Author Topic: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.  (Read 5518 times)

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Offline Xavier

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Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« on: September 30, 2017, 01:29:40 AM »
It is written in the Prophets, "Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?" (Isa 66:7). This text, which plainly foretells an Immaculate Virgin free of guilt giving birth without pain, as so many of the holy Fathers (including St. Damascene and St. Augustine) explicitly point out, also necessitates something more - in light of God imposing in Genesis the pangs of childbirth as a consequence of Eves transgression, it follows that the Immaculate Virgin Mary was in no way subject to the curse of Eve by nature. Otherwise She would have given birth in pain. Her lack of it is a sign from God of Her being created sinless, just like Eve was before the fall. In other words, Mary is really and truly in every sense the New Eve who was created immaculate and from whom, of the Spirit, a new regenerated humanity would be born of whom She would be the mother, as Eve was meant to be. Does the Orthodox Church believe Mary had no birth pangs?

And if so, doesnt it have obvious implications for the Immaculate conception, in light of the Genesis curse of sin?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 01:30:50 AM by Xavier »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 11:09:45 PM »
Yes, she had no pains. No, it has nothing to do with the IC, except that the New Eve was bearing the New Adam, the only one conceived without sin.

So, what words are you trying to shove into the mouths of St. John and St. Augustine?
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Offline CarolS

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2017, 10:11:55 AM »
Birth without pain is a blessing from God, but not proof of sinlessness. A woman at my church gave birth without any pain (and no medical intervention or drugs) It is rare, but possible. A different woman, a college friend of mine, thought she needed to use the toilet, sat down and her baby just slipped out. No birth labor at all.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 10:20:01 AM by CarolS »
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2017, 10:37:41 AM »
Birth without pain is a blessing from God, but not proof of sinlessness. A woman at my church gave birth without any pain (and no medical intervention or drugs) It is rare, but possible. A different woman, a college friend of mine, thought she needed to use the toilet, sat down and her baby just slipped out. No birth labor at all.

+1
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2017, 11:52:57 AM »
Birth without pain is a blessing from God, but not proof of sinlessness. A woman at my church gave birth without any pain (and no medical intervention or drugs) It is rare, but possible. A different woman, a college friend of mine, thought she needed to use the toilet, sat down and her baby just slipped out. No birth labor at all.

+1
The Mother of God is sinless, the doctrine of the immaculate conception is another story.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:55:43 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2017, 01:59:23 PM »

She is sinless by choice...HER choice....and we love her for it.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 04:31:46 PM »
Birth without pain is a blessing from God, but not proof of sinlessness. A woman at my church gave birth without any pain (and no medical intervention or drugs) It is rare, but possible. A different woman, a college friend of mine, thought she needed to use the toilet, sat down and her baby just slipped out. No birth labor at all.
Btw that is a horrible post, someone should delete/edit this comment and all replies containing the quote of it
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 04:32:57 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 04:34:26 PM »
Birth without pain is a blessing from God, but not proof of sinlessness. A woman at my church gave birth without any pain (and no medical intervention or drugs) It is rare, but possible. A different woman, a college friend of mine, thought she needed to use the toilet, sat down and her baby just slipped out. No birth labor at all.
Btw that is a horrible post, someone should delete/edit this comment and all replies containing the quote of it

That's how I feel about most of your posts, but we still allow you a voice.  Back off.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 05:13:07 PM »
Birth without pain is a blessing from God, but not proof of sinlessness. A woman at my church gave birth without any pain (and no medical intervention or drugs) It is rare, but possible. A different woman, a college friend of mine, thought she needed to use the toilet, sat down and her baby just slipped out. No birth labor at all.

+2
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 05:15:19 PM »
I think I could deliver a baby standing on my head and not have much pain. I am very-very-very far from sinless.

Offline William T

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 05:22:15 PM »
I think I could deliver a baby standing on my head and not have much pain. I am very-very-very far from sinless.

lol, that made me think of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbybWIMJHwU

Anyway, Christ Himself gave an analogy of the pains of birth and the joy that came afterwards, so there is that.  Due to Eve's curse, I guess a lack of birth pains could be a sign of Christ's birth and Holiness, but that's about it.  It is certainly no proof.

Were I to speculate how Antichrist would be born it would be in a very violent birth or a kind of ultra clean sedated "mock" painless dehumanized birth, not sure what that means...just throwing it out there.

EDIT
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:29:56 PM by William T »

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 05:32:42 PM »
I heard that it referred to Israel, haven't looked at it since I started going to Orthodox church.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 05:42:52 PM »
I think I could deliver a baby standing on my head and not have much pain. I am very-very-very far from sinless.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 05:45:49 PM »
The prophecy in Isaiah does suggest that the Theotokos did suffer from the usual pain after having given birth, does it not?  I would read that as a reaffirmation of both her natural humanity and that of Jesus Christ, who is perfectly human and perfectly divine, simultaneously, in His incarnate nature (or, if you prefer, in Chalcedonian terminology, according to the hypostatic union of the human and divine natures in one incarnate hypostasis)

*This I would note with some amusement is the first case I have encountered in discussing Christology where the Chalcedonian terminology, while still, I believe, functionally synonymous with the Oriental Orthodox terminology, was noticeably longer and more complex; usually the two are equivalent, and on one occasion I found Chalcedonian terminology easier to employ.
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 05:48:33 PM »
It is written in the Prophets, "Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?" (Isa 66:7). This text, which plainly foretells an Immaculate Virgin free of guilt giving birth without pain, as so many of the holy Fathers (including St. Damascene and St. Augustine) explicitly point out, also necessitates something more - in light of God imposing in Genesis the pangs of childbirth as a consequence of Eves transgression, it follows that the Immaculate Virgin Mary was in no way subject to the curse of Eve by nature. Otherwise She would have given birth in pain. Her lack of it is a sign from God of Her being created sinless, just like Eve was before the fall. In other words, Mary is really and truly in every sense the New Eve who was created immaculate and from whom, of the Spirit, a new regenerated humanity would be born of whom She would be the mother, as Eve was meant to be. Does the Orthodox Church believe Mary had no birth pangs?

And if so, doesnt it have obvious implications for the Immaculate conception, in light of the Genesis curse of sin?

This story is about Zion. But all saints are sinless.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 06:46:21 PM »
But all saints are sinless.

Yeah, let's not start down that rabbit hole again, thanks.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 08:41:57 PM »
Loving the responses from the women here. :D
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 10:12:42 PM »
Painless? Sure. Hymen intact? Why not. IC and/or Jesus teleported out of the womb? Nope
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 10:13:06 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2017, 12:26:05 AM »
But she is most honest on the heaven.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 09:59:53 PM »
... it follows that the Immaculate Virgin Mary was in no way subject to the curse of Eve by nature.
That's your mistaken assumption, that human nature is cursed.  If it is, indeed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception may be necessary, lest Our Lord have inherited it too, which would be absurd.  But, if it isn't, then this dogma is unnecessary and the greatness of the voluntary sinlessness of the Mother of God may be preserved and proclaimed.

So, by veering down an erroneous path of theological speculation without reference to the witness of the plurality of Fathers, the Roman Church put itself in a corner and concocted a dogma to extricate itself, as usual.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 10:02:13 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2017, 02:58:34 PM »
... it follows that the Immaculate Virgin Mary was in no way subject to the curse of Eve by nature.
That's your mistaken assumption, that human nature is cursed.  If it is, indeed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception may be necessary, lest Our Lord have inherited it too, which would be absurd.  But, if it isn't, then this dogma is unnecessary and the greatness of the voluntary sinlessness of the Mother of God may be preserved and proclaimed.

So, by veering down an erroneous path of theological speculation without reference to the witness of the plurality of Fathers, the Roman Church put itself in a corner and concocted a dogma to extricate itself, as usual.

Sorry but to me this makes no sense. First, it assumes the mechanism of the Curse is biological and genetic: this is neither Scriptural nor sensible. Second, it is absurd to say if the Theotokos were uncursed, neither would Christ be -- since if this were the mechanism that lifts the Curse, St. Ann would need to have been immaculately conceived to uncurse the Theotokos -- ad infinitum. Third, the same would make St. Ann the Curse-breaker of women, the New Eve. Fourth, would be lost the cleansing, healing, saving power of the infant Lord in the womb. Fifth is the implication that to bear the Curse is guilty, when of Christ himself it was written, "Cursed is he for our sake."
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2017, 04:46:30 PM »
The capability to give birth without pain is biologically possible for some women. The ability to give birth easily is there for some women. I generally undergo pretty minimal pain compared to the average woman, and I have an ability to give birth easily compared to the majority of women. My ability to do the second is due to the fact that I have a connective tissue issue that makes nearly all my joints hypermobile. The "sunny side up" delivery is one of the hardest deliveries a woman can have because spine to spine doesn't work very well. Most women (no matter how many babies they've had) either take extra time to deliver, or need assistance to deliver a baby in that particular position (some women just can't deliver an OP baby at all). Our last baby was what they call a "persistent occipit posterior" delivery (this means my labor and my delivery were with her in that position), and I was able to do it surprisingly easily and quickly. The trade off being that at the end of pregnancy, and months after delivery I literally have to wear a belt around my hips to keep them from subluxating with each step I take. For me delivery is relatively easy, walking is hard.

The Theotokos chose not to sin, and I think that is an important distinction. If she didn't struggle the way the rest of us struggle, it would have been easy for her to make that choice. Knowing that she struggled as we did, and yet chose not to fall into sin is an inspiration.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2017, 05:59:53 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 06:07:20 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2017, 06:07:31 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about it.

We don't assign the glory of God to anyone.  God does. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2017, 06:54:48 PM »
We don't assign the glory of God to anyone.  God does.
Well that settles it.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2017, 07:25:52 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.

If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2017, 07:41:25 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.

If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2017, 07:59:45 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.

If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?

Jesus aside- Job, Abraham, Zacharias, and Elizabeth are all described as keeping the Law perfectly. How do you reconcile that with such an all-encompassing reading of Romans?
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2017, 08:05:34 PM »
Painless? Sure. Hymen intact? Why not. IC and/or Jesus teleported out of the womb? Nope

I don't get the obsession over hymens promulgated by churchmen.   

YES!  She's a wonderful woman, even though we generally despise women, this one is great!  Now, let's peer between her legs, shall we?

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2017, 08:05:42 PM »
We don't assign the glory of God to anyone.  God does.
Well that settles it.

Yeah, I usually do.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2017, 08:12:48 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.

If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?

Jesus aside- Job, Abraham, Zacharias, and Elizabeth are all described as keeping the Law perfectly. How do you reconcile that with such an all-encompassing reading of Romans?
Aha! Because in Jesus we have the forgiveness of sins. Have you heard about that?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2017, 08:19:05 PM »
Painless? Sure. Hymen intact? Why not. IC and/or Jesus teleported out of the womb? Nope

I don't get the obsession over hymens promulgated by churchmen.   

YES!  She's a wonderful woman, even though we generally despise women, this one is great!  Now, let's peer between her legs, shall we?


I definitely share the sentiment.

Nowadays I think I can kind of accept it as a condescension by God to the beliefs of the time (the ancients knew of no other way to determine virginity, even though modern medicine knows that the hymen doesn't always work like that). Old thread in which Mor schooled me on it: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=63097.0


Now, whether it's actually important that Christ be born of a virgin is a different question/debate, but the Apostles sure thought it was so I guess I'm willing to go along.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2017, 08:23:31 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.

If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?

Jesus aside- Job, Abraham, Zacharias, and Elizabeth are all described as keeping the Law perfectly. How do you reconcile that with such an all-encompassing reading of Romans?
Aha! Because in Jesus we have the forgiveness of sins. Have you heard about that?

Sure. "Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness." Though Paul seems to think he had some measure of perfection even before his conversion (see Philippians 3).

Putting that aside though, even if we use a grace through faith explanation for Abraham, why not use it also for the Theotokos?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:25:35 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2017, 08:27:03 PM »

Nowadays I think I can kind of accept it as a condescension by God to the beliefs of the time (the ancients knew of no other way to determine virginity, even though modern medicine knows that the hymen doesn't always work like that). Old thread in which Mor schooled me on it: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=63097.0


Mor Ephrem schooled you? haha!
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2017, 08:44:48 PM »
Painless? Sure. Hymen intact? Why not. IC and/or Jesus teleported out of the womb? Nope

I don't get the obsession over hymens promulgated by churchmen.   

YES!  She's a wonderful woman, even though we generally despise women, this one is great!  Now, let's peer between her legs, shall we?

It goes both ways, though, doesn't it? Some churchmen write some flowery language and people just can't seem to get past it.

"That's not how things work! It's absurd!" they say, as though Christianity is not absurd to the world. "How could anyone profess something so unscientific?"
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:45:51 PM by Hawkeye »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2017, 08:45:42 PM »
Putting that aside though, even if we use a grace through faith explanation for Abraham, why not use it also for the Theotokos?
I mean, you do realize that Noah wasn't ever an Israelite, right?
I'm just not sure how to take your question. Why not? I don't know.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:48:36 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2017, 08:59:01 PM »

Nowadays I think I can kind of accept it as a condescension by God to the beliefs of the time (the ancients knew of no other way to determine virginity, even though modern medicine knows that the hymen doesn't always work like that). Old thread in which Mor schooled me on it: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=63097.0


Mor Ephrem schooled you? haha!

Rather depends on what he's talking about, I find. He's a smart dude, I just don't agree with him on everything.

Putting that aside though, even if we use a grace through faith explanation for Abraham, why not use it also for the Theotokos?
I mean, you do realize that Noah wasn't ever an Israelite, right?
Nor were Enoch and Adam, what's your point?

I'm just not sure how to take your question. Why not? I don't know.

Well, you said that the Theotokos can't be sinless because of Romans 3:23. I'm not sure I see a real conflict.

To me it reads as either a. A general statement with room for exceptions like the Biblical worthies we both mentioned

and/or b. An affirmation that her sinlessness was derived from the grace of God due to her great faith.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2017, 09:03:22 PM »
Well, you said that the Theotokos can't be sinless because of Romans 3:23. I'm not sure I see a real conflict.

To me it reads as either a. A general statement with room for exceptions like the Biblical worthies we both mentioned

and/or b. An affirmation that her sinlessness was derived from the grace of God due to her great faith.

