Author Topic: Filial Correction of Pope Francis  (Read 1560 times)

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Offline serb1389

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Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« on: September 26, 2017, 02:03:53 PM »
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/09/CORRECTION.html?m=1

Quote
RORATE Note: There will many Catholics, even traditionalists, whose first defeatist reaction will be to belittle this effort. But the wise, the learned in history, will understand that this is just the first part, the first piece of the puzzle, with next steps still to come in a long and extended process.

This first step is an initiative of a theological nature that will likely lead, God willing, to an initiative of a canonical nature from those who have the mandate to act. And so it begins:

Offline serb1389

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2017, 02:04:14 PM »
Thoughts on this?  I'm trying to figure out how important this all is?

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 02:27:52 PM »
If the conspiracy theories are true, and mansonry & other dark groups have their grip on the vatican, we can expect schism, maybe the creation of another trad-group that claims to be the Church.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 02:36:21 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 02:37:18 PM »
I suspect that anyone who was going to split off voluntarily has already done so, and that the current opposition will resist the urge regardless of how many outrages are thrown at them. The only way I see them leaving is by mass expulsion/ excommunication or something really drastic that not even Pope Francis would try, eg ordaining women.
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When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 11:25:36 PM »
I suspect that anyone who was going to split off voluntarily has already done so, and that the current opposition will resist the urge regardless of how many outrages are thrown at them. The only way I see them leaving is by mass expulsion/ excommunication or something really drastic that not even Pope Francis would try, eg ordaining women.

Pretty much. Even the SSPX continues to claim loyalty to Rome while rejecting basically everything Rome has done since the mid-60s – the Vatican's pull is strong indeed!
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 12:54:38 AM »
Quote from: Pope Francis
TL;DR
Sanctus Deus
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2017, 05:18:05 AM »
After reading it , it reminds me a lot of the "confession of faith against ecumenism" document from those in the Church of Greece. Except this one has only one bishop, and it is about remarriage, and admiration for Luther by the Pope.


I don't think this document is very important because not enough are signing, at least at this moment. But even if many sign, including bishops, it means nothing, because bishops in the Roman Catholic Church seem to have no real use when compared to the Pope. There could be a hundred bishop signatures and it would still not have an effect except to exert pressure, not even councils can supersede the authority of the pope.

It is even less impactful than portrayed. In Greece, recently a monastery brotherhood stopped comemmorating their bishop because of their acceptance of the council of crete. Sure, it will cause people to complain and people will think it is important, but the bishop is not going to change his ways, he is simply doubling down and persecuting them.

In my opinion, the Pope will not concede to these voices against him either. I expect he will continue to ignore their complaints, until his death. There is no reason for him to do anything else, to attack them will cause a great scandal, and to concede to them will cause a great scandal (and he will be going against his convictions), so to ignore it and stay with your convictions is the obvious action.

The world is not taking the side of the traditionalists, the Pope knows he has majority support of the church (most laity will surely support remarriage, they do not care about the traditionalist argument they do not have the time to even entertain it), and most secularists support his reforms. No reason to turn back now
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 10:37:19 AM »
Quote from: Pope Francis
TL;DR

Yeah, I'm thinking along the lines of the "sorrowful epistles", except with even less effect.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2017, 11:18:07 AM »
Quote from: Pope Francis
TL;DR
Pretty much the case, atheist panda doesn't care.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2017, 03:25:54 PM »
If you look at the list of signatories, it's a). no one important, and b). a long list of cranks (e.g. Holocaust deniers, conspiracy theorists, etc.).

FWIW, Pope JPII was also given a Filial Correction at one point, and you see how much import it had.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2017, 03:30:05 PM »
Well, Bishop Fellay is somewhat important. But yeah.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2017, 03:35:23 PM »
Well, Bishop Fellay is somewhat important. But yeah.

Exactly. He's the heaviest hitter of the whole bunch.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2017, 05:35:26 PM »
Quote from: Pope Francis
TL;DR
Pretty much the case, atheist panda doesn't care.

That seems a little much.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline serb1389

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2017, 11:41:36 AM »
If you look at the list of signatories, it's a). no one important, and b). a long list of cranks (e.g. Holocaust deniers, conspiracy theorists, etc.).

FWIW, Pope JPII was also given a Filial Correction at one point, and you see how much import it had.

I had read an article that said that this one WAS important because of it's claim of heresy.  No? 

Offline serb1389

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2017, 11:42:30 AM »
There could be a hundred bishop signatures and it would still not have an effect except to exert pressure, not even councils can supersede the authority of the pope.


Do you have anything to back up this claim/statement?  I wasn't aware that this is the case. 

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2017, 01:50:12 PM »
There could be a hundred bishop signatures and it would still not have an effect except to exert pressure, not even councils can supersede the authority of the pope.


Do you have anything to back up this claim/statement?  I wasn't aware that this is the case.

In Roman Catholic ecclesiology, the Pope is supreme, not just with respect to other individual bishops, but even to an ecumenical council since, according to this line of thinking, a council cannot be ecumenical if the Pope does not ratify it. You can see this explicitly in Vatican I and Vatican II, where the decrees are promulgated by the Pope, not by the Councils themselves. Pope Paul VI walked back the language slightly by saying he was promulgating after "the approval of the Council Fathers," but it is still promulgated in his name.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2017, 01:57:05 PM »
Right. It is still ostensibly possible for a Pope to be deposed. For instance, if he formally teaches heresy, he is supposedly no longer a real Pope. But there really isn't a mechanism for enforcing this, certainly nothing like the clear structure of Papal supremacy laid out in Pastor Aeternus, Lumen Gentium, etc. In fact they seem to go out of their way to contradict the conciliarists and say that, while the councils need the leadership and approval of the Pope, he can act without any input from them.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline serb1389

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2017, 05:23:09 PM »
I didn't realize papal authority went that far.  thanks for the update! 

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2017, 05:35:04 PM »
Orthodox really did miss an opportunity (theologically) on this point at the Council of Florence, which was an important landmark among a number of western Councils disputing exactly this point: should an Ecumenical Council be the highest authority in Roman Catholicism and able to overrule a pope (conciliarism).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 05:36:06 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2017, 05:45:58 PM »
I think you may be taking the council at Florence far too ingenuously.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2017, 05:48:44 PM »
I think, for reasons that Met John Zizioulas has laid out, conciliarism is highly problematic in its own way. Also, the Orthodox were really a sideshow at Florence. Whether they went to Florence or Basel they were a feather in the respective party's cap. It's unlikely they would have really decided anything.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2017, 06:13:50 PM »
I think, for reasons that Met John Zizioulas has laid out, conciliarism is highly problematic in its own way. Also, the Orthodox were really a sideshow at Florence. Whether they went to Florence or Basel they were a feather in the respective party's cap. It's unlikely they would have really decided anything.

Can you bullet-point the Metropolitan's anxieties?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 06:30:15 PM »
I think, for reasons that Met John Zizioulas has laid out, conciliarism is highly problematic in its own way. Also, the Orthodox were really a sideshow at Florence. Whether they went to Florence or Basel they were a feather in the respective party's cap. It's unlikely they would have really decided anything.

Can you bullet-point the Metropolitan's anxieties?

His thoughts are best read in his own words: http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/F2f.htm
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2017, 06:34:58 PM »
Thank you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2017, 07:01:32 PM »
I think, for reasons that Met John Zizioulas has laid out, conciliarism is highly problematic in its own way. Also, the Orthodox were really a sideshow at Florence. Whether they went to Florence or Basel they were a feather in the respective party's cap. It's unlikely they would have really decided anything.

Can you bullet-point the Metropolitan's anxieties?

His thoughts are best read in his own words: http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/F2f.htm

It's funny, if "local Church" didn't really mean "local bishopric," he'd basically have a Baptist understanding of Church government AFAICT. Does the Met. get put on blast a lot for this piece?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2017, 07:09:25 PM »
I don't see why he should. It seems to me that every time Orthodox quote Saint Ignatius of Antioch, "Wherever the bishop is , there is the church," in polemics with Rome, they are essentially supporting this model. Hive-Papacy is something else.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2017, 08:12:21 PM »
I'm sorry but that's the most ridiculous combined attempt at doublespeak and hipsterism I've read in years. That's just -- bad. "Hive papacy" -- like "consolidated anarchy" or "lush baldness"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2017, 08:22:38 PM »
I'm sorry but that's the most ridiculous combined attempt at doublespeak and hipsterism I've read in years. That's just -- bad. "Hive papacy" -- like "consolidated anarchy" or "lush baldness"?

You're cool
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2017, 08:28:21 PM »
Obviously councils can be abused. At present, the system most being abused and exposed as farcical sophistry is democracy, so even "the people" are not magical. However, to argue councils of diverse churchmen are comparable to a papacy by nature, in theory, in history, or scripturally is to make a joke of all category and discernment. I don't want to imagine what motivated the man.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2017, 09:11:13 PM »
I don't see why he should. It seems to me that every time Orthodox quote Saint Ignatius of Antioch, "Wherever the bishop is , there is the church," in polemics with Rome, they are essentially supporting this model. Hive-Papacy is something else.

Well, I'm glad he doesn't.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2017, 09:15:02 PM »
Obviously councils can be abused. At present, the system most being abused and exposed as farcical sophistry is democracy, so even "the people" are not magical. However, to argue councils of diverse churchmen are comparable to a papacy by nature, in theory, in history, or scripturally is to make a joke of all category and discernment. I don't want to imagine what motivated the man.

First, like you'd even be Orthodox if the US was an absolute monarchy. You'd likely be dead, actually. Show a little gratitude.

Second, pretty sure Met. Zizioulas was saying the complete opposite of that.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2017, 09:15:46 PM »
Obviously councils can be abused. At present, the system most being abused and exposed as farcical sophistry is democracy, so even "the people" are not magical. However, to argue councils of diverse churchmen are comparable to a papacy by nature, in theory, in history, or scripturally is to make a joke of all category and discernment. I don't want to imagine what motivated the man.

Except he didn't say that. You are a pathological liar.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2017, 09:19:03 PM »
Obviously councils can be abused. At present, the system most being abused and exposed as farcical sophistry is democracy, so even "the people" are not magical. However, to argue councils of diverse churchmen are comparable to a papacy by nature, in theory, in history, or scripturally is to make a joke of all category and discernment. I don't want to imagine what motivated the man.

Except he didn't say that. You are a pathological liar.

I love how he's "the Metropolitan" until Porter decides he disagrees with him. Then he's "the man" with wicked unimaginable motives.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2017, 10:23:44 PM »
Obviously councils can be abused. At present, the system most being abused and exposed as farcical sophistry is democracy, so even "the people" are not magical. However, to argue councils of diverse churchmen are comparable to a papacy by nature, in theory, in history, or scripturally is to make a joke of all category and discernment. I don't want to imagine what motivated the man.
What happened to you that has suddenly turned you against your Mother Church which has reared you in all love and piety? You were once, I thought, a faithful Greek!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 10:25:00 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2017, 11:46:46 PM »
Obviously councils can be abused. At present, the system most being abused and exposed as farcical sophistry is democracy, so even "the people" are not magical. However, to argue councils of diverse churchmen are comparable to a papacy by nature, in theory, in history, or scripturally is to make a joke of all category and discernment. I don't want to imagine what motivated the man.

Except he didn't say that. You are a pathological liar.
Iconodule,

Please try to watch the ad hominems.

Thanks,

Antonis
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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2017, 12:58:10 PM »
Obviously councils can be abused. At present, the system most being abused and exposed as farcical sophistry is democracy, so even "the people" are not magical. However, to argue councils of diverse churchmen are comparable to a papacy by nature, in theory, in history, or scripturally is to make a joke of all category and discernment. I don't want to imagine what motivated the man.
What happened to you that has suddenly turned you against your Mother Church which has reared you in all love and piety? You were once, I thought, a faithful Greek!

Well struck. But I'm addressing specific content, and I'd invite you to do the same when you next voice your concerns.
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Re: Filial Correction of Pope Francis
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2017, 12:31:07 PM »
I for one would greatly appreciate the conversation getting back to the OP.  If you all want to discuss something else with each other, that's why we have a Private Message system