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Author Topic: Is smoking marijuana a sin?  (Read 38964 times) Average Rating: 0
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Demian
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« Reply #495 on: June 27, 2013, 04:39:43 AM »

I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.

Not as rare as you think.



From the University of Washingtons Alcohol and Drug abuse institute

Does smoking marijuana cause schizophrenia?

Psychosis refers to a number of mental illnesses where people experience difficulty in telling what is real and what is not. Someone suffering from a psychosis might hear voices that are not really there (hallucinations), or believe things that are not true (delusions). Schizophrenia is a form of psychosis.

Hallucinations and delusions can also be accompanied by muddled thinking and speech, making it difficult for other people to understand the person.

There have been reports of people experiencing these psychotic symptoms after smoking a lot of marijuana or more marijuana than they are used to. This is rare and the symptoms, although frightening at the time, usually go away if use of marijuana is stopped. marijuana has been shown to make psychotic symptoms worse in those who already have a psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia.

Some claim that marijuana can cause schizophrenia. Evidence suggests that marijuana may somehow trigger schizophrenia in those who are already at risk of developing the disorder. Those with a vulnerability to develop schizophrenia, such as having a family history of the illness, should be strongly advised against using marijuana for this reason.

http://adai.uw.edu/marijuana/factsheets/mentalhealth.htm





« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 04:42:59 AM by Demian » Logged
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« Reply #496 on: June 27, 2013, 05:33:07 AM »

I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed?  

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated.  
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.

I don't have much of a problem with someone who doesn't smoke pot giving their opinion.  For those (like me) who lean more toward a "not necessarily a sin" view, frequently point out the comparison with alcohol which the Church endorses.  

If one were to have an Islamic or puritanical approach where not even alcohol is tolerated, then there would be more consistency.  The idea of having an alcohol induced buzz being permissible, while looking down on sharing a joint with some friends, is bizarre.

 
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.

Still tons of cultural bias here.  In your comparisons you assert that alcohol is fine and dandy and pot is bad, without any reasoning.  

Do you really want to start comparing the merits of alcohol to pot?  

You brought up driving and police involvement.  Are these things usually alcohol or pot related? Has anyone ever died from marijuana intoxication? Do doctors prescribe alcohol?
How many times are we going to revisit alcohol.  I've addressed this several times in this thread.  

You missed the point of the comparisons.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 05:38:44 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #497 on: June 27, 2013, 05:35:45 AM »

I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.
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« Reply #498 on: June 27, 2013, 05:37:33 AM »

I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.
At least you are making it clear its your opinion based on our experience.  I respect that and thank you for it even though I disagree.
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« Reply #499 on: June 27, 2013, 07:49:45 AM »

At least you are making it clear its your opinion based on our experience.

You aren't.
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« Reply #500 on: June 27, 2013, 08:29:31 AM »

I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed?  

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated.  
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.

I don't have much of a problem with someone who doesn't smoke pot giving their opinion.  For those (like me) who lean more toward a "not necessarily a sin" view, frequently point out the comparison with alcohol which the Church endorses.  

If one were to have an Islamic or puritanical approach where not even alcohol is tolerated, then there would be more consistency.  The idea of having an alcohol induced buzz being permissible, while looking down on sharing a joint with some friends, is bizarre.

 
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.

Still tons of cultural bias here.  In your comparisons you assert that alcohol is fine and dandy and pot is bad, without any reasoning.  

Do you really want to start comparing the merits of alcohol to pot?  

You brought up driving and police involvement.  Are these things usually alcohol or pot related? Has anyone ever died from marijuana intoxication? Do doctors prescribe alcohol?
How many times are we going to revisit alcohol.  I've addressed this several times in this thread.  

You missed the point of the comparisons.

Again you are saying things without explaining them.  IF I missed your point of your comparisons, then please explain how.  It's frustrating when you just claim something without further explanation.  We understand that you are against pot, but simply stating so is not sufficient.

