Author Topic: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.  (Read 5506 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2017, 06:24:10 AM »
1. Volnutt, the progessive sanctification of Mother Mary's ancestors (not "ics all the way down", but greater and greater holiness until the Stainless Ark where God Almighty could dwell was formed) is taught by both St. John Damascene and Gregory Palamas among others. To quote the former "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!" In a similar light, speaking of the House God built for Himself, St. Cyril asks, "Who ever heard of an architect, building a house for himself, and giving possession of it to his greatest enemy?"

St. Augustine says, "We do not transfer Mary to the devil by the condition of her birth, for this reason, that that condition is dissolved by the grace of her new birth." If you read the full citation from St. Andrew, I dont see how you can deny that he is teaching Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, where sin will be no more, in Her  "humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility." See http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.in/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html?m=1

Two more western authorities, St. Ambrose, the Theotokos is "a virgin freed by grace from every stain of sin." And St. Fulgentius ""By these words [Hail, full of grace], the angel shows that she [Mary] was altogether excluded from the wrath of the first sentence, and restored to the full grace of blessing."

Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council? One of your saints in the link mentioned earlier relates that he thought "Perhaps the Mother of God sinned, at least in thought." But immediately he heard the voice of the Holy Ghost in his soul defending His bride "No, the Mother of God never sinned, not even in thought". Since lesser souls cannot always hear the Holy Ghost perfectly and also because it is not right to expect the Lord to speak personally to each and every one of the faithful to confirm the doctrine, since the Church is the living voice of the Spirit, would it not be fitting for the Orthodox Church to define the doctrine of Mary's perfect sinlessness, to keep the faithful from errors like that to which the saint above originally fell?

Saying that progressive purification could result in a baby born without original sin is like saying that, given enough time, I could count to infinity. It makes no sense. Now, maybe you could have something like the IC without a doctrine of original sin, and maybe that's what the Fathers you quote are talking about, but to me it seems redundant and it wouldn't be what Catholics mean by the IC anyway.

And if you say she was free of original sin on the basis of the future death of Christ, then you lose the idea that the IC was necessary for Christ to be free from original sin in the first place.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2017, 01:26:46 PM »
If Original Sin, in the sense of actual guiltiness, is put aside, then there is still plenty of room for speculation as to how the Blessed Mother became capable of so holy a life, and so assuming e.g. seven generations (just to pull a figure from St. Moses) of increasing piety and discipline preceded her is not at all necessarily in the same category of thought as the Immaculate Conception. Desperate hypothesis such as that can be put aside with the putting aside of assertion of Original Sin, but, to reiterate, plenty of speculation remains, in a wholly other vein.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2017, 01:30:24 PM »
If Original Sin, in the sense of actual guiltiness, is put aside, then there is still plenty of room for speculation as to how the Blessed Mother became capable of so holy a life, and so assuming e.g. seven generations (just to pull a figure from St. Moses) of increasing piety and discipline preceded her is not at all necessarily in the same category of thought as the Immaculate Conception. Desperate hypothesis such as that can be put aside with the putting aside of assertion of Original Sin, but, to reiterate, plenty of speculation remains, in a wholly other vein.

Agreed.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2017, 01:37:25 PM »
(....)

Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council? One of your saints in the link mentioned earlier relates that he thought "Perhaps the Mother of God sinned, at least in thought." But immediately he heard the voice of the Holy Ghost in his soul defending His bride "No, the Mother of God never sinned, not even in thought". Since lesser souls cannot always hear the Holy Ghost perfectly and also because it is not right to expect the Lord to speak personally to each and every one of the faithful to confirm the doctrine, since the Church is the living voice of the Spirit, would it not be fitting for the Orthodox Church to define the doctrine of Mary's perfect sinlessness, to keep the faithful from errors like that to which the saint above originally fell?

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2017, 01:38:28 PM »
The interest in hereditary purity seems a bit strange to me. Isn't it part of the 'good news' that it doesn't matter who your parents are or where you came from, and that virtue and salvation instead have to do with your own choices and actions (prompted, performed and completed through grace)? As if to make this point the genealogy in the one gospel goes out of its way to insert prominent sinners in the line, and Jesus specifically refutes the notion that things like blindness were the result of the sin of someone's parents (John 9).

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2017, 01:53:04 PM »
The interest in hereditary purity seems a bit strange to me. Isn't it part of the 'good news' that it doesn't matter who your parents are or where you came from, and that virtue and salvation instead have to do with your own choices and actions (prompted, performed and completed through grace)? As if to make this point the genealogy in the one gospel goes out of its way to insert prominent sinners in the line, and Jesus specifically refutes the notion that things like blindness were the result of the sin of someone's parents (John 9).

