belonged to a parish for many years, and was ordained a reader.  He tried it.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 03:28:53 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty. 
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 03:29:30 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.

Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
No he recognizes the Latin bishops treated us like garbage.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 03:30:44 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty.
Uh, no. That would be the opposite of what I was looking for. You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 03:34:28 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 03:34:42 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 03:47:11 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty.
Uh, no. That would be the opposite of what I was looking for. You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
Sorry, I thought you questioning when and how Greek Catholics converted in America.  Here you go:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-ussrs-catholic-martyrs-suffered-but-they-suffered-for-god-21120

I would also think the resurgence of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and Slovakia after Communism fell should serve as proof.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 03:49:45 PM »
You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
The NerdPaul,

My understanding is that under Joseph Stalin's rule, there was a general suppression of religion, and Stalin killed or imprisoned numerous Eastern Orthodox and Catholic priests. IIRC, Eastern Catholicism was banned, and so the Eastern Catholics and their churches de facto had to either join the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox, which were still officially recognized by the government.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic, so I don't think it's proof that the Eastern Catholics "developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time". Many North African Muslims could be very loyal to Islam during the Crusades, but I doubt they were as loyal 100 years after the Arab Conquest. Besides, since there were millions of ECs before WWII, then even if there were thousands of martyrs as Deacon Lance wrote, isn't it doubtful statistically that most Eastern Catholics refused to join the RC and EO churches and were martyred?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 03:51:33 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 03:51:46 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2017, 03:57:57 PM »
You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
The NerdPaul,

My understanding is that under Joseph Stalin's rule, there was a general suppression of religion, and Stalin killed or imprisoned numerous Eastern Orthodox and Catholic priests. IIRC, Eastern Catholicism was banned, and so the Eastern Catholics and their churches de facto had to either join the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox, which were still officially recognized by the government.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic, so I don't think it's proof that the Eastern Catholics "developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time". Many North African Muslims could be very loyal to Islam during the Crusades, but I doubt they were as loyal 100 years after the Arab Conquest. Besides, since there were millions of ECs before WWII, then even if there were thousands of martyrs as Deacon Lance wrote, isn't it doubtful statistically that most Eastern Catholics refused to join the RC and EO churches and were martyred?
No, it's not doubtful at all, in fact it is rather believable that this would happen under Stalin's regime. But I wasn't able to find a source online, hence the reason I asked for it. And it has since been provided.
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 03:59:58 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.

But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 04:05:35 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.

Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
No he recognizes the Latin bishops treated us like garbage.

In order to force you to give up your cultural idolatry. Call it tough love.


Again, this is not my opinion, just what I think fogey's position reduces down to. If the Orthodox are byz-olaters, then Bishop Ireland should be his hero.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2017, 04:14:42 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 04:18:15 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2017, 04:31:41 PM »
No, it's not doubtful at all, in fact it is rather believable that this would happen under Stalin's regime. But I wasn't able to find a source online, hence the reason I asked for it. And it has since been provided.
I know what you mean, and the source shows that there was persecution, which is very wrong. But in order to show that they were fiercely loyal to Eastern Catholicism over Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, statistics would be helpful, like how many of all Greek Catholics were persecuted, was there another factor than religion for the persecution, like cooperation with the Nazis, etc.

To give an example, in the Jewish and Armenian Holocausts, the Jews and Armenians killed number in the millions, a big majority of their population in the countries affected. Or to give another example, after living under Muslim rule for 1200 years, we can say that the 5-10% of Christians living in Arab countries have to be fiercely loyal to hang on to their faith. But in the case of Ukraine today, IIRC about 1/4-1/3 of Ukrainians are Eastern Catholic, which is somewhere around what it was before WWII. I'm not saying there was minimal persecution, I just think statistics would be helpful.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 04:37:05 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2017, 06:19:22 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.

But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
Came back?  The Eparchy of Chelms was liquidated by the Tsar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Chełm_Eparchy
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2017, 06:26:25 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2017, 06:44:21 PM »
Anyway, if I may, I would like to return this thread somewhat to the original topic.

At the end of the day, OP, you did join Orthodoxy for a time and participated in it at a substantive level. I disagree with you, but I'd be interested in hearing what caused to to have these opinions. Your "Rome or the abyss" line got me thinking: are you implying that Orthodoxy is a sort of Protestantism? If so, why do our various schisms and camps bother you more than Rome's? Or is my assessment of what you said incorrect?
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2017, 06:49:59 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.

But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
Came back?  The Eparchy of Chelms was liquidated by the Tsar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Chełm_Eparchy

What we call now eparchy of Lublin and Chełm (of the Polish Orthodox Church) is sometimes called the old capital of the Polish Orthodoxy. And this eparchy, together with Podlasie region, gave to the Church the new martyrs (Męczennicy Chełmscy i Podlascy). The only unfortunate fact that it came back to Orthodoxy because of Russians (and many were, I'm repeating, not against Orthodoxy, but against Russians). But for decades they don't have any influence on the eparchy and, very slowly, it's becoming more vivid.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2017, 07:39:47 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 07:43:57 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2017, 07:54:27 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2017, 09:12:51 PM »
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.



What does Mirror Universe Evil Kira have to do with this thread?  Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?

That said, DS9, yum.  Rather more appealing than reading my faith abused by some chap in a fedora.  I think I shall tune in via Netflix presently. 

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2017, 09:25:59 PM »
Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?


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Re: Summing up
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2017, 09:34:54 PM »
I tried Pepsi and I hated it.  Then I went for the real thing....Coca-Cola.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2017, 10:05:56 PM »
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.



What does Mirror Universe Evil Kira have to do with this thread?  Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?

Don't you mean Mirror Universe Evil Gay Everyone?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2017, 10:18:31 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
The Union of Brest was at the end of the 16th century. About 350 years later West Ukraine was under Russia.

That is not "a short time later". Jesus was persecuted by Romans in 33 AD. Then in 313 Christianity was Rome's official religion. You can't say that was soon afterwards or that Romans beliefs in 313 were about as loyal to Jesus as they were 300 years before. They were polar opposites.

Same thing with Jihad. You can't say Muslims being fiercely loyal to Islam in 1050 ad proves that Egypt was fiercely loyal back in 700 ad and wasn't being forcibly converted.

350 years is not "soon afterwards". It's 7 generations or more later after thorough Catholic rule.

No Polish conquest=no mass conversion to Rome in Ukraine.

It's that simple.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2017, 10:39:40 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
The Union of Brest was at the end of the 16th century. About 350 years later West Ukraine was under Russia.

That is not "a short time later". Jesus was persecuted by Romans in 33 AD. Then in 313 Christianity was Rome's official religion. You can't say that was soon afterwards or that Romans beliefs in 313 were about as loyal to Jesus as they were 300 years before. They were polar opposites.

Same thing with Jihad. You can't say Muslims being fiercely loyal to Islam in 1050 ad proves that Egypt was fiercely loyal back in 700 ad and wasn't being forcibly converted.

350 years is not "soon afterwards". It's 7 generations or more later after thorough Catholic rule.

No Polish conquest=no mass conversion to Rome in Ukraine.

It's that simple.
My own Church has nothing to do with the Polish conquest.  Mukachevo was under Hungarian rule, Calvinist at that.  The union was at the instigation of the priests who feared Calvinist expansion. 
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2017, 11:11:13 PM »
Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?



Oh that is epic.  Fully optimized for use on the Private Forums.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2017, 12:17:43 AM »
Quote
I can't follow you there since the Roman Catholic priests and nuns and laity tortured and raped my family.

If that's true, they weren't following our teachings.

Quote
...marriages sometimes decades old weren't even real.

Because sometimes they weren't.

Quote
So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?

Talking about our shared love of Orthodox culture while being upfront about being Catholic and explaining why.

Of course I respect an Orthodox forum defending Orthodoxy so I'll say again I'm not here to get individual conversions in order to break up your families, etc. My goal is to bring you all into the Catholic Church together (that would happen in the extremely unlikely event all your bishops chose to join; the question's just about moot) and then not disturb the rite, a perfectly good one I still use.

Quote
What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Do you mean my main objection to Orthodoxy? The notion that the Catholic faith of ultimately all my ancestors (English, German, and Spanish) is false because it's not the same culture as the Orthodox, when it's clear to me it's the same faith; true. I love Orthodox culture but "no sale."

Quote
The Great Schism made that [generational Western Orthodoxy] a little difficult.

No more so than the western Ukrainians and the Melkites being in the Catholic Church for centuries, the Melkites often not latinizing. Something that would impress me would be an analogue among the Orthodox: what if, after the schism, you'd managed to convince a region of Belgium or Portugal, for example, to become Orthodox, which they would remain for centuries to this day with an authentically Western expression of that (Romanesque paintings and Benedictine monks Gregorian-chanting Masses)?

Quote
Culture though shouldn't trump truth for you.

Even if Orthodoxy developed the lasting, authentically Western expression I suggest, I still wouldn't join because of divorce and remarriage and because of contraception, and, most important, I still wouldn't disbelieve that the papal office has only defended the full apostolic faith.

Quote
Seeking attention.

 ;D Don't we all? Seriously, to share our interest in Orthodox culture and, within the forum's bounds defending its true-church claim (I understand your objection to many of my posts), explain the Catholic Church when there are questions.

Quote
...liberalizing Catholic bishops (which I notice have somehow not driven you into sedevacantism).

Because I understand Catholic teaching well enough not to panic like that. I'll get back to this.

Quote
By the same measure isn't that what Byzcath is? I could just as easily argue that it's idolatrous for all these cultures to insist on their sui iuris special privileges and not just shut up and learn Latin.

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.

(Officially I am not a Byzantine Catholic but I won't rule out becoming one. I'm in no hurry to do so because I'm not out to prove anything against the Roman Rite nor assume a new identity by so doing.)

Quote
What about the Old Catholics? What about the Sedes?

Glad you asked! The Old Catholics would impress me if, again, they held the fort on divorce and remarriage and on contraception. Also, by their fruits shall ye know them. I don't see teeming vocations (to the priesthood and to monasticism) and charitable work from them like I do historically from the real Catholics. If they held the truth on the issues I named, had a generational presence in their European homeland and the United States, and better still, retained the Tridentine Mass, likely often done in the vernacular, again, like with the Orthodoxy I described in the original post, they would challenge my faith. But it just isn't so. Old Catholicism never took off and it liberalized. It's mostly ex-Catholic, not generational, it's mostly clergy, and it's basically a European rump sect, Dutch Episcopalians.

The sedevacantist scenario can happen. It never has. I don't like Pope Francis as a person. That doesn't matter. Dumb remarks on a plane aren't ex cathedra teaching. The Pope has a narrowly defined job of defending Catholic teaching. If he stops doing that job, he's no longer Pope. And that's not for me to decide. My guess is an ecclesiastical second-in-command would declare the see vacant. Really, if it happened, it wouldn't affect me. I'm a layman (I was a reader). The Pope is a name the priest whispers in the Roman Canon (anaphora at Mass) or chants a couple of times in the Byzantine Rite. The faith goes on.

