Author Topic: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.  (Read 5879 times)

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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2017, 10:47:09 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 10:53:10 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2017, 10:55:54 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Are you kidding?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2017, 10:58:28 PM »
We already say each Sunday: "Only thou art holy, to the glory of the Father", or some such verbage. I'm not actually Orthodox yet, so I can't be held responsible.

If you're not Orthodox, then stop talking about what "we" say on Sunday.  You don't. 

And if you don't want to be held responsible, be quiet about things you have no idea about.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2017, 11:00:13 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2017, 11:00:42 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Are you kidding?
Not at all, after what I've heard about the Pharisees and Saducees.
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To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2017, 11:14:53 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Not really. I don't recall that verbage referring to Abraham or Noah. Or Elizabeth or her husband (I forget his name.)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 11:19:04 PM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2017, 11:21:13 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Not really. I don't recall that verbage referring to Abraham or Noah. Or Elizabeth or her husband (I forget his name.)

Then you need to read the Bible You know what, it's fine. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2017, 11:22:49 PM »
If you're not Orthodox, then stop talking about what "we" say on Sunday.  You don't. 
That's what she said.
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To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2017, 02:49:48 AM »
Yeah, I don't exclude Elizabeth, her husband (who's name I seem to have blocked, as his tongue was blocked after the archangel Gabriel prophecied to him), or any of the other saints. Perhaps out of a sense of piety you didn't mention any of the archangels, but I don't know what that's like, being an angel of God. Or if I do, not enough to write a book about it.

You mentioned something about righteousness, I only want to say that I may have self-identified as and Old Protestant at some time in the past, however in retrospect I've come to realize that it was effectually only an efficient means of differentiating myself from the perceived "establishment" Protestant church. For this I offer no apologies.
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To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2017, 02:24:34 PM »
If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?
If "all" literally and perspicuously meant all, the Son of Man, also one among all, would also have sinned and fallen short.  If "all" was not meant literally by St. Paul, but hyperbolically, then not all have sinned, which seems to be the case, since Jesus Christ has never sinned.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2017, 08:52:10 PM »
I forgot some real information only by reading one true story.q
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To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2017, 03:25:59 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.
It is typical of protestants is to cherry-pick a sentence from our Bible and then proceed to create some lalalogy.

What St Paul was trying to say must be understood in context, and the context is that he is sending a letter to the romans, who seem to be overly zealous and pharasaic. St Paul was afraid that they were falling into spiritual delusion and pride, because of this "over-righteousness". there was a need to humble them.

I can assure you if St Paul was sending a latter to the Theotokos, it would've been of entirely different content. I can say to you with certainly such a letter would be full of praises and reverences, and unlike the letter to the romans where he is trying to humble them, in a letter to the Mother of God, he will be humbling himself before Her.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:29:47 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2017, 03:40:26 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.
It is typical of protestants is to cherry-pick a sentence from our Bible and then proceed to create some lalalogy.

What St Paul was trying to say must be understood in context, and the context is that he is sending a letter to the romans, who seem to be overly zealous and pharasaic. St Paul was afraid that they were falling into spiritual delusion and pride, because of this "over-righteousness". there was a need to humble them.

I can assure you if St Paul was sending a latter to the Theotokos, it would've been of entirely different content. I can say to you with certainly such a letter would be full of praises and reverences, and unlike the letter to the romans where he is trying to humble them, in a letter to the Mother of God, he will be humbling himself before Her.
+1 . Indeed, it seems weird, to say the least, to insinuate that St. Paul would trump the Theotokos: "Hey, we are all sinners, after all." Blatant nonsense.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2017, 03:33:37 PM »
Would that Hank Hannegraaf were here, to explain to us all how he was able to overcome this particular hurdle, coming from what I understand to be a very Protestant background. Some reason, I like that guy.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2017, 07:10:19 PM »
If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?
If "all" literally and perspicuously meant all, the Son of Man, also one among all, would also have sinned and fallen short.  If "all" was not meant literally by St. Paul, but hyperbolically, then not all have sinned, which seems to be the case, since Jesus Christ has never sinned.
Jesus is obviously excluded though, isn't that obvious enough?
And in keeping with the spirit that it doesn't need to be taken absolutely literally, I don't suppose there won't be any objection that all of the holy angels are without sin, right? Because frankly I would find that argument disingenuous. Possibly shallow. Because sure, there is a tradition that the devil sinned before the ages, maybe, but there is a more certain testimony found within the Genesis text.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 07:37:19 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2017, 09:59:55 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Someone is listening to too much Avril.


Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 04:14:31 AM »
1. http://www.sttikhonsmonastery.org/sinlessness.html is a truly excellent article, thanks for posting. Can Catholics and Orthodox agree, then, that Mary, at every moment in Her life, cooperated perfectly with grace and never sinned? Mcarmichael, Mary is called kecharitomene in Scripture, which means one in whom grace is complete. Where grace is full, there is no sin. Jesus is also called full of grace, by St. John, to indicate He is the source and author of grace; and Mary is saluted as full of grace by the Angel, showing She has been made sinless by Him; Mary is the vessel and tabernacle, like the Ark made of stainless gold, that is overshadowed by His Spirit and Glory, as the Fathers tirelessly point out.
"Thou and thy mother are the only ones who are totally beautiful in every respect; for in thee, O Lord, there is no spot, and in thy Mother no stain." - St. Ephraim of Syria. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/05/church-fathers-mary-is-sinless.html

2. Now, to those who said Mary chose to be sinless, we Catholics agree, we would go further and say, with St. John Damascene, that in love for God and for us Her children, our Mother freely chose, in a spirit of martyrdom, to suffer birth pangs for us - pains more than any creature has experienced, but voluntarily and without needing to - not in Bethlehem but at the foot of the Cross, as Jeremiah and Simeon prophesied. She suffered this when She gave birth to us sinners and became the Mother of St. John and of the Church on Calvary, but not in childbirth. Mary is all that Eve was meant to be. That is why She gave birth naturally without pangs.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:19:43 AM by Xavier »
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: "that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also the Faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 04:20:18 AM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned. The Fathers call original sin the "stain of sin" and they call Her the Stainless one. The implication is evident. St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

4. As St. John Damascene put it, "she who saw her Son die on the cross ... received in her heart the sword of pain which she had not felt in childbirth" (St. John Damascene, Second Homily on the Dormition of the Mother of God).http://googleweblight.com/i?u=http://taylormarshall.com/2010/12/marys-painless-delivery-of-christ.html&grqid=VrB_hQ5V&hl=en-IN Elsewhere St. John exegetes Isa 66 in reference to the Virgin Daughter of Zion (I recommend Pope Benedicts book "Daughter of Zion" where he shows the Prophets speak of a Daughter of Zion who, as a Virgin, becomes the Mother of many peoples - and it is evident this is Mary, who also typifies and represents Israel/the Church in the perfection God wishes) who is the Immaculate Mother, made All-Holy by the grace of the All-Holy Spirit.
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: "that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also the Faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 07:21:14 PM »
I always feel bad, debating this. Not because I feel like I am somehow "slighting" the Virgin Mother (if it's okay?), but because it's seemingly so important to some people.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:22:13 PM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2017, 09:45:42 PM »
St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
No, it's not.  The Catholic teaching on the original sin is that we are all implicated in Adam's sin (CCC 402-6).  Here, St. Proclus referred to the absence of any sinful stain of Her own, not Adam's own.

Just like most Catholics see papal supremacy in any affirmation of the Primacy of St. Peter, they also see the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in every affirmation of the sinlessness of the Mother of God.  It's akin to a bias for confirmation bias.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2017, 12:36:09 AM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

Now if she didn't experience death but was assumed into the Heaven straightaway, at lest that is a consistent story. Elijah, Enoch, and maybe Moses were "assumed" into Heaven. Also Fr. Abraham. I forget if the holy prophet Elisha was assumed into Heaven. That has got to be 100% the best way to go.

