a question about Church hierarchy. (Patriarchs, Patriarchates, etc.)

[Timon]

So in the early Church, it was divided up into 5 major Patriarchates: Constantinople, Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.  How are these divided up today? Do different Churches trace their lineage back to these original 5? Why is there not a "Jerusalem Orthodox Church" or an "Alexandrian Orthodox CHurch" like there is an "Antiochian Orthodox CHurch?  Is there a chart that or reference that could help me make sense of this? I think I heard that the Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Constantinople, but which one did the Russian Church, and ultimately the OCA, come from?

Just trying to make sense of some of this. Thanks.

[jmbejdl]

So in the early Church, it was divided up into 5 major Patriarchates: Constantinople, Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.  How are these divided up today? Do different Churches trace their lineage back to these original 5?

Yes. My church's mother church is Constantinople, for instance.

Why is there not a "Jerusalem Orthodox Church" or an "Alexandrian Orthodox CHurch" like there is an "Antiochian Orthodox CHurch?

There are. There is an Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and an Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem. What makes you think they don't exist?

Is there a chart that or reference that could help me make sense of this?

Possibly, but it's pretty straightforward.

I think I heard that the Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Constantinople, but which one did the Russian Church, and ultimately the OCA, come from?

All of these are ultimately traced back to Constantinople

Just trying to make sense of some of this. Thanks.

I hope I was of help

James

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

So in the early Church, it was divided up into 5 major Patriarchates: Constantinople, Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.  How are these divided up today? Do different Churches trace their lineage back to these original 5? Why is there not a "Jerusalem Orthodox Church" or an "Alexandrian Orthodox CHurch" like there is an "Antiochian Orthodox CHurch?  Is there a chart that or reference that could help me make sense of this? I think I heard that the Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Constantinople, but which one did the Russian Church, and ultimately the OCA, come from?

Just trying to make sense of some of this. Thanks.

In the Early Church, there were no Patriarchates; all of the churches were initially house and city churches. Check out your New Testament and you will find many: house churches (Mary's, Lydia's, Prisca and Aquila's, etc.), Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, but also Thessalonika, Ephesus, Corinth, Phillippi, Colossae, Cyprus, etc..

As the Church grew later, the church started to organize herself, mainly along Roman administrative lines, such as dioceses and provinces. The lead bishop was the bishop of a provincial metropolis, the Metropolitan, as shown in the Apostolic Canon 34 (circa late Fourth Century). Eventually some of these metropolitans became known as patriarchs or popes (Rome and Alexandria, among others). At this date, there are a number of autocephalous and autonomous or self-ruled Orthodox Churches the canonical Orthodox churches; the list is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church#Organization_and_leadership by scrolling down to "Eastern Orthodox churches in communion."

[Timon]

Why is there not a "Jerusalem Orthodox Church" or an "Alexandrian Orthodox CHurch" like there is an "Antiochian Orthodox CHurch?

There are. There is an Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and an Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem. What makes you think they don't exist?

I know those are real things, but ive never heard of the "Alexandrian Orthodox Church."  Ive just heard that, for example, (and this may not be accurate, but thats why im asking the question) that the Romanian Orthodox Church is under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. I guess what I am asking is which Churches (Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Bulgarian, Serbian, etc.) are under/based out of which major Patriarchate.

[Timon]

So in the early Church, it was divided up into 5 major Patriarchates: Constantinople, Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.  How are these divided up today? Do different Churches trace their lineage back to these original 5? Why is there not a "Jerusalem Orthodox Church" or an "Alexandrian Orthodox CHurch" like there is an "Antiochian Orthodox CHurch?  Is there a chart that or reference that could help me make sense of this? I think I heard that the Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Constantinople, but which one did the Russian Church, and ultimately the OCA, come from?

Just trying to make sense of some of this. Thanks.

In the Early Church, there were no Patriarchates; all of the churches were initially house and city churches. Check out your New Testament and you will find many: house churches (Mary's, Lydia's, Prisca and Aquila's, etc.), Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, but also Thessalonika, Ephesus, Corinth, Phillippi, Colossae, Cyprus, etc..

I guess I didnt mean THAT early. I meant after the CHurch had already settled in those major 5.

