Author Topic: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear  (Read 3845 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,602
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2018, 10:13:46 PM »
Diagnosed cases fitting the definition of Autism from 1975 to 2009.

Fixed it for you.r

So just ignore the link above then? The one from the cdc.
Austism is on the rise, that isnt debatable. Question is whats causing it? Vaccines, additives, drugs? Its better to walk a 5k, and put a magnet on your car, than to ask WHY?

Doctors and scientists are always asking why. It's their job. It's also their job to look at all the facts, all the evidence, and be objective and dispassionate in their conclusions.

Arachne is dead right in the correction of your post. I don't know how old you are, Rubricnigel, but some of us are old enough to know what we now call autism went by different names in the past. Problem children. Uncontrollable delinquency. Etc. Same goes for other conditions like hysteria. Shell shock. Nowadays we call it PTSD. The conditions are the same, the names and hopefully the understanding of them changes, for the better.

I'm sure you're also far too young to have known what life was like before vaccinations were available for diseases like polio. I bet you've never seen kids with calipers on their legs, like I did when I was at school. The lucky ones only needed crutches. Nor would you have seen hospital wards full of rows of iron lungs. Many spent the rest of their days in them. Or the terror come the heat of summer, where a water-borne disease like polio could strike and devastate communities, before Salk and Sabin's work came through.

Ever seen a baby in the grip of whooping cough? Blinded by its mother's rubella? Seen what cervical cancer or Hep B can do? Bet you haven't. Go spend some time in a hospital or hospice. Talk to the doctors, nurses and loved ones of those afflicted with these, and other preventable diseases. Spend some time with folks ravaged by such illness. If you can't, then google these things, instead of the garbage sites you've linked to. You might learn something useful.



 
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2018, 10:20:19 PM »
That part about Hep B "only given earlier" simply isn't true at the hospital we were at. We were compelled to fill out a form, in advance, declining the vaccine.

And no surprise. The CDC recommends that "all babies should get the first shot of hepatitis B vaccine shortly after birth."  (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/child/hepb.html)

Totally different countries and practices, evidently.



Vaccinations under 8 weeks of age have an elevated chance of failure, because a newborn's system is not mature enough to process them. HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected, in which case there's a lot more at stake than a chance of autism.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/childhood-vaccines-timeline/

Yep. Filing this under 'incorrect use'.

Which means docs in the US are needlessly putting infants at risk of developmental problems, given evidence regarding the HepB vaccine.

There is no evidence.  Correlation does not equate causation.  Until studies can confirm this association, you can’t call it “evidence”.

1) Yes you can call it evidence. It's practically the book definition of it.
2) You must've missed the cites I posted above. Those articles included theory. For instance, the physiological link between Hg and developmental problems appear to be well known. Don't take my word for it ... I offered cites to back it up.  I'm just a social scientist! :p
3) But thanks for the platitude anyway! "Causation doesn't equal correlation." I'll need to write that one down, lol.

Causation always implies correlation, but correlation does not always imply causation.  Being Egyptian is correlated with a high rate of Hepatitis C.  “Evidence” shows that, according to your definition about it.  In fact, based on my race, there is more of a chance I have hepatitis C than your “research” suggests about autism.  Does that mean being Egyptian causes Hepatitis C?

Im glad you like the platitude, even though you’re stating it incorrectly.  This is proof that you need to spend time know how research is done and how to interpret its conclusions accurately.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 10:22:56 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,660
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2018, 10:30:33 PM »
Diagnosed cases fitting the definition of Autism from 1975 to 2009.

Fixed it for you.r

So just ignore the link above then? The one from the cdc.
Austism is on the rise, that isnt debatable. Question is whats causing it? Vaccines, additives, drugs? Its better to walk a 5k, and put a magnet on your car, than to ask WHY?

Doctors and scientists are always asking why. It's their job. It's also their job to look at all the facts, all the evidence, and be objective and dispassionate in their conclusions.

Arachne is dead right in the correction of your post. I don't know how old you are, Rubricnigel, but some of us are old enough to know what we now call autism went by different names in the past. Problem children. Uncontrollable delinquency. Etc. Same goes for other conditions like hysteria. Shell shock. Nowadays we call it PTSD. The conditions are the same, the names and hopefully the understanding of them changes, for the better.

I'm sure you're also far too young to have known what life was like before vaccinations were available for diseases like polio. I bet you've never seen kids with calipers on their legs, like I did when I was at school. The lucky ones only needed crutches. Nor would you have seen hospital wards full of rows of iron lungs. Many spent the rest of their days in them. Or the terror come the heat of summer, where a water-borne disease like polio could strike and devastate communities, before Salk and Sabin's work came through.

Ever seen a baby in the grip of whooping cough? Blinded by its mother's rubella? Seen what cervical cancer or Hep B can do? Bet you haven't. Go spend some time in a hospital or hospice. Talk to the doctors, nurses and loved ones of those afflicted with these, and other preventable diseases. Spend some time with folks ravaged by such illness. If you can't, then google these things, instead of the garbage sites you've linked to. You might learn something useful.

Amen.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2018, 10:53:59 PM »
That part about Hep B "only given earlier" simply isn't true at the hospital we were at. We were compelled to fill out a form, in advance, declining the vaccine.

And no surprise. The CDC recommends that "all babies should get the first shot of hepatitis B vaccine shortly after birth."  (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/child/hepb.html)

Totally different countries and practices, evidently.



Vaccinations under 8 weeks of age have an elevated chance of failure, because a newborn's system is not mature enough to process them. HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected, in which case there's a lot more at stake than a chance of autism.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/childhood-vaccines-timeline/

Yep. Filing this under 'incorrect use'.

Which means docs in the US are needlessly putting infants at risk of developmental problems, given evidence regarding the HepB vaccine.

There is no evidence.  Correlation does not equate causation.  Until studies can confirm this association, you can’t call it “evidence”.

1) Yes you can call it evidence. It's practically the book definition of it.
2) You must've missed the cites I posted above. Those articles included theory. For instance, the physiological link between Hg and developmental problems appear to be well known. Don't take my word for it ... I offered cites to back it up.  I'm just a social scientist! :p
3) But thanks for the platitude anyway! "Causation doesn't equal correlation." I'll need to write that one down, lol.

Causation always implies correlation, but correlation does not always imply causation.  Being Egyptian is correlated with a high rate of Hepatitis C.  “Evidence” shows that, according to your definition about it.  In fact, based on my race, there is more of a chance I have hepatitis C than your “research” suggests about autism.  Does that mean being Egyptian causes Hepatitis C?

Im glad you like the platitude, even though you’re stating it incorrectly.  This is proof that you need to spend time know how research is done and how to interpret its conclusions accurately.

Yep, nailed me on that mistake. Typing with a phone, bound to happen. Still can't deny that the research I cited includes theoretical links between HepB vaccine and autism/hyperkinetic disorders.

Thanks again, though, for the tedious description of the platitude you quoted and I misquoted!

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2018, 12:02:00 AM »
I'm taking a deep breathe here, and reviewed the links you sent.  I apologize for jumping at you.  These look like valid studies.

Now, answering a previous concern, why we give Hep B vaccines at birth.  The reason why Hep B is given at birth is that it is one of the extremely few vaccines to show to have some efficacy of an antibody response in neonates.  And so most US organizations, including the CDC and AAP, highly recommend it (if the American Academy of Pediatricians recommend it, it would be hard for me to go against their expertise).  The UK may have a different schedule, but based on research, we find that Hep B does in fact cause a antibody response even at birth.

With that said, so far, the papers I am reading given by you is saying that the evidence is suggestive, not conclusive.  In order to test this, we need to engage in prospective studies.  Furthermore, the papers seem to also suggest that the problem is not the vaccine, but thimerosal.

Soooooooo....guess what?  Good news!!!! There are in fact thimerosal-free Hep B vaccines.  So the research also suggests there should be no reason for you NOT to get the Hep B vaccine for your newborn if it is preservative free.

Edit:  Based on the UK schedule, they do recommend Hep B vaccine at birth IF the mother has Hep B.  The US decided that it is effective to just give it at birth anyway.  And again, someone mentioned the Japanese Vaccine schedule.  They, with the US, recommend the vaccine at birth.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 12:12:40 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2018, 12:41:25 AM »
I'm going to provide two links, one from the FDA and one from the CDC. 

https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#bib
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/publications.html

This is the literature on thimerosal that seems to suggest there is NO association between thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders.  So, I do not know why some papers suggest it.

Furthermore, studies have also shown we get more mercury from tuna and salmon than from vaccines, and it's not the safe kind of mercury either.  But there is something called a "safe limit", which is an actual thing in our environment today.

So, if you are worried about thimerosal, the only vaccine that has it is the flu vaccine.  To avoid the Hep B vaccine is nonsensical because it was never about the Hep B vaccine.  It was about thimerosal.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 12:42:41 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,472
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2018, 04:17:51 AM »
Diagnosed cases fitting the definition of Autism from 1975 to 2009.

Fixed it for you.r

So just ignore the link above then? The one from the cdc.
Austism is on the rise, that isnt debatable. Question is whats causing it? Vaccines, additives, drugs? Its better to walk a 5k, and put a magnet on your car, than to ask WHY?

Autism was defined in 1943. Do you really believe there were no autistic people before then? They were just called, depending on the severity of their case, 'idiots', 'morons', 'soft in the head', 'disturbed', 'just a little touched', or 'problem children'. Depending on where they lived and what means their families possessed, they would end up working simple manual jobs (like tending sheep or sweeping streets), ridiculed as 'village idiots', kept locked up in the house like dirty secrets, or sent away to asylums.

What your graph actually shows is that, over the decades, a lot more doctors became knowledgeable of and qualified to diagnose autism, and a lot more people acquired access to such healthcare and had their special need identified.

Looking into what's injected into the food you eat would be much more constructive direction for your worries, and would actually explain why certain disorders are on the rise.

But hey, if you believe that it's better to end up with a dead child than an autistic one, just come out and say so, LOL.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox ~

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2018, 09:07:47 AM »
I'm going to provide two links, one from the FDA and one from the CDC. 

https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#bib
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/publications.html

This is the literature on thimerosal that seems to suggest there is NO association between thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders.  So, I do not know why some papers suggest it.

Furthermore, studies have also shown we get more mercury from tuna and salmon than from vaccines, and it's not the safe kind of mercury either.  But there is something called a "safe limit", which is an actual thing in our environment today.

So, if you are worried about thimerosal, the only vaccine that has it is the flu vaccine.  To avoid the Hep B vaccine is nonsensical because it was never about the Hep B vaccine.  It was about thimerosal.

Hey,

Here's where the CDC says thimerosol doesn't cause autism. This is posted at the CDC today; I didn't grab this from the Wayback Machine.  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html

And here's where 2013 study (there are many more) -- which is available at the NIH web site -- says thimerosol may cause autism (in some populations). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3774468/

Crazy, right? Who to believe?

Actually, minasoliman, your responses are helpfully illustrative of a bigger problem in medicine.

Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

That's when you come in with your platitude and 'tude.  At this point, notice how it's the docs who are making the sweeping, general assertions, while I'm offering evidence to support my limited claims?

(You even insult me ... that's fine  ... I'll remember the next time I serve as an outside rep on a microbiology dissertation committee. Med students who get joint PhD/MBA degrees have to have a business school faculty sign off on their work. Sometimes, that's me!)

And then, you cap it off with a condescending apology, a glib restatement of what I'd already said -- it's mercury after all, by golly! -- and the car-salesman-like pitch for a thimerosol-free HepB vaccine. You may not know the lit, mina, but you evidently know your way around the PDR. Typical MD, amiright?

Folks, stuff like this is why patients don't trust physicians.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:11:30 AM by Rambam »

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,472
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2018, 09:29:00 AM »
Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

All vaccines are created to fight disease. Some work better than others; the Salk formula of the polio vaccine is quite inferior to the currently used Sabin one, and one day a better one may be developed. It may be needed sooner than later. The job of scientific researchers is to keep improving on what is currently in use. We do as well as we can now, and when we know better, we will do better. Isn't science grand?

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

The 'overboard and incorrect assertion' is the NHS policy stated in the link I provided. Hep B is considered a specialist vaccine that's not necessary for everyone.

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

I called the implementation of certain vaccines potentially incorrect; if you do it one way and get a lot of problems and others do it another way and don't get the same problems, it's a lot more likely that you're doing it wrong than the other chaps.

Being under a lot of pressure to make money (for big pharma, for insurance firms, for yourself) doesn't necessarily make you greedy, but it definitely makes you rather discombobulated.

Next time try less fun and more comprehension in your reading.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:31:23 AM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox ~

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2018, 09:35:10 AM »
Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

All vaccines are created to fight disease. Some work better than others; the Salk formula of the polio vaccine is quite inferior to the currently used Sabin one, and one day a better one may be developed. It may be needed sooner than later. The job of scientific researchers is to keep improving on what is currently in use. We do as well as we can now, and when we know better, we will do better. Isn't science grand?

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

The 'overboard and incorrect assertion' is the NHS policy stated in the link I provided. Which also states that all babies do receive the HepB vaccine, just not at birth.

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

I called the implementation of certain vaccines potentially incorrect; if you do it one way and get a lot of problems and others do it another way and don't get the same problems, it's a lot more likely that you're doing it wrong than the other chaps.

Being under a lot of pressure to make money (for big pharma, for insurance firms, for yourself) doesn't necessarily make you greedy, but it definitely makes you rather discombobulated.

Next time try less fun and more comprehension in your reading.

Meh. Weak post. You like that "work on your reading comprehension" line, don't you? That's your go-to OC.net gig.

I know what science is for. What I don't like is the whiff of ideology I detect in your and mina's posts. And the obvious unfamiliarity with the literature.

But that's what one gets for mixing it up with MDs. It's like talking to Jiffy Lube techs about engine design.

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,472
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2018, 09:44:00 AM »
Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

All vaccines are created to fight disease. Some work better than others; the Salk formula of the polio vaccine is quite inferior to the currently used Sabin one, and one day a better one may be developed. It may be needed sooner than later. The job of scientific researchers is to keep improving on what is currently in use. We do as well as we can now, and when we know better, we will do better. Isn't science grand?

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

The 'overboard and incorrect assertion' is the NHS policy stated in the link I provided. Which also states that all babies do receive the HepB vaccine, just not at birth.

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

I called the implementation of certain vaccines potentially incorrect; if you do it one way and get a lot of problems and others do it another way and don't get the same problems, it's a lot more likely that you're doing it wrong than the other chaps.

Being under a lot of pressure to make money (for big pharma, for insurance firms, for yourself) doesn't necessarily make you greedy, but it definitely makes you rather discombobulated.

Next time try less fun and more comprehension in your reading.

Meh. Weak post. You like that "work on your reading comprehension" line, don't you? That's your go-to OC.net gig.

I'm an English teacher. The red pen reaction kicks in reflexively. Don't like it, feel free to play elsewhere.

I know what science is for. What I don't like is the whiff of ideology I detect in your and mina's posts. And the obvious unfamiliarity with the literature.

I don't like the stench of pseudoscience the anti-vaxxer crowd is peddling. Nor Typhoid Marys either.

But that's what one gets for mixing it up with MDs. It's like talking to Jiffy Lube techs about engine design.

Cry me a river of woe. Oh so much woe.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox ~

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2018, 10:09:43 AM »
Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

All vaccines are created to fight disease. Some work better than others; the Salk formula of the polio vaccine is quite inferior to the currently used Sabin one, and one day a better one may be developed. It may be needed sooner than later. The job of scientific researchers is to keep improving on what is currently in use. We do as well as we can now, and when we know better, we will do better. Isn't science grand?

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

The 'overboard and incorrect assertion' is the NHS policy stated in the link I provided. Which also states that all babies do receive the HepB vaccine, just not at birth.

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

I called the implementation of certain vaccines potentially incorrect; if you do it one way and get a lot of problems and others do it another way and don't get the same problems, it's a lot more likely that you're doing it wrong than the other chaps.

Being under a lot of pressure to make money (for big pharma, for insurance firms, for yourself) doesn't necessarily make you greedy, but it definitely makes you rather discombobulated.

Next time try less fun and more comprehension in your reading.

Meh. Weak post. You like that "work on your reading comprehension" line, don't you? That's your go-to OC.net gig.

I'm an English teacher. The red pen reaction kicks in reflexively. Don't like it, feel free to play elsewhere.

I know what science is for. What I don't like is the whiff of ideology I detect in your and mina's posts. And the obvious unfamiliarity with the literature.

I don't like the stench of pseudoscience the anti-vaxxer crowd is peddling. Nor Typhoid Marys either.

But that's what one gets for mixing it up with MDs. It's like talking to Jiffy Lube techs about engine design.

Cry me a river of woe. Oh so much woe.

You're not a physician? Funny. Sorry, I just presumed you could access the scholarly citations I posted. You know, cause to know science, you have to read science. You're more like a science fanboy. You like to use the word science, but don't really know your way around an ANOVA table. Got it!   ;D



Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,472
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2018, 10:21:44 AM »
Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

All vaccines are created to fight disease. Some work better than others; the Salk formula of the polio vaccine is quite inferior to the currently used Sabin one, and one day a better one may be developed. It may be needed sooner than later. The job of scientific researchers is to keep improving on what is currently in use. We do as well as we can now, and when we know better, we will do better. Isn't science grand?

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

The 'overboard and incorrect assertion' is the NHS policy stated in the link I provided. Which also states that all babies do receive the HepB vaccine, just not at birth.

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

I called the implementation of certain vaccines potentially incorrect; if you do it one way and get a lot of problems and others do it another way and don't get the same problems, it's a lot more likely that you're doing it wrong than the other chaps.

Being under a lot of pressure to make money (for big pharma, for insurance firms, for yourself) doesn't necessarily make you greedy, but it definitely makes you rather discombobulated.

Next time try less fun and more comprehension in your reading.

Meh. Weak post. You like that "work on your reading comprehension" line, don't you? That's your go-to OC.net gig.

I'm an English teacher. The red pen reaction kicks in reflexively. Don't like it, feel free to play elsewhere.

I know what science is for. What I don't like is the whiff of ideology I detect in your and mina's posts. And the obvious unfamiliarity with the literature.

I don't like the stench of pseudoscience the anti-vaxxer crowd is peddling. Nor Typhoid Marys either.

But that's what one gets for mixing it up with MDs. It's like talking to Jiffy Lube techs about engine design.

Cry me a river of woe. Oh so much woe.

You're not a physician? Funny. Sorry, I just presumed you could access the scholarly citations I posted. You know, cause to know science, you have to read science. You're more like a science fanboy. You like to use the word science, but don't really know your way around an ANOVA table. Got it!   ;D

The citations were supposed to be accessible by physicians only? Funny, they loaded up just fine.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, actually. You're not a scientist either, so you're fanboying every bit as hard as you claim I am. You just don't seem to parse the meaning of what others are writing.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox ~

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2018, 10:44:54 AM »
Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

All vaccines are created to fight disease. Some work better than others; the Salk formula of the polio vaccine is quite inferior to the currently used Sabin one, and one day a better one may be developed. It may be needed sooner than later. The job of scientific researchers is to keep improving on what is currently in use. We do as well as we can now, and when we know better, we will do better. Isn't science grand?

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

The 'overboard and incorrect assertion' is the NHS policy stated in the link I provided. Which also states that all babies do receive the HepB vaccine, just not at birth.

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

I called the implementation of certain vaccines potentially incorrect; if you do it one way and get a lot of problems and others do it another way and don't get the same problems, it's a lot more likely that you're doing it wrong than the other chaps.

Being under a lot of pressure to make money (for big pharma, for insurance firms, for yourself) doesn't necessarily make you greedy, but it definitely makes you rather discombobulated.

Next time try less fun and more comprehension in your reading.

Meh. Weak post. You like that "work on your reading comprehension" line, don't you? That's your go-to OC.net gig.

I'm an English teacher. The red pen reaction kicks in reflexively. Don't like it, feel free to play elsewhere.

I know what science is for. What I don't like is the whiff of ideology I detect in your and mina's posts. And the obvious unfamiliarity with the literature.

I don't like the stench of pseudoscience the anti-vaxxer crowd is peddling. Nor Typhoid Marys either.

But that's what one gets for mixing it up with MDs. It's like talking to Jiffy Lube techs about engine design.

Cry me a river of woe. Oh so much woe.

You're not a physician? Funny. Sorry, I just presumed you could access the scholarly citations I posted. You know, cause to know science, you have to read science. You're more like a science fanboy. You like to use the word science, but don't really know your way around an ANOVA table. Got it!   ;D

The citations were supposed to be accessible by physicians only? Funny, they loaded up just fine.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, actually. You're not a scientist either, so you're fanboying every bit as hard as you claim I am. You just don't seem to parse the meaning of what others are writing.

In reply 52, I indicate that I'm a business professor who has served on dissertation committees of microbiology students seeking joint PhD/MBA degrees. I make science, and I also make scientists. That's a privilege afforded to PhDs working at research universities.

I've made no claim in this thread that wasn't accompanied by a supportive journal citation. I have also made very limited claims. You, on the other hand, have said "No vaccines are bad." That statement comes from ideology, not research. It's an unsubstantiated belief. Beliefs =/= science.

You ought to stick to challenging the wackadoodle nonsense that Rubricnigel was selling. The rest of it is over your head. What's worse, the knee-jerk ideology you've peddled here makes the real researchers look bad. They, too, offer limited, reserved claims. Not sweeping generalizations.


Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,472
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2018, 11:01:40 AM »
Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

All vaccines are created to fight disease. Some work better than others; the Salk formula of the polio vaccine is quite inferior to the currently used Sabin one, and one day a better one may be developed. It may be needed sooner than later. The job of scientific researchers is to keep improving on what is currently in use. We do as well as we can now, and when we know better, we will do better. Isn't science grand?

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

The 'overboard and incorrect assertion' is the NHS policy stated in the link I provided. Which also states that all babies do receive the HepB vaccine, just not at birth.

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

I called the implementation of certain vaccines potentially incorrect; if you do it one way and get a lot of problems and others do it another way and don't get the same problems, it's a lot more likely that you're doing it wrong than the other chaps.

Being under a lot of pressure to make money (for big pharma, for insurance firms, for yourself) doesn't necessarily make you greedy, but it definitely makes you rather discombobulated.

Next time try less fun and more comprehension in your reading.

Meh. Weak post. You like that "work on your reading comprehension" line, don't you? That's your go-to OC.net gig.

I'm an English teacher. The red pen reaction kicks in reflexively. Don't like it, feel free to play elsewhere.

I know what science is for. What I don't like is the whiff of ideology I detect in your and mina's posts. And the obvious unfamiliarity with the literature.

I don't like the stench of pseudoscience the anti-vaxxer crowd is peddling. Nor Typhoid Marys either.

But that's what one gets for mixing it up with MDs. It's like talking to Jiffy Lube techs about engine design.

Cry me a river of woe. Oh so much woe.

You're not a physician? Funny. Sorry, I just presumed you could access the scholarly citations I posted. You know, cause to know science, you have to read science. You're more like a science fanboy. You like to use the word science, but don't really know your way around an ANOVA table. Got it!   ;D

The citations were supposed to be accessible by physicians only? Funny, they loaded up just fine.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, actually. You're not a scientist either, so you're fanboying every bit as hard as you claim I am. You just don't seem to parse the meaning of what others are writing.

In reply 52, I indicate that I'm a business professor who has served on dissertation committees of microbiology students seeking joint PhD/MBA degrees. I make science, and I also make scientists. That's a privilege afforded to PhDs working at research universities.

Putting a signature on a document doesn't make a scientist. They make themselves through their own work; you're just the bureaucracy they have to put up with.

I've made no claim in this thread that wasn't accompanied by a supportive journal citation. I have also made very limited claims. You, on the other hand, have said "No vaccines are bad." That statement comes from ideology, not research. It's an unsubstantiated belief. Beliefs =/= science.

You're welcome to disprove that claim. With citations and all.

You ought to stick to challenging the wackadoodle nonsense that Rubricnigel was selling. The rest of it is over your head. What's worse, the knee-jerk ideology you've peddled here makes the real researchers look bad. They, too, offer limited, reserved claims. Not sweeping generalizations.

I doubt I have what it takes to make real researchers look bad. They have bigger fish to fry. You, on the other hand, would look better if you hadn't misunderstood every single of my points you attempted to mock.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox ~

Offline peacenprayer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 201
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2018, 12:55:00 PM »
Chemistry is an amazing thing. You can take thing that on thier own are dangerous and combining them with other things create thngs tat safe . What a beautiful creation the Lord has and should be glorfied for this.
Besides... I might not know what is the vaccines, but I sure know whats in smallpox.
It kill
Ran away to wear a black night gown and a funny hat. Pray for me!

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,792
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2018, 12:58:53 PM »
St. Luke and St. Pantaleimon were doctors.

Nobody has a problem with that.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 12:59:09 PM by biro »
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2018, 02:33:06 PM »
I'm going to provide two links, one from the FDA and one from the CDC. 

https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#bib
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/publications.html

This is the literature on thimerosal that seems to suggest there is NO association between thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders.  So, I do not know why some papers suggest it.

Furthermore, studies have also shown we get more mercury from tuna and salmon than from vaccines, and it's not the safe kind of mercury either.  But there is something called a "safe limit", which is an actual thing in our environment today.

So, if you are worried about thimerosal, the only vaccine that has it is the flu vaccine.  To avoid the Hep B vaccine is nonsensical because it was never about the Hep B vaccine.  It was about thimerosal.

Hey,

Here's where the CDC says thimerosol doesn't cause autism. This is posted at the CDC today; I didn't grab this from the Wayback Machine.  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html

And here's where 2013 study (there are many more) -- which is available at the NIH web site -- says thimerosol may cause autism (in some populations). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3774468/

Crazy, right? Who to believe?

Actually, minasoliman, your responses are helpfully illustrative of a bigger problem in medicine.

Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

That's when you come in with your platitude and 'tude.  At this point, notice how it's the docs who are making the sweeping, general assertions, while I'm offering evidence to support my limited claims?

(You even insult me ... that's fine  ... I'll remember the next time I serve as an outside rep on a microbiology dissertation committee. Med students who get joint PhD/MBA degrees have to have a business school faculty sign off on their work. Sometimes, that's me!)

And then, you cap it off with a condescending apology, a glib restatement of what I'd already said -- it's mercury after all, by golly! -- and the car-salesman-like pitch for a thimerosol-free HepB vaccine. You may not know the lit, mina, but you evidently know your way around the PDR. Typical MD, amiright?

Folks, stuff like this is why patients don't trust physicians.

First of all, I criticized your claims, not your personality.  You come here continuing on the same vein as Anti-vaxxers on vaccines’ association with neurodevelopemntal disorders.  With the likes of people like Jenny McCarthy and Oprah, you bet I tend to react in such a way that you might be in the same crowd with them, and I react in such a way that I do care about the health of our children.

So then I own up to my mistakes, and I show you some interesting research that tends to go against some of what you post.

Your response:  I’m the reason why patients don’t trust doctors.

No, not really.  Your crass way of thinking you know more than doctors makes patients don’t trust doctors.  And your threat to give med students a hard time is telling.

Tell me again who spent 400,000 dollars in student loans, at least 8 years of schooling and 3 years of training, not including any years of clinical research taken?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:50:51 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2018, 03:27:04 PM »
I'm going to provide two links, one from the FDA and one from the CDC. 

https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#bib
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/publications.html

This is the literature on thimerosal that seems to suggest there is NO association between thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders.  So, I do not know why some papers suggest it.

Furthermore, studies have also shown we get more mercury from tuna and salmon than from vaccines, and it's not the safe kind of mercury either.  But there is something called a "safe limit", which is an actual thing in our environment today.

So, if you are worried about thimerosal, the only vaccine that has it is the flu vaccine.  To avoid the Hep B vaccine is nonsensical because it was never about the Hep B vaccine.  It was about thimerosal.

Hey,

Here's where the CDC says thimerosol doesn't cause autism. This is posted at the CDC today; I didn't grab this from the Wayback Machine.  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html

And here's where 2013 study (there are many more) -- which is available at the NIH web site -- says thimerosol may cause autism (in some populations). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3774468/

Crazy, right? Who to believe?

Actually, minasoliman, your responses are helpfully illustrative of a bigger problem in medicine.

Arachne kicks it off with a ridiculous claim: "No vaccines are bad."

Well, that's obviously wrong. So I entered this thread to make a very limited claim: that the HepB vaccine may not be great, and that mercury might be a problem. I even use phrases like "study finds," "link," "evidence suggests," "risk." I don't actually ever say "cause." 

Then Arachne comes in with an overbroad and incorrect assertion that "HepB is given earlier only if the mother is infected."

I then responded with a link to the CDC that recommends all babies receive the HepB vaccine. 

Arachne then essentially called U.S. doctors incorrect and greedy. That was fun!

That's when you come in with your platitude and 'tude.  At this point, notice how it's the docs who are making the sweeping, general assertions, while I'm offering evidence to support my limited claims?

(You even insult me ... that's fine  ... I'll remember the next time I serve as an outside rep on a microbiology dissertation committee. Med students who get joint PhD/MBA degrees have to have a business school faculty sign off on their work. Sometimes, that's me!)

And then, you cap it off with a condescending apology, a glib restatement of what I'd already said -- it's mercury after all, by golly! -- and the car-salesman-like pitch for a thimerosol-free HepB vaccine. You may not know the lit, mina, but you evidently know your way around the PDR. Typical MD, amiright?

Folks, stuff like this is why patients don't trust physicians.

First of all, I criticized your claims, not your personality.  You come here continuing on the same vein as Anti-vaxxers on vaccines’ association with neurodevelopemntal disorders.  With the likes of people like Jenny McCarthy and Oprah, you bet I tend to react in such a way that you might be in the same crowd with them, and I react in such a way that I do care about the health of our children.

So then I own up to my mistakes, and I show you some interesting research that tends to go against some of what you post.

Your response:  I’m the reason why patients don’t trust doctors.

No, not really.  Your crass way of thinking you know more than doctors makes patients don’t trust doctors.  And your threat to give med students a hard time is telling.

Tell me again who spent 400,000 dollars in student loans, at least 8 years of schooling and 3 years of training, not including any years of clinical research taken?

I never threatened to give med students a hard time. What I meant to communicate with that particular sentence was: "Next time I'm evaluating a dissertation defense on, say, mitochondrial functioning in the presence of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, I'll think back on that time an anonymous internet avatar said I didn't know anything about research."

And yes, indeed: your attitude you've displayed here is exactly why patients don't trust doctors. So convinced you are that that $400,000 bought you some extra right to be snotty when talking to people who have an educated interest in their kids' health. No anti-vaxxer here. I'm just someone who knows enough to ask whether that flu vaccine has mercury in it before they try to pump it into my 5-month old. Doctors hate that. Because $400,000.

My kid isn't here to validate the decisions you made for yourself.



Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2018, 03:51:22 PM »
Sure, that’s exactly what you meant.  Toting your business degree as some sort of authority for trying to impress me with your science vocabulary.  But frankly, you still know nothing of research.  But you can keep doing what you think you know best.  No one will force you to do anything for your own health.

But the day you endanger your child by refusing medical advise for something serious, you will be hard pressed to be able to do anything against the doctors’ wishes.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 03:53:45 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2018, 03:54:30 PM »
Sure, that’s exactly what you meant.  Toting your business degree as some sort of authority for trying to impress me with your science vocabulary.  But frankly, you still know nothing of research.  But you can keep doing what you think you know best.  No one will force you to do anything.

But the day you endanger your child by refusing medical advise for something serious, you will be hard pressed to be able to do anything against the doctors’ wishes.

Folks, this is what a $400,000 chip on the shoulder looks like.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2018, 03:57:42 PM »
You don’t have a stellar record here my friend.  I’m letting you know what the law warns against people like you.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2018, 04:09:21 PM »
You don’t have a stellar record here my friend.  I’m letting you know what the law warns against people like you.

Hunh? Gonna have to spell it out for me, doc.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2018, 04:13:47 PM »
If one day your child happens to get seriously and acutely ill, but for some reason, you decide that you don't want the doctors to give your child a certain medication, you will not be able to go against emergency medical advise.  You get to get away with it with vaccines, but the same manner of stubbornness you show to do doctors to something more serious will only bite you back.

I don't mind taking the time to sit down and inform and teach.  But when that turns into "doc, you don't know what you're talking about", then you will find yourself going through a difficult time.  I hope you don't have that difficult time, but given how you present yourself repeatedly in this forum, you sound like someone who does like to give doctors a hard time, and it won't help you in the long run.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2018, 04:29:00 PM »
If one day your child happens to get seriously and acutely ill, but for some reason, you decide that you don't want the doctors to give your child a certain medication, you will not be able to go against emergency medical advise.  You get to get away with it with vaccines, but the same manner of stubbornness you show to do doctors to something more serious will only bite you back.

I don't mind taking the time to sit down and inform and teach.  But when that turns into "doc, you don't know what you're talking about", then you will find yourself going through a difficult time.  I hope you don't have that difficult time, but given how you present yourself repeatedly in this forum, you sound like someone who does like to give doctors a hard time, and it won't help you in the long run.

Oh, yeah. I'm definitely screwed. 

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2018, 05:27:14 PM »
Upon further investigation, I take back what I said on this being valid research.  Apparently, this slipped through the cracks by a quack:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Geier

hmm...figures

Anyway, some good sources for you:
https://services.aap.org/en/search/?k=thimerosal&page=1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3018252/
https://www.aap.org/en-us/documents/immunization_vaccine_studies.pdf
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/autism-spectrum-disorder-and-chronic-disease-no-evidence-for-vaccines-or-thimerosal-as-a-contributing-factor
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/0615/p786.html
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6336/368.full

Don't take my arrogant word for it.  You and I have been played by an imposter doc that played on your emotions as a parent.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 05:31:33 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 718
  • Sink me, I can hardly bring myself to look upon it
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2018, 06:03:48 PM »
Upon further investigation, I take back what I said on this being valid research.  Apparently, this slipped through the cracks by a quack:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Geier

hmm...figures

Anyway, some good sources for you:
https://services.aap.org/en/search/?k=thimerosal&page=1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3018252/
https://www.aap.org/en-us/documents/immunization_vaccine_studies.pdf
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/autism-spectrum-disorder-and-chronic-disease-no-evidence-for-vaccines-or-thimerosal-as-a-contributing-factor
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2017/0615/p786.html
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6336/368.full

Don't take my arrogant word for it.  You and I have been played by an imposter doc that played on your emotions as a parent.


Ha. Even the research is fraudulent. What a field! It's a proud day to be an MD at OC.net.

 

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,198
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Vaccination and the Virus of Fear
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2018, 07:44:37 PM »
Yup!  Such is life my friend.  Sorry to ruin your conviction.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 07:47:56 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.