My understanding of your comparison is as follows:  You believe that alcohol, while it is intoxication, is still nothing compared to the intoxication of marijuana.  In fact, you believe that marijuana should not be compared to alcohol because it (pot) is that much worse than alcohol.  Is this what you were saying?

If I am accurate about your position, then this is why I'm trying to bring specifics into the conversation.  WHY (according to you) is alcohol so much better than pot? Perhaps you alluded to this in a previous post, but if so it's just a matter of you repeating yourself again.  We are on page 12 of this thread, after all.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 08:31:31 AM by john_mo » Logged

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« Reply #501 on: June 27, 2013, 08:42:57 AM »

I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.

But of course you aren't going to say exactly what you find wrong with it, are you?
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« Reply #502 on: June 27, 2013, 08:44:36 AM »

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know.

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics.

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.

Nothing wrong with watching pornography, we tell ourselves, forgetting that the demand for pornography enslaves many poor young women (and men) in a form of prostitution, all for our sexual gratification. Pornography has become one of the major addictions of our time, keeping large numbers of people in bondage, and preventing sound healthy relationships.

Situation ethics has convinced women that since they have the right to make decisions concerning their own bodies, aborting the fetus is allowable if their own life style will be negatively affected. Nothing about the rights of the unborn, who have no voice whatsoever.

Situation ethics as blurred the image of marriage, causing couples to choose living together without marriage to become the norm, and same sex couples to see marriage as their right.

The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite.
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« Reply #503 on: June 27, 2013, 08:58:06 AM »

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know.

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics.

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.

Nothing wrong with watching pornography, we tell ourselves, forgetting that the demand for pornography enslaves many poor young women (and men) in a form of prostitution, all for our sexual gratification. Pornography has become one of the major addictions of our time, keeping large numbers of people in bondage, and preventing sound healthy relationships.

Situation ethics has convinced women that since they have the right to make decisions concerning their own bodies, aborting the fetus is allowable if their own life style will be negatively affected. Nothing about the rights of the unborn, who have no voice whatsoever.

Situation ethics as blurred the image of marriage, causing couples to choose living together without marriage to become the norm, and same sex couples to see marriage as their right.

The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite.


Are these your words?  You kind of made it seem like these are from an abbot.
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« Reply #504 on: June 27, 2013, 09:00:02 AM »

Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "
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« Reply #505 on: June 27, 2013, 09:23:45 AM »

Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 09:37:30 AM by john_mo » Logged

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« Reply #506 on: June 27, 2013, 11:56:00 AM »

Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.

If you don't read it as a whole you start to make what you want of it, just like many people do with the Bible. If you read the last part, the abbot makes a point that it is indeed a sin.

"The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite."

 "The secret sins" is implying all situation ethics, which would include the drug use.

Why do we keep trying to justify our sins!? 

 













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« Reply #507 on: June 27, 2013, 12:13:13 PM »

Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.

If you don't read it as a whole you start to make what you want of it, just like many people do with the Bible. If you read the last part, the abbot makes a point that it is indeed a sin.

"The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite."

 "The secret sins" is implying all situation ethics, which would include the drug use.

Why do we keep trying to justify our sins!?  

 

I ask that you please try and take a rational, well thought-out approach to this.  I don't find your moralizing  and finger pointing helpful, especially when we are trying to find out if something is in fact morally wrong or not to begin with.  Throwing abortion, pornography, and infidelity to add moral clout to your opinion actually clouds the issue. The subject is not "is sin bad", but rather "is marijuana a sin". So the part where the mystery abbot says that God can see our sins is neither here nor there.

Did you read what I wrote?  Did you read what you wrote?  As I explained, the anonymous abbot you quoted is saying that buying illegal drugs is a sin because it fuels violence with drug cartels. Yes or no? This says nothing of the person who grows their own marijuana for recreational use.