Quote
I'd be interested in hearing what caused you to have these opinions.

Thank you. I've been trying to do that but it's been stepping on toes here as this is, after all, an Orthodox board.

Quote
Your "Rome or the abyss" line got me thinking: are you implying that Orthodoxy is a sort of Protestantism?

No, simply alluding to Catholicism's true-church claim. If I thought Orthodoxy was Protestant I wouldn't be wearing a three-bar crucifix, have an icon corner where I do prostrations and say Byzantine Rite prayers, or go to a church that uses the Byzantine Rite.

Quote
If so, why do our various schisms and camps bother you more than Rome's? Or is my assessment of what you said incorrect?

Do they? I rarely think about those.

As for the rest in this thread I think Deacon Lance has answered for me.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2017, 12:21:00 AM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
The Union of Brest was at the end of the 16th century. About 350 years later West Ukraine was under Russia.

That is not "a short time later". Jesus was persecuted by Romans in 33 AD. Then in 313 Christianity was Rome's official religion. You can't say that was soon afterwards or that Romans beliefs in 313 were about as loyal to Jesus as they were 300 years before. They were polar opposites.

Same thing with Jihad. You can't say Muslims being fiercely loyal to Islam in 1050 ad proves that Egypt was fiercely loyal back in 700 ad and wasn't being forcibly converted.

350 years is not "soon afterwards". It's 7 generations or more later after thorough Catholic rule.

No Polish conquest=no mass conversion to Rome in Ukraine.

It's that simple.
My own Church has nothing to do with the Polish conquest.  Mukachevo was under Hungarian rule, Calvinist at that.  The union was at the instigation of the priests who feared Calvinist expansion.
The mass of Eastern Catholic churches went from being Orthodox under Orthodox rule to Orthodox under Catholic rule, and then forced to convert. If your church in Hungarian Mukachevo didn't go through this, it doesn't disprove what happened to most of the Eastern Catholics who converted after the conquest.

Mukachevo's population is 86,000.
By contrast, Lvov's population is 724,000 and Brest's population is 329,000.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2017, 12:37:13 AM »
This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic
Unfortunately, I'm not much aware of the history of Orthodoxy in Poland, but there were many Orthodox martyrs in Poland from Roman Catholics during the XX century. St. Maxim Sandowicz is probably the most famous case, but even Metropolitan Basil of blessed memory (last primate of the Polish Orthodox) witnessed a massacre inside his church.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2017, 12:38:40 AM »
Was Sandowicz killed for being Orthodox or for allegedly spying for Russia?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 12:39:17 AM by The young fogey »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2017, 12:54:01 AM »
Quote from: the young fogey
I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.

Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one? If one wants to be a Byzcath, they can't respond to the priest in Latin or cross themselves the Latin way in Church, can they? You dislike Orthodoxy for insisting on its own culture but allow the Byzcath to do the same.

I'm sorry WRO is so tiny, but that isn't because there's some nefarious scheme of bishops sabotaging it so it really doesn't make sense to blame Orthodoxy as a religion, that's just the way it happened. Maybe things will change in a generation or two.

Quote from: the young fogey
Even if Orthodoxy developed the lasting, authentically Western expression I suggest, I still wouldn't join because of divorce and remarriage and because of contraception, and, most important, I still wouldn't disbelieve that the papal office has only defended the full apostolic faith.

1. Why do you care so much what goes on in other people's bedrooms? That's creepy. Let God judge them (and the bishops shepherding them).

2. Where's the obsession with ecumenism? What kind of reactionary are you?

Quote from: the young fogey
and, most important, I still wouldn't disbelieve that the papal office has only defended the full apostolic faith.

Well, you sure didn't mention that in the OP. Kind of a more important issue than smells and bells and other people's goolies, I'd say. Has this whole thread been a

« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 12:57:17 AM by Volnutt »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2017, 01:06:47 AM »
Quote
Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one?

Because the church agrees that the Orthodox rite is entirely Catholic; we don't insist on uniformity.

Quote
You dislike Orthodoxy for insisting on its own culture.

No, I don't believe in Orthodoxy because it insists on excluding other cultures. I love its culture.

Quote
That's just the way it happened.

Would you accept that from a Catholic defending bishops treating Byzantine Catholics in America like garbage? I hope not!

Quote
1. Why do you care so much what goes on in other people's bedrooms? That's creepy. Let God judge them (and the bishops shepherding them).

2. Where's the obsession with ecumenism? What kind of reactionary are you?

1. is pretty much the refrain of modern American Protestantism and secularism; I say "modern" because until the last century all Christians opposed contraception and Protestants agreed with us on divorce. As for 2., I'm more interested in the truth and Christian love than pride in being reactionary.

Quote
Well, you sure didn't mention that in the OP. Kind of a more important issue than smells and bells and other people's goolies, I'd say.

Been too upfront for some here about being Catholic so obviously I'm not trying to deceive.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2017, 01:26:37 AM »
Was Sandowicz killed for being Orthodox or for allegedly spying for Russia?
Why else do you think he was executed for "Russophilia"?  :o
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2017, 01:40:49 AM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month...
You call this trying Orthodoxy?  No, you most definitely did not try Orthodoxy.
He was chrismated Orthodox, belonged to a parish for many years, and was ordained a reader.  He tried it.
OK, fair enough.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2017, 01:45:36 AM »
I would also think the resurgence of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and Slovakia after Communism fell should serve as proof.
You have to acknowledge that the situation was more complex than that.  After the forced merger with the Orthodox under Soviet rule, it cannot be denied that nationalism may have been a factor in this resurgence.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2017, 02:02:31 AM »
Quote
Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one?
Because the church agrees that the Orthodox rite is entirely Catholic; we don't insist on uniformity.
Ritually, just for half a century and quite imperfectly.  Not to mention like Pope FI changing the CCEO a couple of years ago without any consultation.  Uniformity is as Roman as spaghetti.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2017, 03:12:14 AM »
I tried Orthodoxy...

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.

+1

Good to know you found somewhere you fit in. 

I can't follow you there since the Roman Catholic priests and nuns and laity tortured and raped my family.



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Re: Summing up
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2017, 04:32:10 AM »
Quote
Why insist on their own rite, though? Why not just assimilate into the Roman one?

Because the church agrees that the Orthodox rite is entirely Catholic; we don't insist on uniformity.

Quote
You dislike Orthodoxy for insisting on its own culture.

As I understand it, it's more about doctrinal correctness than culture, something Catholics certainly understand (see, Chinese Rites Controversy). Apparently the Orthodox aren't completely opposed to other cultures, though, or else how would the Liturgy ever have been translated into any other language than the most ancient ones.

Quote
That's just the way it happened.

Would you accept that from a Catholic defending bishops treating Byzantine Catholics in America like garbage? I hope not!

That would be a specious defense because no bishop is trying to kill the WRO that I know of (maybe in ROCOR, but not in all of Orthodoxy). But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?

Quote
1. Why do you care so much what goes on in other people's bedrooms? That's creepy. Let God judge them (and the bishops shepherding them).

2. Where's the obsession with ecumenism? What kind of reactionary are you?

1. is pretty much the refrain of modern American Protestantism and secularism; I say "modern" because until the last century all Christians opposed contraception and Protestants agreed with us on divorce.

I'm not sure I buy your history but my point is not that remarriage and contraception are good or that you have to agree with them. Just that it's kind of pointless to be so obsessed with pastoral decisions that don't concern you that you walk. If the Catholic Church embraced the Orthodox viewpoint on these things tomorrow what would you do, kill yourself?

As for 2., I'm more interested in the truth and Christian love than pride in being reactionary.

Alice the Antiecumenist says that just means you're more concerned with the world's definition of love and being loved by the world than you are with the truth and real love of God. She says that you and your media whore Water Office Head are a perfect pair.

Been too upfront for some here about being Catholic so obviously I'm not trying to deceive.

The OP makes it sound like sex and culture are the only things keeping you out of Orthodoxy. Seems to me it looked just like the same kind of thread that plenty of Catholics and others teetering on the edge of conversion, going back and forth and looking for a reason to swim the Bosporus, put out there.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody replying to those folks just assumes that they're still super duper enthusiastic about Papal Supremacy.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2017, 06:35:25 AM »
Quote
Why else do you think he was executed for "Russophilia"?

I'm no supporter of World War I but such executions for espionage happen in wartime. It might not have really been about religion.

Quote
Ritually, just for half a century and quite imperfectly.  Not to mention like Pope FI changing the CCEO a couple of years ago without any consultation.  Uniformity is as Roman as spaghetti.

That would have been news to St. Pius X, for example, who approved the Russian Catholic Church with the famous line "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" (not more, not less, not other) than Russian Orthodox practice.

But anyway, if you're as set on leaving the church as you sound, you won't let facts get in your way. You've found a good place online for moral support. Your will be done. I think I've told you the risk. What would you be giving up your Maronite Rite for, its Syriac parent or Byzantine Orthodoxy?

Quote
Just that it's kind of pointless to be so obsessed with pastoral decisions that don't concern you that you walk. If the Catholic Church embraced the Orthodox viewpoint on these things tomorrow what would you do, kill yourself?

Something that embraces untruth on principle can't be the church. Kill myself? If Christianity turned out to be false, which Catholicism being false would mean, so, for example, if Orthodoxy were the truth about Christianity, that would be an option theoretically. Or I'd try Buddhism, a nice philosophy and practice except it doesn't answer ultimate questions.

Quote
Alice the Antiecumenist says that just means you're more concerned with the world's definition of love and being loved by the world than you are with the truth and real love of God. She says that you and your media whore Water Office Head are a perfect pair.

Yep, that's me; changing my views to fit into secular society.  ;D Your game is slipping if you think that's good bait.

Quote
The OP makes it sound like sex and culture are the only things keeping you out of Orthodoxy. Seems to me it looked just like the same kind of thread that plenty of Catholics and others teetering on the edge of conversion, going back and forth and looking for a reason to swim the Bosporus, put out there.

More like the opposite; to tell teetering Catholics (whose business is still my business; I don't post in order to bother cradle Orthodox) they leave at their own risk and that they can have the best of Orthodoxy and even get to know the Orthodox in so doing if they stay put.

The sex-and-culture point of the original post is more a debating point; if such and such were true it would challenge my faith. You and I know they're not true of Orthodoxy (except the Orthodox used to agree with us on contraception) so the question's moot.

Quote
I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody replying to those folks just assumes that they're still super duper enthusiastic about Papal Supremacy.

Or, hence the water-department analogy, papal supremacy doesn't mean what you think.

Quote
But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?