As I recall, the way that Fr. Hopko explained it was that Saints often raised other Saints, that it's just a lot easier to be holy yourself if you come from a holy upbringing. That's not to deny that the children of godly people can't go bad, or that a person from an immoral background can't become a Saint, it's just talking about what's more likely.

Of course, that wouldn't really serve Xavier's purposes.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 01:55:16 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2017, 01:54:26 PM »
Also, I don't recall St. John Chrysostom ever recanting his speculations about Mary sinning in thought. Did he?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2017, 03:46:28 PM »
Okay, this is all a bit new to me, so please forgive me if err.

May I say that I have saved myself (hypothetically speaking), according to St. Peter in The Acts of the Apostles, Ch. 2 V. 40?
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And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

We all have our biases, afterall.

Alright, let's not make this about me. Let's say the saints. Is it permissible to say that the the saints also saved themselves? Because there's one for any Calvinist to consider, amiright?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 03:56:34 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2017, 12:33:47 AM »
Okay, @Xavier, so I found a couple of Orthodox hymns that are used liturgically, which I have seen suggested that they suggest what you said.

I say that they are used liturgically, but I haven't observed them being used liturgically. Be that as it may, let us continue. The hymns are to follow:

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The services of the Church proclaim that the Theotokos was/is...

* ‘never subject to the taint of sin’ (Feast of the Entry, ode 9 at matins, first canon) This, I should think, is about as direct as one could ask for.

‘a temple truly divine … innocent from the time she was a babe’ (Feast of the Entry, sessional hymn at matins) Note how this ascription ensures that we do not simply believe that her purity was physical (i.e. her virginity), but stresses 'innocence', which is a condition of soul.

‘undefiled’ and ‘all-undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Doxastikon at vespers; ode 1 at matins; many other places)

* ‘she who alone is undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Lity) Note the stress that is placed here on the unique nature of the Theotokos being undefiled. I draw attention to this, because one of the common arguments offered by those seeking to depart from the teaching of the Fathers on this topic, is that descriptions of the Virgin as 'pure' and 'undefiled' refer to her virginity -- i.e. that these are not references to a question of sin, but to physical virginity. However, this hymn says that the Theotokos is 'alone' in being undefiled: something that is clearly not true of 'undefiled' merely means virginal, as there are many people who are virginal.

source: http://www.monachos.net/conversation/topic/5916-question-about-the-sinlessness-of-the-theotokos/page-4 (per an "Archimandrite Irenei", around the middle of the page and in small-ish text.)

It seems like enough for me to consider that it is the teaching of the [Orthodox] church, whether it's true or not.
Fr. Seraphim seems to have been having an existential crisis, and there isn't anything wrong with that. If that is the case, however, it could only be because he came to understand that the Orthodox church is indeed explicit.

I could easily be wrong about that, however.

I suppose, in light of the honor which was granted to her, it may be possible to consider that she didn't ever succumb to any willful sin, because Mosaic Law isn't actually that demanding. There is stuff that you can be excused for, on the day of Atonement I think it was. Other stuff that you couldn't be excused for, per St. Paul the Apostle in one of his epistles. It's brilliant anyway. I'm sure she's easily the first among the saints, especially when you consider that she was (IS!) a woman. I mean, it would be difficult enough for a man to accomplish; but a woman? Not one woman in 10,000 is just.

Or is it only a coincidence that she is unique among women, being greeted by an Archangel: "Hail, graceful being!"? Dissimilar also to the prophets.

I see how you Catholic get into this. I could go on. If experience is any guide, I could easily go too far, also.
Well, and I can't argue with father Irenei (above), really, concerning their common meaning, can I?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 01:33:17 AM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2017, 12:35:49 AM »
2. Sharbel, I agree with Bp. Kallistos Ware when he said "The Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, if only they had shared the doctrine of original sin" (roughly, from memory). To answer that and your objection, we need to speak a little more about original sin.
Firstly, set aside the Catholic bias that reads Immaculate Conception in every loose statement about the sinlessness of the Mother of God.  This dogma only makes sense in the West, strongly influenced by St. Augustine's idea of inherited sin.  Yet, many Eastern Fathers proclaimed her sinlessness without reference to original sin, thus to the Immaculate Conception, but to her exceeding virtue.

Quote from: Xavier
Do you agree with these two early Councils on original sin?
Do you agree that these are local councils, not ecumenical ones?  Therefore, they are not infallible, so to say.    No, I do not agree with these Western councils that pretty much just paraphrase St. Augustine.

