Author Topic: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.  (Read 2267 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2017, 10:47:09 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 10:53:10 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,881
  • Excelsior
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2017, 10:55:54 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Are you kidding?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2017, 10:58:28 PM »
We already say each Sunday: "Only thou art holy, to the glory of the Father", or some such verbage. I'm not actually Orthodox yet, so I can't be held responsible.

If you're not Orthodox, then stop talking about what "we" say on Sunday.  You don't. 

And if you don't want to be held responsible, be quiet about things you have no idea about.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2017, 11:00:13 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2017, 11:00:42 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Are you kidding?
Not at all, after what I've heard about the Pharisees and Saducees.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2017, 11:14:53 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Not really. I don't recall that verbage referring to Abraham or Noah. Or Elizabeth or her husband (I forget his name.)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 11:19:04 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2017, 11:21:13 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Not really. I don't recall that verbage referring to Abraham or Noah. Or Elizabeth or her husband (I forget his name.)

Then you need to read the Bible You know what, it's fine. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2017, 11:22:49 PM »
If you're not Orthodox, then stop talking about what "we" say on Sunday.  You don't. 
That's what she said.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2017, 02:49:48 AM »
Yeah, I don't exclude Elizabeth, her husband (who's name I seem to have blocked, as his tongue was blocked after the archangel Gabriel prophecied to him), or any of the other saints. Perhaps out of a sense of piety you didn't mention any of the archangels, but I don't know what that's like, being an angel of God. Or if I do, not enough to write a book about it.

You mentioned something about righteousness, I only want to say that I may have self-identified as and Old Protestant at some time in the past, however in retrospect I've come to realize that it was effectually only an efficient means of differentiating myself from the perceived "establishment" Protestant church. For this I offer no apologies.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Sharbel

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 508
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2017, 02:24:34 PM »
If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?
If "all" literally and perspicuously meant all, the Son of Man, also one among all, would also have sinned and fallen short.  If "all" was not meant literally by St. Paul, but hyperbolically, then not all have sinned, which seems to be the case, since Jesus Christ has never sinned.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2017, 08:52:10 PM »
I forgot some real information only by reading one true story.q
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 601
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Layman in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2017, 03:25:59 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.
It is typical of protestants is to cherry-pick a sentence from our Bible and then proceed to create some lalalogy.

What St Paul was trying to say must be understood in context, and the context is that he is sending a letter to the romans, who seem to be overly zealous and pharasaic. St Paul was afraid that they were falling into spiritual delusion and pride, because of this "over-righteousness". there was a need to humble them.

I can assure you if St Paul was sending a latter to the Theotokos, it would've been of entirely different content. I can say to you with certainly such a letter would be full of praises and reverences, and unlike the letter to the romans where he is trying to humble them, in a letter to the Mother of God, he will be humbling himself before Her.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:29:47 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Lepanto

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 311
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2017, 03:40:26 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.
It is typical of protestants is to cherry-pick a sentence from our Bible and then proceed to create some lalalogy.

What St Paul was trying to say must be understood in context, and the context is that he is sending a letter to the romans, who seem to be overly zealous and pharasaic. St Paul was afraid that they were falling into spiritual delusion and pride, because of this "over-righteousness". there was a need to humble them.

I can assure you if St Paul was sending a latter to the Theotokos, it would've been of entirely different content. I can say to you with certainly such a letter would be full of praises and reverences, and unlike the letter to the romans where he is trying to humble them, in a letter to the Mother of God, he will be humbling himself before Her.
+1 . Indeed, it seems weird, to say the least, to insinuate that St. Paul would trump the Theotokos: "Hey, we are all sinners, after all." Blatant nonsense.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2017, 03:33:37 PM »
Would that Hank Hannegraaf were here, to explain to us all how he was able to overcome this particular hurdle, coming from what I understand to be a very Protestant background. Some reason, I like that guy.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2017, 07:10:19 PM »
If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?
If "all" literally and perspicuously meant all, the Son of Man, also one among all, would also have sinned and fallen short.  If "all" was not meant literally by St. Paul, but hyperbolically, then not all have sinned, which seems to be the case, since Jesus Christ has never sinned.
Jesus is obviously excluded though, isn't that obvious enough?
And in keeping with the spirit that it doesn't need to be taken absolutely literally, I don't suppose there won't be any objection that all of the holy angels are without sin, right? Because frankly I would find that argument disingenuous. Possibly shallow. Because sure, there is a tradition that the devil sinned before the ages, maybe, but there is a more certain testimony found within the Genesis text.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 07:37:19 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Quinault

  • Did you drink water today?
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,959
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2017, 09:59:55 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Someone is listening to too much Avril.