This is similar to your previous contribution where you quoted a saint who came down hard on someone who was addicted to cigarettes and not believing they can quit. Completely different issue.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 12:26:45 PM by john_mo » Logged

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« Reply #508 on: June 27, 2013, 03:15:45 PM »

I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.
At least you are making it clear its your opinion based on our experience.  I respect that and thank you for it even though I disagree.


I believe I made it clear as to why I have that opinion. Its a widely held opinion in the medical community. I'll post the link again.

From the University of Washingtons Alcohol and Drug abuse institute

Does smoking marijuana cause schizophrenia?

Psychosis refers to a number of mental illnesses where people experience difficulty in telling what is real and what is not. Someone suffering from a psychosis might hear voices that are not really there (hallucinations), or believe things that are not true (delusions). Schizophrenia is a form of psychosis.

Hallucinations and delusions can also be accompanied by muddled thinking and speech, making it difficult for other people to understand the person.

There have been reports of people experiencing these psychotic symptoms after smoking a lot of marijuana or more marijuana than they are used to. This is rare and the symptoms, although frightening at the time, usually go away if use of marijuana is stopped. marijuana has been shown to make psychotic symptoms worse in those who already have a psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia.

Some claim that marijuana can cause schizophrenia. Evidence suggests that marijuana may somehow trigger schizophrenia in those who are already at risk of developing the disorder. Those with a vulnerability to develop schizophrenia, such as having a family history of the illness, should be strongly advised against using marijuana for this reason.

http://adai.uw.edu/marijuana/factsheets/mentalhealth.htm


Understand that I am not claiming that MJ is totally harmless. Like any substance that one would use for recreation there can be consequences to its use. But based on the evidence I've seen and the medical research and statistics that are readily available to anyone MJ is the most benigin recreational substance one could use. So benign in fact that the bulwark of the harm that is inflicted upon society in relation to MJ is its continued criminalization. This criminalization has helped increase the US prison population to the highest numbers in the industrialized world. Put bluntly the prohibition of MJ and our war on drugs has been an absoulte disaster especially for communities of color.
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« Reply #509 on: June 27, 2013, 07:07:23 PM »

I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.

But of course you aren't going to say exactly what you find wrong with it, are you?
Not on a cell phone.  Especially when these things have been hashed out previously.
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« Reply #510 on: June 27, 2013, 07:09:44 PM »

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know.

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics.

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.

Nothing wrong with watching pornography, we tell ourselves, forgetting that the demand for pornography enslaves many poor young women (and men) in a form of prostitution, all for our sexual gratification. Pornography has become one of the major addictions of our time, keeping large numbers of people in bondage, and preventing sound healthy relationships.

Situation ethics has convinced women that since they have the right to make decisions concerning their own bodies, aborting the fetus is allowable if their own life style will be negatively affected. Nothing about the rights of the unborn, who have no voice whatsoever.

Situation ethics as blurred the image of marriage, causing couples to choose living together without marriage to become the norm, and same sex couples to see marriage as their right.

The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite.

Good post!
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« Reply #511 on: June 27, 2013, 11:48:59 PM »

We need to take a step back from the human element here, it is too close to us. But who here, with a 14 year old humanzee, upon finding pot in their room, wouldn't be frustrated and angry? Follow your heart...
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« Reply #512 on: June 28, 2013, 12:20:42 AM »

So you're saying we should send it to the YMCA?
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« Reply #513 on: June 28, 2013, 12:22:37 AM »

So you're saying we should send it to the YMCA?

Your humanzee?  I don't think so. That seems like animal neglect. Or is it child neglect?  Science will most likely demonstrate some day that some humanzees are inclined by nature/genetics to use pot. We need to use a firm but sympathetic hand with them.
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« Reply #514 on: June 28, 2013, 12:30:32 AM »

We need to use a firm but sympathetic hand with them.

So we beat them while assuring them "This hurts me more than it hurts you"...got it!
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« Reply #515 on: June 28, 2013, 02:02:22 AM »


Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.



This is irrelevant, as most of the marijuana in the US that is sold in dispensaries is home-grown.
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« Reply #516 on: June 28, 2013, 03:08:20 AM »

I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.

But of course you aren't going to say exactly what you find wrong with it, are you?
Not on a cell phone.  Especially when these things have been hashed out previously.

Dude, you said hash . . .
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« Reply #517 on: June 28, 2013, 04:44:53 AM »

Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.

If you don't read it as a whole you start to make what you want of it, just like many people do with the Bible. If you read the last part, the abbot makes a point that it is indeed a sin.

"The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite."

 "The secret sins" is implying all situation ethics, which would include the drug use.

Why do we keep trying to justify our sins!?  

 

I ask that you please try and take a rational, well thought-out approach to this.  I don't find your moralizing  and finger pointing helpful, especially when we are trying to find out if something is in fact morally wrong or not to begin with.  Throwing abortion, pornography, and infidelity to add moral clout to your opinion actually clouds the issue. The subject is not "is sin bad", but rather "is marijuana a sin". So the part where the mystery abbot says that God can see our sins is neither here nor there.

Did you read what I wrote?  Did you read what you wrote?  As I explained, the anonymous abbot you quoted is saying that buying illegal drugs is a sin because it fuels violence with drug cartels. Yes or no? This says nothing of the person who grows their own marijuana for recreational use.

This is similar to your previous contribution where you quoted a saint who came down hard on someone who was addicted to cigarettes and not believing they can quit. Completely different issue.


Lord have mercy, please forgive me if I upset you John. I am sorry if it seemed like I was pointing fingers, I was generalizing and didn't say names as to not point fingers, but it may have come off as I was. It wasn't my intention and I am sorry.

The Abbot's name does not matter, it's besides the point.

May the Holy Spirit guide my words to help those in need.

In  Galatians 5:21 we read
"Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. "

Drunkenness (if you ask your priest) isn't just from drink. It's putting your body and mind in a state of being in which God did not intend it to be. You smoke only for yourself, to consume it, to consume for enjoyment is gluttony. Your wanting it for the pleasure of the state it puts you in is pride.

It keeps you away from God, you are no longer connected with God because you are in an altered state of being. Sin is nothing but separation from God. Our Blessed Theotokos did not sin, that is to say, she was always with God, she never was separated from Him. When you smoke cannabis you are putting that prideful, gluttonous, passion of the flesh (I say flesh because it alters the body) above God because God should be the source of your entire life and therefor by putting it above God you are removing Him as the center of your life and therefor separating Him from you. Again, separation from God = sin.

Here is one more example and I hope will put the nail on this coffin.
Luke 10:27 we read, "And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
What is Cannabis? It is a psychoactive drug, that means it acts primarily upon the central nervous system where it affects brain function. We know the mind is the Nous, also known as intellect. In Orthodox Christianity the nous is also known as the eye of the soul. Soul is created in the image of God. Since God is Trinitarian, Mankind is Nous, Word and Spirit. Therefore, how can you possibly be following this , the first and greatest commandment as noted "all your mind" if you are affecting it to function in an alternate way.

My own personal opinion and rant, why even bother and why take the risk. Christ gave his life, he was tortured and died for me, for you, for all of us to save us. That is the ultimate sacrifice. And what do we do, we keep asking how much more can we have. We have jobs, money- so much of it we are rich, filthy rich compared to most Countries. We have more food than we need, more clothes than we need. We have so much, but do we deserve any of it? No, we are filthy, wretched sinners, but yet we are like kids who keep asking their parents, can I have more and more. Now this, why add another thing to the list, why marijuana, why even bother. If you don't know if it is sin or not, then we shouldn't even go there, do what your priest tells you. Will it benefit us and get us to the Kingdom if we smoke it, probably not. So why do we need to analyze these things? Because we we prideful, we only care about ourselves, we only care about the flesh, about sensual pleasures. If we loved Christ we wouldn't try to get more, we would give ourselves instead. Give it up, we need to give up our stupid pleasures that don't help us and we should struggle more, and live by the commandments. Instead of smoking pot, read the psalter, get high from prostrations, struggle for Christ. The narrow road is hard to find, and I would bet it's not filled with pass time smoking hobbies.