Quote from: Xavier
Now, to the objection - here are two texts to ponder that say Mary was free from the penalty of bodily death, She chose to die voluntarily and freely (just as She was free from natural birth pangs, but chose to undergo them at the Cross in giving birth to us, for this the Catholic Church honors Her as Queen of Martyrs", in the same way She freely chose to sleep in death before Her body was Assumed higher than the heavens, but without needing to)...

God raising Her bodily above the heavens is another sign, like Her naturally painless birth, that Mary is everything Eve was meant to be but was not. Mary succeeded in everything Eve failed at. Both Jesus and Mary never needed to die but chose to.
Again, set aside the Catholic bias for a moment...  And, please, set aside pious speculations too.

Having said this, "the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth" (cf. 1Tim 3:15), not this Church Father or that one.  The Church celebrates the Feast of the Dormitioin of the Mother of God, which means that she fell asleep; she died.  This feast is also celebrated by the Eastern Catholic Churches, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, which celebrates this date as the feast of the Assumption of Mary.  AFAIK, the Catholic Church did not define dogmatically whether the Blessed Virgin died or not.  Yet, it wouldn't surprise that it would do define its version of things dogmatically, as it's done every so often.

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception actually diminishes the greatness of the one that even the Heavens cannot contain, the Virgin Mary.  For, though being subject to death like us and unlike Eve, she remained sinless, showing us that the human race doesn't have to be immaculate from conception to live a sinless life.  Not to mention that to suggest that God, the one incapable of evil, creates new souls at conception with the evil of sin in them is absurd.

No, St. Augustine, one of my favorite saints, goofed up on the original sin, regrettably influencing first N. Africa with this speculation and then Rome.  And here do I stand.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2017, 12:44:50 AM »
Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council?
Why?  Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.  It used to be done only under the duress of heresy, but after Trent it's done that liberally for no good reason and not without consternation in and outside.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #101 on: November 28, 2017, 07:02:13 AM »
Okay, this is all a bit new to me, so please forgive me if err.

May I say that I have saved myself (hypothetically speaking), according to St. Peter in The Acts of the Apostles, Ch. 2 V. 40?
Quote
And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

We all have our biases, afterall.

Alright, let's not make this about me. Let's say the saints. Is it permissible to say that the the saints also saved themselves? Because there's one for any Calvinist to consider, amiright?

Might be best to do this one in a new thread. In short I think the answer is, and even Calvin would likely agree, Philippians 2:13. Our good works are still the product of the grace of God.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2017, 07:08:33 AM »
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception actually diminishes the greatness of the one that even the Heavens cannot contain, the Virgin Mary.  For, though being subject to death like us and unlike Eve, she remained sinless, showing us that the human race doesn't have to be immaculate from conception to live a sinless life.

Good point.

Not to mention that to suggest that God, the one incapable of evil, creates new souls at conception with the evil of sin in them is absurd.

Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 07:12:54 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2017, 10:08:28 AM »
Also, I don't recall St. John Chrysostom ever recanting his speculations about Mary sinning in thought. Did he?

Since this opinion was basically repeated in St Theophylact's commentary, I'm guessing no.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2017, 10:54:59 AM »
There is no pronoun in the Latin, Mor. The translation is faulty and should be "He assumed His Mother's Nature, without fault" (Latin: Assumpta est de Matre Domini natura, non culpa). There is no Her. He became true Man by His nativity from His Mother thereby assuming Her nature as He shared His eternal Father's nature by His eternal birth. Such is the doctrine of Pope St. Leo I. There is no reference to a fault of the Virgin in the text.

Not so fast. Possession is often implied in Latin without using pronouns. And in this case, I am strongly in favor of Mor's cited translation. The ablative of respect for "natura" and "non culpa" strongly imply the possession of the Virgin Mary. The use of the verb "assumo" adds further weight in favor of this translation.

I would like to further suggest that we take a look at the Greek as well. I don't read Greek, so I'ma just post it here and hope and ask that others translate it, since there are many Greek readers here. I think I've extracted the correct portion of the text, so here:

Quote
Καὶ προσελήφθη ἐκ τῆς μητρὸς τοῦ δεσπότου φύσις, οὐχ ἁμαρτία· οὐ μὴν ἐπειδήπερ ἐν τῷ δεσπότῃ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ τῷ τεχθέντι ἐκ τῆς γαστρὸς τῆς παρθένου θαυμαστὴ τίς ἐστιν ἡ γέννησις, διὰ τοῦτο ἡμῖν οὐχ ἡ φύσις ὁμοία· ὁ γὰρ ὢν Θεὸς ἀληθὴς, αὐτός ἐστι καὶ ἄνθρωπος ἀληθής.

