Author Topic: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.  (Read 7839 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2017, 12:40:03 PM »
Did I say that? I said "Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism."

I am at a loss to understand how you got "infants are not subject to bodily illness and weakness" from that. It is their soul that was dead to grace because of Adam and is now reborn to life because of Christ. How did you get the part about bodily illness, I'm not following.

Yes, you did say that in response to Isa. But you made superficial and sophistical replies to all of us, so my concern is less for your understanding than for your soul. Holy baptism is a subject you should be willing to listen to seriously.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #136 on: December 19, 2017, 01:10:06 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #137 on: December 19, 2017, 01:33:33 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #138 on: December 19, 2017, 01:51:52 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?
That is a very complex question, there is a difference between Grace and Grace, for example God's sustaining energy without which it is not possible to exist is different than His saving energy that leads to theosis and is different than his protecting energy.

For example a person may not be on the path of salvation but be perfectly protected by God's Grace.

@Xavier
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The demons are often forced by God to confess the Truth, as we read in the Gospel of St. Mark.
And what about the cases when God is not forcing them ?
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Vanyho, if infants need to be healed, of what are they actually healed in baptism? Not of the death of the body, but of the death of the soul, as that synod teaches, which death of the soul in them is called original sin. Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism.
A newborn is not guilty of any sins, the original sin is not something the baby did wrong, its something the baby inherited, so it is improper to say that the baby is guilty of sin even though its born with original sin.

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And if being created in grace makes it impossible to sin, then how did Eve sin?
Eve was deceived, and when God gave her the opportunity to repent, she did not and instead blamed the snake, same with adam, he blamed the woman.

Notice however, the devil had no access to Eve's feelings or thoughts, he could not insert suggestions or feelings in her so he had to come to her as a snake and verbally mislead her.

So yes, apart from that small window of opportunity for the devil, it was absolutely not possible for Adam and Eve to sin, just as it is not possible for a sane person to eat his poop.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 01:55:49 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #139 on: December 19, 2017, 03:19:13 PM »
So yes, apart from that small window of opportunity for the devil, it was absolutely not possible for Adam and Eve to sin, just as it is not possible for a sane person to eat his poop.

The fact that they both sinned disproved this very notion. They sinned when they were tempted despite their original holiness. You are right in that Adam and Eve were deceived but even in deception there may be culpability. This is true for they knew that they were not to eat of the fruits of the Tree of knowledge, yet they did. In fact they even mentioned this to the serpent so they knew what they were doing was wrong. This is why what they did was a sin of which they were culpable resulting in them losing their sanctifying grace. Mortal sins (Sins which result in the loss of sanctifying grace) need culpability as a factor.

So as we can see our parents were made in grace, knew not to eat the fruits and still did. If grace reduces our ability to choose, then our parents could not have been said to be made with free will. So when you say the could not have sinned without an outside tempter, this insuantes that their will was not free and that only the devil can make it so for without him, the never could have chosen evil under your statement. This is seriously problematic.

Man as he was created could still have chosen evil. It was possible for our parents to sin. The Angels were made much like us in this respect. They were made good and with free will like man yet many of them chose evil and sinned against God. The reason we are given the chance of repentance and forgiveness for our sins while they are not is because unlike us, they had no tempter. They were fully, in and of themselves, responsible for their own sin. So grace does not destroy free will. Rather grace nourishes the will to do good. It increases the good but does not remedy the disorder in us. It makes it possible for us to resist our nature which is fallen. Man will be restored to his original holiness once he meets his meets his maker.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 03:31:52 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #140 on: December 19, 2017, 03:22:05 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.

No, God breathes life (physical) in them. They are born devoid of sanctifying grace (spiritual life). The grace of creation is a different kind of grace.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 03:22:46 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #141 on: December 19, 2017, 04:57:27 PM »
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If grace reduces our ability to choose, then our parents could not have been said to be made with free will.
You are not paying attention to what i am saying, also free will is not exactly choosing good or evil.


Notice however, the devil had no access to Eve's feelings or thoughts, he could not insert suggestions or feelings in her so he had to come to her as a snake and verbally mislead her.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #142 on: December 19, 2017, 05:15:24 PM »
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If grace reduces our ability to choose, then our parents could not have been said to be made with free will.
You are not paying attention to what i am saying
If I’ve misunderstood please may you tell me where I have misunderstood you.

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also free will is not exactly choosing good or evil.

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind. If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.