Offline Xavier

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 04:14:31 AM »
1. http://www.sttikhonsmonastery.org/sinlessness.html is a truly excellent article, thanks for posting. Can Catholics and Orthodox agree, then, that Mary, at every moment in Her life, cooperated perfectly with grace and never sinned? Mcarmichael, Mary is called kecharitomene in Scripture, which means one in whom grace is complete. Where grace is full, there is no sin. Jesus is also called full of grace, by St. John, to indicate He is the source and author of grace; and Mary is saluted as full of grace by the Angel, showing She has been made sinless by Him; Mary is the vessel and tabernacle, like the Ark made of stainless gold, that is overshadowed by His Spirit and Glory, as the Fathers tirelessly point out.
"Thou and thy mother are the only ones who are totally beautiful in every respect; for in thee, O Lord, there is no spot, and in thy Mother no stain." - St. Ephraim of Syria. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/05/church-fathers-mary-is-sinless.html

2. Now, to those who said Mary chose to be sinless, we Catholics agree, we would go further and say, with St. John Damascene, that in love for God and for us Her children, our Mother freely chose, in a spirit of martyrdom, to suffer birth pangs for us - pains more than any creature has experienced, but voluntarily and without needing to - not in Bethlehem but at the foot of the Cross, as Jeremiah and Simeon prophesied. She suffered this when She gave birth to us sinners and became the Mother of St. John and of the Church on Calvary, but not in childbirth. Mary is all that Eve was meant to be. That is why She gave birth naturally without pangs.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:19:43 AM by Xavier »
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Xavier

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 04:20:18 AM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned. The Fathers call original sin the "stain of sin" and they call Her the Stainless one. The implication is evident. St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

4. As St. John Damascene put it, "she who saw her Son die on the cross ... received in her heart the sword of pain which she had not felt in childbirth" (St. John Damascene, Second Homily on the Dormition of the Mother of God).http://googleweblight.com/i?u=http://taylormarshall.com/2010/12/marys-painless-delivery-of-christ.html&grqid=VrB_hQ5V&hl=en-IN Elsewhere St. John exegetes Isa 66 in reference to the Virgin Daughter of Zion (I recommend Pope Benedicts book "Daughter of Zion" where he shows the Prophets speak of a Daughter of Zion who, as a Virgin, becomes the Mother of many peoples - and it is evident this is Mary, who also typifies and represents Israel/the Church in the perfection God wishes) who is the Immaculate Mother, made All-Holy by the grace of the All-Holy Spirit.
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 07:21:14 PM »
I always feel bad, debating this. Not because I feel like I am somehow "slighting" the Virgin Mother (if it's okay?), but because it's seemingly so important to some people.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:22:13 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Sharbel

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 508
  • Faith: Catechumen
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2017, 09:45:42 PM »
St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
No, it's not.  The Catholic teaching on the original sin is that we are all implicated in Adam's sin (CCC 402-6).  Here, St. Proclus referred to the absence of any sinful stain of Her own, not Adam's own.

Just like most Catholics see papal supremacy in any affirmation of the Primacy of St. Peter, they also see the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in every affirmation of the sinlessness of the Mother of God.  It's akin to a bias for confirmation bias.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2017, 12:36:09 AM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

Now if she didn't experience death but was assumed into the Heaven straightaway, at lest that is a consistent story. Elijah, Enoch, and maybe Moses were "assumed" into Heaven. Also Fr. Abraham. I forget if the holy prophet Elisha was assumed into Heaven. That has got to be 100% the best way to go.

So if she didn't ever misbehave, even in her youth, as some people suggest, I'm not sure which way that I would go. Why shouldn't she be assumed? Having begotten Christ, after all. Does that make sense? If a couple of prophets were assumed, there is  precedent already. It's tricky, don't sweat it. I'm not sweating, and I'm a heavy-sweater. For Christmas I want talcum powder. TY
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 01:08:16 AM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2017, 09:19:47 PM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

You imagine a lot of dumb things.