So if she didn't ever misbehave, even in her youth, as some people suggest, I'm not sure which way that I would go. Why shouldn't she be assumed? Having begotten Christ, after all. Does that make sense? If a couple of prophets were assumed, there is  precedent already. It's tricky, don't sweat it. I'm not sweating, and I'm a heavy-sweater. For Christmas I want talcum powder. TY
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 01:08:16 AM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2017, 09:19:47 PM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

You imagine a lot of dumb things.

Quote
Now if she didn't experience death but was assumed into the Heaven straightaway, at lest that is a consistent story. Elijah, Enoch, and maybe Moses were "assumed" into Heaven. Also Fr. Abraham. I forget if the holy prophet Elisha was assumed into Heaven. That has got to be 100% the best way to go.

Moses died and was buried.  So, too, Abraham and Elisha. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2017, 09:30:08 PM »
I think my perspective on sinless-ness is heavily influenced by the fact that I am a mother. Kids certainly can, and do misbehave; they do things that are naughty, and they do get into trouble. Yet, the vast majority of the time kids are merely being kids and not being "sinful." When my then 2 year old son put dog poop in my purse it was a very naughty thing to do. I wasn't happy about it, and it really was quite gross. Yet, I didn't punish him for this misbehavior because at that age he didn't have the capacity to know that what he did was wrong. I told him it was wrong, I told him why it was wrong, and he hasn't done it again. He was "corrected" but he wasn't punished.

Generally speaking kids have a hard time understanding morals, ethics, truth, and such on abstract issues until they are closer to 7-8 years old. So while they will be disciplined for bad behavior, it should be done with a heart of correction rather than discipline. You can't and shouldn't punish a kid merely for being a kid, you have to teach them what is and is not OK. My son thought he was doing a good thing by picking up the poop off the deck (our dog loves pooping on decks for some reason unknown to me), he didn't understand that you put it in the trash rather than mom's purse.

So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:32:10 PM by Quinault »

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2017, 08:58:22 PM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

You imagine a lot of dumb things.

This is true.
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Offline William T

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2017, 01:44:05 AM »
So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.

He sneaked out on His mom once at age 12

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2017, 05:21:09 PM »
It seem that Mar Ephrem the Syriac has made this relation.

Offline Arzelle

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2017, 06:26:20 PM »
St. Gabriel, St. Michael, and the other angels of God are all sinless, aren't they? If Our Lady is 'more honorable than the cherubim and beyond comparison more glorious than the seraphim,' is it that farfetched to believe that she was sinless too?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 06:26:42 PM by Arzelle »

Offline recent convert

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2017, 09:26:01 PM »
In the Protoevangelion of St. James it is said St. Mary was given grace at age 3:

Re The Theotokos at age 3

From the Protoevangelion of St. James 7:3-5:
"And when the child was 3 years old, Joachim said, Let us invight the daughters of the Hebrews, who are undefined, and let them each take a lamp, and let them be lighted, that the child may not turn back again, and her mind be set against the temple of the Lord. And they did this till they ascended into the temple of the Lord. And the high-priest received her, and blessed her, and said, Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name to all generations, and to the very end of time by these will the Lord shew his redemption of the children of Israel . And he placed her upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord gave unto her grace, and she danced with her feet and all the house of Israel loved her.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm   
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 09:26:53 PM by recent convert »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2017, 06:50:15 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2017, 08:03:58 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
I dunno. I just have a really difficult time with it.

Let's compare it to Israel. Israel has a king, and there is a prophecy that it will always have a king, until the Messiah comes. Okay? So, in the meanwhile, the Israelites are off doing all sorts of bad stuff, like drinking too much wine, sodomizing visitors, stuff like that. You're with me so far?
Why should the church be any different? That's how it seems to me. That's what I get, reading Paul, and Peter, and Jude, and other Apostles.
Except with the church it's bishops, bread, and baptism, I think. Something like that.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:40:53 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2017, 10:36:33 PM »
In the Protoevangelion of St. James it is said St. Mary was given grace at age 3:

Re The Theotokos at age 3

From the Protoevangelion of St. James 7:3-5:
"And when the child was 3 years old, Joachim said, Let us invight the daughters of the Hebrews, who are undefined, and let them each take a lamp, and let them be lighted, that the child may not turn back again, and her mind be set against the temple of the Lord. And they did this till they ascended into the temple of the Lord. And the high-priest received her, and blessed her, and said, Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name to all generations, and to the very end of time by these will the Lord shew his redemption of the children of Israel . And he placed her upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord gave unto her grace, and she danced with her feet and all the house of Israel loved her.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm   

I think that's saying that God just gave her the grace to dance. It's not saying she didn't have grace from birth or anything like that.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 10:40:40 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2017, 10:37:51 PM »
I think my perspective on sinless-ness is heavily influenced by the fact that I am a mother. Kids certainly can, and do misbehave; they do things that are naughty, and they do get into trouble. Yet, the vast majority of the time kids are merely being kids and not being "sinful." When my then 2 year old son put dog poop in my purse it was a very naughty thing to do. I wasn't happy about it, and it really was quite gross. Yet, I didn't punish him for this misbehavior because at that age he didn't have the capacity to know that what he did was wrong. I told him it was wrong, I told him why it was wrong, and he hasn't done it again. He was "corrected" but he wasn't punished.

Generally speaking kids have a hard time understanding morals, ethics, truth, and such on abstract issues until they are closer to 7-8 years old. So while they will be disciplined for bad behavior, it should be done with a heart of correction rather than discipline. You can't and shouldn't punish a kid merely for being a kid, you have to teach them what is and is not OK. My son thought he was doing a good thing by picking up the poop off the deck (our dog loves pooping on decks for some reason unknown to me), he didn't understand that you put it in the trash rather than mom's purse.

So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.

Thanks for your perspective. As a single guy, it's given me a lot to consider that I never really thought about before.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2017, 10:40:10 PM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned.

Doesn't that more speak against an IC, though? Eve chose to sin, Mary could have but didn't. It seems to me that the IC is kind of a denial of her free will.
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Offline CarolS

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2017, 11:16:56 PM »
It seems to me that the RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception not only denies Mary, the Theotokos, as being fully human like us, but by extension, then Christ also could not have been fully human.

It gives us hope to know that by grace, we are not slaves to sin, but can choose and strive to be without sin. Many of the accounts of the Saints show this.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2017, 05:36:42 PM »
It seems to me that the RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception not only denies Mary, the Theotokos, as being fully human like us, but by extension, then Christ also could not have been fully human.

It gives us hope to know that by grace, we are not slaves to sin, but can choose and strive to be without sin. Many of the accounts of the Saints show this.

Amen.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2017, 11:56:32 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
I dunno. I just have a really difficult time with it.

Let's compare it to Israel. Israel has a king, and there is a prophecy that it will always have a king, until the Messiah comes. Okay? So, in the meanwhile, the Israelites are off doing all sorts of bad stuff, like drinking too much wine, sodomizing visitors, stuff like that. You're with me so far?
Why should the church be any different? That's how it seems to me. That's what I get, reading Paul, and Peter, and Jude, and other Apostles.
Except with the church it's bishops, bread, and baptism, I think. Something like that.
Also, I do apologize if I seemed to be suggesting something disgraceful of the mother of our Lord. It didn't even occur to me that skateboarding might carry the same stigma today as it did in my youth.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 11:58:07 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2017, 09:39:43 PM »
This text, which plainly foretells an Immaculate Virgin free of guilt giving birth without pain, as so many of the holy Fathers (including St. Damascene and St. Augustine) explicitly point out, also necessitates something more - in light of God imposing in Genesis the pangs of childbirth as a consequence of Eves transgression, it follows that the Immaculate Virgin Mary was in no way subject to the curse of Eve by nature. Otherwise She would have given birth in pain. Her lack of it is a sign from God of Her being created sinless, just like Eve was before the fall.

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"The Lord assumed His mother's nature without her faultiness..."

Pope Leo I of Rome, Letter 28 ("Tome of Leo"), IV
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2017, 02:06:26 AM »
I'm at the point now, after a considerable amount of google search, that I feel I can honestly say "I want to believe."