[walter1234]

When the Apostles formed the Church in 33A.D. , was it already an institution?

When did the Christians convert the Church to an organization?

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

When did the Christians convert the Church to an organization?

Very early on; I think not later than the Council of Jerusalem, 50 AD.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

So in the early Church, it was divided up into 5 major Patriarchates: Constantinople, Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.  How are these divided up today? Do different Churches trace their lineage back to these original 5? Why is there not a "Jerusalem Orthodox Church" or an "Alexandrian Orthodox CHurch" like there is an "Antiochian Orthodox CHurch?  Is there a chart that or reference that could help me make sense of this? I think I heard that the Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Constantinople, but which one did the Russian Church, and ultimately the OCA, come from?

Just trying to make sense of some of this. Thanks.

In the Early Church, there were no Patriarchates; all of the churches were initially house and city churches. Check out your New Testament and you will find many: house churches (Mary's, Lydia's, Prisca and Aquila's, etc.), Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, but also Thessalonika, Ephesus, Corinth, Phillippi, Colossae, Cyprus, etc..

I guess I didnt mean THAT early. I meant after the CHurch had already settled in those major 5.

I had a feeling you may not have meant the early, Early Church. That is why I gave the Wiki link. Was that helpful?

[Benjamin the Red]

To the OP:

Essentially, all of the current local autocephalous Churches in the Eastern Orthodox Church trace themselves back to the Byzantine Church, i.e. the Church of Constantinople. That's why the Byzantine rite is the standard across the board for us EOs, which is not the case for the RCs or the OOs. Let me explain.

Second Chance (i.e., Carl) linked to the Wikipedia article for Eastern Orthodoxy. If you go to this section of the article, you will see a list of local churches that belong to the worldwide communion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. The first set, which is bolded, indicates the autocephalous churches (there are 15 of these, or 14....there's a disagreement about whether the OCA is autocephalous or not). The ones listed under those are local churches which are autonomous. That is, they pretty much govern themselves, accept that the church they are under has to confirm their primate (i.e., leading bishop).

Let me list off the current autocephalous churches, and I'll give a brief blurb about each of their origins (i.e., what local church they came from)

1. Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
Constantinople was evangelized early, while it was a small city, and still known as "Byzantium". Some claim it was evangelized by St. Andrew the First-Called Apostle, but this is in dispute. It was made and archbishopic, a patriarchate, and then later gained the title "ecumenical patriarchate." It's rise in prominence happened because of St. Constantine making it the capital of the Roman Empire.


2. Patriarchate of Alexandria
Alexandria was initially evangelized by St. Mark the Evangelist, who was one of the 70 Apostles and a disciple of St. Peter. Because of this, Alexandria is considered one of the three Petrine Sees (the others being Rome and Antioch). However, at the fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon), a large amount of this see rejected the council and became what is known as the Coptic Orthodox Church. Constantinople, considering this to be a schism, appointed a new "Greek" Pope of Alexandria to shepherd those loyal to the council. To this day, the Pope of Alexandria is a Greek, not a Copt, and most of the EO Patriarchate of Alexandria is made up of Greeks.

3. Patriarchate of Antioch
Antioch was initially evangelized by St. Peter, making it one of the Petrine Sees (the others being Rome and Alexandria). At the fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon), a large amount of this see rejected the council and became what is known as the Syriac Orthodox Church. Constantinople, considering this to be a schism, appointed a new "Greek" Patriarch of Antioch to shepherd those loyal to the council. Only recently has the Patriarchate of Antioch come to be led by actual Syriacs and conduct services in Arabic instead of Greek.

4. Patriarchate of Jerusalem
Jerusalem was the initial see of Christianity, but, having been destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans, it wasn't a major center of Christianity. It only became prominent again after the Empire became Christian and the holy sites of Christianity were recovered. It was made a Patriarchate because of its historical value.

5. Patriarchate of Moscow
The Russians became Christians in the 10th century, after the Great Price Vladimir sent emissaries to various religious groups and they were dazzled by the beautiful display of the Liturgy at Constantinople. After this, Vladimir requested Constantinople receive his people into Orthodoxy. This happened in 988. Therefore, Russia was initially under Constantinople. It received autocephaly in the 15th century.