Quote
Now if she didn't experience death but was assumed into the Heaven straightaway, at lest that is a consistent story. Elijah, Enoch, and maybe Moses were "assumed" into Heaven. Also Fr. Abraham. I forget if the holy prophet Elisha was assumed into Heaven. That has got to be 100% the best way to go.

Moses died and was buried.  So, too, Abraham and Elisha. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Quinault

  • Did you drink water today?
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,959
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2017, 09:30:08 PM »
I think my perspective on sinless-ness is heavily influenced by the fact that I am a mother. Kids certainly can, and do misbehave; they do things that are naughty, and they do get into trouble. Yet, the vast majority of the time kids are merely being kids and not being "sinful." When my then 2 year old son put dog poop in my purse it was a very naughty thing to do. I wasn't happy about it, and it really was quite gross. Yet, I didn't punish him for this misbehavior because at that age he didn't have the capacity to know that what he did was wrong. I told him it was wrong, I told him why it was wrong, and he hasn't done it again. He was "corrected" but he wasn't punished.

Generally speaking kids have a hard time understanding morals, ethics, truth, and such on abstract issues until they are closer to 7-8 years old. So while they will be disciplined for bad behavior, it should be done with a heart of correction rather than discipline. You can't and shouldn't punish a kid merely for being a kid, you have to teach them what is and is not OK. My son thought he was doing a good thing by picking up the poop off the deck (our dog loves pooping on decks for some reason unknown to me), he didn't understand that you put it in the trash rather than mom's purse.

So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:32:10 PM by Quinault »

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2017, 08:58:22 PM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

You imagine a lot of dumb things.

This is true.
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline William T

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,481
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2017, 01:44:05 AM »
So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.

He sneaked out on His mom once at age 12
Holy Toledo!

Offline youssef

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 323
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2017, 05:21:09 PM »
It seem that Mar Ephrem the Syriac has made this relation.

Offline Arzelle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Church of Antioch
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2017, 06:26:20 PM »
St. Gabriel, St. Michael, and the other angels of God are all sinless, aren't they? If Our Lady is 'more honorable than the cherubim and beyond comparison more glorious than the seraphim,' is it that farfetched to believe that she was sinless too?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 06:26:42 PM by Arzelle »

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,159
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2017, 09:26:01 PM »
In the Protoevangelion of St. James it is said St. Mary was given grace at age 3:

Re The Theotokos at age 3

From the Protoevangelion of St. James 7:3-5:
"And when the child was 3 years old, Joachim said, Let us invight the daughters of the Hebrews, who are undefined, and let them each take a lamp, and let them be lighted, that the child may not turn back again, and her mind be set against the temple of the Lord. And they did this till they ascended into the temple of the Lord. And the high-priest received her, and blessed her, and said, Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name to all generations, and to the very end of time by these will the Lord shew his redemption of the children of Israel . And he placed her upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord gave unto her grace, and she danced with her feet and all the house of Israel loved her.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm   
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 09:26:53 PM by recent convert »
Antiochian OC NA

Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,188
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2017, 06:50:15 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2017, 08:03:58 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
I dunno. I just have a really difficult time with it.

Let's compare it to Israel. Israel has a king, and there is a prophecy that it will always have a king, until the Messiah comes. Okay? So, in the meanwhile, the Israelites are off doing all sorts of bad stuff, like drinking too much wine, sodomizing visitors, stuff like that. You're with me so far?
Why should the church be any different? That's how it seems to me. That's what I get, reading Paul, and Peter, and Jude, and other Apostles.
Except with the church it's bishops, bread, and baptism, I think. Something like that.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:40:53 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,419
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2017, 10:36:33 PM »
In the Protoevangelion of St. James it is said St. Mary was given grace at age 3:

Re The Theotokos at age 3

From the Protoevangelion of St. James 7:3-5:
"And when the child was 3 years old, Joachim said, Let us invight the daughters of the Hebrews, who are undefined, and let them each take a lamp, and let them be lighted, that the child may not turn back again, and her mind be set against the temple of the Lord. And they did this till they ascended into the temple of the Lord. And the high-priest received her, and blessed her, and said, Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name to all generations, and to the very end of time by these will the Lord shew his redemption of the children of Israel . And he placed her upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord gave unto her grace, and she danced with her feet and all the house of Israel loved her.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm   

