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Offline The young fogey

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Summing up
« on: September 30, 2017, 09:43:18 AM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month. If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed; it would challenge my faith.

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2017, 11:07:16 AM »
Cool!
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2017, 11:10:35 AM »
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.

Why bother with shade, when you can have the outer darkness? ::)
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2017, 11:16:42 AM »

The mid. century British "theologian" pop writers were overhyped and offer no basis for rigorous or interesting thought.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 11:19:54 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2017, 11:39:18 AM »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2017, 11:49:22 AM »

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2017, 12:15:40 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy...

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.

Good to know you found somewhere you fit in. 

I can't follow you there since the Roman Catholic priests and nuns and laity tortured and raped my family.

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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2017, 12:21:42 PM »
Quote from: The young fogey
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce
Rome does too, but plays a name-game and pretends marriages sometimes decades old weren't even real.

Quote from: The young fogey
held the fort against contraception
I'll admit that it is sad that us Orthodox Christians could do much better in this regard. But so could Francis and many other Roman Catholic bishops.

Quote from: The young fogey
and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it
The irony is strong with this one. But this has been pointed out numerous times, and I'm afraid you're still repeating this meme as a valid critique.

Quote from: The young fogey
if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression
The Great Schism made that a little difficult.

Quote from: The young fogey
Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition
In this area I happen to agree with you. Culture though shouldn't trump truth for you. (Again, note the irony in your earlier critique).

Quote from: The young fogey
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.
LOL.

Quote from: The young fogey
Protestantism is a made-up faith.
True. So what though? Most here would probably agree with you on this particular point.
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2017, 01:19:27 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy.
Have you really tried? Have you embraced it? Lived it? Including, actually, above all, the Holy Sacraments?

So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2017, 02:06:01 PM »
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed;
What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:08:15 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2017, 02:07:06 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy.
Have you really tried? Have you embraced it? Lived it? Including, actually, above all, the Holy Sacraments?

So, what are you doing on an Orthodox forum?

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2017, 02:25:54 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month. If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception,

Isn't this kind of a case of
Quote from: Romans 14:4
"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? To his own lord he standeth or falleth. And he shall stand: for God is able to make him stand."

Especially given the preponderance of liberalizing Catholic bishops (which I notice have somehow not driven you into sedevacantism). Why not focus on your own faith and let God sort the bishops, remarried, and users of contraception out?

and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it,

By the same measure isn't that what Byzcath is? I could just as easily argue that it's idolatrous for all these cultures to insist on their sui iuris special privileges and not just shut up and learn Latin.

In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.

What about the Old Catholics? What about the Sedes?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2017, 02:27:54 PM »
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed;
What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?

Good point.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2017, 02:36:43 PM »
If it didn't practice remarriage after divorce, held the fort against contraception, and was more than an idealization of Byzantine culture shading into idolatry of it, if it really was a universal church with a generations-old authentically Western rite/expression (Eastern Catholics are Eastern Christianity in Catholicism; Western Rite Orthodoxy is a small, convert phenomenon, not a living tradition), I'd be very impressed;
What do you think is your number 1 thing?

Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
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Offline WPM

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 02:38:32 PM »
The question of 'why be Orthodox?' what does it mean? etc.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:55:42 PM by thenerdpaul »
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2017, 03:02:10 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2017, 03:05:05 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month...
You call this trying Orthodoxy?  No, you most definitely did not try Orthodoxy.

Quote from: The young fogey
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss. Protestantism is a made-up faith.
The more distant a community puts itself from the faith of the Apostles, through either development or reform of doctrine, it just wanders away. 
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2017, 03:10:34 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.

Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 03:16:58 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2017, 03:20:02 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 03:23:33 PM »
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month...
You call this trying Orthodoxy?  No, you most definitely did not try Orthodoxy.


He was chrismated Orthodox, belonged to a parish for many years, and was ordained a reader.  He tried it.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 03:28:53 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty. 
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 03:29:30 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.

Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
No he recognizes the Latin bishops treated us like garbage.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 03:30:44 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty.
Uh, no. That would be the opposite of what I was looking for. You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 03:34:28 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 03:34:42 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 03:47:11 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty.
Uh, no. That would be the opposite of what I was looking for. You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
Sorry, I thought you questioning when and how Greek Catholics converted in America.  Here you go:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-ussrs-catholic-martyrs-suffered-but-they-suffered-for-god-21120

I would also think the resurgence of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and Slovakia after Communism fell should serve as proof.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 03:49:45 PM »
You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
The NerdPaul,

My understanding is that under Joseph Stalin's rule, there was a general suppression of religion, and Stalin killed or imprisoned numerous Eastern Orthodox and Catholic priests. IIRC, Eastern Catholicism was banned, and so the Eastern Catholics and their churches de facto had to either join the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox, which were still officially recognized by the government.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic, so I don't think it's proof that the Eastern Catholics "developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time". Many North African Muslims could be very loyal to Islam during the Crusades, but I doubt they were as loyal 100 years after the Arab Conquest. Besides, since there were millions of ECs before WWII, then even if there were thousands of martyrs as Deacon Lance wrote, isn't it doubtful statistically that most Eastern Catholics refused to join the RC and EO churches and were martyred?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 03:51:33 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 03:51:46 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2017, 03:57:57 PM »
You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
The NerdPaul,

My understanding is that under Joseph Stalin's rule, there was a general suppression of religion, and Stalin killed or imprisoned numerous Eastern Orthodox and Catholic priests. IIRC, Eastern Catholicism was banned, and so the Eastern Catholics and their churches de facto had to either join the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox, which were still officially recognized by the government.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic, so I don't think it's proof that the Eastern Catholics "developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time". Many North African Muslims could be very loyal to Islam during the Crusades, but I doubt they were as loyal 100 years after the Arab Conquest. Besides, since there were millions of ECs before WWII, then even if there were thousands of martyrs as Deacon Lance wrote, isn't it doubtful statistically that most Eastern Catholics refused to join the RC and EO churches and were martyred?
No, it's not doubtful at all, in fact it is rather believable that this would happen under Stalin's regime. But I wasn't able to find a source online, hence the reason I asked for it. And it has since been provided.
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 03:59:58 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.