Which is what bigoted Roman Rite clergy 80 years ago thought of Catholics from eastern Slovakia having clerical marriage; in other words, maybe you're just baiting me but you're making like it really was okay for them to treat these Catholics badly.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2017, 06:42:11 AM »
My goal is to bring you all into the Catholic Church together (that would happen in the extremely unlikely event all your bishops chose to join; the question's just about moot) and then not disturb the rite, a perfectly good one I still use.
Rite come from the faith and express it. That's why you always feel in Eastern Catholic churches (even not so latinised) that's not Orthodox. The Orthodoxy is not about symbols.

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic
Unfortunately, I'm not much aware of the history of Orthodoxy in Poland, but there were many Orthodox martyrs in Poland from Roman Catholics during the XX century. St. Maxim Sandowicz is probably the most famous case, but even Metropolitan Basil of blessed memory (last primate of the Polish Orthodox) witnessed a massacre inside his church.

Exactly. For example, st. Bazyli Martysz (his reliquis are at my parish), that was the Polish Orthodox chaplain, was murdered for being an Orthodox priest, despite national orders and his children that also had an impact to Polish culture and history. His son was fighting freedom of Poland in the famous (and very important, emotional for us) battle of Monte Cassino,His daugheter, a famous Polish singer and actress.

I would also think the resurgence of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and Slovakia after Communism fell should serve as proof.
You have to acknowledge that the situation was more complex than that.  After the forced merger with the Orthodox under Soviet rule, it cannot be denied that nationalism may have been a factor in this resurgence.
+1
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2017, 07:40:23 AM »
Quote
Rite come from the faith and express it. That's why you always feel in Eastern Catholic churches (even not so latinised) that's not Orthodox. The Orthodoxy is not about symbols.

I know what you mean. A temptation for Catholics who fall in love with the Byzantine Rite (I've seen it with convert friends in person and over and over online) is to get fed up with the latinizations most Slavic Byzantine Catholics prefer, and the latter people aren't interested in the Orthodox, and leave to become "the real thing." I say that while Byzantine culture is good, it's still not the whole faith; some things, such as acknowledging that Latin Catholicism is grace-filled, even if a historic enemy practices it (Poles vs. Ukrainians, Serbs vs. Croats), and truth according to logic about divorce and remarriage and about contraception, are more important.

That said, my typical American Ukrainian Catholic part-time parish is delatinized enough (over the objections of at least a few parishioners) that I dare say many American Slavic Orthodox such as older OCA and ACROD, whose families were Catholic two or three generations ago, would feel at home, as I do at many of their parishes, which is why those Slavic schisms in America are heartbreaking for me (traveling in upstate Pennsylvania, I've been to some of those old churches). Culturally and, we believe, sacramentally they are still very much a part of us.

Quote
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

Remembering meeting Archbishop Vsevolod of the Ukrainian Orthodox in Chicago, born in Poland, the son of an Orthodox priest, my feeling is he didn't hate anyone. The nicest bishop I've met was one of yours.

Quote
After the forced merger with the Orthodox under Soviet rule, it cannot be denied that nationalism may have been a factor in this resurgence.

I agree. But the older American-born people I worship with aren't that nationalistic this way. They identify with it but they're American; their first language is Ukrainian but with their local American (Philadelphia) accent and they usually speak local American English now. They grew up in Chester, Pennsylvania, and don't identify with the Orthodox at all, even though the Orthodox and their churches were right alongside them; they knew each other.

As often happens in these situations, I am more interested in the Orthodox than they are and identify partly with the Orthodox (!!) while they don't, but this time I'm definitely staying put.

By the way, in America, both the Slavic Byzantine Catholics and their relatives, literally, who "returned to Orthodoxy" via the OCA, ACROD, and Ukrainian Orthodoxy, are slowly dying out. My part-time parish is a merger of two failed parishes.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 07:50:37 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2017, 09:28:26 AM »
Quote
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

I mean in this context:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.


Of course, it's not about all Greek Catholic Ukrainians in Poland, but about not a small group.

1. The way of calling their Church in talks or writing by themselves: "Our Greek Catholic faith"/"Our Greek Catholic Church" or "Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Faith"/Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church" (not: "Our Catholic faith"/"The Catholic Church"), there is a strong emphasis on the word "our". You can even hear 'Our Greek Catholic language"/"Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic language".

2. This Church is rather exclusive for Ukrainas, well, plus Lemkos, but in their opinion Lemkos are not (so)separate ethnic group (while in the Polish Orthodox Church we have speical parishes and priests for Lemkos). Polish people (e.g traditional Catholics looking for better liturgical practices than at their parishes) are treated very suspiciously; when I was going from time to time to one of their parish, I was lucky actually only because I'm also Serbian. As fare I know, in the whoel world they have active only one active mission in Asia; well, it was a few years ago, mabye now they do more such things.

3. Church solemnities are connected to the Ukrainian natioanl ideas; for example, when they took this year the chapel that had been used by them and Orthodox on the Holy Mount Jawor in Poland (now the Polish Orthodox Church can't use it, we have service on the altar under a tent), they organised one week (or something like that) after Orthodox pilgrimage for the saints Peter and Paul feasts a kind of religious-national demonastration.

4. After the services, at least at parish in Warsaw, there were (are?) not only cultural, but also political meetings.

5. Of course, the best option to see and feel it enterly is to attend a service and talk to these people.


Edit: maybe it's because of the fact, that they're always between. Living in Poland, but being Ukrainians (now probaly most of belivers of this Church in Poland are new immigrants, but 5-10 years ago they're old immigration plus some cradles). They're not Orthodox, but they're not Latins. They have fasts more severe than Latins, but very light in comparison to Orthodox. They soemtiems use komboskini, but they also practice the western usage of rosary, some typical latin feasts and so n. They sing soem paralitugical Orthodox songs, but they're not Orthodox. They do kneelign in mometns typical for Latins, despite having Byzantine rite.
I remember my mother entering one Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church "It's completely Catholic. I know, they're Greek Catholics, but it's so Catholic". And under the term "Catholic" she meant "Latin(ised)". That they're not original for both sides (Orthodox and Roman Catholics).

« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:35:02 AM by Dominika »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2017, 09:36:23 AM »
Dominika, that's interesting. Are there any videos of Greek Catholic liturgies in Poland?

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2017, 10:16:04 AM »
Ah, I forgot to mention Отці Підгорецькі (Fathers of Pidhore) that found Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church and anathemised all Catholic bishops ( you can watch some videos of it).

It's clearly against this:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.

And over years these Fathers had an impact for many believers of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics Church (mainly in Ukraine). Now I don't know, how much they're influential.

Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

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Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2017, 10:22:06 AM »
Dominika, that's interesting. Are there any videos of Greek Catholic liturgies in Poland?

Yes, mainly from Pascha and Nativity:

Warsaw

Wrocław

Jarosław
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2017, 10:49:22 AM »
Dominika, that's interesting. Are there any videos of Greek Catholic liturgies in Poland?

Yes, mainly from Pascha and Nativity:

Warsaw

Wrocław

Jarosław

Thanks a lot... I had a brief look and the first two just "feel wrong" to me. The last one is ok, except for the missing beard.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2017, 01:26:19 PM »
Quote
Just that it's kind of pointless to be so obsessed with pastoral decisions that don't concern you that you walk. If the Catholic Church embraced the Orthodox viewpoint on these things tomorrow what would you do, kill yourself?

Something that embraces untruth on principle can't be the church. Kill myself? If Christianity turned out to be false, which Catholicism being false would mean, so, for example, if Orthodoxy were the truth about Christianity, that would be an option theoretically. Or I'd try Buddhism, a nice philosophy and practice except it doesn't answer ultimate questions.

Quote
Alice the Antiecumenist says that just means you're more concerned with the world's definition of love and being loved by the world than you are with the truth and real love of God. She says that you and your media whore Water Office Head are a perfect pair.

Yep, that's me; changing my views to fit into secular society.  ;D Your game is slipping if you think that's good bait.

You're missing my point (perhaps my fault). If remarriage and contraception are such an obsession that you're willing to walk from a whole church over them, then ecumenism in the RCC probably should (consistently, logically) be too. The opposition seem to go hand in hand for most other tradies. The lack of it in you looks hypocritical.

Quote
The OP makes it sound like sex and culture are the only things keeping you out of Orthodoxy. Seems to me it looked just like the same kind of thread that plenty of Catholics and others teetering on the edge of conversion, going back and forth and looking for a reason to swim the Bosporus, put out there.

More like the opposite; to tell teetering Catholics (whose business is still my business; I don't post in order to bother cradle Orthodox) they leave at their own risk and that they can have the best of Orthodoxy and even get to know the Orthodox in so doing if they stay put.

The sex-and-culture point of the original post is more a debating point; if such and such were true it would challenge my faith. You and I know they're not true of Orthodoxy (except the Orthodox used to agree with us on contraception) so the question's moot.

Ok, fine.

Quote
I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody replying to those folks just assumes that they're still super duper enthusiastic about Papal Supremacy.

Or, hence the water-department analogy, papal supremacy doesn't mean what you think.

Not that that analogy's gone over without controversy here, but alright.

Quote
But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?

Which is what bigoted Roman Rite clergy 80 years ago thought of Catholics from eastern Slovakia having clerical marriage; in other words, maybe you're just baiting me but you're making like it really was okay for them to treat these Catholics badly.

I don't think it was ok, no. I think that one could argue that pressuring a group to change is ok if their cultural practice is theologically or morally wrong, like they thought clerical marriage was and some EOs seem to think a lot of Latin practices are. Do you think Pope Clement XI was a bigot for siding against the Jesuits in the Chinese Rites Controversy?

I'm surprised no one argues that Pius XII was being a compromising modernist for walking that one back a couple centuries later.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2017, 01:59:07 PM »
Quote
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

I mean in this context:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.


Of course, it's not about all Greek Catholic Ukrainians in Poland, but about not a small group.

1. The way of calling their Church in talks or writing by themselves: "Our Greek Catholic faith"/"Our Greek Catholic Church" or "Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Faith"/Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church" (not: "Our Catholic faith"/"The Catholic Church"), there is a strong emphasis on the word "our". You can even hear 'Our Greek Catholic language"/"Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic language".

2. This Church is rather exclusive for Ukrainas, well, plus Lemkos, but in their opinion Lemkos are not (so)separate ethnic group (while in the Polish Orthodox Church we have speical parishes and priests for Lemkos). Polish people (e.g traditional Catholics looking for better liturgical practices than at their parishes) are treated very suspiciously; when I was going from time to time to one of their parish, I was lucky actually only because I'm also Serbian. As fare I know, in the whoel world they have active only one active mission in Asia; well, it was a few years ago, mabye now they do more such things.

3. Church solemnities are connected to the Ukrainian natioanl ideas; for example, when they took this year the chapel that had been used by them and Orthodox on the Holy Mount Jawor in Poland (now the Polish Orthodox Church can't use it, we have service on the altar under a tent), they organised one week (or something like that) after Orthodox pilgrimage for the saints Peter and Paul feasts a kind of religious-national demonastration.