I feel somewhat conflicted about that. It's like my inner contrarian is like "... and that's how they get you!" :)

Side note, I just read Isaiah 66, thanks for that.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 02:07:20 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2017, 01:13:32 PM »
There is no pronoun in the Latin, Mor. The translation is faulty and should be "He assumed His Mother's Nature, without fault" (Latin: Assumpta est de Matre Domini natura, non culpa). There is no Her. He became true Man by His nativity from His Mother thereby assuming Her nature as He shared His eternal Father's nature by His eternal birth. Such is the doctrine of Pope St. Leo I. There is no reference to a fault of the Virgin in the text. So now to St. Ephraim of Syria, how do we understand his statement that Jesus and Mary "alone are in all things pure. There is no flaw in" Him and "no stain" in Her? St. Ephraim places Her above the Angels in being altogether stainless and wholly pure; yet Angels are created without original stain and the good ones did not sin. What follows from this? That Mary was also created without stain, lived a sinless life even more than they did, and because Her obedience was more prompt, Her sufferings greater than Angels who do not suffer bodily etc in short because of a perfect cooperation with God's grace became far holier than the highest cherubim and sinless seraphim, as all Tradition testifies.

CarolS and Volnutt, We have come to think of sin as somewhat part of creation or at least of humanity, so that we are suspect of one who does not sin, or think one who does so could not be fully human. On the contrary, our first parents were created without stain and possessed of indwelling grace, and sin was never God's will for them. St. Andrew of Crete says of the Holy Virgin "When the Mother of Him Who is Beauty Himself is Born, this nature regains in Her person all its ancient privileges" where you have the Catholic doctrine stated. Mary was the new Eve, God made creation new and began with a new Mother of the living, full of grace, this time who would not fall, but preserve the grace She received for Her children also. And St. Sophronius says to the Theotokos "No one has been purified in advance as Thou hast been" which shows Mary's manner of being purified/sanctified is unique among the Saints. What could this be? St. John the Baptist was purified in the womb as the Holy Ghost fell at the Virgin's word, as we read in the Gospel of St. Luke. What is being purified even in advance of this, like no one else ever has, as St. Sophronius says Mary was? It remains that She, as the Immaculate and chosen Bride of the Holy Spirit, made all holy by the all Holy Spirit, was sanctified even in advance compared to the Precursor. Before the womb. So, at conception.

Sharbel, read the text again. It says Mary was created by Christ without stain just as Jesus came from Mary having no stain. The Catholic doctrine is that the stain of sin is in all of us and is removed in baptismal regeneration. Jesus and Mary as New Eve and Adam were kept from this original stain, as St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:17:55 PM by Xavier »
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: "that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also the Faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2017, 01:32:26 PM »
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CarolS and Volnutt, We have come to think of sin as somewhat part of creation or at least of humanity, so that we are suspect of one who does not sin, or think one who does so could not be fully human. On the contrary, our first parents were created without stain and possessed of indwelling grace, and sin was never God's will for them.

Says who? They were made innocent, but that's not quite the same thing as being perfect, otherwise how did the Fall even happen in the first place?

Quote
St. Andrew of Crete says of the Holy Virgin "When the Mother of Him Who is Beauty Himself is Born, this nature regains in Her person all its ancient privileges" where you have the Catholic doctrine stated. Mary was the new Eve, God made creation new and began with a new Mother of the living, full of grace, this time who would not fall, but preserve the grace She received for Her children also. And St. Sophronius says to the Theotokos "No one has been purified in advance as Thou hast been" which shows Mary's manner of being purified/sanctified is unique among the Saints. What could this be? St. John the Baptist was purified in the womb as the Holy Ghost fell at the Virgin's word, as we read in the Gospel of St. Luke. What is being purified even in advance of this, like no one else ever has, as St. Sophronius says Mary was? It remains that She, as the Immaculate and chosen Bride of the Holy Spirit, made all holy by the all Holy Spirit, was sanctified even in advance compared to the Precursor. Before the womb. So, at conception.