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« Reply #518 on: June 29, 2013, 06:37:26 PM »

Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
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« Reply #519 on: June 29, 2013, 06:44:13 PM »

Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
true that.
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« Reply #520 on: June 29, 2013, 08:03:42 PM »

Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
Well, it's all bad so...
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« Reply #521 on: June 29, 2013, 08:49:29 PM »

If moderate alcohol use isn't a sin I fail to see how marijuana is.
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« Reply #522 on: June 29, 2013, 10:48:59 PM »

If moderate alcohol use isn't a sin I fail to see how marijuana is.
I explained how in this thread.
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« Reply #523 on: June 29, 2013, 11:00:31 PM »

Yeah but you're wrong. Alcohol is terrible for you. Working in health care I see the effects of it on society I see none of the same effects from MJ. Alcohol belongs in the same class of drugs as cocaine and other hard drugs. If moderate use of Alcohol isn't a sin than neither is MJ.
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« Reply #524 on: June 29, 2013, 11:29:26 PM »

Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
Well, it's all bad so...
meh
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« Reply #525 on: June 30, 2013, 04:31:17 AM »

Yeah but you're wrong.
That's one opinion.  One not shared by an honest rational thinker.  Besides, if you had actually read my explaination which is in this thread more than once, you would understand why what you posted made little sense.  I realize there are a lot of posts, but my views on this are clear.
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« Reply #526 on: June 30, 2013, 04:35:27 AM »

Working in health care I see the effects of it on society I see none of the same effects from MJ.
Try the view from a law enforcement perspective.  You'll see a lot of stuff you never see from you view point.
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« Reply #527 on: June 30, 2013, 04:37:59 AM »

Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
Well, it's all bad so...
meh
How is this any different than saying, "Watching bad porn is definitely a sin."

That's right, you're one of the ones who think porn is perfectly ok.  Nevermind. 
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« Reply #528 on: June 30, 2013, 06:03:56 AM »

How is this any different than saying, "Watching bad porn is definitely a sin."

That's right, you're one of the ones who think porn is perfectly ok.  Nevermind. 

Really? I thought I was the only one who thought that at this site. If I'm not, this would be most welcome. Smiley
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« Reply #529 on: June 30, 2013, 06:58:34 AM »

Allow me to make an attempt to clarify for those who do not understand where I am coming from.  I have previously stated the difference between alcohol and marijuana is you can consume a certain amount of alcohol without feeling its affects or having those affects impair your motor and cognitive functions.  As we all know, after that certain amount, you do feel its affect or have those affects impair your abilities.  This is called drunkenness (or intoxication), which no one argues is a sin as it is explicitly called a sin within the Holy Scriptures.

Can the same be said for MJ?  I say no.  Why?  Simple, I do not believe anyone can consume any amount which would not affect their physical or cognitive functions.  If a person “could”, they would have to work very hard at it to make this the case, such as walking into a room with second hand smoke, suck it a very small amount, stop breathing and run out of the room and say, “Hey, look, I just breathed in some MJ and it didn’t do anything to me".  Of course, this would be utterly ridiculous, but I know how some people think. 