So you read Romans 3:23 as an affirmation that Mary was without sin? I'm not sure that we have much more to discuss, then.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2017, 09:16:56 PM »
Well, you said that the Theotokos can't be sinless because of Romans 3:23. I'm not sure I see a real conflict.

To me it reads as either a. A general statement with room for exceptions like the Biblical worthies we both mentioned

and/or b. An affirmation that her sinlessness was derived from the grace of God due to her great faith.

So you read Romans 3:23 as an affirmation that Mary was without sin? I'm not sure that we have much more to discuss, then.

I read it as allowing that, at the very least, she would be a sinner if it weren't for the grace of God on her life from the moment of her birth (ditto for anybody else in the Bible that was sinless to any extent). I don't see it as necessarily being an exact descriptor of everybody in the universe at all times and places.

Remember, the early chapters of Romans serve a very specific purpose as an extended argument against the haughty Jewish Christians in the church at Rome who thought that they could achieve some kind of perfection without the grace of God over and against those filthy Gentiles.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 09:18:04 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2017, 09:20:05 PM »
Well, you said that the Theotokos can't be sinless because of Romans 3:23. I'm not sure I see a real conflict.

To me it reads as either a. A general statement with room for exceptions like the Biblical worthies we both mentioned

and/or b. An affirmation that her sinlessness was derived from the grace of God due to her great faith.

So you read Romans 3:23 as an affirmation that Mary was without sin? I'm not sure that we have much more to discuss, then.

I read it as allowing that, at the very least, she would be a sinner if it weren't for the grace of God on her life from the moment of her birth (ditto for anybody else in the Bible that was sinless to any extent). I don't see it as necessarily being an exact descriptor of everybody in the universe at all times and places.

Remember, the early chapters of Romans serve a very specific purpose as an extended argument against the haughty Jewish Christians in the church at Rome who thought that they could achieve some kind of perfection without the grace of God over and against those filthy Gentiles.

Well, i find all of that unnecessary. Besides, I thought I already explained that the issue is that you're assigning ("ascribing" perhaps) to Mary the glory of God. It's not about statistics, hombre. We already say each Sunday: "Only thou art holy, to the glory of the Father", or some such verbage. I'm not actually Orthodox yet, so I can't be held responsible.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 09:26:25 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2017, 09:26:17 PM »
Well, you said that the Theotokos can't be sinless because of Romans 3:23. I'm not sure I see a real conflict.

To me it reads as either a. A general statement with room for exceptions like the Biblical worthies we both mentioned

and/or b. An affirmation that her sinlessness was derived from the grace of God due to her great faith.

So you read Romans 3:23 as an affirmation that Mary was without sin? I'm not sure that we have much more to discuss, then.

I read it as allowing that, at the very least, she would be a sinner if it weren't for the grace of God on her life from the moment of her birth (ditto for anybody else in the Bible that was sinless to any extent). I don't see it as necessarily being an exact descriptor of everybody in the universe at all times and places.

Remember, the early chapters of Romans serve a very specific purpose as an extended argument against the haughty Jewish Christians in the church at Rome who thought that they could achieve some kind of perfection without the grace of God over and against those filthy Gentiles.

Well, i find all of that unnecessary.

Why? The Early Post-Apostolic Church (at least beginning with St. Irenaeus, supposedly two steps removed from the Apostle John who took her into his home following the Crucifixion) seems to have considered her sinless. There must have been a good reason.

And what was your point about those described as perfect in the Bible? That at the very least needs to be harmonized with Romans 3:23, and I think I just did a passable job of it (open to correction).




Just saw your ETA: I'm not ascribing the glory of God to her. Nobody thinks her (or Noah's or Job's or whoever's) sinlessness was some feat of strength of her own outside of God's grace. Remember who Paul is responding to when he wrote that.



In response to your second ETA: So, now you're trying to set Orthodox theology against itself? That seems like a nonstarter. The point of the hymn is that only Jesus is Holy in Himself, it's got nothing to do with Him making anybody else holy by association. I think it was St. Athanasius (?) who said that we are to become by grace what Christ is by nature.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 09:33:20 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2017, 09:38:16 PM »

In response to your second ETA: So, now you're trying to set Orthodox theology against itself? That seems like a nonstarter. The point of the hymn is that only Jesus is Holy in Himself, it's got nothing to do with Him making anybody else holy by association. I think it was St. Athanasius (?) who said that we are to become by grace what Christ is by nature.

I'm glad that you caught my edits.
Anyway, I've heard varying accounts regarding the Theotokos, so I'm not sure which Orthodox theology (theologumen, maybe?) you're referring.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2017, 09:47:40 PM »

In response to your second ETA: So, now you're trying to set Orthodox theology against itself? That seems like a nonstarter. The point of the hymn is that only Jesus is Holy in Himself, it's got nothing to do with Him making anybody else holy by association. I think it was St. Athanasius (?) who said that we are to become by grace what Christ is by nature.

I'm glad that you caught my edits.
Anyway, I've heard varying accounts regarding the Theotokos, so I'm not sure which Orthodox theology (theologumen, maybe?) you're referring.

From what I can tell, St. John Chrysostom is the only Father who seriously questions her sinlessness. Other Fathers like St. Gregory Palamas are talking about her being confused, saddened, etc. especially at the foot of the Cross.

http://www.sttikhonsmonastery.org/sinlessness.html

https://oca.org/questions/saints/sinlessness-of-mary

http://www.monachos.net/conversation/topic/5916-question-about-the-sinlessness-of-the-theotokos/
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2017, 09:50:47 PM »
From what I can tell, St. John Chrysostom is the only Father who seriously questions her sinlessness. Other Fathers like St. Gregory Palamas are talking about her being confused, saddened, etc. especially at the foot of the Cross.
The point is that it isn't dogma. Dogma goes the other way, imho.

Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 10:01:02 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2017, 10:03:08 PM »
It's not a stretch, really.
It was as easy, if not easier, than suggesting that Mary was herself without sin, or any of the things which you've suggested. IMO.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2017, 10:47:09 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 10:53:10 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2017, 10:55:54 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Are you kidding?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2017, 10:58:28 PM »
We already say each Sunday: "Only thou art holy, to the glory of the Father", or some such verbage. I'm not actually Orthodox yet, so I can't be held responsible.

If you're not Orthodox, then stop talking about what "we" say on Sunday.  You don't. 

And if you don't want to be held responsible, be quiet about things you have no idea about.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2017, 11:00:13 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2017, 11:00:42 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

Are you kidding?
Not at all, after what I've heard about the Pharisees and Saducees.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2017, 11:14:53 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Not really. I don't recall that verbage referring to Abraham or Noah. Or Elizabeth or her husband (I forget his name.)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 11:19:04 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2017, 11:21:13 PM »
Also, I really don't understand your difficulty with Elizabeth, or her husband, or Nathan, or whoever being "blameless" before God, because I already explained that if your sins have been forgiven, you are blameless. Perhaps their sins were ascribed to the evil one? It's not a stretch, really.

The text doesn't say they were righteous because their sins were forgiven.  It says they were righteous because they kept the Law.
Not really. I don't recall that verbage referring to Abraham or Noah. Or Elizabeth or her husband (I forget his name.)

Then you need to read the Bible You know what, it's fine. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2017, 11:22:49 PM »
If you're not Orthodox, then stop talking about what "we" say on Sunday.  You don't. 
That's what she said.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2017, 02:49:48 AM »
Yeah, I don't exclude Elizabeth, her husband (who's name I seem to have blocked, as his tongue was blocked after the archangel Gabriel prophecied to him), or any of the other saints. Perhaps out of a sense of piety you didn't mention any of the archangels, but I don't know what that's like, being an angel of God. Or if I do, not enough to write a book about it.

You mentioned something about righteousness, I only want to say that I may have self-identified as and Old Protestant at some time in the past, however in retrospect I've come to realize that it was effectually only an efficient means of differentiating myself from the perceived "establishment" Protestant church. For this I offer no apologies.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2017, 02:24:34 PM »
If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?
If "all" literally and perspicuously meant all, the Son of Man, also one among all, would also have sinned and fallen short.  If "all" was not meant literally by St. Paul, but hyperbolically, then not all have sinned, which seems to be the case, since Jesus Christ has never sinned.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2017, 08:52:10 PM »
I forgot some real information only by reading one true story.q
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2017, 03:25:59 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.
It is typical of protestants is to cherry-pick a sentence from our Bible and then proceed to create some lalalogy.

What St Paul was trying to say must be understood in context, and the context is that he is sending a letter to the romans, who seem to be overly zealous and pharasaic. St Paul was afraid that they were falling into spiritual delusion and pride, because of this "over-righteousness". there was a need to humble them.

I can assure you if St Paul was sending a latter to the Theotokos, it would've been of entirely different content. I can say to you with certainly such a letter would be full of praises and reverences, and unlike the letter to the romans where he is trying to humble them, in a letter to the Mother of God, he will be humbling himself before Her.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:29:47 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2017, 03:40:26 PM »
Yet the Apostle Paul quoth: "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
This is where it gets sticky, imho. We cannot assign the glory of God to Mary, however honest she may have been. I guess that's how i see it, what I don't like about saying she was without sin.
It is typical of protestants is to cherry-pick a sentence from our Bible and then proceed to create some lalalogy.

What St Paul was trying to say must be understood in context, and the context is that he is sending a letter to the romans, who seem to be overly zealous and pharasaic. St Paul was afraid that they were falling into spiritual delusion and pride, because of this "over-righteousness". there was a need to humble them.

I can assure you if St Paul was sending a latter to the Theotokos, it would've been of entirely different content. I can say to you with certainly such a letter would be full of praises and reverences, and unlike the letter to the romans where he is trying to humble them, in a letter to the Mother of God, he will be humbling himself before Her.
+1 . Indeed, it seems weird, to say the least, to insinuate that St. Paul would trump the Theotokos: "Hey, we are all sinners, after all." Blatant nonsense.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2017, 03:33:37 PM »
Would that Hank Hannegraaf were here, to explain to us all how he was able to overcome this particular hurdle, coming from what I understand to be a very Protestant background. Some reason, I like that guy.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2017, 07:10:19 PM »
If you're intent on interpreting "all" and "erred" in such a technical and absolute way, then you also have to explain Jesus and Job. As you've been told before.
Why would I need to explain Jesus? What are you suggesting?
If "all" literally and perspicuously meant all, the Son of Man, also one among all, would also have sinned and fallen short.  If "all" was not meant literally by St. Paul, but hyperbolically, then not all have sinned, which seems to be the case, since Jesus Christ has never sinned.
Jesus is obviously excluded though, isn't that obvious enough?
And in keeping with the spirit that it doesn't need to be taken absolutely literally, I don't suppose there won't be any objection that all of the holy angels are without sin, right? Because frankly I would find that argument disingenuous. Possibly shallow. Because sure, there is a tradition that the devil sinned before the ages, maybe, but there is a more certain testimony found within the Genesis text.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 07:37:19 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2017, 09:59:55 PM »
Do people really think that Mary was perfect all of her life, just like Jesus? No mischief, no misbehaving?
I always sort of imagine her as a sort of hardcore skater-girl, just skirting legality

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Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 04:14:31 AM »
1. http://www.sttikhonsmonastery.org/sinlessness.html is a truly excellent article, thanks for posting. Can Catholics and Orthodox agree, then, that Mary, at every moment in Her life, cooperated perfectly with grace and never sinned? Mcarmichael, Mary is called kecharitomene in Scripture, which means one in whom grace is complete. Where grace is full, there is no sin. Jesus is also called full of grace, by St. John, to indicate He is the source and author of grace; and Mary is saluted as full of grace by the Angel, showing She has been made sinless by Him; Mary is the vessel and tabernacle, like the Ark made of stainless gold, that is overshadowed by His Spirit and Glory, as the Fathers tirelessly point out.
"Thou and thy mother are the only ones who are totally beautiful in every respect; for in thee, O Lord, there is no spot, and in thy Mother no stain." - St. Ephraim of Syria. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/05/church-fathers-mary-is-sinless.html

2. Now, to those who said Mary chose to be sinless, we Catholics agree, we would go further and say, with St. John Damascene, that in love for God and for us Her children, our Mother freely chose, in a spirit of martyrdom, to suffer birth pangs for us - pains more than any creature has experienced, but voluntarily and without needing to - not in Bethlehem but at the foot of the Cross, as Jeremiah and Simeon prophesied. She suffered this when She gave birth to us sinners and became the Mother of St. John and of the Church on Calvary, but not in childbirth. Mary is all that Eve was meant to be. That is why She gave birth naturally without pangs.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:19:43 AM by Xavier »

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 04:20:18 AM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned. The Fathers call original sin the "stain of sin" and they call Her the Stainless one. The implication is evident. St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

4. As St. John Damascene put it, "she who saw her Son die on the cross ... received in her heart the sword of pain which she had not felt in childbirth" (St. John Damascene, Second Homily on the Dormition of the Mother of God).http://googleweblight.com/i?u=http://taylormarshall.com/2010/12/marys-painless-delivery-of-christ.html&grqid=VrB_hQ5V&hl=en-IN Elsewhere St. John exegetes Isa 66 in reference to the Virgin Daughter of Zion (I recommend Pope Benedicts book "Daughter of Zion" where he shows the Prophets speak of a Daughter of Zion who, as a Virgin, becomes the Mother of many peoples - and it is evident this is Mary, who also typifies and represents Israel/the Church in the perfection God wishes) who is the Immaculate Mother, made All-Holy by the grace of the All-Holy Spirit.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 07:21:14 PM »
I always feel bad, debating this. Not because I feel like I am somehow "slighting" the Virgin Mother (if it's okay?), but because it's seemingly so important to some people.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:22:13 PM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2017, 09:45:42 PM »
St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
No, it's not.  The Catholic teaching on the original sin is that we are all implicated in Adam's sin (CCC 402-6).  Here, St. Proclus referred to the absence of any sinful stain of Her own, not Adam's own.