The full Greek passage can be found at the following link and pdf download on column/page 768. It should be in section A: http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0440-0461__SS_Leo_I._Magnus__Epistolae__MLT.pdf.html

Please don't slap me for not posting a translation. I simply don't know Greek.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2017, 11:04:15 AM »
Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
Man is not a primary creator, creating something out of nothing, only God is.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 11:10:44 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2017, 11:14:15 AM »
Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
Man is not a primary creator, creating something out of nothing, only God is.

In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2017, 01:27:15 PM »
Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council?
Why?  Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.  It used to be done only under the duress of heresy, but after Trent it's done that liberally for no good reason and not without consternation in and outside.

Why indeed. So true.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2017, 01:27:40 PM »
Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
Man is not a primary creator, creating something out of nothing, only God is.

In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.

Fascinating.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2017, 10:56:36 PM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
:o
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #110 on: November 29, 2017, 03:01:46 AM »
Quote from: Mcarmichael
The hymns are to follow:

The services of the Church proclaim that the Theotokos was/is...

* ‘never subject to the taint of sin’ (Feast of the Entry, ode 9 at matins, first canon) This, I should think, is about as direct as one could ask for.

‘a temple truly divine … innocent from the time she was a babe’
(Feast of the Entry, sessional hymn at matins) Note how this ascription ensures that we do not simply believe that her purity was physical (i.e. her virginity), but stresses 'innocence', which is a condition of soul.

‘undefiled’ and ‘all-undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Doxastikon at vespers; ode 1 at matins; many other places)

* ‘she who alone is undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Lity) Note the stress that is placed here on the unique nature of the Theotokos being undefiled. I draw attention to this, because one of the common arguments offered by those seeking to depart from the teaching of the Fathers on this topic, is that descriptions of the Virgin as 'pure' and 'undefiled' refer to her virginity -- i.e. that these are not references to a question of sin, but to physical virginity. However, this hymn says that the Theotokos is 'alone' in being undefiled: something that is clearly not true of 'undefiled' merely means virginal, as there are many people who are virginal.

How beautiful. Thanks for this, Mcarmichael. It's like we read in the infancy Gospel of St. Matthew, how the Immaculate Virgin was so gentle, so amiable, so chaste, so pure, so universally admired even when She was but an Infant, "And Mary was held in admiration by all the people of Israel; and when she was three years old, she walked with a step so mature, she spoke so perfectly, and spent her time so assiduously in the praises of God, that all were astonished at her, and wondered; and she was not reckoned a young infant, but as it were a grown-up person of thirty years old. She was so constant in prayer, and her appearance was so beautiful and glorious, that scarcely any one could look into her face. And she occupied herself constantly with her wool-work, so that she in her tender years could do all that old women were not able to do. And this was the order that she had set for herself: From the morning to the third hour she remained in prayer; from the third to the ninth she was occupied with her weaving; and from the ninth she again applied herself to prayer. She did not retire from praying until there appeared to her the angel of the Lord, from whose hand she used to receive food; and thus she became more and more perfect in the work of God. Then, when the older virgins rested from the praises of God, she did not rest at all; so that in the praises and vigils of God none were found before her, no one more learned in the wisdom of the law of God, more lowly in humility, more elegant in singing, more perfect in all virtue.

She was indeed steadfast, immoveable, unchangeable, and daily advancing to perfection. No one saw her angry, nor heard her speaking evil. All her speech was so full of grace, that her God was acknowledged to be in her tongue. She was always engaged in prayer and in searching the law, and she was anxious lest by any word of hers she should sin with regard to her companions. Then she was afraid lest in her laughter, or the sound of her beautiful voice, she should commit any fault, or lest, being elated, she should display any wrong-doing or haughtiness to one of her equals. She blessed God without intermission; and lest perchance, even in her salutation, she might cease from praising God; if any one saluted her, she used to answer by way of salutation: Thanks be to God. And from her the custom first began of men saying, Thanks be to God, when they saluted each other. She refreshed herself only with the food which she daily received from the hand of the angel; but the food which she obtained from the priests she divided among the poor. The angels of God were often seen speaking with her, and they most diligently obeyed her. If any one who was unwell touched her, the same hour he went home cured."