But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 04:05:35 PM »
fierce loyalty
hundreds of parishes join the Orthodox Church once they leave the Old World
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.

Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
No he recognizes the Latin bishops treated us like garbage.

In order to force you to give up your cultural idolatry. Call it tough love.


Again, this is not my opinion, just what I think fogey's position reduces down to. If the Orthodox are byz-olaters, then Bishop Ireland should be his hero.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2017, 04:14:42 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 04:18:15 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2017, 04:31:41 PM »
No, it's not doubtful at all, in fact it is rather believable that this would happen under Stalin's regime. But I wasn't able to find a source online, hence the reason I asked for it. And it has since been provided.
I know what you mean, and the source shows that there was persecution, which is very wrong. But in order to show that they were fiercely loyal to Eastern Catholicism over Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, statistics would be helpful, like how many of all Greek Catholics were persecuted, was there another factor than religion for the persecution, like cooperation with the Nazis, etc.

To give an example, in the Jewish and Armenian Holocausts, the Jews and Armenians killed number in the millions, a big majority of their population in the countries affected. Or to give another example, after living under Muslim rule for 1200 years, we can say that the 5-10% of Christians living in Arab countries have to be fiercely loyal to hang on to their faith. But in the case of Ukraine today, IIRC about 1/4-1/3 of Ukrainians are Eastern Catholic, which is somewhere around what it was before WWII. I'm not saying there was minimal persecution, I just think statistics would be helpful.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 04:37:05 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2017, 06:19:22 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.

But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
Came back?  The Eparchy of Chelms was liquidated by the Tsar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Chełm_Eparchy
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2017, 06:26:25 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2017, 06:44:21 PM »
Anyway, if I may, I would like to return this thread somewhat to the original topic.

At the end of the day, OP, you did join Orthodoxy for a time and participated in it at a substantive level. I disagree with you, but I'd be interested in hearing what caused to to have these opinions. Your "Rome or the abyss" line got me thinking: are you implying that Orthodoxy is a sort of Protestantism? If so, why do our various schisms and camps bother you more than Rome's? Or is my assessment of what you said incorrect?
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2017, 06:49:59 PM »
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.

The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.

But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
Came back?  The Eparchy of Chelms was liquidated by the Tsar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Chełm_Eparchy

What we call now eparchy of Lublin and Chełm (of the Polish Orthodox Church) is sometimes called the old capital of the Polish Orthodoxy. And this eparchy, together with Podlasie region, gave to the Church the new martyrs (Męczennicy Chełmscy i Podlascy). The only unfortunate fact that it came back to Orthodoxy because of Russians (and many were, I'm repeating, not against Orthodoxy, but against Russians). But for decades they don't have any influence on the eparchy and, very slowly, it's becoming more vivid.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2017, 07:39:47 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 07:43:57 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2017, 07:54:27 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2017, 09:12:51 PM »
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.



What does Mirror Universe Evil Kira have to do with this thread?  Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?

That said, DS9, yum.  Rather more appealing than reading my faith abused by some chap in a fedora.  I think I shall tune in via Netflix presently. 

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2017, 09:25:59 PM »
Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?


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Re: Summing up
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2017, 09:34:54 PM »
I tried Pepsi and I hated it.  Then I went for the real thing....Coca-Cola.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2017, 10:05:56 PM »
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.



What does Mirror Universe Evil Kira have to do with this thread?  Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?

Don't you mean Mirror Universe Evil Gay Everyone?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Summing up
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2017, 10:18:31 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
The Union of Brest was at the end of the 16th century. About 350 years later West Ukraine was under Russia.

That is not "a short time later". Jesus was persecuted by Romans in 33 AD. Then in 313 Christianity was Rome's official religion. You can't say that was soon afterwards or that Romans beliefs in 313 were about as loyal to Jesus as they were 300 years before. They were polar opposites.

Same thing with Jihad. You can't say Muslims being fiercely loyal to Islam in 1050 ad proves that Egypt was fiercely loyal back in 700 ad and wasn't being forcibly converted.

350 years is not "soon afterwards". It's 7 generations or more later after thorough Catholic rule.

No Polish conquest=no mass conversion to Rome in Ukraine.

It's that simple.
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Re: Summing up
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2017, 10:39:40 PM »
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.

Your claim was:
Quote
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?

You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
The Union of Brest was at the end of the 16th century. About 350 years later West Ukraine was under Russia.

That is not "a short time later". Jesus was persecuted by Romans in 33 AD. Then in 313 Christianity was Rome's official religion. You can't say that was soon afterwards or that Romans beliefs in 313 were about as loyal to Jesus as they were 300 years before. They were polar opposites.

Same thing with Jihad. You can't say Muslims being fiercely loyal to Islam in 1050 ad proves that Egypt was fiercely loyal back in 700 ad and wasn't being forcibly converted.

350 years is not "soon afterwards". It's 7 generations or more later after thorough Catholic rule.

No Polish conquest=no mass conversion to Rome in Ukraine.

It's that simple.
My own Church has nothing to do with the Polish conquest.  Mukachevo was under Hungarian rule, Calvinist at that.  The union was at the instigation of the priests who feared Calvinist expansion. 
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