4. After the services, at least at parish in Warsaw, there were (are?) not only cultural, but also political meetings.

5. Of course, the best option to see and feel it enterly is to attend a service and talk to these people.


Edit: maybe it's because of the fact, that they're always between. Living in Poland, but being Ukrainians (now probaly most of belivers of this Church in Poland are new immigrants, but 5-10 years ago they're old immigration plus some cradles). They're not Orthodox, but they're not Latins. They have fasts more severe than Latins, but very light in comparison to Orthodox. They soemtiems use komboskini, but they also practice the western usage of rosary, some typical latin feasts and so n. They sing soem paralitugical Orthodox songs, but they're not Orthodox. They do kneelign in mometns typical for Latins, despite having Byzantine rite.
I remember my mother entering one Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church "It's completely Catholic. I know, they're Greek Catholics, but it's so Catholic". And under the term "Catholic" she meant "Latin(ised)". That they're not original for both sides (Orthodox and Roman Catholics).

Comments in general to this thread:

Dominika's lived experience should be a nice wake up call for the Roman apologist.   Somehow though it seems he prefers to combine his limited local impressions with an even more limited experience of the milieu of these people he has taken up with. 

He also does not register that the Roman Catholic church in the Americas, the actual place in which he resides, was in collusion with the respective governments to commit genocide on Amer-Indian people.  The governments let the priests and nuns do whatever they wanted to those children, and they killed, raped and tortured them.  They would loan them out to other pedophiles in the community to be gang raped.  There are people who witnessed their 'classmates' or inmates being thrown out of second story windows by nuns, killing them. 

Indian boarding school system was the most horrifying display of utter perversity I've ever encountered sanctioned by the Roman Catholic church and the governments across the United States and Canada.  That's no small thing or isolated incident.  I wonder what God thinks about priests and nuns raping and killing children? 

Fogey states:
Quote
"But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?"
This is to what he declares loyalty, his actual home church is made up of these people and we can easily see it today with all the lawsuits against the local parishes.  Somehow Rome protects itself in many of these cases.  Sometimes the local governments pass statute of limitations laws to help the Roman Catholic church avoid lawsuits.  We can see it around the world in places like Ireland with the mass burial of children in homes for unwed mothers.  We can see it through their policy of selling children of poor unwed mothers for profit.

That doesn't concern him at all though.  He is more worried that someone, somewhere might be making responsible choices about their family, i.e. using birth control as a married couple, or that someone didn't pay the Roman Catholic church to erase their first marriage before marrying again.

If he is NOT primarily basing his decision on these factors, then his OP is disingenuous and he is trolling an Orthodox site to entertain himself.   

The more he writes, the more clear it becomes that he is basing his faith on what some people far away did or did not do, but he has no idea really about these people and their culture, attitudes, etc. 

That form of thinking is dream like, delusional and very typical of USA people who have a tendency to create and join random splinter groups derived from disaffected European religious problems. I see this in some Orthodox converts as well, the glomming onto a foreign culture as an aspect of religiosity. 

This is becoming a more common USA theme as the culture becomes more impoverished and fragmented with an almost purely materialist based society.   A lot of people realize that the Protestant work ethic life developed out of the Industrial Age is very unfulfilling.

It's a good idea for him to just stay where he is at if he is happy there, but it does look like he has painted himself into a corner with regard to religion.

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Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2017, 04:18:20 PM »
The Catholic Church allows divorce and remarriage. They just do it with more sophistry and logical circumlocutions. Young Fogey already admitted that the Orthodox discipline on divorce is pre-schism, so he is showing his Latin chauvinism here, despite his protestations to the contrary.

The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation. Rome's apologists then try to cover this contradiction with some hand-waving about "natural law." But spacing sexy-time based on a calendar and mucus tests is just as artificial as a latex barrier or coitus interruptus.

And seriously if you're so opposed to contraception you should lose the moustache and hat.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:19:40 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2017, 04:21:02 PM »
Quote
So you should meet Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Poland and talk with them.

I should. Having learned Russian and the Byzantine Rite I owe it to myself to see Eastern Europe one day. I think I know that Poles and Ukrainians have long not liked each other; Polish persecution pushed the Orthodox metropolitan of Kiev and his bishops to join the Catholic Church (the union of Brest-Litovsk in 1596, the Ukrainian Catholic Church's founding charter) to try to end that, which I understand didn't work.

That said, western Ukrainians, including the first Eastern Christians I got to know, 35 years ago, remained committed to Catholicism under Communist persecution, choosing overwhelmingly to return to it as soon as they were allowed to. (The Rusyns in eastern Slovakia did the same thing after the 1968 Czech revolt against Soviet rule.) Like the American-born Ukrainians in their 70s I worship with, these are not closeted Orthodox yearning to break free of Rome. The family I met decades ago chose to leave home, coming to a new country and learning another language, rather than do what the Soviets wanted, including "return to Orthodoxy."

I mean in this context:

I don't understand your line of reasoning here. Byzantine Catholics by nature don't claim that people outside their culture are outside the church.


Of course, it's not about all Greek Catholic Ukrainians in Poland, but about not a small group.

1. The way of calling their Church in talks or writing by themselves: "Our Greek Catholic faith"/"Our Greek Catholic Church" or "Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Faith"/Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church" (not: "Our Catholic faith"/"The Catholic Church"), there is a strong emphasis on the word "our". You can even hear 'Our Greek Catholic language"/"Our Ukrainian Greek Catholic language".

2. This Church is rather exclusive for Ukrainas, well, plus Lemkos, but in their opinion Lemkos are not (so)separate ethnic group (while in the Polish Orthodox Church we have speical parishes and priests for Lemkos). Polish people (e.g traditional Catholics looking for better liturgical practices than at their parishes) are treated very suspiciously; when I was going from time to time to one of their parish, I was lucky actually only because I'm also Serbian. As fare I know, in the whoel world they have active only one active mission in Asia; well, it was a few years ago, mabye now they do more such things.

3. Church solemnities are connected to the Ukrainian natioanl ideas; for example, when they took this year the chapel that had been used by them and Orthodox on the Holy Mount Jawor in Poland (now the Polish Orthodox Church can't use it, we have service on the altar under a tent), they organised one week (or something like that) after Orthodox pilgrimage for the saints Peter and Paul feasts a kind of religious-national demonastration.

4. After the services, at least at parish in Warsaw, there were (are?) not only cultural, but also political meetings.

5. Of course, the best option to see and feel it enterly is to attend a service and talk to these people.


Edit: maybe it's because of the fact, that they're always between. Living in Poland, but being Ukrainians (now probaly most of belivers of this Church in Poland are new immigrants, but 5-10 years ago they're old immigration plus some cradles). They're not Orthodox, but they're not Latins. They have fasts more severe than Latins, but very light in comparison to Orthodox. They soemtiems use komboskini, but they also practice the western usage of rosary, some typical latin feasts and so n. They sing soem paralitugical Orthodox songs, but they're not Orthodox. They do kneelign in mometns typical for Latins, despite having Byzantine rite.
I remember my mother entering one Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church "It's completely Catholic. I know, they're Greek Catholics, but it's so Catholic". And under the term "Catholic" she meant "Latin(ised)". That they're not original for both sides (Orthodox and Roman Catholics).

Comments in general to this thread:

Dominika's lived experience should be a nice wake up call for the Roman apologist.   Somehow though it seems he prefers to combine his limited local impressions with an even more limited experience of the milieu of these people he has taken up with. 

He also does not register that the Roman Catholic church in the Americas, the actual place in which he resides, was in collusion with the respective governments to commit genocide on Amer-Indian people.  The governments let the priests and nuns do whatever they wanted to those children, and they killed, raped and tortured them.  They would loan them out to other pedophiles in the community to be gang raped.  There are people who witnessed their 'classmates' or inmates being thrown out of second story windows by nuns, killing them. 

Indian boarding school system was the most horrifying display of utter perversity I've ever encountered sanctioned by the Roman Catholic church and the governments across the United States and Canada.  That's no small thing or isolated incident.  I wonder what God thinks about priests and nuns raping and killing children?

Yes, the boarding school system is unforgivable, I've read about it too (and the enormities in Ireland). But I don't think it's really a gotcha against the RCC because I'm quite sure if you dig far enough you can also find dirt like that about the Orthodox, St. Innocent's Academy in Kodiak for just one example. Not on the same scale, sure, but just as stomach turning.

I've also read claims that the Southern Baptist Convention has more sex abuse claims than the Catholic Church right now. Child molestation is a problem everywhere (synagogues, public schools, neighborhoods near military bases...)

Fogey states:
Quote
"But if a bishop is convinced that a specific cultural practice is absolutely harmful, why shouldn't he try to kill it?"
This is a quote by me, not Fogey. And I meant "kill" in a metaphorical way, just to be clear.

Example of a cultural practice that has been killed and with good reason--Chinese foot binding. Not that I think any Latin liturgical practice is remotely as bad as foot binding but then, I'm not an Orthodox bishop.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2017, 04:27:59 PM »
The Catholic Church allows divorce and remarriage. They just do it with more sophistry and logical circumlocutions.

I think this argument has already been made here. I doubt you're going to prove it to fogey without death by infinite specific examples.

Young Fogey already admitted that the Orthodox discipline on divorce is pre-schism, so he is showing his Latin chauvinism here, despite his protestations to the contrary.

Was it universal within the East, though?

The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation.

I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

And seriously if you're so opposed to contraception you should lose the moustache and hat.

So thaaaaat's why all Mario ever gets from Peach is cake...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:29:05 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2017, 04:50:11 PM »
I don't expect Mr Fogey to be convinced. He is here as a propagandist, not for dialogue. I am content that others will see the incoherence of his position.

I don't think one needs a slew of examples to prove the inherent silliness of granting divorces and pretending they're not divorces, or marrying people and then pretending you didn't marry them. The Latin system is nonsense both in theory and practice, and will probably not survive this papacy in its current form.

I don't think any marriage discipline was universal anywhere. Both the Latin and Eastern Orthodox systems are not especially ancient.

And yes, St Augustine would be one of many fathers east and west who would consider NFP a kind of fornication.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:50:38 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2017, 05:02:56 PM »
Well, I'll at least say that the typical reason for an annulment that I see given (somebody lied about wanting kids) doesn't sound to me like it could actually be all that common but then, I'm not married.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2017, 05:38:05 PM »
I think I recall you saying that you don't mind the apparent modernism promoted by the Vatican, especially Pope Francis, as the faith continues to live on regardless. Considering how Rome has now cast itself in the role of being the tentpole for a large tent of wildly different traditions, a la Anglican Communion, why aren't you worried that Rome to go in the same direction as Canterbury? (The main Anglican Communion lacking the majority of traditionalists these days).

Do you think that the neocatechumenal way and other similar movements are redeemable? Why or why not?

What has made you comfortable with the theology of the Pope of Rome's position undergoing development?
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2017, 05:54:53 PM »
The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation.