Just like most Catholics see papal supremacy in any affirmation of the Primacy of St. Peter, they also see the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in every affirmation of the sinlessness of the Mother of God.  It's akin to a bias for confirmation bias.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2017, 12:36:09 AM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

Now if she didn't experience death but was assumed into the Heaven straightaway, at lest that is a consistent story. Elijah, Enoch, and maybe Moses were "assumed" into Heaven. Also Fr. Abraham. I forget if the holy prophet Elisha was assumed into Heaven. That has got to be 100% the best way to go.

So if she didn't ever misbehave, even in her youth, as some people suggest, I'm not sure which way that I would go. Why shouldn't she be assumed? Having begotten Christ, after all. Does that make sense? If a couple of prophets were assumed, there is  precedent already. It's tricky, don't sweat it. I'm not sweating, and I'm a heavy-sweater. For Christmas I want talcum powder. TY
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 01:08:16 AM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2017, 09:19:47 PM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

You imagine a lot of dumb things.

Quote
Now if she didn't experience death but was assumed into the Heaven straightaway, at lest that is a consistent story. Elijah, Enoch, and maybe Moses were "assumed" into Heaven. Also Fr. Abraham. I forget if the holy prophet Elisha was assumed into Heaven. That has got to be 100% the best way to go.

Moses died and was buried.  So, too, Abraham and Elisha. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Quinault

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2017, 09:30:08 PM »
I think my perspective on sinless-ness is heavily influenced by the fact that I am a mother. Kids certainly can, and do misbehave; they do things that are naughty, and they do get into trouble. Yet, the vast majority of the time kids are merely being kids and not being "sinful." When my then 2 year old son put dog poop in my purse it was a very naughty thing to do. I wasn't happy about it, and it really was quite gross. Yet, I didn't punish him for this misbehavior because at that age he didn't have the capacity to know that what he did was wrong. I told him it was wrong, I told him why it was wrong, and he hasn't done it again. He was "corrected" but he wasn't punished.

Generally speaking kids have a hard time understanding morals, ethics, truth, and such on abstract issues until they are closer to 7-8 years old. So while they will be disciplined for bad behavior, it should be done with a heart of correction rather than discipline. You can't and shouldn't punish a kid merely for being a kid, you have to teach them what is and is not OK. My son thought he was doing a good thing by picking up the poop off the deck (our dog loves pooping on decks for some reason unknown to me), he didn't understand that you put it in the trash rather than mom's purse.

So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:32:10 PM by Quinault »

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2017, 08:58:22 PM »
I imagine the blessed Virgin gasping for breath as she reads this. Saying that she did not experience birth pangs, dogmatically. It's a story, not canon even.

You imagine a lot of dumb things.

This is true.
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Offline William T

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2017, 01:44:05 AM »
So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.

He sneaked out on His mom once at age 12

Offline youssef

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2017, 05:21:09 PM »
It seem that Mar Ephrem the Syriac has made this relation.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2017, 06:26:20 PM »
St. Gabriel, St. Michael, and the other angels of God are all sinless, aren't they? If Our Lady is 'more honorable than the cherubim and beyond comparison more glorious than the seraphim,' is it that farfetched to believe that she was sinless too?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 06:26:42 PM by Arzelle »

Offline recent convert

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2017, 09:26:01 PM »
In the Protoevangelion of St. James it is said St. Mary was given grace at age 3:

Re The Theotokos at age 3

From the Protoevangelion of St. James 7:3-5:
"And when the child was 3 years old, Joachim said, Let us invight the daughters of the Hebrews, who are undefined, and let them each take a lamp, and let them be lighted, that the child may not turn back again, and her mind be set against the temple of the Lord. And they did this till they ascended into the temple of the Lord. And the high-priest received her, and blessed her, and said, Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name to all generations, and to the very end of time by these will the Lord shew his redemption of the children of Israel . And he placed her upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord gave unto her grace, and she danced with her feet and all the house of Israel loved her.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm   
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 09:26:53 PM by recent convert »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2017, 06:50:15 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2017, 08:03:58 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
I dunno. I just have a really difficult time with it.

Let's compare it to Israel. Israel has a king, and there is a prophecy that it will always have a king, until the Messiah comes. Okay? So, in the meanwhile, the Israelites are off doing all sorts of bad stuff, like drinking too much wine, sodomizing visitors, stuff like that. You're with me so far?
Why should the church be any different? That's how it seems to me. That's what I get, reading Paul, and Peter, and Jude, and other Apostles.
Except with the church it's bishops, bread, and baptism, I think. Something like that.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:40:53 PM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2017, 10:36:33 PM »
In the Protoevangelion of St. James it is said St. Mary was given grace at age 3:

Re The Theotokos at age 3

From the Protoevangelion of St. James 7:3-5:
"And when the child was 3 years old, Joachim said, Let us invight the daughters of the Hebrews, who are undefined, and let them each take a lamp, and let them be lighted, that the child may not turn back again, and her mind be set against the temple of the Lord. And they did this till they ascended into the temple of the Lord. And the high-priest received her, and blessed her, and said, Mary, the Lord God hath magnified thy name to all generations, and to the very end of time by these will the Lord shew his redemption of the children of Israel . And he placed her upon the third step of the altar, and the Lord gave unto her grace, and she danced with her feet and all the house of Israel loved her.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm   

I think that's saying that God just gave her the grace to dance. It's not saying she didn't have grace from birth or anything like that.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 10:40:40 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2017, 10:37:51 PM »
I think my perspective on sinless-ness is heavily influenced by the fact that I am a mother. Kids certainly can, and do misbehave; they do things that are naughty, and they do get into trouble. Yet, the vast majority of the time kids are merely being kids and not being "sinful." When my then 2 year old son put dog poop in my purse it was a very naughty thing to do. I wasn't happy about it, and it really was quite gross. Yet, I didn't punish him for this misbehavior because at that age he didn't have the capacity to know that what he did was wrong. I told him it was wrong, I told him why it was wrong, and he hasn't done it again. He was "corrected" but he wasn't punished.

Generally speaking kids have a hard time understanding morals, ethics, truth, and such on abstract issues until they are closer to 7-8 years old. So while they will be disciplined for bad behavior, it should be done with a heart of correction rather than discipline. You can't and shouldn't punish a kid merely for being a kid, you have to teach them what is and is not OK. My son thought he was doing a good thing by picking up the poop off the deck (our dog loves pooping on decks for some reason unknown to me), he didn't understand that you put it in the trash rather than mom's purse.

So my understanding of the Theotokos is that she was sinless, but that doesn't mean that she was never naughty as a kid. Once she knew what was right/wrong, she was able to choose not to sin. Likewise I don't think that Christ as a child was never-ever-ever naughty and inherently knew everything from birth. As he grew, matured, and learned, he did what was right once he knew what was right.

Thanks for your perspective. As a single guy, it's given me a lot to consider that I never really thought about before.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2017, 10:40:10 PM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned.

Doesn't that more speak against an IC, though? Eve chose to sin, Mary could have but didn't. It seems to me that the IC is kind of a denial of her free will.
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Offline CarolS

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2017, 11:16:56 PM »
It seems to me that the RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception not only denies Mary, the Theotokos, as being fully human like us, but by extension, then Christ also could not have been fully human.

It gives us hope to know that by grace, we are not slaves to sin, but can choose and strive to be without sin. Many of the accounts of the Saints show this.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2017, 05:36:42 PM »
It seems to me that the RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception not only denies Mary, the Theotokos, as being fully human like us, but by extension, then Christ also could not have been fully human.

It gives us hope to know that by grace, we are not slaves to sin, but can choose and strive to be without sin. Many of the accounts of the Saints show this.

Amen.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2017, 11:56:32 PM »
I imagine punching mcarmichael in his face for talking about my Mom.
I dunno. I just have a really difficult time with it.

Let's compare it to Israel. Israel has a king, and there is a prophecy that it will always have a king, until the Messiah comes. Okay? So, in the meanwhile, the Israelites are off doing all sorts of bad stuff, like drinking too much wine, sodomizing visitors, stuff like that. You're with me so far?
Why should the church be any different? That's how it seems to me. That's what I get, reading Paul, and Peter, and Jude, and other Apostles.
Except with the church it's bishops, bread, and baptism, I think. Something like that.
Also, I do apologize if I seemed to be suggesting something disgraceful of the mother of our Lord. It didn't even occur to me that skateboarding might carry the same stigma today as it did in my youth.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 11:58:07 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2017, 09:39:43 PM »
This text, which plainly foretells an Immaculate Virgin free of guilt giving birth without pain, as so many of the holy Fathers (including St. Damascene and St. Augustine) explicitly point out, also necessitates something more - in light of God imposing in Genesis the pangs of childbirth as a consequence of Eves transgression, it follows that the Immaculate Virgin Mary was in no way subject to the curse of Eve by nature. Otherwise She would have given birth in pain. Her lack of it is a sign from God of Her being created sinless, just like Eve was before the fall.

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Pope Leo I of Rome, Letter 28 ("Tome of Leo"), IV
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2017, 02:06:26 AM »
I'm at the point now, after a considerable amount of google search, that I feel I can honestly say "I want to believe."

I feel somewhat conflicted about that. It's like my inner contrarian is like "... and that's how they get you!" :)

Side note, I just read Isaiah 66, thanks for that.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 02:07:20 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2017, 01:13:32 PM »
There is no pronoun in the Latin, Mor. The translation is faulty and should be "He assumed His Mother's Nature, without fault" (Latin: Assumpta est de Matre Domini natura, non culpa). There is no Her. He became true Man by His nativity from His Mother thereby assuming Her nature as He shared His eternal Father's nature by His eternal birth. Such is the doctrine of Pope St. Leo I. There is no reference to a fault of the Virgin in the text. So now to St. Ephraim of Syria, how do we understand his statement that Jesus and Mary "alone are in all things pure. There is no flaw in" Him and "no stain" in Her? St. Ephraim places Her above the Angels in being altogether stainless and wholly pure; yet Angels are created without original stain and the good ones did not sin. What follows from this? That Mary was also created without stain, lived a sinless life even more than they did, and because Her obedience was more prompt, Her sufferings greater than Angels who do not suffer bodily etc in short because of a perfect cooperation with God's grace became far holier than the highest cherubim and sinless seraphim, as all Tradition testifies.

CarolS and Volnutt, We have come to think of sin as somewhat part of creation or at least of humanity, so that we are suspect of one who does not sin, or think one who does so could not be fully human. On the contrary, our first parents were created without stain and possessed of indwelling grace, and sin was never God's will for them. St. Andrew of Crete says of the Holy Virgin "When the Mother of Him Who is Beauty Himself is Born, this nature regains in Her person all its ancient privileges" where you have the Catholic doctrine stated. Mary was the new Eve, God made creation new and began with a new Mother of the living, full of grace, this time who would not fall, but preserve the grace She received for Her children also. And St. Sophronius says to the Theotokos "No one has been purified in advance as Thou hast been" which shows Mary's manner of being purified/sanctified is unique among the Saints. What could this be? St. John the Baptist was purified in the womb as the Holy Ghost fell at the Virgin's word, as we read in the Gospel of St. Luke. What is being purified even in advance of this, like no one else ever has, as St. Sophronius says Mary was? It remains that She, as the Immaculate and chosen Bride of the Holy Spirit, made all holy by the all Holy Spirit, was sanctified even in advance compared to the Precursor. Before the womb. So, at conception.

Sharbel, read the text again. It says Mary was created by Christ without stain just as Jesus came from Mary having no stain. The Catholic doctrine is that the stain of sin is in all of us and is removed in baptismal regeneration. Jesus and Mary as New Eve and Adam were kept from this original stain, as St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:17:55 PM by Xavier »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2017, 01:32:26 PM »
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CarolS and Volnutt, We have come to think of sin as somewhat part of creation or at least of humanity, so that we are suspect of one who does not sin, or think one who does so could not be fully human. On the contrary, our first parents were created without stain and possessed of indwelling grace, and sin was never God's will for them.

Says who? They were made innocent, but that's not quite the same thing as being perfect, otherwise how did the Fall even happen in the first place?

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St. Andrew of Crete says of the Holy Virgin "When the Mother of Him Who is Beauty Himself is Born, this nature regains in Her person all its ancient privileges" where you have the Catholic doctrine stated. Mary was the new Eve, God made creation new and began with a new Mother of the living, full of grace, this time who would not fall, but preserve the grace She received for Her children also. And St. Sophronius says to the Theotokos "No one has been purified in advance as Thou hast been" which shows Mary's manner of being purified/sanctified is unique among the Saints. What could this be? St. John the Baptist was purified in the womb as the Holy Ghost fell at the Virgin's word, as we read in the Gospel of St. Luke. What is being purified even in advance of this, like no one else ever has, as St. Sophronius says Mary was? It remains that She, as the Immaculate and chosen Bride of the Holy Spirit, made all holy by the all Holy Spirit, was sanctified even in advance compared to the Precursor. Before the womb. So, at conception.

I don't think that the St. Andrew quote requires the IC. Seems to me that it could work just as well with the idea that she was sinless by choice (keeping in mind, of course, that all obedience is ultimately by the grace of God).

The St. Sophronius quote sounds like hyperbole. She came from a holy home and background to be sure (St. Gregory Palamas taught as much), but that's a far cry from saying that she was therefore ontologicaly different from us. How does a sinless human even come from two sin-capable parents in the first place? The logic of the IC would require "ICs all the way down."
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:37:27 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2017, 01:25:23 AM »
Sharbel, read the text again. It says Mary was created by Christ without stain just as Jesus came from Mary having no stain. The Catholic doctrine is that the stain of sin is in all of us and is removed in baptismal regeneration. Jesus and Mary as New Eve and Adam were kept from this original stain, as St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies.
Neither Adam nor Eve were kept from any original stain as they had yet to fall into sin.

Then again, why was the Word made flesh if God could keep everyone free from this original stain and not only Mary?  And if the nature that Jesus assumed to Heaven was different from mine, then I cannot enter into Heaven, making St. Paul a fool, who thought that Our Lord were the first fruits of the harvest that is you and I (cf. 1Cor 15:23)?  If Jesus is a special kind of human or human as before the fall, then he did not redeem humanity at all, for that human nature needed no redemption (cf. St. Athanasius of Alexandria).  Moreover, then his resurrection would have no special meaning, for Adam and Eve became mortal only after the fall, not requiring any divine power to raise from the tomb.  Therefore, putting in question the resurrection of the dead of all children of Adam and Eve, since our human nature is incapable of eternal life without its being risen from the dead in Christ Jesus. 