Biblically, we see Mary and Jesus prophesied in Gen 3:15, as having a special enmity with Satan and his offspring. The Seed of a Woman prophesy already foretells a divine Messiah will be born of a Virgin Mother to crush the Serpent's head. In Revelation, we see the Ark of God carried up into Heaven, not a physical Ark made of gold, but a Woman whose golden Heart was stainless, crowned by God with 12 stars, which indicates also that She possessed the 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit in their plenitude during Her earthly life. She is shown clothed with the glory of the sun, with the moon under Her feet, and together with Her seed, in enmity with Satan. As you point out, the Angel salutes Her as Hail, full of grace, so reverently, whereas men like Abraham and Lot in turn venerated and bowed before the Angels who appeared to them. Finally, John the Baptist, of whom the Angel said he would be filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb, leaps in joy at the presence of Jesus and Mary, while St. Elizabeth, in immortal words that would never cease to be repeated in the Church, cries out "Blessed are You among women and blessed is the fruit of Your womb" and "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me" paralleling what David said in 2 Sam 6, "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me". The Ark which remained for 3 months and brought the Lord God's blessings. The Queen of Prophets said, "Surely all generations henceforth shall call Me Blessed, for He that is mighty has done great things to me" as indeed has come to pass in every generation, a prophesy fulfilled to the letter. Mary is a matchless wonder wrought by the Omnipotent hand of the Most High. I like what an Eastern professor said after hearing Pope Pius IX declare the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, "We have always believed and always taught this doctrine. This point is too sacred to give rise to quarrels and it has no need of a deputation from Rome."

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #111 on: November 29, 2017, 03:18:41 AM »
Sharbel, there are many ways to answer what you said, but I will make use of a Biblical one - your opinion, if I understand it right, is essentially that no one is born in sin, that everyone has the Holy Spirit indwelling him since birth, from which it would follow in fact that we are all immaculately conceived. For, you say, "to suggest that God, the one incapable of evil, creates new souls at conception with the evil of sin in them is absurd". This contradicts what St. Paul said, what King David said, and what the Angel said. For, as mentioned above, the Angel implies that children are not usually filled with the Holy Spirit, and that John the Baptist would be so filled as a special grace. This shows that we do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling us naturally until God gives Him to us. We do not have him by natural birth and so must be born again, supernaturally regenerated by grace. God gives Him to us as He chooses, ordinarily in baptism, He gave it to the Baptist in the womb, and to She who was holier than the Baptist and an instrument in his sanctification, before that.

And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This is that hereditary Stain of which the Stainless Ark of the Lord - Who Alone is made All-Holy by the grace of Him Who is All-Holy by nature - is free. It is to Her that He speaks, "You are all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee" in the Song of Solomon. And He calls Her a Lily among Thorns in the same Song for the same reason, as the Fathers understand. She, as Mother of the Church, is already "without spot or wrinkle" as St. Paul says the Church will be on the Last Day. A daughter, a Princess, beholds in a Mother, a Queen, what She Herself will be in the end. That is what the Church beholds in Mary, a perfect exemplar of theosis, the symbol of the human soul fully sanctified, being that spotless tabernacle of God she was meant to be.

By venerating Her as altogether Stainless, we receive a share in Her merits, our sanctification will progress more swiftly, and finally, we will be made perfect like Her, and able to live without sin. Were we all so perfect at age 3, or even around age 15-16 when She left the temple (and the priests said, The Glory of God itself seems to have left the temple now that Mary is no longer there) that we could demand, like Her, that we also ought to be immaculately conceived? If we are cradle Christians, we receive the grace of sanctification in infancy, in holy baptism. John the Baptist and some others received it in the womb. God gives His grace as He chooses, He does not need to consult us for it first. Why should we complain, especially since because of Mary and Jesus, we are now regenerated in baptism? Your opinion of original sin makes baptism meaningless. Granted that Carthage is not Ecumenical, its logic is still incontrovertible. If we are not truly born in sin, that means baptism is not truly for the remission of sins, and the Creed of the universal Church is wrong. Baptism causes us to be infilled with the Spirit whom by natural birth we do not have. For "all that is born of flesh is flesh. And all that is born of Spirit is spirit. Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit ..." etc

You may read it differently, but When we Catholics read St. Ambrose, "A Virgin without any stain of sin, whom grace has made immaculate", or hear Origen say "our heavenly guides, the Apostles, instituted baptism even for infants since they knew there was even in infants the stain of sin" and the Liturgy and all Sacred Tradition say Mary is Stainless, it seems evident to us that by this very term Stainless is meant that She is free not only from personal sins, but also the original sin, the hereditary stain of sin. You can call that a Catholic bias if you want, but I think the meaning is plain. Stainless means to be entirely without the stain of sin.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #112 on: November 29, 2017, 05:47:09 AM »

And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This is that hereditary Stain of which the Stainless Ark of the Lord - Who Alone is made All-Holy by the grace of Him Who is All-Holy by nature - is free. It is to Her that He speaks, "You are all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee" in the Song of Solomon. And He calls Her a Lily among Thorns in the same Song for the same reason, as the Fathers understand. She, as Mother of the Church, is already "without spot or wrinkle" as St. Paul says the Church will be on the Last Day.


