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Offline jewish voice

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If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« on: September 23, 2014, 01:24:07 PM »
If I was to become orthodox why should another pay for my sins or my ex wife sin? If I was to remarry and my new wife was never married why must she pay in having a less honorable wedding in the church? Why must she pay for something she had nothing to do with? Pls answer

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 01:30:30 PM »
If I was to become orthodox why should another pay for my sins or my ex wife sin?

Please elabourate. 

Quote
If I was to remarry and my new wife was never married why must she pay in having a less honorable wedding in the church?

As far as I know, she wouldn't.  For her sake, the Church would allow the usual wedding.  If anything, you would be deprived. 

Quote
Why must she pay for something she had nothing to do with? Pls answer

Well, in the specific case of the wedding rite, she wouldn't.  In the larger context of the marriage, it's not so much "why must she pay" as it is "whoever you marry, there you are". 
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Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 01:42:19 PM »
I'm sure someone else can answer this better than I, but I don't think anyone is punished or considered to be less honorable if you were not a Christian at the time of your first marriage and divorce. At baptism, we are a new creation, old things are put away and all things become new.
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Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 02:04:21 PM »
If I was to become orthodox why should another pay for my sins or my ex wife sin?

Please elabourate. 

Quote
If I was to remarry and my new wife was never married why must she pay in having a less honorable wedding in the church?

As far as I know, she wouldn't.  For her sake, the Church would allow the usual wedding.  If anything, you would be deprived. 

Quote
Why must she pay for something she had nothing to do with? Pls answer

Well, in the specific case of the wedding rite, she wouldn't.  In the larger context of the marriage, it's not so much "why must she pay" as it is "whoever you marry, there you are". 
I'm divorced so that's my sin I guess in the church's eye's . I'm understanding that if I remarry and happen to become orthodox then if my new wife wasn't married before she has to have like a second class wedding whatever all your wedding is all about. I've never been to one in orthodox. I been seeing all these divorce threads and got me thinking. That's my sin and my ex wife sin why must my new wife pay for that

Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 02:09:22 PM »
I'm sure someone else can answer this better than I, but I don't think anyone is punished or considered to be less honorable if you were not a Christian at the time of your first marriage and divorce. At baptism, we are a new creation, old things are put away and all things become new.
that's what I was thinking but long time ago I look at Roman Catholic they acted like I have to do their who divorce then I was like um no I was a Jew my ex-wife was a Jew I'm not bound by your law at that time and if I convert my ex-wife isn't bound by some laws she don't hold to. I just left saying messed up lol I guess their Jesus don't forgive so I moved on in my search

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 02:21:30 PM »
I'm sure someone else can answer this better than I, but I don't think anyone is punished or considered to be less honorable if you were not a Christian at the time of your first marriage and divorce. At baptism, we are a new creation, old things are put away and all things become new.
that's what I was thinking but long time ago I look at Roman Catholic they acted like I have to do their who divorce then I was like um no I was a Jew my ex-wife was a Jew I'm not bound by your law at that time and if I convert my ex-wife isn't bound by some laws she don't hold to. I just left saying messed up lol I guess their Jesus don't forgive so I moved on in my search
I don't know much about divorce in the Roman Catholic Church other than the fact that it is pretty much a big no-no, but I do know Orthodox Christians who were divorced and have since remarried, and I have personally never seen any indication of anyone thinking any less of their marriage. I believe some of the Oriental Orthodox jurisdiction are much stricter on issues regarding divorce; that may be an overall cultural issue or maybe there is theological basis for it, I can't speak to that because I'm not OO, but perhaps someone with more knowledge on that will come along.

One more addtl comment if I may, these sorts of issues are really ancillary to the greater truth of who God is, who Jesus is, etc. There are many issues I struggled with as I learned about Orthodoxy because they just didn't seem right to me, but as I worked through them I realized that if I am willing to trust the Church on the big things, I need to be willing to trust them on the smaller things as well. Of course, that trust is something that is built up over time, no one expects someone who is just learning about the Church to swallow everything hook, line and sinker, but figuring out what you believe about God is more important that what some people in the religion might think about your potential future spouse. People can and will be jerks or lovely regardless of their theological persuasion, but the teachings that are taught are either right or wrong, truth or falsehood.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 02:23:12 PM »
I'm divorced so that's my sin I guess in the church's eye's . I'm understanding that if I remarry and happen to become orthodox then if my new wife wasn't married before she has to have like a second class wedding whatever all your wedding is all about. I've never been to one in orthodox. I been seeing all these divorce threads and got me thinking. That's my sin and my ex wife sin why must my new wife pay for that

I'm going to assume that you were never Orthodox.  Is/was the candidate for "new wife" Orthodox?
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 02:31:09 PM »
I'm divorced so that's my sin I guess in the church's eye's . I'm understanding that if I remarry and happen to become orthodox then if my new wife wasn't married before she has to have like a second class wedding whatever all your wedding is all about. I've never been to one in orthodox. I been seeing all these divorce threads and got me thinking. That's my sin and my ex wife sin why must my new wife pay for that

I'm going to assume that you were never Orthodox.  Is/was the candidate for "new wife" Orthodox?
I don't have a candidate yet  :P but I'm asking before I convert or consider it as my experience with Roman Catholic deal makes me ask these questions

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 02:43:26 PM »
I'm divorced so that's my sin I guess in the church's eye's . I'm understanding that if I remarry and happen to become orthodox then if my new wife wasn't married before she has to have like a second class wedding whatever all your wedding is all about. I've never been to one in orthodox. I been seeing all these divorce threads and got me thinking. That's my sin and my ex wife sin why must my new wife pay for that

I'm going to assume that you were never Orthodox.  Is/was the candidate for "new wife" Orthodox?
I don't have a candidate yet  :P but I'm asking before I convert or consider it as my experience with Roman Catholic deal makes me ask these questions

1.  If you are not and were never Orthodox, and your new wife is not and was never Orthodox, you would not be getting married in the Orthodox Church, wherever else you do end up getting married.  So there's no "second class wedding" unless you make it so. 

2.  If you are not and were never Orthodox, and your new wife is or was Orthodox, and she wants to get married in the Church, then, if you are allowed to enter into a "mixed marriage" (and there are jurisdictions which allow this), I don't think the Church is going to make her go through the rite for second marriage when she was never married before.  For her sake, it will likely be the regular marriage rite. 

3.  If you are not and were never Orthodox, and your new wife is or was Orthodox, but she doesn't want to get married in the Church, then see no. 1.

What if you marry and then convert to Orthodoxy?

4.  If no. 1, there will not necessarily be an Orthodox wedding to go through. 

5.  If no. 2, see no. 4. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 02:57:32 PM »
I'm divorced so that's my sin I guess in the church's eye's . I'm understanding that if I remarry and happen to become orthodox then if my new wife wasn't married before she has to have like a second class wedding whatever all your wedding is all about. I've never been to one in orthodox. I been seeing all these divorce threads and got me thinking. That's my sin and my ex wife sin why must my new wife pay for that

I'm going to assume that you were never Orthodox.  Is/was the candidate for "new wife" Orthodox?
I don't have a candidate yet  :P but I'm asking before I convert or consider it as my experience with Roman Catholic deal makes me ask these questions

1.  If you are not and were never Orthodox, and your new wife is not and was never Orthodox, you would not be getting married in the Orthodox Church, wherever else you do end up getting married.  So there's no "second class wedding" unless you make it so. 

2.  If you are not and were never Orthodox, and your new wife is or was Orthodox, and she wants to get married in the Church, then, if you are allowed to enter into a "mixed marriage" (and there are jurisdictions which allow this), I don't think the Church is going to make her go through the rite for second marriage when she was never married before.  For her sake, it will likely be the regular marriage rite. 

3.  If you are not and were never Orthodox, and your new wife is or was Orthodox, but she doesn't want to get married in the Church, then see no. 1.

What if you marry and then convert to Orthodoxy?

4.  If no. 1, there will not necessarily be an Orthodox wedding to go through. 

5.  If no. 2, see no. 4. 
I feel like I'm reading one of those "Make your own Adventure" books.  :P
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Offline Paisius

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 06:06:48 PM »
If neither you or your wife are Orthodox then a first marriage will not be held against you in any way. If you decide to have a church ceremony it will be the ceremony for a first marriage. In fact the Greek Archdiocese here in the US requires converts who are already married to have a church ceremony after conversion.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 06:07:47 PM by Paisius »

Offline WPM

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 07:01:11 PM »
I'll pay for the candles in the dollar box. (Every other Sunday)

Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 07:06:44 PM »
I'll pay for the candles in the dollar box. (Every other Sunday)
okay but your not orthodox like me so they might kick us out ceilings might fall if we walk in  :laugh:

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 07:17:17 PM »
I'm divorced so that's my sin I guess in the church's eye's . I'm understanding that if I remarry and happen to become orthodox then if my new wife wasn't married before she has to have like a second class wedding whatever all your wedding is all about. I've never been to one in orthodox. I been seeing all these divorce threads and got me thinking. That's my sin and my ex wife sin why must my new wife pay for that

Have you been baptized? If you were never baptized, then at your Holy Baptism, you would be a new creation, and all your sins will be forgiven. You would put on the white robe, but you would also be expected to keep it clean with the grace of God. Accepting baptism is not only an awesome responsibility but also the beginning of your Christian walk with Christ where you are purified (Holy Baptism), illuminated (Holy Chrismation), and sanctified (Holy Communion).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 07:21:11 PM by Maria »
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Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 08:46:57 PM »
cauz thats how we dooz it!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 08:47:41 PM by Nikolaostheservant »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 09:05:25 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
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Offline Paisius

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 09:18:35 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.


I'll quote you because that is true........ ;)

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 09:20:38 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.

If a bride and groom are being married and one has been married before, then for the sake of the never-married spouse, there will be a Crowning, not a penitential second wedding. If both have prior marriages, then there will not be a Crowning, but a penitential wedding service.

This was the OCA policy.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 09:21:41 PM by Maria »
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Offline Paisius

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 09:34:00 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.

If a bride and groom are being married and one has been married before, then for the sake of the never-married spouse, there will be a Crowning, not a penitential second wedding. If both have prior marriages, then there will not be a Crowning, but a penitential wedding service.

This was the OCA policy.



Mmm I don't think so.

Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 05:29:12 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
yep but I don't know what that really means so in the church's eye's it's a second class wedding. Again why would she have to pay for my sin or my ex-wife sin.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 05:40:01 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
yep but I don't know what that really means so in the church's eye's it's a second class wedding. Again why would she have to pay for my sin or my ex-wife sin.

You're going to have to define "second class wedding" and "first class wedding", since it seems the Church's categories are not your own.   
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 05:55:16 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
yep but I don't know what that really means so in the church's eye's it's a second class wedding. Again why would she have to pay for my sin or my ex-wife sin.

I am not sure if you misunderstand what I wrote.  You said you don't know what that means, so let us know what "first class" and "second class" mean so we can help you out at least.
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Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 06:06:17 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
yep but I don't know what that really means so in the church's eye's it's a second class wedding. Again why would she have to pay for my sin or my ex-wife sin.

I am not sure if you misunderstand what I wrote.  You said you don't know what that means, so let us know what "first class" and "second class" mean so we can help you out at least.
first class would mean full on all the rites second class would be lesser rites then someone else.
I never been to an orthodox wedding before I have been to many RC before.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 06:14:37 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
yep but I don't know what that really means so in the church's eye's it's a second class wedding. Again why would she have to pay for my sin or my ex-wife sin.

I am not sure if you misunderstand what I wrote.  You said you don't know what that means, so let us know what "first class" and "second class" mean so we can help you out at least.
first class would mean full on all the rites second class would be lesser rites then someone else.
I never been to an orthodox wedding before I have been to many RC before.

OK, so using your definitions and applying it to what Mina told you, what he's saying is that you and your Orthodox spouse, marrying for the first time in the Church, never married in the Church before, etc. would receive a "first class" wedding. 

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 06:18:17 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
yep but I don't know what that really means so in the church's eye's it's a second class wedding. Again why would she have to pay for my sin or my ex-wife sin.

I am not sure if you misunderstand what I wrote.  You said you don't know what that means, so let us know what "first class" and "second class" mean so we can help you out at least.
first class would mean full on all the rites second class would be lesser rites then someone else.
I never been to an orthodox wedding before I have been to many RC before.

OK, so using your definitions and applying it to what Mina told you, what he's saying is that you and your Orthodox spouse, marrying for the first time in the Church, never married in the Church before, etc. would receive a "first class" wedding. 


what is crowning never answered what it was. Why don't second married people get it

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2014, 06:21:32 PM »
I think he's talking about crowning vs. non-crowning, the latter being done for second or third marriages.  I think, I'm not sure, but I think, if you are Orthodox, and you're marrying an Orthodox, and this is both your first Orthodox wedding, there will be crowning.  But don't quote me on this one.
yep but I don't know what that really means so in the church's eye's it's a second class wedding. Again why would she have to pay for my sin or my ex-wife sin.

I am not sure if you misunderstand what I wrote.  You said you don't know what that means, so let us know what "first class" and "second class" mean so we can help you out at least.
first class would mean full on all the rites second class would be lesser rites then someone else.
I never been to an orthodox wedding before I have been to many RC before.

OK, so using your definitions and applying it to what Mina told you, what he's saying is that you and your Orthodox spouse, marrying for the first time in the Church, never married in the Church before, etc. would receive a "first class" wedding. 


what is crowning never answered what it was. Why don't second married people get it

Because a second Orthodox wedding (for both the bride and groom) is a penitential one - a reflection on man's fallen state - an act of economy.

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2014, 06:28:41 PM »
what is crowning never answered what it was. Why don't second married people get it

Quote
The priest offers prayers for the couple and then blesses the
crowns, which are placed on their heads. The crowns symbolize
the glory and honor with which God crowns the bride and
groom. The crowns have two meanings: First, the couple have
come into the Kingdom of God and taken their place as a king
and queen in their marital kingdom. Secondly, the crowns
represent martyrdom. The word “martyr” means “witness.” The
couple bears witness to Christ’s presence in their lives, which
requires both to die to themselves and to give of their lives for
the other. The ribbon joining the crowns represents the unity
of the couple. The crowns are exchanged three times to signify
the sealing of the complete union. Many Orthodox couples
keep the crowns to remind them of the crowns of glory that
will be awarded to them in eternal life if they guard their virtue
in their marriage.

http://www.antiochian.org/sites/default/files/CrownedBooklet.pdf

Since the rite of second marriage is only used when both the bride and bridegroom are on their second marriage, one of the ways in which the rite is stripped down of its ceremonial in order to emphasise its penitential aspect is the lack of the crowning rite.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2014, 06:36:28 PM »
Crowning means you and the spouse getting crowns put on you during the wedding ceremony.  First marriages recieve crowning and ideally is considered the only marriage, where there's no such thing as "till death do you part".  Under the auspices of Orthodox theology, it's the marriage that reflects the eternal relationship between Christ and the Church.  Second marriages WITHIN THE Church (that is your second Orthodox wedding) is treated in a penitential manner, since it is a concession.  Strictly speaking, Orthodoxy advocates an "eternal monogamous relationship" if you choose the route of marriage. Marriage is primarily seen as a way to help you to heaven, secondarily as for multiplying or for "avoiding temptations."

In most churches, you're only allowed two more penitential marriages. 
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2014, 06:38:01 PM »
what is crowning never answered what it was. Why don't second married people get it

Quote
The priest offers prayers for the couple and then blesses the
crowns, which are placed on their heads. The crowns symbolize
the glory and honor with which God crowns the bride and
groom. The crowns have two meanings: First, the couple have
come into the Kingdom of God and taken their place as a king
and queen in their marital kingdom. Secondly, the crowns
represent martyrdom. The word “martyr” means “witness.” The
couple bears witness to Christ’s presence in their lives, which
requires both to die to themselves and to give of their lives for
the other. The ribbon joining the crowns represents the unity
of the couple. The crowns are exchanged three times to signify
the sealing of the complete union. Many Orthodox couples
keep the crowns to remind them of the crowns of glory that
will be awarded to them in eternal life if they guard their virtue
in their marriage.

http://www.antiochian.org/sites/default/files/CrownedBooklet.pdf

Since the rite of second marriage is only used when both the bride and bridegroom are on their second marriage, one of the ways in which the rite is stripped down of its ceremonial in order to emphasise its penitential aspect is the lack of the crowning rite.
Thank you

Offline jewish voice

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Re: If I become Orthodox why should one pay
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2014, 06:39:54 PM »
Crowning means you and the spouse getting crowns put on you during the wedding ceremony.  First marriages recieve crowning and ideally is considered the only marriage, where there's no such thing as "till death do you part".  Under the auspices of Orthodox theology, it's the marriage that reflects the eternal relationship between Christ and the Church.  Second marriages WITHIN THE Church (that is your second Orthodox wedding) is treated in a penitential manner, since it is a concession.  Strictly speaking, Orthodoxy advocates an "eternal monogamous relationship" if you choose the route of marriage. Marriage is primarily seen as a way to help you to heaven, secondarily as for multiplying or for "avoiding temptations."

In most churches, you're only allowed two more penitential marriages. 
kinda like in Islam marriage completes your religion