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Notice however, the devil had no access to Eve's feelings or thoughts, he could not insert suggestions or feelings in her so he had to come to her as a snake and verbally mislead her.
This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.

Thus the Mother of God though Immaculately conceived (Made in the state as our parents at their creation) could still have sinned but she did not choose to and rather found true freedom in God aligning herself to him rather than bondage to the slavery of sin through choosing evil acts like our first parents did. The dogma does not in any way take away the merits of her sinless life but exalts her as the greatest amongst all men for our parents, made like her, did not achieve what she did.

This confirms that in God all things are made new and good again. The dogma explains and gives context the traditional appellation of Our Lord being the new Adam and The Mother of God the New Eve for unlike our first parents they remained pure and immaculate.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 05:25:56 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

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-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #143 on: December 19, 2017, 10:26:59 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.

No, God breathes life (physical) in them. They are born devoid of sanctifying grace (spiritual life). The grace of creation is a different kind of grace.

And then what is death -- if unbaptized infants die they die only physically, in the same way as they are according to you born only physically? After which they then of course also are damned only physically? And the Church can do nothing for the sick or weak, by that token, having a purely spiritual salvific function. Catholicism is very curious.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #144 on: December 20, 2017, 05:17:21 AM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.

No, God breathes life (physical) in them. They are born devoid of sanctifying grace (spiritual life). The grace of creation is a different kind of grace.

And then what is death -- if unbaptized infants die they die only physically, in the same way as they are according to you born only physically?After which they then of course also are damned only physically?

The die physically. Theologicaly we have speculated that they do not go to heaven at some points in our history (Limbo of the infants), these days we hope God shows them mercy as infants but we do not know if God sends them to hell where the spiritually dead go.

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And the Church can do nothing for the sick or weak, by that token, having a purely spiritual salvific function. Catholicism is very curious.
This follows no logic at all. We have doctors for that, physicians and scientists for that. The church builds hospitals, halfway houses, schools and centers for the disabled and mentally incapacitated amongst other things. The church, following her spiritual mandate, carries out acts of charity which incorporate both spiritual and some physical works.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 05:19:22 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #145 on: December 20, 2017, 12:49:49 PM »
This follows no logic at all.

You don't say.

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We have doctors for that, physicians and scientists for that.

You're missing the point, but also making your church's theology seem even more barren than before.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #146 on: December 20, 2017, 01:33:05 PM »
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So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind.
Without the tempter's deception it wouldn't have been possible for our parents to sin, they would have obeyed God perfectly.

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If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.
Wrong. God did not create evil, and Adam and Eve couldn't choose evil, even the devil as a creation was not evil, he is however evil in his mission, that is - to get all of mankind condemned.

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This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.
It has a bearing in this way: after the fall the devil gained the right to influence mankind from inside, and he does that to confuse & lead to peril, before that he couldn't do it because our parents had perfect grace or to say it in other words, they were walled with divine fire. They couldn't choose evil because they did not have that influence inside.

If you define free will strictly as choosing good and evil then we have a the next problem:
If you can infact choose and act upon evil with perfect grace and without the deceiver misleading you, does it follow that after the resurrection of the dead you have an eternity of time to make to an evil choice ? And when you do that, does it mean you get cast out from heaven again ? But then Christ's saints will not enjoy His inheritance forever....





« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 01:35:55 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #147 on: December 20, 2017, 04:32:19 PM »
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So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind.
Without the tempter's deception it wouldn't have been possible for our parents to sin, they would have obeyed God perfectly.
Impossible means they would not have had the ability to. This destroys their free will. If it’s is impossible to sin when made immaculate then the angels would not have fell for that would be impossible. Tradition makes plain how the angels fell yet they had no tempter and were made immaculate like our first parents. It is possible to sin even without a tempter. That was proved when one third of the angels sinned and fell because of that. This is because they had free will. For God does not force us to serve and worship him, we choose that. We can choose Him or reject Him. Some angels, even though made pure and immaculate, chose to reject God. So it is possible to to not obey God even though made immaculate but that results in a loss of your immaculate state through your sin.

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If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.
Wrong. God did not create evil, and Adam and Eve couldn't choose evil, even the devil as a creation was not evil, he is however evil in his mission, that is - to get all of mankind condemned.
Your whole theology about evil is wrong. Yes God did not create evil. That is not because evil is a thing but rather because evil is the description of the lack of something. That is the lack of goodness which is God himself. It describes the separation of the creature from the Creator. That is why evil is not a thing but things are evil.