I don't think that the St. Andrew quote requires the IC. Seems to me that it could work just as well with the idea that she was sinless by choice (keeping in mind, of course, that all obedience is ultimately by the grace of God).

The St. Sophronius quote sounds like hyperbole. She came from a holy home and background to be sure (St. Gregory Palamas taught as much), but that's a far cry from saying that she was therefore ontologicaly different from us. How does a sinless human even come from two sin-capable parents in the first place? The logic of the IC would require "ICs all the way down."
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:37:27 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2017, 01:25:23 AM »
Sharbel, read the text again. It says Mary was created by Christ without stain just as Jesus came from Mary having no stain. The Catholic doctrine is that the stain of sin is in all of us and is removed in baptismal regeneration. Jesus and Mary as New Eve and Adam were kept from this original stain, as St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies.
Neither Adam nor Eve were kept from any original stain as they had yet to fall into sin.

Then again, why was the Word made flesh if God could keep everyone free from this original stain and not only Mary?  And if the nature that Jesus assumed to Heaven was different from mine, then I cannot enter into Heaven, making St. Paul a fool, who thought that Our Lord were the first fruits of the harvest that is you and I (cf. 1Cor 15:23)?  If Jesus is a special kind of human or human as before the fall, then he did not redeem humanity at all, for that human nature needed no redemption (cf. St. Athanasius of Alexandria).  Moreover, then his resurrection would have no special meaning, for Adam and Eve became mortal only after the fall, not requiring any divine power to raise from the tomb.  Therefore, putting in question the resurrection of the dead of all children of Adam and Eve, since our human nature is incapable of eternal life without its being risen from the dead in Christ Jesus. 

Additionally, it makes little of Mary's virtue, who is "greater than the Heavens" because she never sinned though she inherited the fallen nature of Eve.  Who, according to Holy Tradition, held also by the Church of Rome, died, an impossibility if her nature were free of that original stain.

Nay, it's a faulty teaching that has no place in the Church.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 01:30:08 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2017, 05:53:49 AM »
Sharbel, read the text again. It says Mary was created by Christ without stain just as Jesus came from Mary having no stain. The Catholic doctrine is that the stain of sin is in all of us and is removed in baptismal regeneration. Jesus and Mary as New Eve and Adam were kept from this original stain, as St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies.
Neither Adam nor Eve were kept from any original stain as they had yet to fall into sin.

Then again, why was the Word made flesh if God could keep everyone free from this original stain and not only Mary?  And if the nature that Jesus assumed to Heaven was different from mine, then I cannot enter into Heaven, making St. Paul a fool, who thought that Our Lord were the first fruits of the harvest that is you and I (cf. 1Cor 15:23)?  If Jesus is a special kind of human or human as before the fall, then he did not redeem humanity at all, for that human nature needed no redemption (cf. St. Athanasius of Alexandria).  Moreover, then his resurrection would have no special meaning, for Adam and Eve became mortal only after the fall, not requiring any divine power to raise from the tomb.  Therefore, putting in question the resurrection of the dead of all children of Adam and Eve, since our human nature is incapable of eternal life without its being risen from the dead in Christ Jesus. 

Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're saying that the logic of the Incarnation disproves Catholic-style original sin?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2017, 04:08:42 PM »
Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're saying that the logic of the Incarnation disproves Catholic-style original sin?
Perish the thought if I erred, but I think that this is the gist of the argument made by Met. Kallistos in The Orthodox Way.  The Syriac Churches also make this argument, through which I firstly learned it, even if I make it injustice.

In other words, man does not inherit our Forebears' sin, only its consequence: death.  The Virgin Mary inherited death like us all and thus so did Jesus Christ.  However, neither ever sinned, yet both died.  He, by dying, destroyed death by rising from the dead, healing human nature from the consequence of the sin of our first ancestors.  So much so that His Holy Mother was taken up to Heaven, body and soul, upon her death. 