However, for the sake of discussion, let’s assume a miniscule portion of the human race can consume large amounts of this drug and experience absolutely nothing whatsoever.  Now, again, for the sake of discussion, these folks have already consumed MJ, it did nothing for them, ask them if they would smoke MJ again.  What do you think they would say?  They would say no, because it did nothing for them.  Sounds reasonable, yes?  So, if it did nothing for them, no matter the amount consumed, what is the point of consuming it?  There is none, so they would not.  What does this tell you?  It clearly shows people consume MJ for the result of its intoxicants, whether recreational or medicinal (yeah, right).   So it would be fair to say people consume MJ for the intoxicants, yes?  Otherwise, they would not consume it at all, especially in a recreational fashion.  Now, if a person who is altered by the intoxicants of MJ ingests MJ, what happens?  They get high, very quickly. Since this has been clarified, what is an intoxicated state?  Drunkenness.  Is Drunkenness sinful?  Yes.  This sort of puts an end to the question.  Of course, there will always be someone, somewhere looking to punch holes into anything to justify the act of sin (porn is sex and sex is natural, people are “born” homosexual, recreational use of drugs calms people, there is no such thing as fornication, killing unborn babies is ok because they dont yet have a job, or some other nonsensical argument), but at the end of the day, wrong is wrong, sin is sin, and if you partake of a substance for the sake of feeling its intoxicants, i.e., to get high, it’s a sin.

One day, when folks don’t just physically grow up, but mentally and emotionally grow up, they will understand the arguments of their youth are filled with recklessness.
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« Reply #530 on: June 30, 2013, 08:44:44 AM »

Allow me to make an attempt to clarify for those who do not understand where I am coming from.  I have previously stated the difference between alcohol and marijuana is you can consume a certain amount of alcohol without feeling its affects or having those affects impair your motor and cognitive functions.  As we all know, after that certain amount, you do feel its affect or have those affects impair your abilities.  This is called drunkenness (or intoxication), which no one argues is a sin as it is explicitly called a sin within the Holy Scriptures.

Can the same be said for MJ?  I say no.  Why?  Simple, I do not believe anyone can consume any amount which would not affect their physical or cognitive functions.  If a person “could”, they would have to work very hard at it to make this the case, such as walking into a room with second hand smoke, suck it a very small amount, stop breathing and run out of the room and say, “Hey, look, I just breathed in some MJ and it didn’t do anything to me".  Of course, this would be utterly ridiculous, but I know how some people think. 

However, for the sake of discussion, let’s assume a miniscule portion of the human race can consume large amounts of this drug and experience absolutely nothing whatsoever.  Now, again, for the sake of discussion, these folks have already consumed MJ, it did nothing for them, ask them if they would smoke MJ again.  What do you think they would say?  They would say no, because it did nothing for them.  Sounds reasonable, yes?  So, if it did nothing for them, no matter the amount consumed, what is the point of consuming it?  There is none, so they would not.  What does this tell you?  It clearly shows people consume MJ for the result of its intoxicants, whether recreational or medicinal (yeah, right).   So it would be fair to say people consume MJ for the intoxicants, yes?  Otherwise, they would not consume it at all, especially in a recreational fashion.  Now, if a person who is altered by the intoxicants of MJ ingests MJ, what happens?  They get high, very quickly. Since this has been clarified, what is an intoxicated state?  Drunkenness.  Is Drunkenness sinful?  Yes.  This sort of puts an end to the question.  Of course, there will always be someone, somewhere looking to punch holes into anything to justify the act of sin (porn is sex and sex is natural, people are “born” homosexual, recreational use of drugs calms people, there is no such thing as fornication, killing unborn babies is ok because they dont yet have a job, or some other nonsensical argument), but at the end of the day, wrong is wrong, sin is sin, and if you partake of a substance for the sake of feeling its intoxicants, i.e., to get high, it’s a sin.

One day, when folks don’t just physically grow up, but mentally and emotionally grow up, they will understand the arguments of their youth are filled with recklessness.


You're wrong, anybody can consume marijuana and not feel effects. Plenty of people I know didn't feel anything for the first time they tried it.
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« Reply #531 on: June 30, 2013, 09:12:28 AM »

How is this any different than saying, "Watching bad porn is definitely a sin."

That's right, you're one of the ones who think porn is perfectly ok.  Nevermind. 

Really? I thought I was the only one who thought that at this site. If I'm not, this would be most welcome. Smiley
yeah me too. I'm so glad we found out about each other. Viva el porno!
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« Reply #532 on: June 30, 2013, 09:25:31 AM »

also, that was a funny post, Kerdy.
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« Reply #533 on: June 30, 2013, 10:24:50 AM »

Yeah but you're wrong.
That's one opinion.  One not shared by an honest rational thinker.  Besides, if you had actually read my explaination which is in this thread more than once, you would understand why what you posted made little sense.  I realize there are a lot of posts, but my views on this are clear.

You have never smoked marijuana so you explanations are as worth as trash. And you are the one far from being honest or rational thinker here blabling about things you know nothing about.
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« Reply #534 on: June 30, 2013, 11:38:38 AM »

Yeah but you're wrong.
That's one opinion.  One not shared by an honest rational thinker.  Besides, if you had actually read my explaination which is in this thread more than once, you would understand why what you posted made little sense.  I realize there are a lot of posts, but my views on this are clear.

You have never smoked marijuana so you explanations are as worth as trash. And you are the one far from being honest or rational thinker here blabling about things you know nothing about.

Thank you! Now I'm off to church!
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« Reply #535 on: June 30, 2013, 11:20:24 PM »



You're wrong, anybody can consume marijuana and not feel effects. Plenty of people I know didn't feel anything for the first time they tried it.

You might not feel the effects but they still happen to your body. Marijuana use impairs a person's ability to form new memories and (I stress and because this is a second statement) to shift focus. THC also disrupts coordination and balance by binding to receptors in the cerebellum and basal ganglia—parts of the brain that regulate balance, posture, coordination, and reaction time. Therefore, learning, doing complicated tasks, participating in athletics, and driving are also affected.

Within a few minutes after inhaling marijuana smoke, an individual's heart rate speeds up, the bronchial passages relax and become enlarged, and blood vessels in the eyes expand, making the eyes look red. The heart rate—normally 70 to 80 beats per minute—may increase by 20 to 50 beats per minute, or may even double in some cases. Taking other drugs with marijuana can amplify this effect.

Evidence suggests that a person's risk of heart attack during the first hour after smoking marijuana is four times his or her usual risk. This observation could be partly explained by marijuana raising blood pressure (in some cases) and heart rate and reducing the blood's capacity to carry oxygen.

The smoke of marijuana, like that of tobacco, consists of a toxic mixture of gases and particulates, many of which are known to be harmful to the lungs. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers do, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illnesses, and a greater risk of lung infections. Even infrequent marijuana use can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, often accompanied by a heavy cough. One study found that extra sick days used by frequent marijuana smokers were often because of respiratory illnesses.

In addition, marijuana has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens—up to 70 percent more than tobacco smoke. It also induces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their cancer-causing form, which could accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells. And since marijuana smokers generally inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers, the lungs are exposed longer to carcinogenic smoke. However, while several lines of evidence have suggested that marijuana use may lead to lung cancer, the supporting evidence is inconclusive. The presence of an unidentified active ingredient in cannabis smoke having protective properties—if corroborated and properly characterized—could help explain the inconsistencies and modest findings.

On and on and on and on, seriously, stop smoking and worship the Lord your God with all your mind, not half of it.
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« Reply #536 on: July 01, 2013, 04:46:12 AM »

Allow me to make an attempt to clarify for those who do not understand where I am coming from.  I have previously stated the difference between alcohol and marijuana is you can consume a certain amount of alcohol without feeling its affects or having those affects impair your motor and cognitive functions.  As we all know, after that certain amount, you do feel its affect or have those affects impair your abilities.  This is called drunkenness (or intoxication), which no one argues is a sin as it is explicitly called a sin within the Holy Scriptures.

Can the same be said for MJ?  I say no.  Why?  Simple, I do not believe anyone can consume any amount which would not affect their physical or cognitive functions.  If a person “could”, they would have to work very hard at it to make this the case, such as walking into a room with second hand smoke, suck it a very small amount, stop breathing and run out of the room and say, “Hey, look, I just breathed in some MJ and it didn’t do anything to me".  Of course, this would be utterly ridiculous, but I know how some people think. 