Additionally, it makes little of Mary's virtue, who is "greater than the Heavens" because she never sinned though she inherited the fallen nature of Eve.  Who, according to Holy Tradition, held also by the Church of Rome, died, an impossibility if her nature were free of that original stain.

Nay, it's a faulty teaching that has no place in the Church.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 01:30:08 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2017, 05:53:49 AM »
Sharbel, read the text again. It says Mary was created by Christ without stain just as Jesus came from Mary having no stain. The Catholic doctrine is that the stain of sin is in all of us and is removed in baptismal regeneration. Jesus and Mary as New Eve and Adam were kept from this original stain, as St. Proclus of Constantinople testifies.
Neither Adam nor Eve were kept from any original stain as they had yet to fall into sin.

Then again, why was the Word made flesh if God could keep everyone free from this original stain and not only Mary?  And if the nature that Jesus assumed to Heaven was different from mine, then I cannot enter into Heaven, making St. Paul a fool, who thought that Our Lord were the first fruits of the harvest that is you and I (cf. 1Cor 15:23)?  If Jesus is a special kind of human or human as before the fall, then he did not redeem humanity at all, for that human nature needed no redemption (cf. St. Athanasius of Alexandria).  Moreover, then his resurrection would have no special meaning, for Adam and Eve became mortal only after the fall, not requiring any divine power to raise from the tomb.  Therefore, putting in question the resurrection of the dead of all children of Adam and Eve, since our human nature is incapable of eternal life without its being risen from the dead in Christ Jesus. 

Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're saying that the logic of the Incarnation disproves Catholic-style original sin?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2017, 04:08:42 PM »
Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're saying that the logic of the Incarnation disproves Catholic-style original sin?
Perish the thought if I erred, but I think that this is the gist of the argument made by Met. Kallistos in The Orthodox Way.  The Syriac Churches also make this argument, through which I firstly learned it, even if I make it injustice.

In other words, man does not inherit our Forebears' sin, only its consequence: death.  The Virgin Mary inherited death like us all and thus so did Jesus Christ.  However, neither ever sinned, yet both died.  He, by dying, destroyed death by rising from the dead, healing human nature from the consequence of the sin of our first ancestors.  So much so that His Holy Mother was taken up to Heaven, body and soul, upon her death. 

Again, had the Mother of God been given the same human nature as Eve's before the Fall, she'd never die and neither would her Son, Our God.  If Jesus died, it was because He inherited our fallen nature, but, because He cannot bear any sin, there is no inherited sin in human nature.  Our sinfulness is our own doing, not God's.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 04:10:36 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2017, 03:57:24 AM »
1. Volnutt, the progessive sanctification of Mother Mary's ancestors (not "ics all the way down", but greater and greater holiness until the Stainless Ark where God Almighty could dwell was formed) is taught by both St. John Damascene and Gregory Palamas among others. To quote the former "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!" In a similar light, speaking of the House God built for Himself, St. Cyril asks, "Who ever heard of an architect, building a house for himself, and giving possession of it to his greatest enemy?"

St. Augustine says, "We do not transfer Mary to the devil by the condition of her birth, for this reason, that that condition is dissolved by the grace of her new birth." If you read the full citation from St. Andrew, I dont see how you can deny that he is teaching Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, where sin will be no more, in Her  "humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility." See http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.in/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html?m=1

Two more western authorities, St. Ambrose, the Theotokos is "a virgin freed by grace from every stain of sin." And St. Fulgentius ""By these words [Hail, full of grace], the angel shows that she [Mary] was altogether excluded from the wrath of the first sentence, and restored to the full grace of blessing."

Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council? One of your saints in the link mentioned earlier relates that he thought "Perhaps the Mother of God sinned, at least in thought." But immediately he heard the voice of the Holy Ghost in his soul defending His bride "No, the Mother of God never sinned, not even in thought". Since lesser souls cannot always hear the Holy Ghost perfectly and also because it is not right to expect the Lord to speak personally to each and every one of the faithful to confirm the doctrine, since the Church is the living voice of the Spirit, would it not be fitting for the Orthodox Church to define the doctrine of Mary's perfect sinlessness, to keep the faithful from errors like that to which the saint above originally fell?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 04:06:08 AM by Xavier »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2017, 04:30:41 AM »
2. Sharbel, I agree with Bp. Kallistos Ware when he said "The Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, if only they had shared the doctrine of original sin" (roughly, from memory). To answer that and your objection, we need to speak a little more about original sin. Do you agree with these two early Councils on original sin?

"Canon 2 (529 A.D) "If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle" and it means simply that we are born deprived of indwelling grace until we are born again in Baptism. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Councils/Orange.htm Original sin, says St. Thomas Aquinas, is formally, the privation of sanctifying grace. Original sin is very clear in early Councils.

"Council of Carthage, Canon 2 (418 A.D) Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as falseand not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it.

http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/carthage_canons_on_sin_and_grace.htm

Now, to the objection - here are two texts to ponder that say Mary was free from the penalty of bodily death, She chose to die voluntarily and freely (just as She was free from natural birth pangs, but chose to undergo them at the Cross in giving birth to us, for this the Catholic Church honors Her as Queen of Martyrs", in the same way She freely chose to sleep in death before Her body was Assumed higher than the heavens, but without needing to). St. John Damascene, "How could death claim as its prey this truly blessed one ... Death trembled before her. In approaching her Son, death had learnt experience from His sufferings, and had grown wiser. The gloomy descent to hell was not for her, but a joyous, easy, and sweet passage to heaven." Www.catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/lectio-divina-solemnity-of-the-assumption-aug-15/

Ans St. Germanus of Constantinople "how could dissolution of the body return you to dust and ashes, you who delivered the human race from the destruction of death through the incarnation of your Son? ... It was clearly in the same way as he made his own life- giving tomb that he made your sepulcher wonderful also, as the tomb of your falling asleep, a tomb which received life; therefore both tombs really received your bodies, but could in no way affect them with corruption.

For nor could you, as the vessel which contained God, waste away to dust in the destruction of death? For since he who humbled himself in you was God from beginning and eternal life, so the Mother of Life was to share the dwelling of Life, to accept her death like a sleep and consent to her translation like a waking, as the Mother of Life."

God raising Her bodily above the heavens is another sign, like Her naturally painless birth, that Mary is everything Eve was meant to be but was not. Mary succeeded in everything Eve failed at. Both Jesus and Mary never needed to die but chose to.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2017, 06:24:10 AM »
1. Volnutt, the progessive sanctification of Mother Mary's ancestors (not "ics all the way down", but greater and greater holiness until the Stainless Ark where God Almighty could dwell was formed) is taught by both St. John Damascene and Gregory Palamas among others. To quote the former "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!" In a similar light, speaking of the House God built for Himself, St. Cyril asks, "Who ever heard of an architect, building a house for himself, and giving possession of it to his greatest enemy?"

St. Augustine says, "We do not transfer Mary to the devil by the condition of her birth, for this reason, that that condition is dissolved by the grace of her new birth." If you read the full citation from St. Andrew, I dont see how you can deny that he is teaching Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, where sin will be no more, in Her  "humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility." See http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.in/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html?m=1

Two more western authorities, St. Ambrose, the Theotokos is "a virgin freed by grace from every stain of sin." And St. Fulgentius ""By these words [Hail, full of grace], the angel shows that she [Mary] was altogether excluded from the wrath of the first sentence, and restored to the full grace of blessing."

Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council? One of your saints in the link mentioned earlier relates that he thought "Perhaps the Mother of God sinned, at least in thought." But immediately he heard the voice of the Holy Ghost in his soul defending His bride "No, the Mother of God never sinned, not even in thought". Since lesser souls cannot always hear the Holy Ghost perfectly and also because it is not right to expect the Lord to speak personally to each and every one of the faithful to confirm the doctrine, since the Church is the living voice of the Spirit, would it not be fitting for the Orthodox Church to define the doctrine of Mary's perfect sinlessness, to keep the faithful from errors like that to which the saint above originally fell?

Saying that progressive purification could result in a baby born without original sin is like saying that, given enough time, I could count to infinity. It makes no sense. Now, maybe you could have something like the IC without a doctrine of original sin, and maybe that's what the Fathers you quote are talking about, but to me it seems redundant and it wouldn't be what Catholics mean by the IC anyway.

And if you say she was free of original sin on the basis of the future death of Christ, then you lose the idea that the IC was necessary for Christ to be free from original sin in the first place.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2017, 01:26:46 PM »
If Original Sin, in the sense of actual guiltiness, is put aside, then there is still plenty of room for speculation as to how the Blessed Mother became capable of so holy a life, and so assuming e.g. seven generations (just to pull a figure from St. Moses) of increasing piety and discipline preceded her is not at all necessarily in the same category of thought as the Immaculate Conception. Desperate hypothesis such as that can be put aside with the putting aside of assertion of Original Sin, but, to reiterate, plenty of speculation remains, in a wholly other vein.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2017, 01:30:24 PM »
If Original Sin, in the sense of actual guiltiness, is put aside, then there is still plenty of room for speculation as to how the Blessed Mother became capable of so holy a life, and so assuming e.g. seven generations (just to pull a figure from St. Moses) of increasing piety and discipline preceded her is not at all necessarily in the same category of thought as the Immaculate Conception. Desperate hypothesis such as that can be put aside with the putting aside of assertion of Original Sin, but, to reiterate, plenty of speculation remains, in a wholly other vein.

Agreed.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2017, 01:37:25 PM »
(....)

Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council? One of your saints in the link mentioned earlier relates that he thought "Perhaps the Mother of God sinned, at least in thought." But immediately he heard the voice of the Holy Ghost in his soul defending His bride "No, the Mother of God never sinned, not even in thought". Since lesser souls cannot always hear the Holy Ghost perfectly and also because it is not right to expect the Lord to speak personally to each and every one of the faithful to confirm the doctrine, since the Church is the living voice of the Spirit, would it not be fitting for the Orthodox Church to define the doctrine of Mary's perfect sinlessness, to keep the faithful from errors like that to which the saint above originally fell?

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2017, 01:38:28 PM »
The interest in hereditary purity seems a bit strange to me. Isn't it part of the 'good news' that it doesn't matter who your parents are or where you came from, and that virtue and salvation instead have to do with your own choices and actions (prompted, performed and completed through grace)? As if to make this point the genealogy in the one gospel goes out of its way to insert prominent sinners in the line, and Jesus specifically refutes the notion that things like blindness were the result of the sin of someone's parents (John 9).

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #95 on: November 27, 2017, 01:53:04 PM »
The interest in hereditary purity seems a bit strange to me. Isn't it part of the 'good news' that it doesn't matter who your parents are or where you came from, and that virtue and salvation instead have to do with your own choices and actions (prompted, performed and completed through grace)? As if to make this point the genealogy in the one gospel goes out of its way to insert prominent sinners in the line, and Jesus specifically refutes the notion that things like blindness were the result of the sin of someone's parents (John 9).

As I recall, the way that Fr. Hopko explained it was that Saints often raised other Saints, that it's just a lot easier to be holy yourself if you come from a holy upbringing. That's not to deny that the children of godly people can't go bad, or that a person from an immoral background can't become a Saint, it's just talking about what's more likely.

Of course, that wouldn't really serve Xavier's purposes.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 01:55:16 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #96 on: November 27, 2017, 01:54:26 PM »
Also, I don't recall St. John Chrysostom ever recanting his speculations about Mary sinning in thought. Did he?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #97 on: November 27, 2017, 03:46:28 PM »
Okay, this is all a bit new to me, so please forgive me if err.

May I say that I have saved myself (hypothetically speaking), according to St. Peter in The Acts of the Apostles, Ch. 2 V. 40?
Quote
And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

We all have our biases, afterall.

Alright, let's not make this about me. Let's say the saints. Is it permissible to say that the the saints also saved themselves? Because there's one for any Calvinist to consider, amiright?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 03:56:34 PM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2017, 12:33:47 AM »
Okay, @Xavier, so I found a couple of Orthodox hymns that are used liturgically, which I have seen suggested that they suggest what you said.

I say that they are used liturgically, but I haven't observed them being used liturgically. Be that as it may, let us continue. The hymns are to follow:

Quote
The services of the Church proclaim that the Theotokos was/is...

* ‘never subject to the taint of sin’ (Feast of the Entry, ode 9 at matins, first canon) This, I should think, is about as direct as one could ask for.

‘a temple truly divine … innocent from the time she was a babe’ (Feast of the Entry, sessional hymn at matins) Note how this ascription ensures that we do not simply believe that her purity was physical (i.e. her virginity), but stresses 'innocence', which is a condition of soul.

‘undefiled’ and ‘all-undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Doxastikon at vespers; ode 1 at matins; many other places)

* ‘she who alone is undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Lity) Note the stress that is placed here on the unique nature of the Theotokos being undefiled. I draw attention to this, because one of the common arguments offered by those seeking to depart from the teaching of the Fathers on this topic, is that descriptions of the Virgin as 'pure' and 'undefiled' refer to her virginity -- i.e. that these are not references to a question of sin, but to physical virginity. However, this hymn says that the Theotokos is 'alone' in being undefiled: something that is clearly not true of 'undefiled' merely means virginal, as there are many people who are virginal.

source: http://www.monachos.net/conversation/topic/5916-question-about-the-sinlessness-of-the-theotokos/page-4 (per an "Archimandrite Irenei", around the middle of the page and in small-ish text.)

It seems like enough for me to consider that it is the teaching of the [Orthodox] church, whether it's true or not.
Fr. Seraphim seems to have been having an existential crisis, and there isn't anything wrong with that. If that is the case, however, it could only be because he came to understand that the Orthodox church is indeed explicit.

I could easily be wrong about that, however.

I suppose, in light of the honor which was granted to her, it may be possible to consider that she didn't ever succumb to any willful sin, because Mosaic Law isn't actually that demanding. There is stuff that you can be excused for, on the day of Atonement I think it was. Other stuff that you couldn't be excused for, per St. Paul the Apostle in one of his epistles. It's brilliant anyway. I'm sure she's easily the first among the saints, especially when you consider that she was (IS!) a woman. I mean, it would be difficult enough for a man to accomplish; but a woman? Not one woman in 10,000 is just.

Or is it only a coincidence that she is unique among women, being greeted by an Archangel: "Hail, graceful being!"? Dissimilar also to the prophets.

I see how you Catholic get into this. I could go on. If experience is any guide, I could easily go too far, also.
Well, and I can't argue with father Irenei (above), really, concerning their common meaning, can I?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 01:33:17 AM by mcarmichael »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2017, 12:35:49 AM »
2. Sharbel, I agree with Bp. Kallistos Ware when he said "The Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, if only they had shared the doctrine of original sin" (roughly, from memory). To answer that and your objection, we need to speak a little more about original sin.
Firstly, set aside the Catholic bias that reads Immaculate Conception in every loose statement about the sinlessness of the Mother of God.  This dogma only makes sense in the West, strongly influenced by St. Augustine's idea of inherited sin.  Yet, many Eastern Fathers proclaimed her sinlessness without reference to original sin, thus to the Immaculate Conception, but to her exceeding virtue.

Quote from: Xavier
Do you agree with these two early Councils on original sin?
Do you agree that these are local councils, not ecumenical ones?  Therefore, they are not infallible, so to say.    No, I do not agree with these Western councils that pretty much just paraphrase St. Augustine.

Quote from: Xavier
Now, to the objection - here are two texts to ponder that say Mary was free from the penalty of bodily death, She chose to die voluntarily and freely (just as She was free from natural birth pangs, but chose to undergo them at the Cross in giving birth to us, for this the Catholic Church honors Her as Queen of Martyrs", in the same way She freely chose to sleep in death before Her body was Assumed higher than the heavens, but without needing to)...

God raising Her bodily above the heavens is another sign, like Her naturally painless birth, that Mary is everything Eve was meant to be but was not. Mary succeeded in everything Eve failed at. Both Jesus and Mary never needed to die but chose to.
Again, set aside the Catholic bias for a moment...  And, please, set aside pious speculations too.

Having said this, "the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth" (cf. 1Tim 3:15), not this Church Father or that one.  The Church celebrates the Feast of the Dormitioin of the Mother of God, which means that she fell asleep; she died.  This feast is also celebrated by the Eastern Catholic Churches, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, which celebrates this date as the feast of the Assumption of Mary.  AFAIK, the Catholic Church did not define dogmatically whether the Blessed Virgin died or not.  Yet, it wouldn't surprise that it would do define its version of things dogmatically, as it's done every so often.

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception actually diminishes the greatness of the one that even the Heavens cannot contain, the Virgin Mary.  For, though being subject to death like us and unlike Eve, she remained sinless, showing us that the human race doesn't have to be immaculate from conception to live a sinless life.  Not to mention that to suggest that God, the one incapable of evil, creates new souls at conception with the evil of sin in them is absurd.

No, St. Augustine, one of my favorite saints, goofed up on the original sin, regrettably influencing first N. Africa with this speculation and then Rome.  And here do I stand.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2017, 12:44:50 AM »
Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council?
Why?  Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.  It used to be done only under the duress of heresy, but after Trent it's done that liberally for no good reason and not without consternation in and outside.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #101 on: November 28, 2017, 07:02:13 AM »
Okay, this is all a bit new to me, so please forgive me if err.

May I say that I have saved myself (hypothetically speaking), according to St. Peter in The Acts of the Apostles, Ch. 2 V. 40?
Quote
And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

We all have our biases, afterall.

Alright, let's not make this about me. Let's say the saints. Is it permissible to say that the the saints also saved themselves? Because there's one for any Calvinist to consider, amiright?

Might be best to do this one in a new thread. In short I think the answer is, and even Calvin would likely agree, Philippians 2:13. Our good works are still the product of the grace of God.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2017, 07:08:33 AM »
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception actually diminishes the greatness of the one that even the Heavens cannot contain, the Virgin Mary.  For, though being subject to death like us and unlike Eve, she remained sinless, showing us that the human race doesn't have to be immaculate from conception to live a sinless life.

Good point.

Not to mention that to suggest that God, the one incapable of evil, creates new souls at conception with the evil of sin in them is absurd.

Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 07:12:54 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2017, 10:08:28 AM »
Also, I don't recall St. John Chrysostom ever recanting his speculations about Mary sinning in thought. Did he?

Since this opinion was basically repeated in St Theophylact's commentary, I'm guessing no.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2017, 10:54:59 AM »
There is no pronoun in the Latin, Mor. The translation is faulty and should be "He assumed His Mother's Nature, without fault" (Latin: Assumpta est de Matre Domini natura, non culpa). There is no Her. He became true Man by His nativity from His Mother thereby assuming Her nature as He shared His eternal Father's nature by His eternal birth. Such is the doctrine of Pope St. Leo I. There is no reference to a fault of the Virgin in the text.

Not so fast. Possession is often implied in Latin without using pronouns. And in this case, I am strongly in favor of Mor's cited translation. The ablative of respect for "natura" and "non culpa" strongly imply the possession of the Virgin Mary. The use of the verb "assumo" adds further weight in favor of this translation.

I would like to further suggest that we take a look at the Greek as well. I don't read Greek, so I'ma just post it here and hope and ask that others translate it, since there are many Greek readers here. I think I've extracted the correct portion of the text, so here:

Quote
Καὶ προσελήφθη ἐκ τῆς μητρὸς τοῦ δεσπότου φύσις, οὐχ ἁμαρτία· οὐ μὴν ἐπειδήπερ ἐν τῷ δεσπότῃ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ τῷ τεχθέντι ἐκ τῆς γαστρὸς τῆς παρθένου θαυμαστὴ τίς ἐστιν ἡ γέννησις, διὰ τοῦτο ἡμῖν οὐχ ἡ φύσις ὁμοία· ὁ γὰρ ὢν Θεὸς ἀληθὴς, αὐτός ἐστι καὶ ἄνθρωπος ἀληθής.

The full Greek passage can be found at the following link and pdf download on column/page 768. It should be in section A: http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0440-0461__SS_Leo_I._Magnus__Epistolae__MLT.pdf.html

Please don't slap me for not posting a translation. I simply don't know Greek.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2017, 11:04:15 AM »
Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
Man is not a primary creator, creating something out of nothing, only God is.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 11:10:44 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2017, 11:14:15 AM »
Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
Man is not a primary creator, creating something out of nothing, only God is.

In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2017, 01:27:15 PM »
Now if you say these refer only to personal sin, I have a question - if the Orthodox bishops agree at least that the Mother of God is personally sinless, could this not be dogmatically defined in a Council?
Why?  Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.  It used to be done only under the duress of heresy, but after Trent it's done that liberally for no good reason and not without consternation in and outside.

Why indeed. So true.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2017, 01:27:40 PM »
Isn't that where Traducianism becomes an option? God is not directly creating the new souls, but rather their parents are?
Man is not a primary creator, creating something out of nothing, only God is.

In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.

Fascinating.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2017, 10:56:36 PM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #110 on: November 29, 2017, 03:01:46 AM »
Quote from: Mcarmichael
The hymns are to follow:

The services of the Church proclaim that the Theotokos was/is...

* ‘never subject to the taint of sin’ (Feast of the Entry, ode 9 at matins, first canon) This, I should think, is about as direct as one could ask for.

‘a temple truly divine … innocent from the time she was a babe’
(Feast of the Entry, sessional hymn at matins) Note how this ascription ensures that we do not simply believe that her purity was physical (i.e. her virginity), but stresses 'innocence', which is a condition of soul.

‘undefiled’ and ‘all-undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Doxastikon at vespers; ode 1 at matins; many other places)

* ‘she who alone is undefiled’ (Feast of the Entry, Lity) Note the stress that is placed here on the unique nature of the Theotokos being undefiled. I draw attention to this, because one of the common arguments offered by those seeking to depart from the teaching of the Fathers on this topic, is that descriptions of the Virgin as 'pure' and 'undefiled' refer to her virginity -- i.e. that these are not references to a question of sin, but to physical virginity. However, this hymn says that the Theotokos is 'alone' in being undefiled: something that is clearly not true of 'undefiled' merely means virginal, as there are many people who are virginal.

How beautiful. Thanks for this, Mcarmichael. It's like we read in the infancy Gospel of St. Matthew, how the Immaculate Virgin was so gentle, so amiable, so chaste, so pure, so universally admired even when She was but an Infant, "And Mary was held in admiration by all the people of Israel; and when she was three years old, she walked with a step so mature, she spoke so perfectly, and spent her time so assiduously in the praises of God, that all were astonished at her, and wondered; and she was not reckoned a young infant, but as it were a grown-up person of thirty years old. She was so constant in prayer, and her appearance was so beautiful and glorious, that scarcely any one could look into her face. And she occupied herself constantly with her wool-work, so that she in her tender years could do all that old women were not able to do. And this was the order that she had set for herself: From the morning to the third hour she remained in prayer; from the third to the ninth she was occupied with her weaving; and from the ninth she again applied herself to prayer. She did not retire from praying until there appeared to her the angel of the Lord, from whose hand she used to receive food; and thus she became more and more perfect in the work of God. Then, when the older virgins rested from the praises of God, she did not rest at all; so that in the praises and vigils of God none were found before her, no one more learned in the wisdom of the law of God, more lowly in humility, more elegant in singing, more perfect in all virtue.

She was indeed steadfast, immoveable, unchangeable, and daily advancing to perfection. No one saw her angry, nor heard her speaking evil. All her speech was so full of grace, that her God was acknowledged to be in her tongue. She was always engaged in prayer and in searching the law, and she was anxious lest by any word of hers she should sin with regard to her companions. Then she was afraid lest in her laughter, or the sound of her beautiful voice, she should commit any fault, or lest, being elated, she should display any wrong-doing or haughtiness to one of her equals. She blessed God without intermission; and lest perchance, even in her salutation, she might cease from praising God; if any one saluted her, she used to answer by way of salutation: Thanks be to God. And from her the custom first began of men saying, Thanks be to God, when they saluted each other. She refreshed herself only with the food which she daily received from the hand of the angel; but the food which she obtained from the priests she divided among the poor. The angels of God were often seen speaking with her, and they most diligently obeyed her. If any one who was unwell touched her, the same hour he went home cured."

Biblically, we see Mary and Jesus prophesied in Gen 3:15, as having a special enmity with Satan and his offspring. The Seed of a Woman prophesy already foretells a divine Messiah will be born of a Virgin Mother to crush the Serpent's head. In Revelation, we see the Ark of God carried up into Heaven, not a physical Ark made of gold, but a Woman whose golden Heart was stainless, crowned by God with 12 stars, which indicates also that She possessed the 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit in their plenitude during Her earthly life. She is shown clothed with the glory of the sun, with the moon under Her feet, and together with Her seed, in enmity with Satan. As you point out, the Angel salutes Her as Hail, full of grace, so reverently, whereas men like Abraham and Lot in turn venerated and bowed before the Angels who appeared to them. Finally, John the Baptist, of whom the Angel said he would be filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb, leaps in joy at the presence of Jesus and Mary, while St. Elizabeth, in immortal words that would never cease to be repeated in the Church, cries out "Blessed are You among women and blessed is the fruit of Your womb" and "How is this given to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me" paralleling what David said in 2 Sam 6, "How can the Ark of the Lord come to me". The Ark which remained for 3 months and brought the Lord God's blessings. The Queen of Prophets said, "Surely all generations henceforth shall call Me Blessed, for He that is mighty has done great things to me" as indeed has come to pass in every generation, a prophesy fulfilled to the letter. Mary is a matchless wonder wrought by the Omnipotent hand of the Most High. I like what an Eastern professor said after hearing Pope Pius IX declare the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, "We have always believed and always taught this doctrine. This point is too sacred to give rise to quarrels and it has no need of a deputation from Rome."

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #111 on: November 29, 2017, 03:18:41 AM »
Sharbel, there are many ways to answer what you said, but I will make use of a Biblical one - your opinion, if I understand it right, is essentially that no one is born in sin, that everyone has the Holy Spirit indwelling him since birth, from which it would follow in fact that we are all immaculately conceived. For, you say, "to suggest that God, the one incapable of evil, creates new souls at conception with the evil of sin in them is absurd". This contradicts what St. Paul said, what King David said, and what the Angel said. For, as mentioned above, the Angel implies that children are not usually filled with the Holy Spirit, and that John the Baptist would be so filled as a special grace. This shows that we do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling us naturally until God gives Him to us. We do not have him by natural birth and so must be born again, supernaturally regenerated by grace. God gives Him to us as He chooses, ordinarily in baptism, He gave it to the Baptist in the womb, and to She who was holier than the Baptist and an instrument in his sanctification, before that.

And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This is that hereditary Stain of which the Stainless Ark of the Lord - Who Alone is made All-Holy by the grace of Him Who is All-Holy by nature - is free. It is to Her that He speaks, "You are all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee" in the Song of Solomon. And He calls Her a Lily among Thorns in the same Song for the same reason, as the Fathers understand. She, as Mother of the Church, is already "without spot or wrinkle" as St. Paul says the Church will be on the Last Day. A daughter, a Princess, beholds in a Mother, a Queen, what She Herself will be in the end. That is what the Church beholds in Mary, a perfect exemplar of theosis, the symbol of the human soul fully sanctified, being that spotless tabernacle of God she was meant to be.

By venerating Her as altogether Stainless, we receive a share in Her merits, our sanctification will progress more swiftly, and finally, we will be made perfect like Her, and able to live without sin. Were we all so perfect at age 3, or even around age 15-16 when She left the temple (and the priests said, The Glory of God itself seems to have left the temple now that Mary is no longer there) that we could demand, like Her, that we also ought to be immaculately conceived? If we are cradle Christians, we receive the grace of sanctification in infancy, in holy baptism. John the Baptist and some others received it in the womb. God gives His grace as He chooses, He does not need to consult us for it first. Why should we complain, especially since because of Mary and Jesus, we are now regenerated in baptism? Your opinion of original sin makes baptism meaningless. Granted that Carthage is not Ecumenical, its logic is still incontrovertible. If we are not truly born in sin, that means baptism is not truly for the remission of sins, and the Creed of the universal Church is wrong. Baptism causes us to be infilled with the Spirit whom by natural birth we do not have. For "all that is born of flesh is flesh. And all that is born of Spirit is spirit. Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit ..." etc

You may read it differently, but When we Catholics read St. Ambrose, "A Virgin without any stain of sin, whom grace has made immaculate", or hear Origen say "our heavenly guides, the Apostles, instituted baptism even for infants since they knew there was even in infants the stain of sin" and the Liturgy and all Sacred Tradition say Mary is Stainless, it seems evident to us that by this very term Stainless is meant that She is free not only from personal sins, but also the original sin, the hereditary stain of sin. You can call that a Catholic bias if you want, but I think the meaning is plain. Stainless means to be entirely without the stain of sin.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #112 on: November 29, 2017, 05:47:09 AM »

And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This is that hereditary Stain of which the Stainless Ark of the Lord - Who Alone is made All-Holy by the grace of Him Who is All-Holy by nature - is free. It is to Her that He speaks, "You are all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee" in the Song of Solomon. And He calls Her a Lily among Thorns in the same Song for the same reason, as the Fathers understand. She, as Mother of the Church, is already "without spot or wrinkle" as St. Paul says the Church will be on the Last Day.


Why is it that every time I learn of a new Theotokian typology, it blows my mind?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #113 on: November 29, 2017, 06:07:42 AM »

Quote
And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us.
This is not the same as inherited guilt, little children are not guilty for the sin of Adam, they however inherite this condition.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #114 on: November 29, 2017, 07:13:23 AM »
Quote
"Canon 2 (529 A.D) "If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle" and it means simply that we are born deprived of indwelling grace until we are born again in Baptism. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Councils/Orange.htm Original sin, says St. Thomas Aquinas, is formally, the privation of sanctifying grace. Original sin is very clear in early Councils.

"Council of Carthage, Canon 2 (418 A.D) Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as falseand not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it.

These do not clarify whether we inherite guilt for Adams sin.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #115 on: November 29, 2017, 09:21:50 AM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
:o

I don't see what the problem is unless one believes in some kind of Cartesian dualism in which the soul has to be completely unconnected from the body.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #116 on: November 29, 2017, 02:51:32 PM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
:o

I don't see what the problem is unless one believes in some kind of Cartesian dualism in which the soul has to be completely unconnected from the body.

I don't know if it's "a problem," but it's not Christianity. In the scriptural and sacred tradition, souls of men are God-breathed.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #117 on: November 29, 2017, 03:38:43 PM »
In Traducianism, the soul is not created out of nothing, it's a combination of the souls of the parents, much like how the body is a combination of their DNA.
:o

I don't see what the problem is unless one believes in some kind of Cartesian dualism in which the soul has to be completely unconnected from the body.

I don't know if it's "a problem," but it's not Christianity. In the scriptural and sacred tradition, souls of men are God-breathed.

And so they are. The same "material" that God gave Adam just gets recombined and reconstituted.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #118 on: November 29, 2017, 03:52:10 PM »
Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2017, 04:03:21 PM »
Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?

No? Sort of? Good luck getting Catholics to pin down which documents are infallible and which are not.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2017, 04:54:19 PM »
Even the Catholic Church hasn't defined most of her teachings dogmatically.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?

Definitely not infallible, as it's often changed. Just has that Vatican-brand infallible tone.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2017, 05:01:40 PM »
As I recall, up until Vatican I, the Irish version was calling Papal Infallibility a "Protestant myth."
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #122 on: November 30, 2017, 03:29:35 AM »

And this is what we mean by original sin. The CCC explains clearly, it is the privation of original justice and holiness, it means we are born without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This is that hereditary Stain of which the Stainless Ark of the Lord - Who Alone is made All-Holy by the grace of Him Who is All-Holy by nature - is free. It is to Her that He speaks, "You are all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee" in the Song of Solomon. And He calls Her a Lily among Thorns in the same Song for the same reason, as the Fathers understand. She, as Mother of the Church, is already "without spot or wrinkle" as St. Paul says the Church will be on the Last Day.


Why is it that every time I learn of a new Theotokian typology, it blows my mind?

It is beautiful, isn't it, like all Marian theology.

I. Mary as stainless type of the stainless Church as Bride of the Spirit is taught explicitly by both St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Ephraim of Syria. It is repeated in Lumen Gentium and the Catechism doesn't hesitate to say, "Mary goes before us all in the holiness that is the Church's mystery as "the bride without spot or wrinkle."194 This is why the "Marian" dimension of the Church precedes the "Petrine."195.  (CCC 773) Indeed, though St. Ambrose popularized the maxim Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia, we may summarize his Marian thought as Ubi Maria, Ibi Ecclesia. St. Ephraim also sees Mary giving Her fiat in the name of the whole Church. "829 "But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy." (CCC 829). It seems to us no coincidence at all these two Saints most clearly and explicitly taught that Mary was without any stain at all.

Some more testimonies -

1. St. Mark the Apostle and Evangelist, Divine Liturgy, "Most holy, immaculate, and blessed Mother of God, and ever Virgin Mary." Latin: "Sanctissima, immaculata, et benedicta, Deipara et semper virgine Maria."

2. St. James the Apostle, Bishop of Jerusalem, Divine Liturgy, "Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin ... in every respect out of the range of sinful men." and

3. St. Andrew the Apostle, whose feast we celebrate today, "And therefore, because the first man was created of immaculate earth, it was necessary that of an immaculate Virgin should be born a perfect man, that the Son of God should restore that eternal life which men had lost." Latin: "Et propterea, quod ex immaculatâ terrâ ereatus fuerat primus homo, necesse erat ut ex immaculatâ Virgine nasceretur perfectus homo, quo Filius Dei, qui antè condiderat hominem, vitam æternam quam perdiderant hominess, repararet." and

4. "Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], says that God formed Mary "without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato]."
WRH: Mary was sinless at the moment of her formation, i.e., she did not contract original sin.

The saintly bishop [Lambruschini 162] adds [Orat. in S. Deip. et Simeon], "He who formed the first Virgin without deformity, also made the second one without spot or sin." Latin: "Qui antiquam illam virginem sine probro condidit; Ipse, et secundam, sine nota et crimine fabricatus est."
WRH: Since Mary, like Eve, was made without sin, Mary did not contract original sin. St. Amphilochius [On the Presentation 8 in PG 39:57C]" http://catholicpatristics.blogspot.in/2009/03/immaculate-conception.html

II. Vanyho, Original sin probably requires another thread, but here's the CCC on the subject. I have a question for you, is baptism for the remission of sins or not? if so, what sin is remitted in infant baptism? The answer is original sin, where the death of the soul is healed, and the life of the Spirit infused into her. "we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin
[/u]" http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:33:02 AM by Xavier »

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #123 on: November 30, 2017, 01:16:00 PM »
Quote
I have a question for you, is baptism for the remission of sins or not? if so, what sin is remitted in infant baptism? The answer is original sin, where the death of the soul is healed, and the life of the Spirit infused into her. "
Are you trying to repudiate yourself ?

You still haven't proved infants are guilty for adam's sin, you only proved that they need to be healed.

The the Holy Virgin wasn't guilty for the sin of adam that makes the doctrine of the immaculate conception unnecessary, actually is more than that, this doctrine denies Her merits (willingly or unwillingly) since if She was born without broken condition but in the state of Eve prior to the fall, then it follows that She didn't need any effort what so ever to achieve what she achieved, on the contrary, we believe that Her great achievements is due to her great effort (cooperating with the grace of God), thus She is the greatest ascetic who ever lived.

now lets not get sidetracked, this topic is not about the honor of the Theotokos, this topic is about the honor of the pope, you see ? you are even willing to take away the merits of the Mother of God (knowingly or unknowingly), as long as your pope is proven infallible, which he is not.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 01:27:27 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #124 on: November 30, 2017, 01:31:18 PM »
Do Roman infants grow up never to sin then, Xavier? I think you're confusing the purpose of baptism with the purpose of your "last rites." Of course baptism washes away human error, but that like all mortal salvation is ongoing thru life: thru repentance, confession, prayer and fasting, and other spiritual rescue and growth. Baptism is a commencement of remittance of sin.

Altho it is worth noting too the context of your allusion and that most of those Christ and the Apostles invited to baptism were men and women old in sins.

The rest of your post is the usual sophistry of snippets and conflations, not worth addressing.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 01:36:04 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2017, 04:53:49 PM »
Quote
I have a question for you, is baptism for the remission of sins or not? if so, what sin is remitted in infant baptism? The answer is original sin, where the death of the soul is healed, and the life of the Spirit infused into her. "
Are you trying to repudiate yourself ?

You still haven't proved infants are guilty for adam's sin, you only proved that they need to be healed.

The the Holy Virgin wasn't guilty for the sin of adam that makes the doctrine of the immaculate conception unnecessary, actually is more than that, this doctrine denies Her merits (willingly or unwillingly) since if She was born without broken condition but in the state of Eve prior to the fall, then it follows that She didn't need any effort what so ever to achieve what she achieved, on the contrary, we believe that Her great achievements is due to her great effort (cooperating with the grace of God), thus She is the greatest ascetic who ever lived.

now lets not get sidetracked, this topic is not about the honor of the Theotokos, this topic is about the honor of the pope, you see ? you are even willing to take away the merits of the Mother of God (knowingly or unknowingly), as long as your pope is proven infallible, which he is not.

I was thinking some more about this line of argumentation again today. If Christ is incapable of sin, that doesn't take away from the fact that He kept the whole of the Law, right? So, maybe if Mary is incapable of sin, she can still have merit too.

I mean, Christ's sinlessness is first and foremost because of His divinity, so the two cases can't be exactly comparable (well, maybe if you believe she's a quasi-Incarnation like Maximilian Kolbe, but anyway), but it sill makes me wonder.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #126 on: December 01, 2017, 01:22:45 PM »
Quote
I was thinking some more about this line of argumentation again today. If Christ is incapable of sin, that doesn't take away from the fact that He kept the whole of the Law, right? So, maybe if Mary is incapable of sin, she can still have merit too.
Christ is Himself the law and the giver of the law, His merits are of different kind than the merits of created people, furthermore the merits of people are not any good by themselves but only serve as means to unite with Christ, who is author and giver of everything good in this world and Who have prepared what eye have not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, for those who love Him.

A good humanitarian for example, have his good deeds and merits in a way, but he is already taking his reward when he brags about it in front of the camera, and such doesn't unite with Christ nor gain the kingdom of heaven and his merits are more or less useless.

Or a buddist monk for example, he may fast, he may abstain from the world, he may pray, he may live in a cave but all this is completely useless since he is not doing it for Christ or His heavenly kingdom. Such person is completely wasting his time.

Merits are only good if they gain you Christ's love and His heavenly kingdom.

Although Christ kept the law, do not think of the Lord as someone Who needs to follow the law, think of Him as the law Himself and the giver of the law.

And this is why the logic you are trying to apply doesn't work.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 01:27:03 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #127 on: December 01, 2017, 01:38:00 PM »
I was thinking some more about this line of argumentation again today. If Christ is incapable of sin, that doesn't take away from the fact that He kept the whole of the Law, right? So, maybe if Mary is incapable of sin, she can still have merit too.

I mean, Christ's sinlessness is first and foremost because of His divinity, so the two cases can't be exactly comparable (well, maybe if you believe she's a quasi-Incarnation like Maximilian Kolbe, but anyway), but it sill makes me wonder.

As I recall the way it's usually discussed, e.g. in the letter to the Hebrews, Christ's unique "merit" pertains to his submitting to human flesh, as truly he is God. A mortal's merit would be complementary but opposite, viz., emulating God in spite of consisting in human flesh. And in fact the Theotokos does seem placed in just such harmonious apposition to the Son, as St. John Baptist also is sometimes positioned, being the most godlike of mortals in their categories, while Christ is (pardon the wording) the manlike God. But I think I get what your point is, tho I'm not sure myself what to make of it.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2017, 02:50:44 AM »
I’m not sure if that’s true. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider the Catechism infallible?
No.  The CCC may contain infallible teachings, but it itself ain't infallible..The only whole text that the Catholic Church deems infallible is its translation of the Holy Scriptures, the Vulgata... or is it the Nova Vulgata?  Wait, which edition?  Ah, forget it!
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2017, 02:51:20 AM »
Sharbel, there are many ways to answer what you said, but I will make use of a Biblical one - your opinion, if I understand it right, is essentially that no one is born in sin, that everyone has the Holy Spirit indwelling him since birth...
Since the emphasized text was never mentioned, though it's curious that someone who believes in the original sinfulness of human nature assumed it as necessary otherwise, what followed was irrelevant.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 02:53:02 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2017, 09:56:29 AM »

3. St. Irenaeus and St. Ephraim are absolutely clear that Mary always was in every way like Eve before the fall - only even purer and holier - and Her giving birth as She did shows how humanity would have been had our first mother never sinned. The Fathers call original sin the "stain of sin" and they call Her the Stainless one. The implication is evident. St. Proclus of Constantinople expressly says "As He created Her without stain of Her own, so He came forth from Her contracting no stain" an exact statement of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

You're claiming that God creates stained people? :o

No implication. "He made Him Who knew no sin to be sin for us." No need for the IC.
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How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #132 on: December 19, 2017, 09:31:56 AM »
The demons are often forced by God to confess the Truth, as we read in the Gospel of St. Mark.

Mk 3:11 And the unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him: and they cried, saying: 12Thou art the Son of God. And he strictly charged them that they should not make him known.

Ialmisry, the Angels are not stained; man is. Your argument is with Origen "our heavenly guides, the Apostles ordained even for infants because they knew there is even in infants the stain of sin" and with Carthage, the Creed etc. Since baptism is for the remission of sin, it follows that infants naturally contract the stain of original sin until they are supernaturally regenerated in baptism.

Vanyho, if infants need to be healed, of what are they actually healed in baptism? Not of the death of the body, but of the death of the soul, as that synod teaches, which death of the soul in them is called original sin. Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism.

And if being created in grace makes it impossible to sin, then how did Eve sin? In truth, Mary Immaculate never sinned and all Her works were most perfect, but She had always had a holy fear , as we read in the excerpt earlier, "then She was afraid that at the sound of Her beautiful voice" etc and this admirable humility and practice of striving to avoid the least sin throughout Her life kept Her sinless. One's will must be perfected by grace before sin becomes impossible to one, as it is to the Saints and Angels in heaven, who now can sin more, and to God by nature. As for any Pope or any man, he is a sinner and goes to confession like everyone else.

Porter, baptism is not just for "men and women old in sins" and when the Creed was promulgated in the fourth century, the vast majority of those receiving remission of sins in baptism were infants. The stain of original sin is the death of the soul. What is the meaning of the Holy Spirit saying to His Bride "Thou art all fair, My Love, and there is no Stain in Thee"? Mary is that blessed lily among which the thorns of original sin did never grow.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:34:35 AM by Xavier »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2017, 12:02:19 PM »
You certainly have a gift for twisting every word not only if Fathers but of other posters.

So now infants are not subject to bodily illness and weakness? Are you willing to stand by this as Catholic dogma?
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #134 on: December 19, 2017, 12:05:57 PM »
Did I say that? I said "Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism."

I am at a loss to understand how you got "infants are not subject to bodily illness and weakness" from that. It is their soul that was dead to grace because of Adam and is now reborn to life because of Christ. How did you get the part about bodily illness, I'm not following.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 12:06:14 PM by Xavier »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2017, 12:40:03 PM »
Did I say that? I said "Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism."

I am at a loss to understand how you got "infants are not subject to bodily illness and weakness" from that. It is their soul that was dead to grace because of Adam and is now reborn to life because of Christ. How did you get the part about bodily illness, I'm not following.

Yes, you did say that in response to Isa. But you made superficial and sophistical replies to all of us, so my concern is less for your understanding than for your soul. Holy baptism is a subject you should be willing to listen to seriously.
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #136 on: December 19, 2017, 01:10:06 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #137 on: December 19, 2017, 01:33:33 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #138 on: December 19, 2017, 01:51:52 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?
That is a very complex question, there is a difference between Grace and Grace, for example God's sustaining energy without which it is not possible to exist is different than His saving energy that leads to theosis and is different than his protecting energy.

For example a person may not be on the path of salvation but be perfectly protected by God's Grace.

@Xavier
Quote
The demons are often forced by God to confess the Truth, as we read in the Gospel of St. Mark.
And what about the cases when God is not forcing them ?
Quote
Vanyho, if infants need to be healed, of what are they actually healed in baptism? Not of the death of the body, but of the death of the soul, as that synod teaches, which death of the soul in them is called original sin. Infants are born with a soul dead to grace until they are vivified and receive supernatural life in Baptism.
A newborn is not guilty of any sins, the original sin is not something the baby did wrong, its something the baby inherited, so it is improper to say that the baby is guilty of sin even though its born with original sin.

Quote
And if being created in grace makes it impossible to sin, then how did Eve sin?
Eve was deceived, and when God gave her the opportunity to repent, she did not and instead blamed the snake, same with adam, he blamed the woman.

Notice however, the devil had no access to Eve's feelings or thoughts, he could not insert suggestions or feelings in her so he had to come to her as a snake and verbally mislead her.

So yes, apart from that small window of opportunity for the devil, it was absolutely not possible for Adam and Eve to sin, just as it is not possible for a sane person to eat his poop.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 01:55:49 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #139 on: December 19, 2017, 03:19:13 PM »
So yes, apart from that small window of opportunity for the devil, it was absolutely not possible for Adam and Eve to sin, just as it is not possible for a sane person to eat his poop.

The fact that they both sinned disproved this very notion. They sinned when they were tempted despite their original holiness. You are right in that Adam and Eve were deceived but even in deception there may be culpability. This is true for they knew that they were not to eat of the fruits of the Tree of knowledge, yet they did. In fact they even mentioned this to the serpent so they knew what they were doing was wrong. This is why what they did was a sin of which they were culpable resulting in them losing their sanctifying grace. Mortal sins (Sins which result in the loss of sanctifying grace) need culpability as a factor.

So as we can see our parents were made in grace, knew not to eat the fruits and still did. If grace reduces our ability to choose, then our parents could not have been said to be made with free will. So when you say the could not have sinned without an outside tempter, this insuantes that their will was not free and that only the devil can make it so for without him, the never could have chosen evil under your statement. This is seriously problematic.

Man as he was created could still have chosen evil. It was possible for our parents to sin. The Angels were made much like us in this respect. They were made good and with free will like man yet many of them chose evil and sinned against God. The reason we are given the chance of repentance and forgiveness for our sins while they are not is because unlike us, they had no tempter. They were fully, in and of themselves, responsible for their own sin. So grace does not destroy free will. Rather grace nourishes the will to do good. It increases the good but does not remedy the disorder in us. It makes it possible for us to resist our nature which is fallen. Man will be restored to his original holiness once he meets his meets his maker.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 03:31:52 PM by Wandile »
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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #140 on: December 19, 2017, 03:22:05 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.

No, God breathes life (physical) in them. They are born devoid of sanctifying grace (spiritual life). The grace of creation is a different kind of grace.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 03:22:46 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #141 on: December 19, 2017, 04:57:27 PM »
Quote
If grace reduces our ability to choose, then our parents could not have been said to be made with free will.
You are not paying attention to what i am saying, also free will is not exactly choosing good or evil.


Notice however, the devil had no access to Eve's feelings or thoughts, he could not insert suggestions or feelings in her so he had to come to her as a snake and verbally mislead her.

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #142 on: December 19, 2017, 05:15:24 PM »
Quote
If grace reduces our ability to choose, then our parents could not have been said to be made with free will.
You are not paying attention to what i am saying
If I’ve misunderstood please may you tell me where I have misunderstood you.

Quote
also free will is not exactly choosing good or evil.

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind. If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.

Quote
Notice however, the devil had no access to Eve's feelings or thoughts, he could not insert suggestions or feelings in her so he had to come to her as a snake and verbally mislead her.
This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.

Thus the Mother of God though Immaculately conceived (Made in the state as our parents at their creation) could still have sinned but she did not choose to and rather found true freedom in God aligning herself to him rather than bondage to the slavery of sin through choosing evil acts like our first parents did. The dogma does not in any way take away the merits of her sinless life but exalts her as the greatest amongst all men for our parents, made like her, did not achieve what she did.

This confirms that in God all things are made new and good again. The dogma explains and gives context the traditional appellation of Our Lord being the new Adam and The Mother of God the New Eve for unlike our first parents they remained pure and immaculate.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 05:25:56 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #143 on: December 19, 2017, 10:26:59 PM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.

No, God breathes life (physical) in them. They are born devoid of sanctifying grace (spiritual life). The grace of creation is a different kind of grace.

And then what is death -- if unbaptized infants die they die only physically, in the same way as they are according to you born only physically? After which they then of course also are damned only physically? And the Church can do nothing for the sick or weak, by that token, having a purely spiritual salvific function. Catholicism is very curious.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #144 on: December 20, 2017, 05:17:21 AM »
How can infants be born at all if they are completely dead to grace?

Satan breathes a kind of temporary life into them until the Catholic church allows God access via baptism. It's all very complicated, and true.

No, God breathes life (physical) in them. They are born devoid of sanctifying grace (spiritual life). The grace of creation is a different kind of grace.

And then what is death -- if unbaptized infants die they die only physically, in the same way as they are according to you born only physically?After which they then of course also are damned only physically?

The die physically. Theologicaly we have speculated that they do not go to heaven at some points in our history (Limbo of the infants), these days we hope God shows them mercy as infants but we do not know if God sends them to hell where the spiritually dead go.

Quote
And the Church can do nothing for the sick or weak, by that token, having a purely spiritual salvific function. Catholicism is very curious.
This follows no logic at all. We have doctors for that, physicians and scientists for that. The church builds hospitals, halfway houses, schools and centers for the disabled and mentally incapacitated amongst other things. The church, following her spiritual mandate, carries out acts of charity which incorporate both spiritual and some physical works.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 05:19:22 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #145 on: December 20, 2017, 12:49:49 PM »
This follows no logic at all.

You don't say.

Quote
We have doctors for that, physicians and scientists for that.

You're missing the point, but also making your church's theology seem even more barren than before.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #146 on: December 20, 2017, 01:33:05 PM »
Quote
So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind.
Without the tempter's deception it wouldn't have been possible for our parents to sin, they would have obeyed God perfectly.

Quote
If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.
Wrong. God did not create evil, and Adam and Eve couldn't choose evil, even the devil as a creation was not evil, he is however evil in his mission, that is - to get all of mankind condemned.

Quote
This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.
It has a bearing in this way: after the fall the devil gained the right to influence mankind from inside, and he does that to confuse & lead to peril, before that he couldn't do it because our parents had perfect grace or to say it in other words, they were walled with divine fire. They couldn't choose evil because they did not have that influence inside.

If you define free will strictly as choosing good and evil then we have a the next problem:
If you can infact choose and act upon evil with perfect grace and without the deceiver misleading you, does it follow that after the resurrection of the dead you have an eternity of time to make to an evil choice ? And when you do that, does it mean you get cast out from heaven again ? But then Christ's saints will not enjoy His inheritance forever....





« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 01:35:55 PM by Vanhyo »

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #147 on: December 20, 2017, 04:32:19 PM »
Quote
So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind.
Without the tempter's deception it wouldn't have been possible for our parents to sin, they would have obeyed God perfectly.
Impossible means they would not have had the ability to. This destroys their free will. If it’s is impossible to sin when made immaculate then the angels would not have fell for that would be impossible. Tradition makes plain how the angels fell yet they had no tempter and were made immaculate like our first parents. It is possible to sin even without a tempter. That was proved when one third of the angels sinned and fell because of that. This is because they had free will. For God does not force us to serve and worship him, we choose that. We can choose Him or reject Him. Some angels, even though made pure and immaculate, chose to reject God. So it is possible to to not obey God even though made immaculate but that results in a loss of your immaculate state through your sin.

Quote
Quote
If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.
Wrong. God did not create evil, and Adam and Eve couldn't choose evil, even the devil as a creation was not evil, he is however evil in his mission, that is - to get all of mankind condemned.
Your whole theology about evil is wrong. Yes God did not create evil. That is not because evil is a thing but rather because evil is the description of the lack of something. That is the lack of goodness which is God himself. It describes the separation of the creature from the Creator. That is why evil is not a thing but things are evil.

Thus the devil and the demons are evil because they are separated from God, they are devoid of goodness. That is why it was possible for them to choose evil, as in become separated from God, which resulted in their fall.

Our parent likewise could have done the same thing even without the need of tempter for like the angels, they have free will.

Quote
Quote
This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.
It has a bearing in this way: after the fall the devil gained the right to influence mankind from inside, and he does that to confuse & lead to peril, before that he couldn't do it because our parents had perfect grace or to say it in other words, they were walled with divine fire. They couldn't choose evil because they did not have that influence inside.

If you define free will strictly as choosing good and evil then we have a the next problem:
If you can infact choose and act upon evil with perfect grace and without the deceiver misleading you, does it follow that after the resurrection of the dead you have an eternity of time to make to an evil choice ? And when you do that, does it mean you get cast out from heaven again ? But then Christ's saints will not enjoy His inheritance forever....

I did not define it as strictly good and evil but it does include good and evil. That is fundemantal Christianity. Man will not fall again after the resurrection not because of being immaculate and pure and so (by your reasoning) deprived of the ability to choose evil. Rather it is because those who are resurrected to the Glory of God will not choose that because through their life they desired to unite their soul and will to God. They embrace the grace of God rather than reject it. This is the same reason the angels in heaven do not fall again. Those that chose God will not reject him for they have chosen to submit their will to him. That is their state of being.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 04:38:55 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #148 on: December 20, 2017, 08:12:23 PM »
Quote
So if for our parents, outside of the presence of the serpent tempting them, thus in and of themselves, it was impossible (not being able to) for them to sin, then their freedom of will was corrupted because part of your choice of action is to do evil deeds amongst other choices available to your mind.
Without the tempter's deception it wouldn't have been possible for our parents to sin, they would have obeyed God perfectly.

Quote
If they could not choose evil, the did not have free will. At least not the free will as understood in the Christian religion.
Wrong. God did not create evil, and Adam and Eve couldn't choose evil, even the devil as a creation was not evil, he is however evil in his mission, that is - to get all of mankind condemned.

Quote
This has no bearing honestly on free will and grace. The crux is that they did choose to go against God by eating from the Tree of Knowlege when they knew not to.
It has a bearing in this way: after the fall the devil gained the right to influence mankind from inside, and he does that to confuse & lead to peril, before that he couldn't do it because our parents had perfect grace or to say it in other words, they were walled with divine fire. They couldn't choose evil because they did not have that influence inside.

If you define free will strictly as choosing good and evil then we have a the next problem:
If you can infact choose and act upon evil with perfect grace and without the deceiver misleading you, does it follow that after the resurrection of the dead you have an eternity of time to make to an evil choice ? And when you do that, does it mean you get cast out from heaven again ? But then Christ's saints will not enjoy His inheritance forever....

Some deep perceptions here.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #149 on: December 20, 2017, 10:20:24 PM »
Theologicaly we have speculated that they do not go to heaven at some points in our history (Limbo of the infants), these days we hope God shows them mercy as infants but we do not know if God sends them to hell where the spiritually dead go.
A god who sends innocent children, whose only fault is his having created them, to where the spiritually dead go is not my god.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #150 on: December 21, 2017, 02:01:01 PM »
Quote
If it’s is impossible to sin when made immaculate then the angels would not have fell for that would be impossible. Tradition makes plain how the angels fell yet they had no tempter and were made immaculate like our first parents. It is possible to sin even without a tempter. That was proved when one third of the angels sinned and fell because of that. This is because they had free will. For God does not force us to serve and worship him, we choose that. We can choose Him or reject Him. Some angels, even though made pure and immaculate, chose to reject God. So it is possible to to not obey God even though made immaculate but that results in a loss of your immaculate state through your sin.
Finally you make a good argument, however this is not how it works. First, the information we have on this is very limited so i am afraid ill not be able to make a convincing point but ill try.

The fall of the angels and the fall of mankind is like a crossroad and a traffic light, if single vehicle break the rules and crosses the road during orange light, no one will be hurt, but if two vehicles decided to break the rules they will crash into one another and someone will get hurt.

Tradition tells us that when the first rank of angels fell, and the rest of the angels saw it, they humbled themselves and were saved, the devil and his angels however had another plan, if they can get everyone condemned, then they assumed that the good Lord will have no choice but to forgive everyone, so this way they can enter heaven without repentance. This is the mission of the devil, to condemn everyone.

In that sense, the current state of evil is a form of abnormality. The devil was too slothful and decided it will be easier to get everyone condemned than to repent and lets not forget man, who was sloppy and neglectent and because of that was fooled.

Two vehicles go on the crossroad on forbidden light because of neglectance and we have a crash.

Quote
Our parent likewise could have done the same thing even without the need of tempter for like the angels, they have free will.
I hope now you see why you are wrong.

Also before the fall, adam and eve had perfect grace, they had both, the image and the likeness. They didn't need asceticism as we do. In baptism we are restored to the image but the likeness is something we have to work on.

If the Mother of God was in the state of Eve from conception, this means:

1. She couldn't have lived ascetic life because She is already where She needs to be.
2. She couldn't be tempted by the devil, unless he appears to her physically and verbally attempt to mislead her.
3. No asceticism, no merits, its all a gift. Just like Eve who didn't have any merit for what she was made to be.

Also if the doctrine of the immaculate conception of the Mother of God is correct and Theotokos is like an analog for the Church, then the protestants were right, you don't need works because she didn't need works. But we see from history that the Church is suffering and struggling, fighting against sin. In before the fall, our parents did not need to fight against sin, there was no suffering and if it wasn't for the tempter they couldn't have sinned, at best they could become sloppy.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:13:42 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline biro

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #151 on: December 21, 2017, 03:11:19 PM »
I thought Satan was the tempter.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #152 on: December 21, 2017, 03:25:53 PM »
I thought Satan was the tempter.
Yes.

Did i express something poorly ?

Offline Wandile

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #153 on: December 22, 2017, 07:01:23 AM »
Theologicaly we have speculated that they do not go to heaven at some points in our history (Limbo of the infants), these days we hope God shows them mercy as infants but we do not know if God sends them to hell where the spiritually dead go.
A god who sends innocent children, whose only fault is his having created them, to where the spiritually dead go is not my god.

Well it is theological speculation after all. Just based on the scriptures and the necessity of baptism and the sacraments for salvation. Yet even the church understood its possible for God to save them. So hence we trust them to the mercy of God.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #154 on: December 22, 2017, 07:25:43 AM »
Finally you make a good argument

Lol the irony in this.

Quote
however this is not how it works. First, the information we have on this is very limited so i am afraid ill not be able to make a convincing point but ill try.
Well let’s see.

Quote
The fall of the angels and the fall of mankind is like a crossroad and a traffic light, if single vehicle break the rules and crosses the road during orange light, no one will be hurt, but if two vehicles decided to break the rules they will crash into one another and someone will get hurt.
This is currently happening as they tempt man on earth daily to sin.

Quote
Tradition tells us that when the first rank of angels fell, and the rest of the angels saw it, they humbled themselves and were saved, the devil and his angels however had another plan, if they can get everyone condemned, then they assumed that the good Lord will have no choice but to forgive everyone, so this way they can enter heaven without repentance. This is the mission of the devil, to condemn everyone.
Which tradition? I have never heard of this. Never mind the warped and flawed theology of this assertion that the creature could force the creator to submit to its will. That is blasphemy and completely misunderstands the justice and mercy of God. The reason the angels will never be redeemed is because of the very fact that they had no tempter. They chose evil in and of themselves. Man can be redeemed through the mercy of God because although he sins, he has a tempter so the blame is not totally on him.

Quote
In that sense, the current state of evil is a form of abnormality. The devil was too slothful and decided it will be easier to get everyone condemned than to repent and lets not forget man, who was sloppy and neglectent and because of that was fooled.
This is theological speculation and a poor attempt at that if I’m being honest. The demons will not repent not because of the sin of sloth, but because of their principle sin which is pride.

Quote
Two vehicles go on the crossroad on forbidden light because of neglectance and we have a crash.

Quote
Our parent likewise could have done the same thing even without the need of tempter for like the angels, they have free will.
I hope now you see why you are wrong.
No I actually don’t not because of inability to see but simply because you have done nothing to counter any of my points and used baseless and unrelated analogies with questionable theological speculations to formulate your reply. Your argument is severely lacking and does nothing to refute any point I made. You still haven’t explained how immaculate beings without a tempter fell because according to your whole argument against, the  Immacukate conception of the Mothe did God, that is an impossibility.

Quote
Also before the fall, adam and eve had perfect grace, they had both, the image and the likeness. They didn't need asceticism as we do. In baptism we are restored to the image but the likeness is something we have to work on.

If the Mother of God was in the state of Eve from conception, this means:

1. She couldn't have lived ascetic life because She is already where She needs to be.
2. She couldn't be tempted by the devil, unless he appears to her physically and verbally attempt to mislead her.
3. No asceticism, no merits, its all a gift. Just like Eve who didn't have any merit for what she was made to be

Simply nope, for your whole argument rests on a flawed premise which you yourself have not even validated. It’s just assumed to be correct despite me showing it to be in error and you haven’t responded to it but just danced around with analogies. In not a single point have you been able to explain how immaculate beings fell without a tempter.

Quote
Also if the doctrine of the immaculate conception of the Mother of God is correct and Theotokos is like an analog for the Church, then the protestants were right, you don't need works because she didn't need works.
I know you think you’re making a point, but you really aren’t. Her works was her life of obedience to God.

Quote
But we see from history that the Church is suffering and struggling, fighting against sin. In before the fall, our parents did not need to fight against sin, there was no suffering and if it wasn't for the tempter they couldn't have sinned, at best they could become sloppy.

Fighting against sin is the fight between man and his fallen nature. The church suffers because her human element is fallen. She is pure and holy because of God and His sacraments.

They couldn’t have sinned? How did the angels sin? Again you just assumed things without proving their truth. You’re honestly just repeating the same unproved point over and over again. You still haven’t provided a single counter point to anything I have said.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 07:37:03 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #155 on: December 23, 2017, 04:11:37 AM »
Quote
Lol the irony in this.
Quote
No I actually don’t not because of inability to see but simply because you have done nothing to counter any of my points and used baseless and unrelated analogies with questionable theological speculations to formulate your reply. Your argument is severely lacking and does nothing to refute any point I made.
Quote
Simply nope, for your whole argument rests on a flawed premise which you yourself have not even validated. It’s just assumed to be correct despite me showing it to be in error
Quote
I know you think you’re making a point, but you really aren’t.
Quote
Again you just assumed things without proving their truth.
Quote
You’re honestly just repeating the same unproved point over and over again.
Quote
You still haven’t provided a single counter point to anything I have said.

Well then, i suppose you are Mr.Irrefutabro
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 04:12:31 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #156 on: December 23, 2017, 06:11:36 AM »
Quote
Lol the irony in this.
Quote
No I actually don’t not because of inability to see but simply because you have done nothing to counter any of my points and used baseless and unrelated analogies with questionable theological speculations to formulate your reply. Your argument is severely lacking and does nothing to refute any point I made.
Quote
Simply nope, for your whole argument rests on a flawed premise which you yourself have not even validated. It’s just assumed to be correct despite me showing it to be in error
Quote
I know you think you’re making a point, but you really aren’t.
Quote
Again you just assumed things without proving their truth.
Quote
You’re honestly just repeating the same unproved point over and over again.
Quote
You still haven’t provided a single counter point to anything I have said.

Well then, i suppose you are Mr.Irrefutabro


Let us not descend into childishness. This is not a counter argument.

You have not explained how immaculate beings sinned when, according to you, that is impossible.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:12:44 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #157 on: December 24, 2017, 11:00:08 AM »
Vanyho, your explanation of original sin is on the mark. We Catholics would almost agree with you; for you state "original sin is not something the baby did wrong, its something the baby inherited" and this is correct. Thus St. Thomas that original sin is only the privation of sanctifying grace and does not have the character of fault in any person but only an inherited defect of nature; thus also the Catechism "original sin does not have the character of personal fault in any of Adam's descendants, although it is proper to every person". So, now my question to you, and also to Porter, what is the immediate ontological difference between a Baptized child and an unbaptized child? You cannot say death of the body is already taken away, immortality is only given at the end; so what is instantaneously taken away by Holy Baptism? Precisely, the death of the soul i.e. the privation of original grace is taken away, and infants are sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit, becoming a new creation in Christ, after Baptism. Do we agree thus far? Second question, do you agree John the Baptist was thus sanctified and cleansed from original sin in his mother's womb? If yes, with original sin cleared, and the means of sanctification from it made plain, it remains only to show that the All-Holy Virgin Mary, the Most Holy Theotokos, the Stainless and Sinless Mother of God was cleansed even before him, i.e. at Her conception. Btw, what you distinguish as "grace and grace" in two different senses, we would distinguish as nature and grace. And that's the same distinction St. John Damascene uses.

1. "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape"

Here, we have a clear and explicit testimony that the Conception of the Immaculate Virgin was a product of the grace of the Holy Spirit. in other words, She was sanctified by grace in Her conception.

2. Many other testimonies could be and have been given, but we will take just one from an anti-Latin Greek Patriarch, to show clearly and incontrovertibly how solid the Tradition - within the Greek Church, and expressed in its own terms - is that the All-Holy Panagia, the Spotless and Stainless Ark, was sanctified in Her conception.  “was wholly sanctified from the very first moment of her conception (ole egiasmene en aute te sullepsei) when her body was formed and when her soul was united to her body ... As for the Panaghia, who is there who does not know that she is pure and immaculate, that she was a spotless instrument, sanctified in her conception and her birth, as befits one who is to contain the One whom nothing can contain?” (Ref: Lukaris, hom. in Dormit and hom. in Nativ., Cod. 39 of the Metochion, fol. 93)

3. A third testimony is from St. Andrew of Crete, perhaps you can argue this shows only an Immaculate Birth and not an Immaculate Conception, but at the least it is implied, and so at least, all who revere the Tradition of the Fathers should believe in the Immaculate Birth of Mary. "Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"

This is so clear, Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, greater and more glorious than the first; human nature in Her Person recovers all its ancient privileges; She is the perfect model of theosis; we could say in Her the Church is already the All-Holy One, etc. Nature is reformed, all creation is made anew; the transformation is truly divine and the second creation begins with Her.

Merry Christmas, all.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 11:10:37 AM by Xavier »

Offline Wandile

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #158 on: December 24, 2017, 11:43:12 AM »
Merry Christmas to everybody. May our Good Lord be with all of us during this Christmas and shower many blessings over us and our families and continue to bless us now and into the new year. :)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 11:47:07 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #159 on: January 05, 2018, 05:45:02 PM »
Vanyho, your explanation of original sin is on the mark. We Catholics would almost agree with you; for you state "original sin is not something the baby did wrong, its something the baby inherited" and this is correct. Thus St. Thomas that original sin is only the privation of sanctifying grace and does not have the character of fault in any person but only an inherited defect of nature; thus also the Catechism "original sin does not have the character of personal fault in any of Adam's descendants, although it is proper to every person". So, now my question to you, and also to Porter, what is the immediate ontological difference between a Baptized child and an unbaptized child? You cannot say death of the body is already taken away, immortality is only given at the end; so what is instantaneously taken away by Holy Baptism? Precisely, the death of the soul i.e. the privation of original grace is taken away, and infants are sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit, becoming a new creation in Christ, after Baptism. Do we agree thus far? Second question, do you agree John the Baptist was thus sanctified and cleansed from original sin in his mother's womb? If yes, with original sin cleared, and the means of sanctification from it made plain, it remains only to show that the All-Holy Virgin Mary, the Most Holy Theotokos, the Stainless and Sinless Mother of God was cleansed even before him, i.e. at Her conception. Btw, what you distinguish as "grace and grace" in two different senses, we would distinguish as nature and grace. And that's the same distinction St. John Damascene uses.

1. "Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape"

Here, we have a clear and explicit testimony that the Conception of the Immaculate Virgin was a product of the grace of the Holy Spirit. in other words, She was sanctified by grace in Her conception.

2. Many other testimonies could be and have been given, but we will take just one from an anti-Latin Greek Patriarch, to show clearly and incontrovertibly how solid the Tradition - within the Greek Church, and expressed in its own terms - is that the All-Holy Panagia, the Spotless and Stainless Ark, was sanctified in Her conception.  “was wholly sanctified from the very first moment of her conception (ole egiasmene en aute te sullepsei) when her body was formed and when her soul was united to her body ... As for the Panaghia, who is there who does not know that she is pure and immaculate, that she was a spotless instrument, sanctified in her conception and her birth, as befits one who is to contain the One whom nothing can contain?” (Ref: Lukaris, hom. in Dormit and hom. in Nativ., Cod. 39 of the Metochion, fol. 93)

3. A third testimony is from St. Andrew of Crete, perhaps you can argue this shows only an Immaculate Birth and not an Immaculate Conception, but at the least it is implied, and so at least, all who revere the Tradition of the Fathers should believe in the Immaculate Birth of Mary. "Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"

This is so clear, Mary is the beginning of the new creation of God, greater and more glorious than the first; human nature in Her Person recovers all its ancient privileges; She is the perfect model of theosis; we could say in Her the Church is already the All-Holy One, etc. Nature is reformed, all creation is made anew; the transformation is truly divine and the second creation begins with Her.

Merry Christmas, all.

1. Babies are not separated from God.
2. The New Creation begins with Christ.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2018, 05:47:34 AM »
1. Babies are not separated from God.

"For this also the Church had a Tradition from the apostles, to give baptism even to infants. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were given knew that there is in all persons the natural stains of sin which must be washed away"

2. The New Creation begins with Christ.

"humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands ... this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2018, 02:35:30 PM »
1. Babies are not separated from God.

"For this also the Church had a Tradition from the apostles, to give baptism even to infants. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were given knew that there is in all persons the natural stains of sin which must be washed away"

2. The New Creation begins with Christ.

"humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands ... this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation"

1. Babies are not separated from God.
2. The New Creation begins with Christ.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Mary's lack of birth pangs proves Her absolute sinlessness.
« Reply #162 on: January 15, 2018, 03:41:22 PM »
Its has been stated " As there was no physical pleasure in conception there was no physical pain in birthing Christ".