Again, had the Mother of God been given the same human nature as Eve's before the Fall, she'd never die and neither would her Son, Our God.  If Jesus died, it was because He inherited our fallen nature, but, because He cannot bear any sin, there is no inherited sin in human nature.  Our sinfulness is our own doing, not God's.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 04:10:36 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2017, 03:57:24 AM »
1. Volnutt, the progessive sanctification of Mother Mary's ancestors (not "ics all the way down", but greater and greater holiness until the Stainless Ark where God Almighty could dwell was formed) is taught by both St. John Damascene and Gregory Palamas among others. To quote the former "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!" In a similar light, speaking of the House God built for Himself, St. Cyril asks, "Who ever heard of an architect, building a house for himself, and giving possession of it to his greatest enemy?"

St. Augustine says, "We do not transfer Mary to the devil by the condition of her birth, for this reason, that that condition is dissolved by the grace of her new birth." If you read the full citation from St. Andrew, I dont see how you can deny that he is teaching Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, where sin will be no more, in Her  "humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility." See http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.in/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html?m=1

Two more western authorities, St. Ambrose, the Theotokos is "a virgin freed by grace from every stain of sin." And St. Fulgentius ""By these words [Hail, full of grace], the angel shows that she [Mary] was altogether excluded from the wrath of the first sentence, and restored to the full grace of blessing."

Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council? One of your saints in the link mentioned earlier relates that he thought "Perhaps the Mother of God sinned, at least in thought." But immediately he heard the voice of the Holy Ghost in his soul defending His bride "No, the Mother of God never sinned, not even in thought". Since lesser souls cannot always hear the Holy Ghost perfectly and also because it is not right to expect the Lord to speak personally to each and every one of the faithful to confirm the doctrine, since the Church is the living voice of the Spirit, would it not be fitting for the Orthodox Church to define the doctrine of Mary's perfect sinlessness, to keep the faithful from errors like that to which the saint above originally fell?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 04:06:08 AM by Xavier »
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: "that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also the Faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2017, 04:30:41 AM »
2. Sharbel, I agree with Bp. Kallistos Ware when he said "The Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, if only they had shared the doctrine of original sin" (roughly, from memory). To answer that and your objection, we need to speak a little more about original sin. Do you agree with these two early Councils on original sin?

"Canon 2 (529 A.D) "If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle" and it means simply that we are born deprived of indwelling grace until we are born again in Baptism. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Councils/Orange.htm Original sin, says St. Thomas Aquinas, is formally, the privation of sanctifying grace. Original sin is very clear in early Councils.

"Council of Carthage, Canon 2 (418 A.D) Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as falseand not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it.

http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/carthage_canons_on_sin_and_grace.htm

Now, to the objection - here are two texts to ponder that say Mary was free from the penalty of bodily death, She chose to die voluntarily and freely (just as She was free from natural birth pangs, but chose to undergo them at the Cross in giving birth to us, for this the Catholic Church honors Her as Queen of Martyrs", in the same way She freely chose to sleep in death before Her body was Assumed higher than the heavens, but without needing to). St. John Damascene, "How could death claim as its prey this truly blessed one ... Death trembled before her. In approaching her Son, death had learnt experience from His sufferings, and had grown wiser. The gloomy descent to hell was not for her, but a joyous, easy, and sweet passage to heaven." Www.catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/lectio-divina-solemnity-of-the-assumption-aug-15/

Ans St. Germanus of Constantinople "how could dissolution of the body return you to dust and ashes, you who delivered the human race from the destruction of death through the incarnation of your Son? ... It was clearly in the same way as he made his own life- giving tomb that he made your sepulcher wonderful also, as the tomb of your falling asleep, a tomb which received life; therefore both tombs really received your bodies, but could in no way affect them with corruption.

For nor could you, as the vessel which contained God, waste away to dust in the destruction of death? For since he who humbled himself in you was God from beginning and eternal life, so the Mother of Life was to share the dwelling of Life, to accept her death like a sleep and consent to her translation like a waking, as the Mother of Life."

God raising Her bodily above the heavens is another sign, like Her naturally painless birth, that Mary is everything Eve was meant to be but was not. Mary succeeded in everything Eve failed at. Both Jesus and Mary never needed to die but chose to.
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: "that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also the Faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm