OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 24, 2014, 12:50:09 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is smoking marijuana a sin?  (Read 38532 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #180 on: February 12, 2013, 05:28:06 PM »

Although I do not smoke pot except on random and quite rare occasions-maybe I did it about 10 times last year I have friends that smoke it regularly. I failed to see any downside to it really. They have been able to keep a stable job, didn't get into accidents it doesn't make them mean or unable to interact normally with other people. So only based on that I don't see much of a problem.
Logged
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #181 on: February 12, 2013, 05:42:08 PM »

Pot has a rancid smell, a simply disgusting aroma.  I can only imagine what it tastes like.
U should give it a try some time. At least u'd have a faint idea of what u r talking about.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,011


"My god is greater."


« Reply #182 on: February 12, 2013, 05:52:48 PM »

From some extreme potheads (meaning, people who smoke it once a day or more) I've occasionally observed slight paranoia and irritability. Among less frequent users I have not noticed any such effects.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,884


« Reply #183 on: February 12, 2013, 05:54:34 PM »

I've noticed family members willing to risk having their kids taken away from them rather than give up a bit of a good time. That's not exactly a health issue though.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,644


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #184 on: February 12, 2013, 06:01:04 PM »

I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.
Nothing wrong with that if they are not getting intoxicated as far as I can tell.

They are still harming their bodies though; even if they are not getting intoxicated. Alcohol has been proven to damage your kidney as well as your pancreas, whereas, marijuana HAS NO PROVEN health hazards or harmful affects on your body. Every study on the affects of marijuana has been inconclusive at best, whereas scientists and doctors could tell you all sorts of harmful affects that alcohol and tobacco has on the body. Kerdy earlier said that marijuana is "at least" as bad as tobacco; but that's very inaccurate. Tobacco has been strongly linked to cancer and respitory defects, whereas marijuana hasn't been concusively linked to anything harmful at all. I think that harming your temple of the Holy Spirit within God's Church through alcohol--even if you aren't getting intoxicated--is a lot worse than harmlessly smoking a blunt to relax. Likewise, Kerdy was misleading earlier. He stated that marijuana stays in your system for weeks at a time, whereas the affects of alcohol wear off sooner. That's not entirely accurate. While technically marijuana may stay in your system for a longer time, the affect of being "high" from it only lasts 1-3 hours, whereas most drunks I've met stay drunk almost all night.

I'm not supporting marijuana or anything, and I appreciate what you and Kerdy are trying to do, but I'm only pointing out that you guys are blatantly wrong in many of your "facts" about marijuana.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,500


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #185 on: February 12, 2013, 06:27:57 PM »

James, you get your ideas from anecdotes. Again, where are the laboratories, universities and scientific journals and peer-reviewed research at least in the U.S. that are studying this? I'll tell you: there aren't any. Because it's illegal except for in limited amounts as a painkiller, in a few states, the only stories you'll hear are from potheads and people who make money growing the drug.

Oh yeah, a lot of people die in battles between dealers over turf. Cops die at the hands of growers sometimes. I don't think you'll care too much about that, but it happens. Some people care.

Has it ever occurred to you that pot production isn't the cleanest thing in the world? Growers say things because they want to keep making money growing it. Not because they really care that some elderly person has glaucoma or some AIDS patient has the shakes. A lot of people are making tones of money from sales of pot. They spread stories to make you keep being interested in buying it. Even if you don't buy it, if you believe their stories, you're part of the issue.

Plenty of people get drunk and smoke pot at the same time. Or they do other drugs plus pot. Ever thought about the multiplicative effect? Or what happens when you use larger and larger amounts? Do you think that when people die in car crashes, none of them ever had pot in their system? Zero? Really? Come on.

THC is a carcinogen. A lot of people die in this country from cancer. One of the most common kinds is lung cancer. Again, since pot is not legal in most places, a lot of sufferers won't come forward and admit that they got it from smoking a lot of pot.

The other posters are not wrong in their facts. You are, JamesR, because you don't have any facts. Stop getting your ideas from "High Times" or kids in school.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,500


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #186 on: February 12, 2013, 06:48:08 PM »

Speaking of facts, here are some. Not that I think it'll change your mind.

http://cumberlink.com/news/health/ask-a-doctor-the-health-effects-of-marijuana/article_195d3b9a-6975-11e2-b4c6-0019bb2963f4.html

http://allafrica.com/stories/201301300413.html

From the second article:

Quote
Medical literature doesn't suggest marijuana use does wonders in a range of ailments. Smoke from cannabis contains thousands of chemical compounds--and the tar is chemically similar to what is found in cigarette smoke, including the same carcinogens.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #187 on: February 12, 2013, 06:58:22 PM »

In Buddhism, there are five basic precepts (pañca-sila) that even lay followers are supposed to adhere to. The fifth goes like this: I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. (In Orthodoxy, that would be ἀμέλεια or ἀκηδία - indifference to one's own salvation.)

The Buddha explains the point of the fifth precept like this:

Quote
"Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. And this is the eighth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness."

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.039.than.html

Now if a pagan, with the light of natural reason alone, gets this, what excuse does a Christian have for not getting it?
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #188 on: February 12, 2013, 07:19:08 PM »

The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.

Yes, this is problematic indeed! But how about when her 16 year old grandson gets into Grandma's scotch (which she is "sipping" but not getting "drunk" on) and runs someone over driving to a party? Alcohol makes people intoxicated. Marijuana makes people intoxicated. Why is one sinful and the other not? 

You can't justify one wrong by pointing to another wrong.  It simply doesn't work.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #189 on: February 12, 2013, 07:21:14 PM »

Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  Smiley


You can't justify one wrong but point at another wrong.  It just doesn't work.  It also reveals the inability to support the view on its own merit.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #190 on: February 12, 2013, 07:22:59 PM »

Kerdy admitted he hasn't ever smoked marijuana. That makes discussing with him differences between alcohol and marijuana intoxication pretty pointless.


I have never murdered anyone, raped anyone, robbed a bank, gotten a DUI and a laundry list of other things.  What were you saying about pointless?
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #191 on: February 12, 2013, 07:24:38 PM »

Kerdy has no idea what he's talking about.


I can debate this point, but I prefer to focus on what is not immediately observable.  Question:  Do  you think God prefers you to have control over your faculties to make proper and Christian choices or open to suggestion from Satan?


I am often less able and likely to commit certain sins when I'm stoned/drunk or a combination of the two.

Taking a hit from a joint does get you high very fast.  

How do you know? You've admitted that you've never smoked marijuana.
Really... Undecided
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #192 on: February 12, 2013, 07:32:56 PM »

I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.
Nothing wrong with that if they are not getting intoxicated as far as I can tell.

They are still harming their bodies though; even if they are not getting intoxicated. Alcohol has been proven to damage your kidney as well as your pancreas, whereas, marijuana HAS NO PROVEN health hazards or harmful affects on your body. Every study on the affects of marijuana has been inconclusive at best, whereas scientists and doctors could tell you all sorts of harmful affects that alcohol and tobacco has on the body. Kerdy earlier said that marijuana is "at least" as bad as tobacco; but that's very inaccurate. Tobacco has been strongly linked to cancer and respitory defects, whereas marijuana hasn't been concusively linked to anything harmful at all. I think that harming your temple of the Holy Spirit within God's Church through alcohol--even if you aren't getting intoxicated--is a lot worse than harmlessly smoking a blunt to relax. Likewise, Kerdy was misleading earlier. He stated that marijuana stays in your system for weeks at a time, whereas the affects of alcohol wear off sooner. That's not entirely accurate. While technically marijuana may stay in your system for a longer time, the affect of being "high" from it only lasts 1-3 hours, whereas most drunks I've met stay drunk almost all night.

I'm not supporting marijuana or anything, and I appreciate what you and Kerdy are trying to do, but I'm only pointing out that you guys are blatantly wrong in many of your "facts" about marijuana.
No, we are not.
Logged
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #193 on: February 12, 2013, 07:51:39 PM »

Answer to op's question.

Yes Cool
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #194 on: February 12, 2013, 07:54:19 PM »

It depends what you mean by both "sin" and"smoking"
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #195 on: February 12, 2013, 08:26:20 PM »

THC is a carcinogen? I really had no idea.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Nelson
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #196 on: February 12, 2013, 10:34:44 PM »

Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  Smiley


You can't justify one wrong but point at another wrong.  It just doesn't work.  It also reveals the inability to support the view on its own merit.

I posted these research findings because I thought you'd find them of interest, Kerdy, since you told JamesR (matter-of-factly) that he was wrong about alcohol contributing to violent behaviour more than marijuana does. I posted evidence to the contrary. When you're wrong about something, you're wrong. No big deal. Scientific findings are always interesting when people are making questionable fact statements.



Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Nelson
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #197 on: February 12, 2013, 10:35:53 PM »

The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.

Yes, this is problematic indeed! But how about when her 16 year old grandson gets into Grandma's scotch (which she is "sipping" but not getting "drunk" on) and runs someone over driving to a party? Alcohol makes people intoxicated. Marijuana makes people intoxicated. Why is one sinful and the other not? 

You can't justify one wrong by pointing to another wrong.  It simply doesn't work.

How about just answering the question instead?
Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #198 on: February 13, 2013, 05:19:43 AM »

Pot has a rancid smell, a simply disgusting aroma.  I can only imagine what it tastes like.
U should give it a try some time. At least u'd have a faint idea of what u r talking about.

I have to agree with this one. Tobacco is tastier.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #199 on: February 13, 2013, 06:15:00 AM »

The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.

Yes, this is problematic indeed! But how about when her 16 year old grandson gets into Grandma's scotch (which she is "sipping" but not getting "drunk" on) and runs someone over driving to a party? Alcohol makes people intoxicated. Marijuana makes people intoxicated. Why is one sinful and the other not? 

You can't justify one wrong by pointing to another wrong.  It simply doesn't work.

How about just answering the question instead?

I answered this question several posts back.  In fact, I believe it was before you asked the question.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #200 on: February 13, 2013, 06:15:29 AM »

Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  Smiley


You can't justify one wrong but point at another wrong.  It just doesn't work.  It also reveals the inability to support the view on its own merit.

I posted these research findings because I thought you'd find them of interest, Kerdy, since you told JamesR (matter-of-factly) that he was wrong about alcohol contributing to violent behaviour more than marijuana does. I posted evidence to the contrary. When you're wrong about something, you're wrong. No big deal. Scientific findings are always interesting when people are making questionable fact statements.





You are still missing the point. 
Logged
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Nelson
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #201 on: February 13, 2013, 07:49:04 AM »

You are still missing the point. 

Pointless...
Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #202 on: February 13, 2013, 08:20:37 AM »

You are still missing the point.  

Pointless...

If you feel that way, of course it is, but this is not an either/or debate.  Attempting to justify one wrong behavior by pointing at another wrong behavior has never, does not now, and never will work.  Also, you are attempting to marginalize one while magnifying another, which also does not work.  You say you simply want to point out alcohol makes more people aggressive than MJ, but if MJ makes a percentage of people more aggressive than they normally are, the point you are attempting to make is flawed.  If for no other reason, I can point out a percentage of people are made less aggressive and embarrassingly more friendly than normal when drunk. (This guy)

In one breath you say you do not advocate for MJ consumption, yet in the next you debate in its favor against something you consider worse.  This is no different than saying, “I don’t advocate for spousal abuse, but at least it isn’t aggravated sexual violence, because that is much worse.”  Then continue to focus on ASV as if SA is acceptable, but both are deplorable.  So, if you think alcohol consumption is wrong, just say so.  If you think MJ consumption is wrong, same thing.  At least then we will have a place to start and move forward from rather than argue for arguments sake.

Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

“But, I have heard with some people, the more they smoke the more they need to smoke to feel its effects. “

This, to a limited degree, is true; however, in the same way the more alcohol a person consumes the more they need to feel its effects.  If you remember, this does not alter the real physical effects of alcohol, only what they need to FEEL intoxicated.  They are still intoxicated (but have developed into what is known as a functioning alcoholic), just like the pot heads consuming weed, only at a much, much slower rate.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:21:50 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Pericles
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178



WWW
« Reply #203 on: February 13, 2013, 08:47:49 AM »

THC is a carcinogen? I really had no idea.
THC inhibits the enzyme necessary to activate some of the carcinogens found in tobacco smoke, THC therefore has protective effects against carcinogens.
Logged

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #204 on: February 13, 2013, 08:49:57 AM »

Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Pericles
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178



WWW
« Reply #205 on: February 13, 2013, 08:54:57 AM »

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  
What a load of old crock! Spoken like a person that has no experience on the matter and has no idea what they're waffling on about.  If you have one pint you feel the effect of alcohol, you can have two or three further pionts, feel the effect and get to the place people call 'merry' finally if you drink more you become intoxicated. It's precisely the same with cannabis, feeling the effect 'high' is one thing but intoxication is quite another, also THC the principal psychoactive constituent of the cannabis plant, has an
extremely low toxicity.
Logged

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #206 on: February 13, 2013, 08:58:27 AM »

Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Cherry pick much, and out of context?  Just where does it say "they were drunk" rather than "they drunk", as in they drank?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 09:20:19 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #207 on: February 13, 2013, 09:04:14 AM »

I find it extremely interesting to see people attack the use of tobacco and the consumption of alcohol and at the very same time support the consumption (for recreational purposes) of marijuana, which does both things simultaneously and at an increased rate.  I believe this fits the definition of hypocrisy. 
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #208 on: February 13, 2013, 09:12:26 AM »

I believe this fits the definition of hypocrisy. 

I think hypocrisy is sayin alcohol is OK and marijuana is not.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #209 on: February 13, 2013, 09:18:31 AM »

I believe this fits the definition of hypocrisy. 

I think hypocrisy is sayin alcohol is OK and marijuana is not.

No, hypocrisy would be saying getting drunk is ok and getting high is not.
Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,368


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #210 on: February 13, 2013, 05:38:15 PM »

I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.
Nothing wrong with that if they are not getting intoxicated as far as I can tell.

They are still harming their bodies though; even if they are not getting intoxicated. Alcohol has been proven to damage your kidney as well as your pancreas, whereas, marijuana HAS NO PROVEN health hazards or harmful affects on your body. Every study on the affects of marijuana has been inconclusive at best, whereas scientists and doctors could tell you all sorts of harmful affects that alcohol and tobacco has on the body. Kerdy earlier said that marijuana is "at least" as bad as tobacco; but that's very inaccurate. Tobacco has been strongly linked to cancer and respitory defects, whereas marijuana hasn't been concusively linked to anything harmful at all. I think that harming your temple of the Holy Spirit within God's Church through alcohol--even if you aren't getting intoxicated--is a lot worse than harmlessly smoking a blunt to relax. Likewise, Kerdy was misleading earlier. He stated that marijuana stays in your system for weeks at a time, whereas the affects of alcohol wear off sooner. That's not entirely accurate. While technically marijuana may stay in your system for a longer time, the affect of being "high" from it only lasts 1-3 hours, whereas most drunks I've met stay drunk almost all night.

I'm not supporting marijuana or anything, and I appreciate what you and Kerdy are trying to do, but I'm only pointing out that you guys are blatantly wrong in many of your "facts" about marijuana.
I think you are confusing someone else's posts with mine as I haven't made statements on these points.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 06:04:22 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #211 on: February 13, 2013, 05:40:25 PM »

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  
What a load of old crock! Spoken like a person that has no experience on the matter and has no idea what they're waffling on about.  If you have one pint you feel the effect of alcohol, you can have two or three further pionts, feel the effect and get to the place people call 'merry' finally if you drink more you become intoxicated. It's precisely the same with cannabis, feeling the effect 'high' is one thing but intoxication is quite another, also THC the principal psychoactive constituent of the cannabis plant, has an
extremely low toxicity.
Well said, sir.
Logged
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #212 on: February 13, 2013, 05:47:40 PM »

Also, to address, what is, perhaps, the underlying assumption of the original question, that we need an official answer from the church/clergy or whatever such authority for pretty much everything. I am pretty sure this is not the case. There are experiences -even if quite dumb in themselves-and which the church formally condemns,  condemnations the faithful quasi-universally ignore- that are still to be had in their time "the sins of my youth etc" . And because these things are so universal, heroically resisting them might be admirable, but it often makes one unable to interact with the world at an "average" or 'normal" level. One outgrows many things.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 06:15:30 PM by augustin717 » Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #213 on: February 13, 2013, 06:05:29 PM »

One outgrows many things.

Or so one likes to think, ad excusandas excusationes in peccatis.

"Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so..."

"If any of you put a stumbling-block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if..."

"But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling-block to the weak."
Logged
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #214 on: February 13, 2013, 06:09:26 PM »

Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...
And also:
"...thou hast know my sitting down, and my rising up.
 Thou hast understood my thoughts afar off: my path and my line thou hast searched out.
 4 And thou hast foreseen all my ways..."
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 06:21:55 PM by augustin717 » Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #215 on: February 13, 2013, 06:23:23 PM »

Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...

Προσπαθῶ - μόνως ἐὰν ἐσὺ τὸν ἑαυτόν σου βλάπτεις, τοὐλάχιστον πρόσεχε μὴ βλάπτεις κανέναν ἄλλον.
Logged
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Nelson
Posts: 1,236



« Reply #216 on: February 13, 2013, 06:32:17 PM »

If you feel that way, of course it is, but this is not an either/or debate. Attempting to justify one wrong behavior by pointing at another wrong behavior has never, does not now, and never will work. Also, you are attempting to marginalize one while magnifying another, which also does not work.  You say you simply want to point out alcohol makes more people aggressive than MJ, but if MJ makes a percentage of people more aggressive than they normally are, the point you are attempting to make is flawed. In one breath you say you do not advocate for MJ consumption, yet in the next you debate in its favor against something you consider worse.

I find it rather odd that you keep insisting that I am doing something I have insisted that I am not doing. Please stop accusing me of motives that I have clearly denied having, and that I have nowhere here expressed. For the record, I did not post research findings for the purpose of convincing anyone that marijuana is good and alcohol is bad, or that one is better than the other. I posted them to demonstrate to you that your "experiences" and observations do not align with the facts. And because the studies were pertinent to the direction this discussion was taking at the time. That's all.

When you are pontificating about something in a way that clearly goes against the evidence, don't be surprised if someone posts evidence to demonstrate your error. Claiming that you know some people who are mellower when they are drunk does not disprove the fact that marijuana has been shown to make people less aggressive and alcohol has been demonstrated to make people more aggressive, overall. Just read the research, if it matters to you. Your personal experiences are fine, but you cannot define reality based only on your own (often seemingly anomalous) experiences.

Some people have low tolerance to alcohol and one beer is enough to get them buzzed. Some can drink three or four without too much of an effect. Some drinks are very potent, and some are not. Some marijuana is very strong and some is very mild. Some people have a high tolerance to THC. Some do not. So you're right, it isn't black-and-white indeed. Considering that you have no personal experience with marijuana, and that you seem to base your argument on nothing more than your observations of a few people you've seen smoke up, your claim that marijuana is inherently sinful because of the rate and potency of its effect on the nervous system is a little unconvincing, to say the least.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 06:38:04 PM by stavros_388 » Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
Deep Roots
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Catholic
Posts: 370


« Reply #217 on: February 13, 2013, 06:34:08 PM »

I like smoking weed occasionally, but I haven't in some time.  Mostly because I don't care that much about it and I have other priorities and....... because I lost my connect and it's too much work to find a new one.
Logged

Peace.
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #218 on: February 13, 2013, 06:39:36 PM »

Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...