I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.
Don't know about that, but would not be surprised.
More importantly though, I think SSPX, and I am fairly certain that Michaelites and sedevacantists, also reject NFP. So arguably NFP is indeed a post-Vatican II innovation.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2017, 05:57:20 PM »
The Catholic Church allows divorce and remarriage. They just do it with more sophistry and logical circumlocutions. Young Fogey already admitted that the Orthodox discipline on divorce is pre-schism, so he is showing his Latin chauvinism here, despite his protestations to the contrary.

And just to add to this, there are plenty of Latin Fathers who approved of divorce and remarriage under circumstances similar to the Eastern position. The current Catholic position is more an imposition of Charlemagne throughout the Frankish Church, uncritically adopting St. Augustine's position (which he himself cast doubt on in his Retractions) while simultaneously ignoring the vast array of evidence of granting dispensation in both practice and canon law.

I wanna say we've covered this evidence for Fogey before, but I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 05:58:29 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2017, 06:07:09 PM »
The Catholic Church also allows contraception ever since Humana Vitae permitted "natural family planning." Rome's opposition to contraception is justified using patristic texts that condemn any sex act done without the goal of procreation. The rhythm method clearly falls under this condemnation.

I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.
Don't know about that, but would not be surprised.
More importantly though, I think SSPX, and I am fairly certain that Michaelites and sedevacantists, also reject NFP. So arguably NFP is indeed a post-Vatican II innovation.
Correct: The problem of Natural Family Planning - SSPX
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2017, 06:13:23 PM »
I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

Are you thinking of...

Quote
The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful.

-- John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2017, 07:48:19 PM »
Quote
Ritually, just for half a century and quite imperfectly.  Not to mention like Pope FI changing the CCEO a couple of years ago without any consultation.  Uniformity is as Roman as spaghetti.
That would have been news to St. Pius X, for example, who approved the Russian Catholic Church with the famous line "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" (not more, not less, not other) than Russian Orthodox practice.
What one pope would have thought about one event is irrelevant.  The actions of popes in general towards Eastern Catholics have been nothing short of ecclesial tyranny.  Only after VII has the Vatican tried to curb its instincts to thwart the identity of particular Churches, yet every now and then it shows that it still bears its old colors.  These are the facts, very present to all Eastern Catholics close to the leaders of their Churches, whether at the local, eparchical or metropolitan on patriarchal levels.

Quote from: The young fogey
But anyway, if you're as set on leaving the church as you sound, you won't let facts get in your way. You've found a good place online for moral support. Your will be done. I think I've told you the risk. What would you be giving up your Maronite Rite for, its Syriac parent or Byzantine Orthodoxy?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2017, 08:08:36 PM »
The sedevacantist scenario can happen. It never has. I don't like Pope Francis as a person. That doesn't matter. Dumb remarks on a plane aren't ex cathedra teaching. The Pope has a narrowly defined job of defending Catholic teaching. If he stops doing that job, he's no longer Pope. And that's not for me to decide. My guess is an ecclesiastical second-in-command would declare the see vacant. Really, if it happened, it wouldn't affect me. I'm a layman (I was a reader). The Pope is a name the priest whispers in the Roman Canon (anaphora at Mass) or chants a couple of times in the Byzantine Rite. The faith goes on.
Who is the 2nd in command of the Catholic Church?  Is he recognized by the pope?  Is he identified in canon law?  Is he also infallible to point out that an infallible pope has fallibly fallen into heresy? 

But what good is an infallible pope when he can go around trashing Holy Tradition and the faithful, causing scandal and disunity, as if like the Lord intended, as long as he doesn't "sit down"?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:09:58 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2017, 08:21:49 PM »
Quote
Considering how Rome has now cast itself in the role of being the tentpole for a large tent of wildly different traditions, a la Anglican Communion...

Has it? I see one set of teachings and many cultures, plus some who dissent from the teachings, not Rome's fault.

Quote
...why aren't you worried that Rome to go in the same direction as Canterbury? (The main Anglican Communion lacking the majority of traditionalists these days).

Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Quote
Do you think that the neocatechumenal way and other similar movements are redeemable? Why or why not?

I'm fine with them if they accept our teachings and they don't get in the way of me being old-fashioned high-church liturgically.

Quote
What has made you comfortable with the theology of the Pope of Rome's position undergoing development?

Indefectibility, infallibility, and non-contradiction.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:23:54 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2017, 08:30:30 PM »
Quote
Considering how Rome has now cast itself in the role of being the tentpole for a large tent of wildly different traditions, a la Anglican Communion...

Has it? I see one set of teachings and many cultures, plus some who dissent from the teachings, not Rome's fault.

Quote
...why aren't you worried that Rome to go in the same direction as Canterbury? (The main Anglican Communion lacking the majority of traditionalists these days).

Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Quote
Do you think that the neocatechumenal way and other similar movements are redeemable? Why or why not?

I'm fine with them if they accept our teachings and they don't get in the way of me being old-fashioned high-church liturgically.

Quote
What has made you comfortable with the theology of the Pope of Rome's position undergoing development?

Indefectibility, infallibility, and non-contradiction.
With all due respect, you're begging the question regarding Rome's "indefectibility, infallibility, and non-contradiction." What I am more interested in knowing is why you are comfortable believing that when it hasn't been a given throughout Christian history that the Bishop of Rome (when speaking ex cathedra, etc., etc.) was infallible.

So allow me to rephrase my one question, and then I'll revisit the others: What made you comfortable with the development of the Roman papacy? Any historical events and works of theology that led you to be comfortable with it? Any sort of argument you found convincing?
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2017, 08:36:27 PM »
Because in all that development, I see that the Pope has defended the essentials: God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images in worship.

By the way, development of doctrine isn't our doctrine, just an idea of John Henry Cardinal Newman that Catholicism allows.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:36:43 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2017, 08:39:36 PM »
the Trinity,
To you your trinity, and to us, ours. Not the same thing though.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2017, 08:42:20 PM »
Because in all that development, I see that the Pope has defended the essentials: God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images in worship.

By the way, development of doctrine isn't our doctrine, just an idea of John Henry Cardinal Newman that Catholicism allows.
Again though you're begging the question. You're assuming that Rome has defended these things, when many (including myself) would question the idea that Rome has defended the role of bishops and the Mass/Divine Liturgy. Assuming the Pope got all these things right, and therefore that he is to be followed, doesn't seem like sound logic to me. Was there something specifically regarding the development of the papacy you found convincing? That is something I think would be most illuminating for us to understand your decision to be in communion with Rome.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:44:54 PM by thenerdpaul »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2017, 09:03:09 PM »
Quote
To you your trinity, and to us, ours. Not the same thing though.

I expected that. The Byzantine Orthodox see us the way they used to see the Oriental Orthodox and vice versa, basically as not really Christian but like the old Arian Church, etc., sort of Mormons who claim to have apostolic bishops, etc. Obviously I disagree: Rome doesn't teach two Holy Spirits (one from the Father, one from the Son)/four Persons, etc.

Quote
Again though you're begging the question. You're assuming that Rome has defended these things, when many (including myself) would question the idea that Rome has defended the role of bishops and the Mass/Divine Liturgy.


The historical record: the first Protestants ranted against us for insisting on those things. You might be repeating the claim that the Orthodox view of those things is completely different from ours. Again, unsurprisingly, I disagree.

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Was there something specifically regarding the development of the papacy you found convincing? That is something I think would be most illuminating for us to understand your decision to be in communion with Rome.

I find no good reason not to be communion with Rome and no good reason to deny that my English, German, and Spanish ancestors in the Middle Ages were true apostolic Christians.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2017, 09:13:42 PM »
Quote
To you your trinity, and to us, ours. Not the same thing though.

I expected that. The Byzantine Orthodox see us the way they used to see the Oriental Orthodox and vice versa, basically as not really Christian but like the old Arian Church, etc., sort of Mormons who claim to have apostolic bishops, etc. Obviously I disagree: Rome doesn't teach two Holy Spirits (one from the Father, one from the Son)/four Persons, etc.

Quote
Again though you're begging the question. You're assuming that Rome has defended these things, when many (including myself) would question the idea that Rome has defended the role of bishops and the Mass/Divine Liturgy.


The historical record: the first Protestants ranted against us for insisting on those things. You might be repeating the claim that the Orthodox view of those things is completely different from ours. Again, unsurprisingly, I disagree.

Quote
Was there something specifically regarding the development of the papacy you found convincing? That is something I think would be most illuminating for us to understand your decision to be in communion with Rome.

I find no good reason not to be communion with Rome and no good reason to deny that my English, German, and Spanish ancestors in the Middle Ages were true apostolic Christians.
On a side note, I don't think anyone has accused Rome of believing in two Holy Spirits. But moving on.

I get what you're saying regarding the Protestants, but at the end of the day they are to be rejected as they taught innovations. It's a made-up faith(s), as you said. But regarding the papacy, the burden of proof is on Rome: the papacy evolved, not us. So using the Protestant comparison doesn't really work. No-one is denying that the west's Christianity was real, but what we do question is individual developments within that. You keep saying stuff but you're not explaining your thought process, and that's what I keep trying to get you to say.

Again: What made you comfortable with the developments of the Roman papacy?

This shouldn't be too hard for you to explain, as clearly there was a shift in your understanding of things when you left Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:14:26 PM by thenerdpaul »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2017, 09:33:05 PM »
Quote
But regarding the papacy, the burden of proof is on Rome: the papacy evolved, not us.

The Orthodox "evolved" on contraception (and I know the counterclaim that we're hypocrites) and your take on divorce and remarriage was wrong even before the schism (sin was around before the schism; the point?).

Quote
You keep saying stuff but you're not explaining your thought process, and that's what I keep trying to get you to say.

Maybe I'm not bright enough to understand the question; I thought I answered you.

There is a set of essentials. Rome has always defended them, so the developments of the papacy are fine. The Orthodox claim we got those essentials wrong at some point when what really happened is the Pope went from being in the Christianized Roman Empire to being outside it, so the empire wrongly concluded that he, the French, the English, the Germans, et al. were no longer in the church, not even with true baptism per se.

Quote
This shouldn't be too hard for you to explain, as clearly there was a shift in your understanding of things when you left Orthodoxy.

The shift in my understanding back to Catholicism was long before I left Orthodoxy; I left when it was easy to do so (the priest I was attached to suddenly left town, and no, I wasn't angry with him).

I don't expect the Orthodox to approve my use of Byzantine Orthodox practices now; I'm not claiming to be Orthodox or coming into your churches expecting to receive Communion because "we're really the same." I just thought that my getting into the phronema by using the same prayers as you (as Deacon Lance and other Byzantine Catholics do) gives me some insight that other conservative Catholics might not have so it counts for something.

Again I'm thinking in terms of all your bishops agreeing to become Catholic and I also acknowledge that this will probably never happen.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2017, 10:25:41 PM »
Maybe I'm not bright

Best thing you said thus far
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2017, 10:56:07 PM »
Cool!
Be easy, por favor (in English: "please"), Mor Ephrem. Be your inner Christian.

I have an inner Trucker, too, btw. He's unemployed, but he tries to keep busy.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:00:14 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2017, 11:07:54 PM »
The shift in my understanding back to Catholicism was long before I left Orthodoxy; I left when it was easy to do so (the priest I was attached to suddenly left town, and no, I wasn't angry with him).

You're being less than honest here.  Clearly, you were deeply hurt by someone or perhaps a group of people of influence in (or connected in some way to) your Orthodox parish.   I seem to recall you making emotional comments on this board about the Orthodox communion being a "nasty, narrow little church". or words to that effect, shortly after you left Orthodoxy. I believe that this hurt may well have contributed to you posting this latest venture, which is, to say the least, an extremely provocative thread.  And no, I'm not happy that you were hurt so badly.

Quote
I don't expect the Orthodox to approve my use of Byzantine Orthodox practices now; I'm not claiming to be Orthodox or coming into your churches expecting to receive Communion because "we're really the same."

Except that you have consistently espoused the opinion that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are exactly the same thing:

IMO the Pope's role is the only real difference dividing what's sacramentally the same church. But both sides' hardliners are right that it's a doozy. The only way to union is for RCs to become WRO or Orthodox to become Greek Catholics. Ain't gonna happen, right?

This ecclesiology seems to run through your posts whether you are a  communicant of the Roman Catholic Church or a member of the Orthodox Church.  Except that recently you seem to have been saying something akin to  "Orthodoxy and Catholicism are the same thing, but Catholicism is way better" and have now moved on to "it's either Rome or the abyss."




« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:37:21 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2017, 11:30:19 PM »
Double post.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 11:32:40 PM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


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Re: Summing up
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2017, 11:33:46 PM »
Quote
But regarding the papacy, the burden of proof is on Rome: the papacy evolved, not us.

The Orthodox "evolved" on contraception (and I know the counterclaim that we're hypocrites) and your take on divorce and remarriage was wrong even before the schism (sin was around before the schism; the point?).

Actually, you mean "OUR" take. The only reason the Latin West shifted on divorce and remarriage is because a certain Frankish emperor, after having 5 wives both dead & divorced, decided to rule unilaterally that it was wrong. Meanwhile, until the end of his life, he maintained himself a harem filled with about 5-7 concubines. You are the ones who are innovative in this regard. Not us.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2017, 02:02:33 AM »
The shift in my understanding back to Catholicism was long before I left Orthodoxy; I left when it was easy to do so (the priest I was attached to suddenly left town, and no, I wasn't angry with him).

You're being less than honest here.  Clearly, you were deeply hurt by someone or perhaps a group of people of influence in (or connected in some way to) your Orthodox parish.   I seem to recall you making emotional comments on this board about the Orthodox communion being a "nasty, narrow little church". or words to that effect, shortly after you left Orthodoxy. I believe that this hurt may well have contributed to you posting this latest venture, which is, to say the least, an extremely provocative thread.  And no, I'm not happy that you were hurt so badly.

Quote
I don't expect the Orthodox to approve my use of Byzantine Orthodox practices now; I'm not claiming to be Orthodox or coming into your churches expecting to receive Communion because "we're really the same."

Except that you have consistently espoused the opinion that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are exactly the same thing:

IMO the Pope's role is the only real difference dividing what's sacramentally the same church. But both sides' hardliners are right that it's a doozy. The only way to union is for RCs to become WRO or Orthodox to become Greek Catholics. Ain't gonna happen, right?

This ecclesiology seems to run through your posts whether you are a  communicant of the Roman Catholic Church or a member of the Orthodox Church.  Except that recently you seem to have been saying something akin to  "Orthodoxy and Catholicism are the same thing, but Catholicism is way better" and have now moved on to "it's either Rome or the abyss."

This is a valid point; some parishes will hurt you, as will some priests.  Ive experienced it myself.  It also happens in Catholicism.   Its not really a good reason to change denominations however, unless this abuse is systemic, for example, the various systems of social control imposed in cults like Scientology or even in Mormonism, which as a religion demands sacrifices from its adherents much more so than Orthodoxy, Catholicism or typical Protestant churches.

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Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2017, 04:57:54 AM »
Pravoslavbob, your first guess is wrong: nobody in my Orthodox former parishes (there were two of them, one for many years) was particularly nasty. The current priest's wife/choirmistress at the second, longtime one will tell you I was noticeably depressed. My problem was and is with Orthodoxy, not with parish people. A religion that excludes Western Catholicism because of cultural chauvinism, a false accusation of heresy because of culture, is, I believe, nasty and narrow.

The true story in brief: ironically, what kept me nominally Orthodox for so/too long was I was attached to the longtime parish priest of the second place, a former/crypto-Catholic who grew up before Vatican II; he knew Orthodoxy's claim vs. Catholicism isn't true and wanted to come back but "my people need me" plus the pride that most Byzantine Catholics don't do the Byzantine Rite in its fullness like he could. He was my only real tie, so when he left, I did shortly afterwards. When he left, I didn't have to cover for him anymore, having to appear Orthodox in order to protect him from the Orthodox authorities. (He is now dead so that's no longer an issue.)

In 2007 Pope Benedict XVI removed all restrictions on the traditional Mass I usually go to (the other traditional Mass I go to, the Byzantine Liturgy, I attend once a month), and at the end of 2011 he implemented a reform/correction to the text of the modern English Mass so it is closer to its Latin original than before, better reflecting our teachings. I've been openly Catholic again since.

I did and do believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are really the same, which is what Catholicism teaches. We recognize your orders and Eucharist and we believe that doctrinally you are Catholicism as described by the first seven ecumenical councils. Because Orthodoxy hasn't had an eighth to proclaim anything anti-Catholic, unlike the Protestants' defined doctrines, we give Orthodox who aren't former Catholics the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean I go to your churches on Sunday expecting Communion; it means Catholicism and I believe reunion is extremely doable and we don't believe never-Catholic Orthodox are personally guilty of schism or heresy.

Because Catholicism gives never-Catholic Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, I'm not trying to get individual conversions from them (we quietly accept those but they're not our main objective in approaching the Orthodox). I'm only trying to give them something to think about, answering questions about the Catholic Church, in the hope, I admit unlikely, that one day all your bishops will agree to join us.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2017, 05:54:42 AM »
Orthodox doctrine is simply Catholicism as described in the first seven councils. Orthodox opinion is often nasty and narrow regarding Catholicism.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2017, 06:23:37 AM »
1. I don't think RCs teach two Holy Spirits, rather the teach a Holy Spirit who is "a bond of love between Father and Son", so not really a person in the Orthodox sense.

2. Pope Francis' post-synodal exhortation Amoris laetitia is getting closer to the Orthodox ikonomia concerning marriage. In other words: If we Orthodox are wrong on this, the RCC has a problem with its pope. And indeed, some RC theologians seem to think so, feeling the need to "correct" their infallible one through a public letter.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2017, 06:24:19 AM »
I'm only trying to give them something to think about, answering questions about the Catholic Church, in the hope, I admit unlikely, that one day all your bishops will agree to join us.

All bishops have to agree with one bishop (of Rome)? It's against the Creed; meaning of the word Καθολικὴν in Greek, جامعة in Arabic, соборная in Church Slavonic - i.e. Catholic, universal, conciliar - that only one bishops has the power over the Church.

You didn't say anything regarding my posts about the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church ;)


Orthodox doctrine is simply Catholicism as described in the first seven councils. Orthodox opinion is often nasty and narrow regarding Catholicism.

Orthodox is not only teaching of the councils. It's about all to live according to these teaching, to live these teachings. And Catholicism does not practice it. It's clear if you see the liturgical, fasting and sacramental praxis. And it's not about differences Western vs Eastern, beacause it has been always varied and that's ok.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2017, 06:50:30 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.

Dominika: Thank you for the report "on the ground" about Ukrainian Catholics in Poland being nationalistic, not something I defend.

Quote
All bishops have to agree with one bishop (of Rome)?

More like the bishop of Rome has to agree with the unchanging Catholic faith, and the world's bishops must agree with his office (not necessarily the man) on that faith.

Quote
Orthodoxy is not only teaching of the councils. It's about all to live according to these teaching, to live these teachings.

I know; much of post-schism Orthodox opinion is anti-Catholic and of course I believe it's wrong. Because it's not doctrine, Catholicism gives it the benefit of the doubt.

Quote
And Catholicism does not practice it. It's clear if you see the liturgical, fasting and sacramental praxis. And it's not about differences Western vs Eastern, beacause it has been always varied and that's ok.


The second and third sentences seem to contradict but I understand you. I don't fast much. I can't. And I don't care what the Orthodox think of that, or on the other hand, because of economy (fine in matters like this that aren't doctrine, just rules), many of them probably don't either.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 06:51:59 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2017, 06:51:06 AM »
For anyone curious, the parish priest that the Young Fogey claims was yearning to return to Catholicism was Archimandrite Athanasy Mastalski. No, it is not true that the man was secretly yearning to become Catholic again.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #100 on: October 02, 2017, 06:54:29 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.

Do you admit you have a problem with your pope then?

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #101 on: October 02, 2017, 06:55:51 AM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.

There's no proof in print or online from Fr. Athanasy of course so you will believe what you will. Just know that although I say things you don't agree with and although I might be mistaken on some things, I will never lie to you.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2017, 06:58:56 AM »
I know; much of post-schism Orthodox opinion is anti-Catholic and of course I believe it's wrong. Because it's not doctrine, Catholicism gives it the benefit of the doubt.

Orthodox doctrine before and after 1054 is the same. We do follow St. Photios the Great, who died in 880.

We don't need to give Roman Catholicism the benefit of doubt. We simply and plainly admit that there is a wrong spirit in there. One who "proceeds from the Father and the Son".

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2017, 07:01:09 AM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.
So you say it's irrelevant if a pope has heretical opinions? Doesn't need need to believe in official doctrine in order to be a legitimate pope?


Btw, why do you think the RC doctrine on marriage is so great? To me, it is an abstraction not taking into account human weakness. Have you ever been married?

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2017, 07:16:37 AM »
Btw, why do you think the RC doctrine on marriage is so great? To me, it is an abstraction not taking into account human weakness. Have you ever been married?

And it's not forever, but only to death.
And even the way of receiign this sacrmaent is different: in Orthodoxy it's rather union and blesisng given by priest to 2 people willing it, while in Catholicism it's somehign mroe juidicila, giving the promise to each other and actually giving the sacrament to each other, that's sanctioned by priest.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2017, 08:09:39 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.

That is historically not true.

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Epistola XXXVI. Si maritus cujus uxor in captivitatem fuerat abducta, alteram acceperit, revertente prima, secunda mulier debet excludi.

Innocentius Probo

[Col.0602B] Conturbatio procellae barbaricae facultati legum intulit casum. Nam bene constituto matrimonio inter Fortunium et Ursam captivitatis incursus fecerat naevum, nisi sancta religionis statuta providerent. Cum enim in captivitate praedicta Ursa mulier teneretur; aliud conjugium cum Restituta Fortunius memoratus inisse cognoscitur (34, q. 1 et 2, c. 2; Ivo p. 8, c. 245). Sed favore Domini reversa Ursa nos adiit, et nullo diffitente, uxorem se memorati perdocuit. Quare, domine fili merito illustris, statuimus, fide catholica suffragante, illud esse conjugium, quod erat primitus gratia divina fundatum; [Col.0603A] conventumque secundae mulieris, priore superstite, nec divortio ejecta, nullo pacto posse esse legitimum.

Letter 36. Whether a husband whose wife has been led into captivity and has married another woman should, with the first wife having returned, divorce the second wife.

Innocent to Probus

The confusion of the violent barbarian has brought a legal case before my power. For their attack has wrought a blight upon the good marriage between Fortanius and the captive Ursa, unless they have provided a holy statute of religion. Indeed, the woman Ursa was taken into the aforementioned captivity, Fortunius is known to have entered into another marriage with Restituta. But with the favor of the Lord, the returned Ursa came before us, and with no denial, proclaimed convincingly that she was the wife of times past. By which means, young illustrious lord with merit,  we have ruled, having favored the universal faith, that [first] marriage to stand, because it was formerly founded with divine grace, and that covenant with the second woman, as long as the first wife lives or is not divorced, cannot by any agreement be legitimate.

Pope Innocent I to Probus, Epistula 36, Patrologia Latina 20: 602A – 603A

Quote
De his, qui adhibitam sibi uxorem reliquerunt et aliam sociaverunt. Nulli liceat, excepta causa fornicationis, adhibitam uxorem relinquere et deinde aliam copulare; alioquin transgressorem priori convenit sociari coniugio. Sin autem vir et uxor divertere pro sola religiosa inter se consenserint vita, nullatenus sine conscientia episocopi fiat, ut ab eo singulariter proviso constituantur loco. Nam uxore nolente aut altero eorum etiam pro tali re matrimonium non solvatur.

Concerning those men, who have divorced [their] married wives and marry another. Let no one, except for the cause of fornication, divorce their married wife and then marry another. Otherwise, it is suitable for the transgressor to be married to the former spouse. If however a man and wife consent to divorce between themselves for the sake of a monastic life, in no way shall it be so without the joint knowledge of the bishop, so that they may be stationed by him in a single prepared location. For [if] due to an unwilling wife or her husband, let it not be dissolved for the sake of the marriage.

Pope Eugenius II, Synod of Rome 826 AD, canon 36, MGH, Concilia aevi Karolini, 2.1: 582

« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 08:10:48 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #106 on: October 02, 2017, 10:23:11 AM »
I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

Are you thinking of...

Quote
The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful.

-- John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

Note how every time this is brought up, the Rome apologists who were beating their drum of "we haven't budged on contraception!" fall conspicuously silent.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2017, 11:01:41 AM »
I thought I also read St. Augustine specifically condemning NFP somewhere, too.

Are you thinking of...

Quote
The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful.

-- John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

Note how every time this is brought up, the Rome apologists who were beating their drum of "we haven't budged on contraception!" fall conspicuously silent.

Well, even they must enjoy sex...
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Offline Isaac14

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2017, 03:16:26 PM »
Mr. Fogey,

You keep harping on how the Catholic church is correct on the question of divorce/remarriage. From a theoretical standpoint, I get it. But having lived through divorce and, although I’m Orthodox, having obtained an annulment of my first marriage from a Catholic tribunal so that my now wife (who’s Catholic) could receive permission to marry me.

My experiences with both sides of this issue have led me to the firm conclusion that the only difference between the Orthodox and Catholics on the matter of divorce is that the Catholic Church goes to exceedingly great lengths to say that divorce isn’t divorce.

Very basically, my ex-wife ended our marriage by walking out and allowing for no means to achieve reconciliation. I was willing to do so, to try to sort things out and communicated that to her, but she gave no response. We were married as protestants, then had become Orthodox in the last year of that marriage.

In my case the basis for annulment was “grave lack of discretion” on my part at the time of the first marriage. Considering that my testimony to the Tribunal was that I understood and intended for that first marriage to be for life, there’s no lack of discretion on that point. This leaves me to understand my lack of discretion was being a poor judge of my ex-wife’s character. Even this leads to trouble, because depending on the character issue in question, someone’s ability to validly marry isn’t identifiable until after the fact. Not to mention, it leaves no room for the operation of mercy or grace in one’s life or in how we relate to others. And I’m not even getting into how thorough the process was; how my file, if printed, was probably 250-350 pages. Testimony was required from parents, friends, clergy, etc., etc., etc.

On the Orthodox side, it was a much less formal, but still thorough, process. Perhaps atypically, I was able to have a conversation with my Bishop about my first marriage, the civil divorce, and my intended wife. I also had a great deal of conversation (both in confession, and just in general) with my Priest. I know he and my Bishop also spoke on this issue. They ultimately judged that it was in my best interest (i.e. for my salvation) to be given permission to remarry.

I don’t think there are any of us Orthodox who would say divorce is ever a good thing. Personally, I think divorce is a tragedy and, in my case, reflective of my failings/sins and my ex-wife’s failings/sins. And even more so, the tragedy in broken marriage comes from the realization that marriage is an icon of Christ and his bride, the Church and we (or at least me) fall short reflecting that.

I know that Matthew 19:6 & Mark 10:9 are given as the reason that divorce is impossible. I would love for someone with a good knowledge of Greek to comment on whether “let no one separate” carries the meaning of either “man can not separate” or “To separate is to not reflect what Christ intends marriage to be, but doesn’t leave you hanging if it does happen.”

-Erik

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2017, 10:41:29 PM »
A religion that excludes Western Catholicism because of cultural chauvinism, a false accusation of heresy because of culture, is, I believe, nasty and narrow.
I agree.  If you find it, please, let us know so that we can avoid it too.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2017, 10:44:38 PM »
1. I don't think RCs teach two Holy Spirits, rather the teach a Holy Spirit who is "a bond of love between Father and Son", so not really a person in the Orthodox sense.
Worse yet.  If the Son is the result of the Father's love itself and the Holy Spirit is the result of the love between the Father and the Son, according to St. Augustine's formulation, then, love being an act of the will, both the Son and the Holy Spirit are willed into existence, making them creatures.  Of course, it could just be St. Augustine being himself and formulating extremely difficult ideas with a poetic license, but the Catholic Church actually teaches this.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #111 on: October 02, 2017, 10:44:56 PM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #112 on: October 02, 2017, 10:45:11 PM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #113 on: October 03, 2017, 12:24:18 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.

The principle of the development of doctrine was further expressed as a tenet of the Roman Catholic Church by St. Henry Newman.  This was a serious error on his part, and if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when", we will need the Roman pontiff to issue an encyclical rejecting the principle of the development of doctrine in favor of the alternative idea, the Orthodox idea, of one ancient Apostolic faith, unchanging in doctrine; all that changes is the means by which we proclaim the Gospel in response to various heresies and confusions, to address the ever-changing spiritual diseases of humanity.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #114 on: October 03, 2017, 03:30:20 AM »
Gorazd: The Pope's opinions aren't our doctrine so any problem I have with the current Pope would be irrelevant.
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?

Care to expand a bit?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #115 on: October 03, 2017, 04:58:28 AM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2017, 08:36:14 AM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...

Increased piety would make unity harder, not easier. The best chance for unity is for both sides to be very lukewarm. Unless you got some emperor up your sleeve to enforce things?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #117 on: October 03, 2017, 09:11:24 AM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...
And you think a study conducted among the Orthodox would yield significantly better results? 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #118 on: October 03, 2017, 09:22:41 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.

The principle of the development of doctrine was further expressed as a tenet of the Roman Catholic Church by St. Henry Newman.  This was a serious error on his part, and if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when", we will need the Roman pontiff to issue an encyclical rejecting the principle of the development of doctrine in favor of the alternative idea, the Orthodox idea, of one ancient Apostolic faith, unchanging in doctrine; all that changes is the means by which we proclaim the Gospel in response to various heresies and confusions, to address the ever-changing spiritual diseases of humanity.

The way I have heard it explained, I don’t think development of doctrine necessarily contradicts unchanging dogma.  The principles seem sound, but their “development” lead to a different path.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2017, 09:27:59 AM »
Right, Newman's idea was basically that some dogmas remained implicit in the faith but were elaborated through history as the need arose. The fact of such development is undeniable for all Christians, Orthodox included, even if some of the specific doctrines Newman was trying to trace (e.g. Papal supremacy) were in fact innovations.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #120 on: October 03, 2017, 09:31:43 AM »
Gorazd: Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage makes sense and is unchangeable.
I agree that it makes sense, but it has changed.  The Catholic Church has a long tradition of changing teachings and then, when the voices pointing them out turn too loud, turning the changes into dogmas.

The principle of the development of doctrine was further expressed as a tenet of the Roman Catholic Church by St. Henry Newman.  This was a serious error on his part, and if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when", we will need the Roman pontiff to issue an encyclical rejecting the principle of the development of doctrine in favor of the alternative idea, the Orthodox idea, of one ancient Apostolic faith, unchanging in doctrine; all that changes is the means by which we proclaim the Gospel in response to various heresies and confusions, to address the ever-changing spiritual diseases of humanity.

The way I have heard it explained, I don’t think development of doctrine necessarily contradicts unchanging dogma.  The principles seem sound, but their “development” lead to a different path.

+1  Having read the documents by Newman I don't think he meant to go any further in 'developing doctrine' than, say, St. Vincent.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #121 on: October 03, 2017, 10:48:09 AM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #122 on: October 03, 2017, 10:30:11 PM »
Pravoslavbob, your first guess is wrong: nobody in my Orthodox former parishes (there were two of them, one for many years) was particularly nasty. The current priest's wife/choirmistress at the second, longtime one will tell you I was noticeably depressed. My problem was and is with Orthodoxy, not with parish people. A religion that excludes Western Catholicism because of cultural chauvinism, a false accusation of heresy because of culture, is, I believe, nasty and narrow.

The true story in brief: ironically, what kept me nominally Orthodox for so/too long was I was attached to the longtime parish priest of the second place, a former/crypto-Catholic who grew up before Vatican II; he knew Orthodoxy's claim vs. Catholicism isn't true and wanted to come back but "my people need me" plus the pride that most Byzantine Catholics don't do the Byzantine Rite in its fullness like he could. He was my only real tie, so when he left, I did shortly afterwards. When he left, I didn't have to cover for him anymore, having to appear Orthodox in order to protect him from the Orthodox authorities. (He is now dead so that's no longer an issue.)