Thus the devil and the demons are evil because they are separated from God, they are devoid of goodness. That is why it was possible for them to choose evil, as in become separated from God, which resulted in their fall.

Our parent likewise could have done the same thing even without the need of tempter for like the angels, they have free will.

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This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.
It has a bearing in this way: after the fall the devil gained the right to influence mankind from inside, and he does that to confuse & lead to peril, before that he couldn't do it because our parents had perfect grace or to say it in other words, they were walled with divine fire. They couldn't choose evil because they did not have that influence inside.

If you define free will strictly as choosing good and evil then we have a the next problem:
If you can infact choose and act upon evil with perfect grace and without the deceiver misleading you, does it follow that after the resurrection of the dead you have an eternity of time to make to an evil choice ? And when you do that, does it mean you get cast out from heaven again ? But then Christ's saints will not enjoy His inheritance forever....

I did not define it as strictly good and evil but it does include good and evil. That is fundemantal Christianity. Man will not fall again after the resurrection not because of being immaculate and pure and so (by your reasoning) deprived of the ability to choose evil. Rather it is because those who are resurrected to the Glory of God will not choose that because through their life they desired to unite their soul and will to God. They embrace the grace of God rather than reject it. This is the same reason the angels in heaven do not fall again. Those that chose God will not reject him for they have chosen to submit their will to him. That is their state of being.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 04:38:55 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #148 on: December 20, 2017, 08:12:23 PM »
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So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind.
Without the tempter's deception it wouldn't have been possible for our parents to sin, they would have obeyed God perfectly.

Quote
If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.
Wrong. God did not create evil, and Adam and Eve couldn't choose evil, even the devil as a creation was not evil, he is however evil in his mission, that is - to get all of mankind condemned.

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This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.
It has a bearing in this way: after the fall the devil gained the right to influence mankind from inside, and he does that to confuse & lead to peril, before that he couldn't do it because our parents had perfect grace or to say it in other words, they were walled with divine fire. They couldn't choose evil because they did not have that influence inside.

If you define free will strictly as choosing good and evil then we have a the next problem:
If you can infact choose and act upon evil with perfect grace and without the deceiver misleading you, does it follow that after the resurrection of the dead you have an eternity of time to make to an evil choice ? And when you do that, does it mean you get cast out from heaven again ? But then Christ's saints will not enjoy His inheritance forever....

Some deep perceptions here.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #149 on: December 20, 2017, 10:20:24 PM »
Theologicaly we have speculated that they do not go to heaven at some points in our history (Limbo of the infants), these days we hope God shows them mercy as infants but we do not know if God sends them to hell where the spiritually dead go.
A god who sends innocent children, whose only fault is his having created them, to where the spiritually dead go is not my god.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #150 on: December 21, 2017, 02:01:01 PM »
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If it’s is impossible to sin when made immaculate then the angels would not have fell for that would be impossible. Tradition makes plain how the angels fell yet they had no tempter and were made immaculate like our first parents. It is possible to sin even without a tempter. That was proved when one third of the angels sinned and fell because of that. This is because they had free will. For God does not force us to serve and worship him, we choose that. We can choose Him or reject Him. Some angels, even though made pure and immaculate, chose to reject God. So it is possible to to not obey God even though made immaculate but that results in a loss of your immaculate state through your sin.
Finally you make a good argument, however this is not how it works. First, the information we have on this is very limited so i am afraid ill not be able to make a convincing point but ill try.

The fall of the angels and the fall of mankind is like a crossroad and a traffic light, if single vehicle break the rules and crosses the road during orange light, no one will be hurt, but if two vehicles decided to break the rules they will crash into one another and someone will get hurt.

Tradition tells us that when the first rank of angels fell, and the rest of the angels saw it, they humbled themselves and were saved, the devil and his angels however had another plan, if they can get everyone condemned, then they assumed that the good Lord will have no choice but to forgive everyone, so this way they can enter heaven without repentance. This is the mission of the devil, to condemn everyone.

In that sense, the current state of evil is a form of abnormality. The devil was too slothful and decided it will be easier to get everyone condemned than to repent and lets not forget man, who was sloppy and neglectent and because of that was fooled.

Two vehicles go on the crossroad on forbidden light because of neglectance and we have a crash.

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Our parent likewise could have done the same thing even without the need of tempter for like the angels, they have free will.
I hope now you see why you are wrong.

Also before the fall, adam and eve had perfect grace, they had both, the image and the likeness. They didn't need asceticism as we do. In baptism we are restored to the image but the likeness is something we have to work on.

If the Mother of God was in the state of Eve from conception, this means:

1. She couldn't have lived ascetic life because She is already where She needs to be.
2. She couldn't be tempted by the devil, unless he appears to her physically and verbally attempt to mislead her.
3. No asceticism, no merits, its all a gift. Just like Eve who didn't have any merit for what she was made to be.

Also if the doctrine of the immaculate conception of the Mother of God is correct and Theotokos is like an analog for the Church, then the protestants were right, you don't need works because she didn't need works. But we see from history that the Church is suffering and struggling, fighting against sin. In before the fall, our parents did not need to fight against sin, there was no suffering and if it wasn't for the tempter they couldn't have sinned, at best they could become sloppy.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:13:42 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #151 on: December 21, 2017, 03:11:19 PM »
I thought Satan was the tempter.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #152 on: December 21, 2017, 03:25:53 PM »
I thought Satan was the tempter.
Yes.

Did i express something poorly ?

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #153 on: December 22, 2017, 07:01:23 AM »
Theologicaly we have speculated that they do not go to heaven at some points in our history (Limbo of the infants), these days we hope God shows them mercy as infants but we do not know if God sends them to hell where the spiritually dead go.
A god who sends innocent children, whose only fault is his having created them, to where the spiritually dead go is not my god.

Well it is theological speculation after all. Just based on the scriptures and the necessity of baptism and the sacraments for salvation. Yet even the church understood its possible for God to save them. So hence we trust them to the mercy of God.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #154 on: December 22, 2017, 07:25:43 AM »
Finally you make a good argument

Lol the irony in this.

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however this is not how it works. First, the information we have on this is very limited so i am afraid ill not be able to make a convincing point but ill try.
Well let’s see.

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The fall of the angels and the fall of mankind is like a crossroad and a traffic light, if single vehicle break the rules and crosses the road during orange light, no one will be hurt, but if two vehicles decided to break the rules they will crash into one another and someone will get hurt.
This is currently happening as they tempt man on earth daily to sin.

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Tradition tells us that when the first rank of angels fell, and the rest of the angels saw it, they humbled themselves and were saved, the devil and his angels however had another plan, if they can get everyone condemned, then they assumed that the good Lord will have no choice but to forgive everyone, so this way they can enter heaven without repentance. This is the mission of the devil, to condemn everyone.
Which tradition? I have never heard of this. Never mind the warped and flawed theology of this assertion that the creature could force the creator to submit to its will. That is blasphemy and completely misunderstands the justice and mercy of God. The reason the angels will never be redeemed is because of the very fact that they had no tempter. They chose evil in and of themselves. Man can be redeemed through the mercy of God because although he sins, he has a tempter so the blame is not totally on him.

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In that sense, the current state of evil is a form of abnormality. The devil was too slothful and decided it will be easier to get everyone condemned than to repent and lets not forget man, who was sloppy and neglectent and because of that was fooled.
This is theological speculation and a poor attempt at that if I’m being honest. The demons will not repent not because of the sin of sloth, but because of their principle sin which is pride.

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Two vehicles go on the crossroad on forbidden light because of neglectance and we have a crash.

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Our parent likewise could have done the same thing even without the need of tempter for like the angels, they have free will.
I hope now you see why you are wrong.
No I actually don’t not because of inability to see but simply because you have done nothing to counter any of my points and used baseless and unrelated analogies with questionable theological speculations to formulate your reply. Your argument is severely lacking and does nothing to refute any point I made. You still haven’t explained how immaculate beings without a tempter fell because according to your whole argument against, the  Immacukate conception of the Mothe did God, that is an impossibility.

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Also before the fall, adam and eve had perfect grace, they had both, the image and the likeness. They didn't need asceticism as we do. In baptism we are restored to the image but the likeness is something we have to work on.

If the Mother of God was in the state of Eve from conception, this means:

1. She couldn't have lived ascetic life because She is already where She needs to be.
2. She couldn't be tempted by the devil, unless he appears to her physically and verbally attempt to mislead her.
3. No asceticism, no merits, its all a gift. Just like Eve who didn't have any merit for what she was made to be

Simply nope, for your whole argument rests on a flawed premise which you yourself have not even validated. It’s just assumed to be correct despite me showing it to be in error and you haven’t responded to it but just danced around with analogies. In not a single point have you been able to explain how immaculate beings fell without a tempter.

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Also if the doctrine of the immaculate conception of the Mother of God is correct and Theotokos is like an analog for the Church, then the protestants were right, you don't need works because she didn't need works.
I know you think you’re making a point, but you really aren’t. Her works was her life of obedience to God.

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But we see from history that the Church is suffering and struggling, fighting against sin. In before the fall, our parents did not need to fight against sin, there was no suffering and if it wasn't for the tempter they couldn't have sinned, at best they could become sloppy.

Fighting against sin is the fight between man and his fallen nature. The church suffers because her human element is fallen. She is pure and holy because of God and His sacraments.

They couldn’t have sinned? How did the angels sin? Again you just assumed things without proving their truth. You’re honestly just repeating the same unproved point over and over again. You still haven’t provided a single counter point to anything I have said.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 07:37:03 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #155 on: December 23, 2017, 04:11:37 AM »
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Lol the irony in this.
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No I actually don’t not because of inability to see but simply because you have done nothing to counter any of my points and used baseless and unrelated analogies with questionable theological speculations to formulate your reply. Your argument is severely lacking and does nothing to refute any point I made.
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Simply nope, for your whole argument rests on a flawed premise which you yourself have not even validated. It’s just assumed to be correct despite me showing it to be in error
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I know you think you’re making a point, but you really aren’t.
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Again you just assumed things without proving their truth.
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You’re honestly just repeating the same unproved point over and over again.
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You still haven’t provided a single counter point to anything I have said.

Well then, i suppose you are Mr.Irrefutabro
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 04:12:31 AM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #156 on: December 23, 2017, 06:11:36 AM »
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Lol the irony in this.
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No I actually don’t not because of inability to see but simply because you have done nothing to counter any of my points and used baseless and unrelated analogies with questionable theological speculations to formulate your reply. Your argument is severely lacking and does nothing to refute any point I made.
Quote
Simply nope, for your whole argument rests on a flawed premise which you yourself have not even validated. It’s just assumed to be correct despite me showing it to be in error
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I know you think you’re making a point, but you really aren’t.
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Again you just assumed things without proving their truth.
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You’re honestly just repeating the same unproved point over and over again.
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You still haven’t provided a single counter point to anything I have said.

Well then, i suppose you are Mr.Irrefutabro


Let us not descend into childishness. This is not a counter argument.

You have not explained how immaculate beings sinned when, according to you, that is impossible.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:12:44 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #157 on: December 24, 2017, 11:00:08 AM »
Vanyho, your explanation of original sin is on the mark. We Catholics would almost agree with you; for you state "original sin is not something the baby did wrong, its something the baby inherited" and this is correct. Thus St. Thomas that original sin is only the privation of sanctifying grace and does not have the character of fault in any person but only an inherited defect of nature; thus also the Catechism "original sin does not have the character of personal fault in any of Adam's descendants, although it is proper to every person". So, now my question to you, and also to Porter, what is the immediate ontological difference between a Baptized child and an unbaptized child? You cannot say death of the body is already taken away, immortality is only given at the end; so what is instantaneously taken away by Holy Baptism? Precisely, the death of the soul i.e. the privation of original grace is taken away, and infants are sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit, becoming a new creation in Christ, after Baptism. Do we agree thus far? Second question, do you agree John the Baptist was thus sanctified and cleansed from original sin in his mother's womb? If yes, with original sin cleared, and the means of sanctification from it made plain, it remains only to show that the All-Holy Virgin Mary, the Most Holy Theotokos, the Stainless and Sinless Mother of God was cleansed even before him, i.e. at Her conception. Btw, what you distinguish as "grace and grace" in two different senses, we would distinguish as nature and grace. And that's the same distinction St. John Damascene uses.

1. "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape"

Here, we have a clear and explicit testimony that the Conception of the Immaculate Virgin was a product of the grace of the Holy Spirit. in other words, She was sanctified by grace in Her conception.

2. Many other testimonies could be and have been given, but we will take just one from an anti-Latin Greek Patriarch, to show clearly and incontrovertibly how solid the Tradition - within the Greek Church, and expressed in its own terms - is that the All-Holy Panagia, the Spotless and Stainless Ark, was sanctified in Her conception.  “was wholly sanctified from the very first moment of her conception (ole egiasmene en aute te sullepsei) when her body was formed and when her soul was united to her body ... As for the Panaghia, who is there who does not know that she is pure and immaculate, that she was a spotless instrument, sanctified in her conception and her birth, as befits one who is to contain the One whom nothing can contain?” (Ref: Lukaris, hom. in Dormit and hom. in Nativ., Cod. 39 of the Metochion, fol. 93)

3. A third testimony is from St. Andrew of Crete, perhaps you can argue this shows only an Immaculate Birth and not an Immaculate Conception, but at the least it is implied, and so at least, all who revere the Tradition of the Fathers should believe in the Immaculate Birth of Mary. "Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"

This is so clear, Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, greater and more glorious than the first; human nature in Her Person recovers all its ancient privileges; She is the perfect model of theosis; we could say in Her the Church is already the All-Holy One, etc. Nature is reformed, all creation is made anew; the transformation is truly divine and the second creation begins with Her.

Merry Christmas, all.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 11:10:37 AM by Xavier »
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #158 on: December 24, 2017, 11:43:12 AM »
Merry Christmas to everybody. May our Good Lord be with all of us during this Christmas and shower many blessings over us and our families and continue to bless us now and into the new year. :)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 11:47:07 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #159 on: January 05, 2018, 05:45:02 PM »
Vanyho, your explanation of original sin is on the mark. We Catholics would almost agree with you; for you state "original sin is not something the baby did wrong, its something the baby inherited" and this is correct. Thus St. Thomas that original sin is only the privation of sanctifying grace and does not have the character of fault in any person but only an inherited defect of nature; thus also the Catechism "original sin does not have the character of personal fault in any of Adam's descendants, although it is proper to every person". So, now my question to you, and also to Porter, what is the immediate ontological difference between a Baptized child and an unbaptized child? You cannot say death of the body is already taken away, immortality is only given at the end; so what is instantaneously taken away by Holy Baptism? Precisely, the death of the soul i.e. the privation of original grace is taken away, and infants are sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit, becoming a new creation in Christ, after Baptism. Do we agree thus far? Second question, do you agree John the Baptist was thus sanctified and cleansed from original sin in his mother's womb? If yes, with original sin cleared, and the means of sanctification from it made plain, it remains only to show that the All-Holy Virgin Mary, the Most Holy Theotokos, the Stainless and Sinless Mother of God was cleansed even before him, i.e. at Her conception. Btw, what you distinguish as "grace and grace" in two different senses, we would distinguish as nature and grace. And that's the same distinction St. John Damascene uses.

1. "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape"

Here, we have a clear and explicit testimony that the Conception of the Immaculate Virgin was a product of the grace of the Holy Spirit. in other words, She was sanctified by grace in Her conception.

2. Many other testimonies could be and have been given, but we will take just one from an anti-Latin Greek Patriarch, to show clearly and incontrovertibly how solid the Tradition - within the Greek Church, and expressed in its own terms - is that the All-Holy Panagia, the Spotless and Stainless Ark, was sanctified in Her conception.  “was wholly sanctified from the very first moment of her conception (ole egiasmene en aute te sullepsei) when her body was formed and when her soul was united to her body ... As for the Panaghia, who is there who does not know that she is pure and immaculate, that she was a spotless instrument, sanctified in her conception and her birth, as befits one who is to contain the One whom nothing can contain?” (Ref: Lukaris, hom. in Dormit and hom. in Nativ., Cod. 39 of the Metochion, fol. 93)

3. A third testimony is from St. Andrew of Crete, perhaps you can argue this shows only an Immaculate Birth and not an Immaculate Conception, but at the least it is implied, and so at least, all who revere the Tradition of the Fathers should believe in the Immaculate Birth of Mary. "Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"

This is so clear, Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, greater and more glorious than the first; human nature in Her Person recovers all its ancient privileges; She is the perfect model of theosis; we could say in Her the Church is already the All-Holy One, etc. Nature is reformed, all creation is made anew; the transformation is truly divine and the second creation begins with Her.

Merry Christmas, all.

1. Babies are not separated from God.
2. The New Creation begins with Christ.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2018, 05:47:34 AM »
1. Babies are not separated from God.

"For this also the Church had a Tradition from the apostles, to give baptism even to infants. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were given knew that there is in all persons the natural stains of sin which must be washed away"

2. The New Creation begins with Christ.

"humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands ... this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2018, 02:35:30 PM »
1. Babies are not separated from God.

"For this also the Church had a Tradition from the apostles, to give baptism even to infants. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were given knew that there is in all persons the natural stains of sin which must be washed away"

2. The New Creation begins with Christ.

"humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands ... this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"

1. Babies are not separated from God.
2. The New Creation begins with Christ.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #162 on: January 15, 2018, 03:41:22 PM »
Its has been stated " As there was no physical pleasure in conception there was no physical pain in birthing Christ".