Why is it that every time I learn of a new Theotokian typology, it blows my mind?
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #113 on: November 29, 2017, 06:07:42 AM »

Quote
And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us.
This is not the same as inherited guilt, little children are not guilty for the sin of Adam, they however inherite this condition.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #114 on: November 29, 2017, 07:13:23 AM »
Quote
"Canon 2 (529 A.D) "If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle" and it means simply that we are born deprived of indwelling grace until we are born again in Baptism. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Councils/Orange.htm Original sin, says St. Thomas Aquinas, is formally, the privation of sanctifying grace. Original sin is very clear in early Councils.

"Council of Carthage, Canon 2 (418 A.D) Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as falseand not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it.

These do not clarify whether we inherite guilt for Adams sin.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #115 on: November 29, 2017, 09:21:50 AM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
:o

I don't see what the problem is unless one believes in some kind of Cartesian dualism in which the soul has to be completely unconnected from the body.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #116 on: November 29, 2017, 02:51:32 PM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
:o

I don't see what the problem is unless one believes in some kind of Cartesian dualism in which the soul has to be completely unconnected from the body.

I don't know if it's "a problem," but it's not Christianity. In the scriptural and sacred tradition, souls of men are God-breathed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #117 on: November 29, 2017, 03:38:43 PM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
:o

I don't see what the problem is unless one believes in some kind of Cartesian dualism in which the soul has to be completely unconnected from the body.

I don't know if it's "a problem," but it's not Christianity. In the scriptural and sacred tradition, souls of men are God-breathed.

And so they are. The same "material" that God gave Adam just gets recombined and reconstituted.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #118 on: November 29, 2017, 03:52:10 PM »
Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2017, 04:03:21 PM »
Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?

No? Sort of? Good luck getting Catholics to pin down which documents are infallible and which are not.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2017, 04:54:19 PM »
Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?

Definitely not infallible, as it's often changed. Just has that Vatican-brand infallible tone.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2017, 05:01:40 PM »
As I recall, up until Vatican I, the Irish version was calling Papal Infallibility a "Protestant myth."
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #122 on: November 30, 2017, 03:29:35 AM »

And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This is that hereditary Stain of which the Stainless Ark of the Lord - Who Alone is made All-Holy by the grace of Him Who is All-Holy by nature - is free. It is to Her that He speaks, "You are all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee" in the Song of Solomon. And He calls Her a Lily among Thorns in the same Song for the same reason, as the Fathers understand. She, as Mother of the Church, is already "without spot or wrinkle" as St. Paul says the Church will be on the Last Day.


Why is it that every time I learn of a new Theotokian typology, it blows my mind?

It is beautiful, isn't it, like all Marian theology.

I. Mary as stainless type of the stainless Church as Bride of the Spirit is taught explicitly by both St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Ephraim of Syria. It is repeated in Lumen Gentium and the Catechism doesn't hesitate to say, "Mary goes before us all in the holiness that is the Church's mystery as "the bride without spot or wrinkle."194 This is why the "Marian" dimension of the Church precedes the "Petrine."195.  (CCC 773) Indeed, though St. Ambrose popularized the maxim Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia, we may summarize his Marian thought as Ubi Maria, Ibi Ecclesia. St. Ephraim also sees Mary giving Her fiat in the name of the whole Church. "829 "But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy." (CCC 829). It seems to us no coincidence at all these two Saints most clearly and explicitly taught that Mary was without any stain at all.

Some more testimonies -

1. St. Mark the Apostle and Evangelist, Divine Liturgy, "Most holy, immaculate, and blessed Mother of God, and ever Virgin Mary." Latin: "Sanctissima, immaculata, et benedicta, Deipara et semper virgine Maria."

2. St. James the Apostle, Bishop of Jerusalem, Divine Liturgy, "Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin ... in every respect out of the range of sinful men." and

3. St. Andrew the Apostle, whose feast we celebrate today, "And therefore, because the first man was created of immaculate earth, it was necessary that of an immaculate Virgin should be born a perfect man, that the Son of God should restore that eternal life which men had lost." Latin: "Et propterea, quod ex immaculatâ terrâ ereatus fuerat primus homo, necesse erat ut ex immaculatâ Virgine nasceretur perfectus homo, quo Filius Dei, qui antè condiderat hominem, vitam æternam quam perdiderant hominess, repararet." and

4. "Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], says that God formed Mary "without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato]."
WRH: Mary was sinless at the moment of her formation, i.e., she did not contract original sin.

The saintly bishop [Lambruschini 162] adds [Orat. in S. Deip. et Simeon], "He who formed the first Virgin without deformity, also made the second one without spot or sin." Latin: "Qui antiquam illam virginem sine probro condidit; Ipse, et secundam, sine nota et crimine fabricatus est."
WRH: Since Mary, like Eve, was made without sin, Mary did not contract original sin. St. Amphilochius [On the Presentation 8 in PG 39:57C]" http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.in/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html

II. Vanyho, Original sin probably requires another thread, but here's the CCC on the subject. I have a question for you, is baptism for the remission of sins or not? if so, what sin is remitted in infant baptism? The answer is original sin, where the death of the soul is healed, and the life of the Spirit infused into her. "we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin
[/u]" http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:33:02 AM by Xavier »

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #123 on: November 30, 2017, 01:16:00 PM »
Quote
I have a question for you, is baptism for the remission of sins or not? if so, what sin is remitted in infant baptism? The answer is original sin, where the death of the soul is healed, and the life of the Spirit infused into her. "
Are you trying to repudiate yourself ?

You still haven't proved infants are guilty for adam's sin, you only proved that they need to be healed.

The the Holy Virgin wasn't guilty for the sin of adam that makes the doctrine of the immaculate conception unnecessary, actually is more than that, this doctrine denies Her merits (willingly or unwillingly) since if She was born without broken condition but in the state of Eve prior to the fall, then it follows that She didn't need any effort what so ever to achieve what she achieved, on the contrary, we believe that Her great achievements is due to her great effort (cooperating with the grace of God), thus She is the greatest ascetic who ever lived.

now lets not get sidetracked, this topic is not about the honor of the Theotokos, this topic is about the honor of the pope, you see ? you are even willing to take away the merits of the Mother of God (knowingly or unknowingly), as long as your pope is proven infallible, which he is not.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 01:27:27 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #124 on: November 30, 2017, 01:31:18 PM »
Do Roman infants grow up never to sin then, Xavier? I think you're confusing the purpose of baptism with the purpose of your "last rites." Of course baptism washes away human error, but that like all mortal salvation is ongoing thru life: thru repentance, confession, prayer and fasting, and other spiritual rescue and growth. Baptism is a commencement of remittance of sin.

Altho it is worth noting too the context of your allusion and that most of those Christ and the Apostles invited to baptism were men and women old in sins.

The rest of your post is the usual sophistry of snippets and conflations, not worth addressing.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 01:36:04 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2017, 04:53:49 PM »
Quote
I have a question for you, is baptism for the remission of sins or not? if so, what sin is remitted in infant baptism? The answer is original sin, where the death of the soul is healed, and the life of the Spirit infused into her. "
Are you trying to repudiate yourself ?

You still haven't proved infants are guilty for adam's sin, you only proved that they need to be healed.

The the Holy Virgin wasn't guilty for the sin of adam that makes the doctrine of the immaculate conception unnecessary, actually is more than that, this doctrine denies Her merits (willingly or unwillingly) since if She was born without broken condition but in the state of Eve prior to the fall, then it follows that She didn't need any effort what so ever to achieve what she achieved, on the contrary, we believe that Her great achievements is due to her great effort (cooperating with the grace of God), thus She is the greatest ascetic who ever lived.

now lets not get sidetracked, this topic is not about the honor of the Theotokos, this topic is about the honor of the pope, you see ? you are even willing to take away the merits of the Mother of God (knowingly or unknowingly), as long as your pope is proven infallible, which he is not.

I was thinking some more about this line of argumentation again today. If Christ is incapable of sin, that doesn't take away from the fact that He kept the whole of the Law, right? So, maybe if Mary is incapable of sin, she can still have merit too.

I mean, Christ's sinlessness is first and foremost because of His divinity, so the two cases can't be exactly comparable (well, maybe if you believe she's a quasi-Incarnation like Maximilian Kolbe, but anyway), but it sill makes me wonder.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #126 on: December 01, 2017, 01:22:45 PM »
Quote
I was thinking some more about this line of argumentation again today. If Christ is incapable of sin, that doesn't take away from the fact that He kept the whole of the Law, right? So, maybe if Mary is incapable of sin, she can still have merit too.
Christ is Himself the law and the giver of the law, His merits are of different kind than the merits of created people, furthermore the merits of people are not any good by themselves but only serve as means to unite with Christ, who is author and giver of everything good in this world and Who have prepared what eye have not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, for those who love Him.

A good humanitarian for example, have his good deeds and merits in a way, but he is already taking his reward when he brags about it in front of the camera, and such doesn't unite with Christ nor gain the kingdom of heaven and his merits are more or less useless.