I think that's saying that God just gave her the grace to dance. It's not saying she didn't have grace from birth or anything like that.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 10:40:40 PM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,419
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2017, 10:37:51 PM »
I think my perspective on sinless-ness is heavily influenced by the fact that I am a mother. Kids certainly can, and do misbehave; they do things that are naughty, and they do get into trouble. Yet, the vast majority of the time kids are merely being kids and not being "sinful." When my then 2 year old son put dog poop in my purse it was a very naughty thing to do. I wasn't happy about it, and it really was quite gross. Yet, I didn't punish him for this misbehavior because at that age he didn't have the capacity to know that what he did was wrong. I told him it was wrong, I told him why it was wrong, and he hasn't done it again. He was "corrected" but he wasn't punished.

Generally speaking kids have a hard time understanding morals, ethics, truth, and such on abstract issues until they are closer to 7-8 years old. So while they will be disciplined for bad behavior, it should be done with a heart of correction rather than discipline. You can't and shouldn't punish a kid merely for being a kid, you have to teach them what is and is not OK. My son thought he was doing a good thing by picking up the poop off the deck (our dog loves pooping on decks for some reason unknown to me), he didn't understand that you put it in the trash rather than mom's purse.

So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.

Thanks for your perspective. As a single guy, it's given me a lot to consider that I never really thought about before.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,419
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2017, 10:40:10 PM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned.

Doesn't that more speak against an IC, though? Eve chose to sin, Mary could have but didn't. It seems to me that the IC is kind of a denial of her free will.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline CarolS

  • Lurker Extraordinaire
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2017, 11:16:56 PM »
It seems to me that the RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception not only denies Mary, the Theotokos, as being fully human like us, but by extension, then Christ also could not have been fully human.

It gives us hope to know that by grace, we are not slaves to sin, but can choose and strive to be without sin. Many of the accounts of the Saints show this.
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2017, 05:36:42 PM »
It seems to me that the RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception not only denies Mary, the Theotokos, as being fully human like us, but by extension, then Christ also could not have been fully human.

It gives us hope to know that by grace, we are not slaves to sin, but can choose and strive to be without sin. Many of the accounts of the Saints show this.

Amen.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2017, 11:56:32 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
I dunno. I just have a really difficult time with it.

Let's compare it to Israel. Israel has a king, and there is a prophecy that it will always have a king, until the Messiah comes. Okay? So, in the meanwhile, the Israelites are off doing all sorts of bad stuff, like drinking too much wine, sodomizing visitors, stuff like that. You're with me so far?
Why should the church be any different? That's how it seems to me. That's what I get, reading Paul, and Peter, and Jude, and other Apostles.
Except with the church it's bishops, bread, and baptism, I think. Something like that.
Also, I do apologize if I seemed to be suggesting something disgraceful of the mother of our Lord. It didn't even occur to me that skateboarding might carry the same stigma today as it did in my youth.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 11:58:07 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2017, 09:39:43 PM »
This text, which plainly foretells an Immaculate Virgin free of guilt giving birth without pain, as so many of the holy Fathers (including St. Damascene and St. Augustine) explicitly point out, also necessitates something more - in light of God imposing in Genesis the pangs of childbirth as a consequence of Eves transgression, it follows that the Immaculate Virgin Mary was in no way subject to the curse of Eve by nature. Otherwise She would have given birth in pain. Her lack of it is a sign from God of Her being created sinless, just like Eve was before the fall.

Quote
"The Lord assumed His mother's nature without her faultiness..."

Pope Leo I of Rome, Letter 28 ("Tome of Leo"), IV
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

  • Novice
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,610
  • No cocaine.
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2017, 02:06:26 AM »
I'm at the point now, after a considerable amount of google search, that I feel I can honestly say "I want to believe."

I feel somewhat conflicted about that. It's like my inner contrarian is like "... and that's how they get you!" :)

Side note, I just read Isaiah 66, thanks for that.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 02:07:20 PM by mcarmichael »
"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." - Ecclesiastes (NASB)

"Learn meditation." - Anonymous