However, for the sake of discussion, let’s assume a miniscule portion of the human race can consume large amounts of this drug and experience absolutely nothing whatsoever.  Now, again, for the sake of discussion, these folks have already consumed MJ, it did nothing for them, ask them if they would smoke MJ again.  What do you think they would say?  They would say no, because it did nothing for them.  Sounds reasonable, yes?  So, if it did nothing for them, no matter the amount consumed, what is the point of consuming it?  There is none, so they would not.  What does this tell you?  It clearly shows people consume MJ for the result of its intoxicants, whether recreational or medicinal (yeah, right).   So it would be fair to say people consume MJ for the intoxicants, yes?  Otherwise, they would not consume it at all, especially in a recreational fashion.  Now, if a person who is altered by the intoxicants of MJ ingests MJ, what happens?  They get high, very quickly. Since this has been clarified, what is an intoxicated state?  Drunkenness.  Is Drunkenness sinful?  Yes.  This sort of puts an end to the question.  Of course, there will always be someone, somewhere looking to punch holes into anything to justify the act of sin (porn is sex and sex is natural, people are “born” homosexual, recreational use of drugs calms people, there is no such thing as fornication, killing unborn babies is ok because they dont yet have a job, or some other nonsensical argument), but at the end of the day, wrong is wrong, sin is sin, and if you partake of a substance for the sake of feeling its intoxicants, i.e., to get high, it’s a sin.

One day, when folks don’t just physically grow up, but mentally and emotionally grow up, they will understand the arguments of their youth are filled with recklessness.


You're wrong, anybody can consume marijuana and not feel effects. Plenty of people I know didn't feel anything for the first time they tried it.

Then tell me, what was the point of consuming it if there were no effects.  As I stated, if a person is consuming MJ, the purpose is to get high.
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« Reply #537 on: July 01, 2013, 04:46:51 AM »

also, that was a funny post, Kerdy.

In what way?  Because its so obvious everyone should know?
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« Reply #538 on: July 01, 2013, 04:52:04 AM »

Yeah but you're wrong.
That's one opinion.  One not shared by an honest rational thinker.  Besides, if you had actually read my explaination which is in this thread more than once, you would understand why what you posted made little sense.  I realize there are a lot of posts, but my views on this are clear.

You have never smoked marijuana so you explanations are as worth as trash. And you are the one far from being honest or rational thinker here blabling about things you know nothing about.

I will tell you what I have said countless times  before, probably the last time you spewed this idiocy...apply this concept to other topics and see if it always works (especially since it didn’t work here).  It does not.

For instance:

You have never murdered anyone so you explanations are as worth as trash.

You have never raped anyone so you explanations are as worth as trash.

You have never robbed a bank so you explanations are as worth as trash.

You have never (insert any wrongful act here) so you explanations are as worth as trash.

I hope you see your ignorance in this type of declaration, but I highly doubt you will.  Those who attempt with every fiber of their being to rationalize sin are the ones with a vested interest in the outcome of their rationalization of that sin.

BTW - The EFC's did not do a lot of things, but they openly spoke against them.  Would you, in your youthful arrogance, vomit the same retort to them?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 04:56:35 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
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« Reply #539 on: July 01, 2013, 04:58:01 AM »

Yeah but you're wrong.
That's one opinion.  One not shared by an honest rational thinker.  Besides, if you had actually read my explaination which is in this thread more than once, you would understand why what you posted made little sense.  I realize there are a lot of posts, but my views on this are clear.

You have never smoked marijuana so you explanations are as worth as trash. And you are the one far from being honest or rational thinker here blabling about things you know nothing about.
Additionally, if this is how you truly feel on such matters, why do you continue to chime in on topics in which you have no experience?  Double standard much?

And for the record, I have plenty of experience with MJ.  Just not from the drooling side.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 04:59:16 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Tags: sin Orthodox Christian Fellowship marijuana alcohol drugs bee in bonnet pot weed 
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