Or a buddist monk for example, he may fast, he may abstain from the world, he may pray, he may live in a cave but all this is completely useless since he is not doing it for Christ or His heavenly kingdom. Such person is completely wasting his time.

Merits are only good if they gain you Christ's love and His heavenly kingdom.

Although Christ kept the law, do not think of the Lord as someone Who needs to follow the law, think of Him as the law Himself and the giver of the law.

And this is why the logic you are trying to apply doesn't work.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:27:03 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #127 on: December 01, 2017, 01:38:00 PM »
I was thinking some more about this line of argumentation again today. If Christ is incapable of sin, that doesn't take away from the fact that He kept the whole of the Law, right? So, maybe if Mary is incapable of sin, she can still have merit too.

I mean, Christ's sinlessness is first and foremost because of His divinity, so the two cases can't be exactly comparable (well, maybe if you believe she's a quasi-Incarnation like Maximilian Kolbe, but anyway), but it sill makes me wonder.

As I recall the way it's usually discussed, e.g. in the letter to the Hebrews, Christ's unique "merit" pertains to his submitting to human flesh, as truly he is God. A mortal's merit would be complementary but opposite, viz., emulating God in spite of consisting in human flesh. And in fact the Theotokos does seem placed in just such harmonious apposition to the Son, as St. John Baptist also is sometimes positioned, being the most godlike of mortals in their categories, while Christ is (pardon the wording) the manlike God. But I think I get what your point is, tho I'm not sure myself what to make of it.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2017, 02:50:44 AM »
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?
No.  The CCC may contain infallible teachings, but it itself ain't infallible..The only whole text that the Catholic Church deems infallible is its translation of the Holy Scriptures, the Vulgata... or is it the Nova Vulgata?  Wait, which edition?  Ah, forget it!
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2017, 02:51:20 AM »
Sharbel, there are many ways to answer what you said, but I will make use of a Biblical one - your opinion, if I understand it right, is essentially that no one is born in sin, that everyone has the Holy Spirit indwelling him since birth...
Since the emphasized text was never mentioned, though it's curious that someone who believes in the original sinfulness of human nature assumed it as necessary otherwise, what followed was irrelevant.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 02:53:02 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2017, 09:56:29 AM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned. The Fathers call original sin the "stain of sin" and they call Her the Stainless one. The implication is evident. St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

You're claiming that God creates stained people? :o

No implication. "He made Him Who knew no sin to be sin for us." No need for the IC.
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How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #132 on: December 19, 2017, 09:31:56 AM »
The demons are often forced by God to confess the Truth, as we read in the Gospel of St. Mark.

Mk 3:11 And the unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him: and they cried, saying: 12Thou art the Son of God. And he strictly charged them that they should not make him known.

Ialmisry, the Angels are not stained; man is. Your argument is with Origen "our heavenly guides, the Apostles ordained even for infants because they knew there is even in infants the stain of sin" and with Carthage, the Creed etc. Since baptism is for the remission of sin, it follows that infants naturally contract the stain of original sin until they are supernaturally regenerated in baptism.

Vanyho, if infants need to be healed, of what are they actually healed in baptism? Not of the death of the body, but of the death of the soul, as that synod teaches, which death of the soul in them is called original sin. Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism.

And if being created in grace makes it impossible to sin, then how did Eve sin? In truth, Mary Immaculate never sinned and all Her works were most perfect, but She had always had a holy fear , as we read in the excerpt earlier, "then She was afraid that at the sound of Her beautiful voice" etc and this admirable humility and practice of striving to avoid the least sin throughout Her life kept Her sinless. One's will must be perfected by grace before sin becomes impossible to one, as it is to the Saints and Angels in heaven, who now can sin more, and to God by nature. As for any Pope or any man, he is a sinner and goes to confession like everyone else.

Porter, baptism is not just for "men and women old in sins" and when the Creed was promulgated in the fourth century, the vast majority of those receiving remission of sins in baptism were infants. The stain of original sin is the death of the soul. What is the meaning of the Holy Spirit saying to His Bride "Thou art all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee"? Mary is that blessed lily among which the thorns of original sin did never grow.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:34:35 AM by Xavier »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2017, 12:02:19 PM »
You certainly have a gift for twisting every word not only if Fathers but of other posters.

So now infants are not subject to bodily illness and weakness? Are you willing to stand by this as Catholic dogma?
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #134 on: December 19, 2017, 12:05:57 PM »
Did I say that? I said "Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism."

I am at a loss to understand how you got "infants are not subject to bodily illness and weakness" from that. It is their soul that was dead to grace because of Adam and is now reborn to life because of Christ. How did you get the part about bodily illness, I'm not following.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 12:06:14 PM by Xavier »