6. Patriarchate of Serbia
When the Serbian peoples settled in the Balkans, they quickly accepted Christianity. In the 13th century, St. Sava was made the autocephalous archbishop of the Serbian people. Due to the Turkish conquest, the Serbian people lost and regained their autocephaly several times, being unable to elect a new patriarch. When they were not autocephalous, they fell under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. They were finally restored to autocephaly for the last time in the 19th century.

7. Patriarchate of Romania
Romania is interesting, as it was evangelized prior to its existence as a unified people and as a nation. They existed as part of the Byzantine Empire for quite some time, existing under Constantinople, who granted them autocephaly in the 19th century.

8. Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Bulgaria was evangelized by Constantinople a little bit before the Russians. Initially gaining autocephaly in the 10th century, they lost and regained it (much the same way Serbia did) until finally re-establishing their autocephaly, recognized by Constantinople, just after WWII.

9. Patriarchate of Georgia
Georgia, much like Romania, is very ancient, and is attributed to the evangelization of St. Andrew. Though, as a people, they did not become largely Orthodox until St. Nina the Equal-to-the-Apostles converted the Georgian king. Initially, they fell under the jurisdiction of Antioch, which granted them autocephaly in the 5th century. They were placed under the Russian Church in the 19th century, and only at the time of the Revolution did they declare themselves autocephalous again at the beginning of the 20th century. This was recognized roughly 70 years later by both Russia and Constantinople.

10. Church of Cyprus
Cyprus was evangelized in the 1st century by Ss. Andrew and Barnabas, and they existed under Jerusalem until the 5th century, when the third Ecumenical Council declared them autocephalous, against the claims of Antioch. They remained so ever since.

11. Church of Greece
The Church of Greece is ancient, and traces itself back to the 1st century. It spent a lot of time under the Pope of Rome, and then under the Patriarch of Constantinople after the schism. It declared autocephaly in the 19th century, and was recognized a few decades later by Constantinople. The two churches still retain close ties.

12. Church of Poland
The Polish Church traces itself back to Ss. Cyril and Methodius, who evangelized Slavic lands in the 9th century. Having suffered greatly from conversion to Roman Catholicism. In the 20th century, they organized as an autocephalous church, being recognized independently by Moscow and Constantinople.

13. Church of Albania
The lands of Albania, having belonged to the Byzantine Empire, where long Orthodox, but only recently did nationalism take hold and services begin to be conducted in Albanian instead of Greek. The Albanian church entered schism with Constantinople in the 20th century upon declaring itself autocephalous. Nearly two decades later, Constantinople recognized Albanian autocephaly and they were brought back into communion with the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy.

14. Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia
The area of this church was initially evangelized by Ss. Cyril and Methodius in the 9th century. Autocephaly was gained, lost and regained in the 20th century, largely due to WWII. The first autocephaly was recognized by Moscow. The second and final by Constantinople.

15. Orthodox Church in America (Disputed)
This church began with a mission from Russia to its newly acquired territory of Alaska. While most of the mission perished, St. Herman is considered the founder of the American Church, which received autocephaly in 1970 by Moscow. It is still not recognized by Constantinople.

When the Apostles formed the Church in 33A.D. , was it already an institution?

When did the Christians convert the Church to an organization?

The Church has always been an institution, a visible body of believers in communion with one another. This is clearly seen in the Book of Acts. However, it did take time for the church to evolve to the level of organization it now has, since the church has grown and had to face issues of political dissent, wars, and other dividing conflicts.

[Michał Kalina]

I know those are real things, but ive never heard of the "Alexandrian Orthodox Church."

Have you ever been to Africa?

Ive just heard that, for example, (and this may not be accurate, but thats why im asking the question) that the Romanian Orthodox Church is under the Patriarchate of Alexandria.

[/quote]

Romanian Orthodox Church is under the Patriarchate of Romania.

[OrthoNoob]

I think when the OP asks why there is not an 'Alexandrian Orthodox Church', he means 'why is there not an Alexandrian Orthodox Church in America/Europe/Otherwise outside the canonical territory of Alexandria?'