Προσπαθῶ - μόνως ἐὰν ἐσὺ τὸν ἑαυτόν σου βλάπτεις, τοὐλάχιστον πρόσεχε μὴ βλάπτεις κανέναν ἄλλον.
It's funny you  use Greek on the English section of the forum. I know you know it, but  it's just out of place.
Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #219 on: February 13, 2013, 06:43:43 PM »

Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...

Προσπαθῶ - μόνως ἐὰν ἐσὺ τὸν ἑαυτόν σου βλάπτεις, τοὐλάχιστον πρόσεχε μὴ βλάπτεις κανέναν ἄλλον.
It's funny you  use Greek on the English section of the forum. I know you know it, but  it's just out of place.

When addressed in a language, I try my best to answer in the same.

Lest I should break any rules, here's a translation:

"I am trying - only if you harm yourself, at least be careful not to harm anyone else."
Logged
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #220 on: February 13, 2013, 06:49:53 PM »

Looks more like a display of erudition . I only used Greek there in an ironic way since you used Latin just before.
Logged
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #221 on: February 13, 2013, 06:59:56 PM »

Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #222 on: February 13, 2013, 07:03:34 PM »

Looks more like a display of erudition . I only used Greek there in an ironic way since you used Latin just before.

Prostite i blagoslovite. Wink
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,470


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #223 on: February 13, 2013, 07:58:02 PM »

From some extreme potheads (meaning, people who smoke it once a day or more) I've occasionally observed slight paranoia and irritability. Among less frequent users I have not noticed any such effects.
You probably haven't realized but this was your 4999th post...Wink
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #224 on: February 13, 2013, 08:51:40 PM »

If you feel that way, of course it is, but this is not an either/or debate. Attempting to justify one wrong behavior by pointing at another wrong behavior has never, does not now, and never will work. Also, you are attempting to marginalize one while magnifying another, which also does not work.  You say you simply want to point out alcohol makes more people aggressive than MJ, but if MJ makes a percentage of people more aggressive than they normally are, the point you are attempting to make is flawed. In one breath you say you do not advocate for MJ consumption, yet in the next you debate in its favor against something you consider worse.

I find it rather odd that you keep insisting that I am doing something I have insisted that I am not doing. Please stop accusing me of motives that I have clearly denied having, and that I have nowhere here expressed. For the record, I did not post research findings for the purpose of convincing anyone that marijuana is good and alcohol is bad, or that one is better than the other. I posted them to demonstrate to you that your "experiences" and observations do not align with the facts. And because the studies were pertinent to the direction this discussion was taking at the time. That's all.

When you are pontificating about something in a way that clearly goes against the evidence, don't be surprised if someone posts evidence to demonstrate your error. Claiming that you know some people who are mellower when they are drunk does not disprove the fact that marijuana has been shown to make people less aggressive and alcohol has been demonstrated to make people more aggressive, overall. Just read the research, if it matters to you. Your personal experiences are fine, but you cannot define reality based only on your own (often seemingly anomalous) experiences.

Some people have low tolerance to alcohol and one beer is enough to get them buzzed. Some can drink three or four without too much of an effect. Some drinks are very potent, and some are not. Some marijuana is very strong and some is very mild. Some people have a high tolerance to THC. Some do not. So you're right, it isn't black-and-white indeed. Considering that you have no personal experience with marijuana, and that you seem to base your argument on nothing more than your observations of a few people you've seen smoke up, your claim that marijuana is inherently sinful because of the rate and potency of its effect on the nervous system is a little unconvincing, to say the least.

Um, ok.  Running in circles makes me dizzy so I'm gonna stop now, especially when you read only the parts you want to read and ignore everything else.  You can keep going, but I am going to stop.  

(Bolded portion:  It's probably the thing I have most experience with in my occupation.  Just sayin...)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:57:30 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Tags: sin Orthodox Christian Fellowship marijuana alcohol drugs bee in bonnet pot weed 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.157 seconds with 72 queries.