In 2007 Pope Benedict XVI removed all restrictions on the traditional Mass I usually go to (the other traditional Mass I go to, the Byzantine Liturgy, I attend once a month), and at the end of 2011 he implemented a reform/correction to the text of the modern English Mass so it is closer to its Latin original than before, better reflecting our teachings. I've been openly Catholic again since.

I did and do believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are really the same, which is what Catholicism teaches. We recognize your orders and Eucharist and we believe that doctrinally you are Catholicism as described by the first seven ecumenical councils. Because Orthodoxy hasn't had an eighth to proclaim anything anti-Catholic, unlike the Protestants' defined doctrines, we give Orthodox who aren't former Catholics the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean I go to your churches on Sunday expecting Communion; it means Catholicism and I believe reunion is extremely doable and we don't believe never-Catholic Orthodox are personally guilty of schism or heresy.

Because Catholicism gives never-Catholic Orthodox the benefit of the doubt, I'm not trying to get individual conversions from them (we quietly accept those but they're not our main objective in approaching the Orthodox). I'm only trying to give them something to think about, answering questions about the Catholic Church, in the hope, I admit unlikely, that one day all your bishops will agree to join us.

I don't have time here to go into why your theology is wrong.  You didn't really address Dominika's point about the papacy anyway, so I'm not sure you would address any of the points I would care to make.  The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church.  I truly hope and pray that Rome and Orthodoxy will be united again some day, even though I don't think it likely.  But with God, all things are possible.


To "sum up", despite your protests to the contrary, what you are doing here is proselytizing  Orthodox Christians with your own personal version of Roman Catholicism.  This is contrary to how your own Church says its people should relate to the Orthodox.   It baffles me no end that you seem to think that you have unique insights on Christian culture, ecumenical relations etc. to "share" with others.

The Orthodox certainly can be unnecessarily rude and even sectarian in outlook;  there is no need or even an excuse for this any longer in many parts of the world, since historical reasons that made these qualities understandable have passed their "best before" dates.  But this doesn't have much to do with the Orthodox rejection of erroneous Roman Catholic beliefs.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 10:36:37 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #123 on: October 03, 2017, 10:47:12 PM »
That's okay if you think I'm wrong or didn't answer you well enough.

Your board, your church. So I can't post to discourage inquirers from leaving Catholicism. I respect you for not being relativists, taking your true-church claim seriously as we do ours, defending it. My posts' side info IDs me as Catholic; people can PM me with questions. I won't pester your people by starting PMs. My posts right now are about Western Rite Orthodoxy and aren't proselytism. I'm fascinated by what I think are alternative takes on Catholicism because on matters that are not doctrine, we can learn a thing or two from them (you).

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #124 on: October 03, 2017, 11:37:02 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy.
Have you really tried? Have you embraced it? Lived it? Including, actually, above all, the Holy Sacraments?

So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?

Seeking attention.

Bingo!

Your board, your church. So I can't post to discourage inquirers from leaving Catholicism. I respect you for not being relativists, taking your true-church claim seriously as we do ours, defending it. My posts' side info IDs me as Catholic; people can PM me with questions. I won't pester your people by starting PMs. My posts right now are about Western Rite Orthodoxy and aren't proselytism. I'm fascinated by what I think are alternative takes on Catholicism because on matters that are not doctrine, we can learn a thing or two from them (you).
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #125 on: October 04, 2017, 12:10:03 AM »
Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Now this is delicious irony.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #126 on: October 04, 2017, 10:09:14 AM »
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?
Care to expand a bit?

Amoris Laetitia and the Post-Modern Papacy of Pope Francis

Are the letters that Pope Francis writes affirming the interpretation of his writings by other bishops ex catedra or not?  Shrew Roman Catholics would deny it, for otherwise they'd have do admit that Pope Honorius was rightly anathematized by the Sixth Ecumenical Council.  But how couldn't Pope Francis be exercising his office when he confirms changes in the sacramental practice of local Churches?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 10:09:34 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #127 on: October 04, 2017, 10:10:41 AM »
Because the church is indefectible and infallible (which Orthodoxy teaches about itself). Rome is still the apostolic faith as explained by Trent, for example, not a made-up faith from the 1500s that contradicts our teachings.

Now this is delicious irony.

Ironic, but tragically true.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #128 on: October 04, 2017, 05:55:04 PM »
The recent signatures under the recent "correction" of Pope Francis concerning "Amoris Laetitia" shows that the FSSPX has been successful in enlarging the circle of critics beyond their own adherents. If conservative RCs become really convinced that Pope Francis is a heretic, will they elect an antipope? Bishop Bernard Fellay of the FSSPX would be an interesting choice. He is really serious about his faith, and at the same time he is rather diplomatic in his dealings with people and institutions.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #129 on: October 04, 2017, 06:04:17 PM »
The recent signatures under the recent "correction" of Pope Francis concerning "Amoris Laetitia" shows that the FSSPX has been successful in enlarging the circle of critics beyond their own adherents. If conservative RCs become really convinced that Pope Francis is a heretic, will they elect an antipope? Bishop Bernard Fellay of the FSSPX would be an interesting choice. He is really serious about his faith, and at the same time he is rather diplomatic in his dealings with people and institutions.
What would happen is that the critics would get big enough so that the cardinals would start to worry and then they would pressure P.Francis to change, or else he himself would see this. And if it got really bad, the cardinals could reject and depose him.

We are a very long way from that. Catholics are intense enough on the Pope's centrality and authority that it would be very hard for a huge percent of them to get together to make an anti-Pope.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #130 on: October 04, 2017, 07:06:19 PM »
Are they merely the pope's opinions when the sacramental life and discipline in the Church are changed, as in Argentina, Germany, Malta?
Care to expand a bit?

Amoris Laetitia and the Post-Modern Papacy of Pope Francis

Are the letters that Pope Francis writes affirming the interpretation of his writings by other bishops ex catedra or not?  Shrew Roman Catholics would deny it, for otherwise they'd have do admit that Pope Honorius was rightly anathematized by the Sixth Ecumenical Council.  But how couldn't Pope Francis be exercising his office when he confirms changes in the sacramental practice of local Churches?

Thanks.

Well, I guess as long as enough Catholics take fogey's "Water Department Head" point of view, they'll find always find a way to argue around anything the Pope does.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #131 on: October 04, 2017, 07:30:07 PM »
if and when Rome and the Orthodox reunite, and I pray it is a matter of "when"

Let's be realistic... we are far, far, far from this.

Here is a study form Germany many in 2012-2014: http://kath.net/news/50442

Let me resume in English:
54% of priests, 70% of married deacons, 88% of unordained theologians working in parishes and 91% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes go to confession only once a year or less.
Only 58% of priests and 56% of pedagogues of religion working in parishes pray at least once every day. With married deacons it's a bit better, 66%.


What the heck? All these figures are supposed to be at 0% to the first and 100% to the second question...

There are substantial, well known problems with people not going to confession even annually in the Orthodox church.

As far as the "pray at least once a day" bit, I expect that could be warped because a Catholic priest, who is obliged to pray the divine office, might confuse that with ex tempore prayers for other purposes.  We also have impious or marginal priests in our churches, for example, priests and bishops who were originally installed by the KGB, Securitate, etc, in order to monitor the church for the Communist regime and who may or may not have developed an authentic faith since then.  Some might have stuck around simply because they like the feeling of power and get a rush when people kiss their hand, on a par with whatever glories they otherwise hoped to receive from their comrade superiors in the secret police.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #132 on: October 04, 2017, 09:19:59 PM »
Bishop Bernard Fellay of the FSSPX would be an interesting choice. He is really serious about his faith, and at the same time he is rather diplomatic in his dealings with people and institutions.
Though never interested in the SSPX, over the years I too came to admire the irenic tone of Bp. Fellay.  But that's as much as can say about him.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #133 on: October 04, 2017, 09:24:13 PM »
What would happen is that the critics would get big enough so that the cardinals would start to worry and then they would pressure P.Francis to change, or else he himself would see this. And if it got really bad, the cardinals could reject and depose him.  We are a very long way from that. Catholics are intense enough on the Pope's centrality and authority that it would be very hard for a huge percent of them to get together to make an anti-Pope.
But historically that's exactly what divisive popes caused, schisms in the Roman Church by the election of anti-popes.  Unfortunately, the history of the many schisms in the West is scant, since they are a source of shame and pain to the Roman Church, which perhaps keeps historians away to investigate the context that led to them.  So it's difficult to assess the current situation, never forgetting the lingering damage caused by VII, either way.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #134 on: October 04, 2017, 09:27:16 PM »
As far as the "pray at least once a day" bit, I expect that could be warped because a Catholic priest, who is obliged to pray the divine office, might confuse that with ex tempore prayers for other purposes.
A Roman Catholic diocesan priest prays five canonical hours and usually one mass almost every day.  He could hardly miss them a prayers.  However, it's a known fact, whispered in chanceries and rectories, that many priests do not pray the breviary as they should, often by dispensation from their bishop.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #135 on: October 05, 2017, 04:26:06 AM »
There are substantial, well known problems with people not going to confession even annually in the Orthodox church.

With people surely. But what about priests, deacons, and people teaching Orthodoxy in parishes?


As far as the "pray at least once a day" bit, I expect that could be warped because a Catholic priest, who is obliged to pray the divine office, might confuse that with ex tempore prayers for other purposes. 
The original German question is phrased in a way to exclude this.


We also have impious or marginal priests in our churches, for example, priests and bishops who were originally installed by the KGB, Securitate, etc, in order to monitor the church for the Communist regime and who may or may not have developed an authentic faith since then.
I know some of them personally, both in Ukraine and Bulgaria. Both people who started to attend church in Communist times and afterwards. Including priests who were in the KGB (or Bulgarian DS).

While I would disagree with many of their views, I have absolutely no reason to doubt their faith. Yes, they are not great fans of the evil, decadent west and favour a strong, authoritarian state. But in fact their many belief is "symphonia", the harmonious "sounding together" of church and state. They will say communism was basically a good thing, the state taking seriously its task to ensure social quality and preventing a few privileged from stealing the wealth of the country. The only bad thing about communism, they say, is that it rejected the church. That's why they love people politicians who themselves come from the KGB and now have good relations with the church. I am sure you know whom I mean, but this should really be discussed in the Politics Forum.

Back to the topic: All these old Communists in the Orthodox Church are very serious about Orthodox dogma. (According to some, that also worked the other way around, saying Soviet Communism became so dogmatic because of its cultural proximity to Orthodox Christianity).

Whereas I know a lot of RC theologians in the West questioning and relativising the virgin birth, and even the resurrection, old Communist Orthodox are sincerely horrified by this and fail to understand how people can call themselves Christians without holding to basic belief, as defined by the Symbol of the Faith (Niceno-Constantinopolian Creed), which everyone knows by heart since it is sung/recited in every liturgy.