My understanding is that the 'diaspora' churches are fairly ad-hoc institutions created when immigrants from Russia, Greece, the Middle East, etc. brought their religions with them to wherever it was they were going. I would guess there weren't enough Jerusalemite or Alexandrian EOs going to other places to justify forming Jerusalem or Alexandrian churches there, for the most part (though I seem to recall at least one of our posters is Alexandrian in Scandinavia--not totally sure, however).

[Michał Kalina]

I think when the OP asks why there is not an 'Alexandrian Orthodox Church', he means 'why is there not an Alexandrian Orthodox Church in America/Europe/Otherwise outside the canonical territory of Alexandria?'

It used to be, at least in the USA.

There isn't now since Alexandria shares Constantinople's interpretation of 28# Chalcedon. For the very same reason there are also no possessions of Churches of Jerusalem (kinda controversial issues), Greece, Cyprus, and Albania.

Czech-Slovakia also does not have abroad parishes but I suppose it's because they just didn't need them.

[mabsoota]

To the OP:

2. Patriarchate of Alexandria
To this day, the Pope of Alexandria is a Greek, not a Copt, and most of the EO Patriarchate of Alexandria is made up of Greeks.
When they were not autocephalous, they fell under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. They were finally restored to autocephaly for the last time in the 19th century.

sorry to correct you, but there are 2 popes (patriarchs) of alexandria.
don't worry, they are friends:
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=889

the photo at the top of the page is the 2 pope theodores (yes, they share the same name too!)

http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=889
and here it is in english!

[Michał Kalina]

To the OP:

2. Patriarchate of Alexandria
To this day, the Pope of Alexandria is a Greek, not a Copt, and most of the EO Patriarchate of Alexandria is made up of Greeks.
When they were not autocephalous, they fell under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. They were finally restored to autocephaly for the last time in the 19th century.

sorry to correct you, but there are 2 popes (patriarchs) of alexandria.
don't worry, they are friends:
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=889

the photo at the top of the page is the 2 pope theodores (yes, they share the same name too!)

http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=889
and here it is in english!

Do you really have to spoil the conversation about EO ecclesiology with this? Has it made you feel satisfied?

[mabsoota]

i am sorry, i did not mean to offend anyone.
please forgive me.

[Cyrillic]

Do you really have to spoil the conversation about EO ecclesiology with this? Has it made you feel satisfied?

Now that's just rude.

[Deacon Lance]

To the OP:

2. Patriarchate of Alexandria
To this day, the Pope of Alexandria is a Greek, not a Copt, and most of the EO Patriarchate of Alexandria is made up of Greeks.
When they were not autocephalous, they fell under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. They were finally restored to autocephaly for the last time in the 19th century.

sorry to correct you, but there are 2 popes (patriarchs) of alexandria.
don't worry, they are friends:
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=889

the photo at the top of the page is the 2 pope theodores (yes, they share the same name too!)

http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=889
and here it is in english!

Do you really have to spoil the conversation about EO ecclesiology with this? Has it made you feel satisfied?

Are you satisfied with your rude behavior?

[Benjamin the Red]

i am sorry, i did not mean to offend anyone.
please forgive me.

No, it's fine. I'm aware of both Popes Theodore. I'm also aware of the Syriac Patriarch Ignatius. Both of these also have churches in communion with Rome (the Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria is a cardinal). This doesn't include talk of the Maronites and Melkites who also make a claim to Antioch, and are in communion with Rome.

I didn't mean to "forget" you all, it's just that the OP was asking about Eastern Orthodox ecclessiology. Since the OO are not part of our church, I didn't really mention them. Though, I did mention that there was a schism in both Antioch and Alexandria after Chalcedon, and that there are modern-day Syriac and Coptic Churches that exist to this day. By referencing those, I was referring to the Oriental Churches you mean to bring to our attention.

EDIT: Also, in the effort of full disclosure, there are Oriental Patriarchs in Jerusalem and Constantinople, which fall under the Armenian Apostolic Church. The Roman Catholics also maintain a presence in Jerusalem with a Latin bishop that has been there since the Crusades.

They also set up a Latin Patriarch of Constantinople after the sacking of 1204, but he fled after the Ottoman conquest. However, the title continued to be a titular see for quite some time. I believe it was finally retired, or otherwise left unfilled, in the 1960s. IIRC, the Latin Patriarch of Constantinople was always a cardinal. The RCs still maintain a Vicariate in Istanbul, but it is very small.

[Michał Kalina]

(the Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria is a cardinal)

The retired one is. The current one is not (yet?).

[Benjamin the Red]

(the Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria is a cardinal)

The retired one is. The current one is not (yet?).

Hmmm. I'm not sure. I know the retired one is, we saw him at the Conclave. I don't know if the current one has attained the rank of cardinal. I know Alexandria is considered the second-most senior See (aside from Rome), in their church, following the lead of the ancient diptychs of the Empire, which we also still use. I'll have to look into whether the current one is or is not a cardinal.

EDIT: The new Coptic Catholic Patriarch, as you said, is not a cardinal. His style is "His Beatitude", whereas the retired Patriarch is "His Beatitude and Eminence", "Eminence" being the style of a Catholic Cardinal. Thank you for the correction!

[Timon]

Thanks for all the replies. Have have been away all day and will re-read/read more in depth all of the replies tomorrow. It seems I had a general misunderstanding. I thought there were still only the original 5, but all the others were "under" them. Seems there are many more than 5 now and they all stand on their own. I sort of understood that I think, but I just thought all the others were still somehow "under" or originated from one of the originals. But again, I will read the replies in more detail tomorrow as I do not have time now.

Carl, yes it helped. Thanks.

And Benjamin, thanks very much for the detailed reply!

[jmbejdl]

Thanks for all the replies. Have have been away all day and will re-read/read more in depth all of the replies tomorrow. It seems I had a general misunderstanding. I thought there were still only the original 5, but all the others were "under" them. Seems there are many more than 5 now and they all stand on their own. I sort of understood that I think, but I just thought all the others were still somehow "under" or originated from one of the originals. But again, I will read the replies in more detail tomorrow as I do not have time now.

Carl, yes it helped. Thanks.

And Benjamin, thanks very much for the detailed reply!

They do all have mother churches that are one of the original five, usually Constantinople, but they aren't under any of them. All Patriarchates are Autocephalous (literally self-headed) regardless of whether they are one of the 5 or were granted autocephaly by one of the 5. So, Russia, Romania etc. were under Constantinople before they were granted autocephaly but no longer are. Hopefully that makes sense.

James

[Michał Kalina]

They do all have mother churches that are one of the original five, usually Constantinople,

Apart from Georgia, and OCA.

[jmbejdl]

They do all have mother churches that are one of the original five, usually Constantinople,

Apart from Georgia, and OCA.

Fair enough. Georgia's mother church is Antioch, which is one of the 5, though not Constantinople (that's why I said 'usually'). The OCA's not a Patriarchate, however, which is what I had gathered Timon was asking about. I may have been wrong about that. It's mother church is Russia, though, so ultimately it too can be traced back to Constantinople.

James

[walter1234]

When the Apostles formed the Church in 33A.D. , was it already an institution?

When did the Christians convert the Church to an organization?

The Church has always been an institution, a visible body of believers in communion with one another. This is clearly seen in the Book of Acts. However, it did take time for the church to evolve to the level of organization it now has, since the church has grown and had to face issues of political dissent, wars, and other dividing conflicts.

Is there any verse clearly shows that Church is not simply the gathering of the Christians, but also a holy institution?

[Timon]

Yes, everything makes sense now. Just needed a little clarification.

Thank you all again for the replies. I just had a slight misunderstanding of how everything worked.

[Timon]

I think when the OP asks why there is not an 'Alexandrian Orthodox Church', he means 'why is there not an Alexandrian Orthodox Church in America/Europe/Otherwise outside the canonical territory of Alexandria?'

This would be true. Since Alexandria is in Egypt, it makes sense you would find them there or in other parts of Africa. But I have never heard of them here. (although they may be. I know there are Coptic Churches here.) "Alexandrian Orthodox Church" sounds odd to an American who is used to only hearing about Greek, Russian, Antiochian, OCA, etc. 

Thats what caused to confusion for me. While I was here basking in my American ignorance, I just assumed that these Churches I was familiar with were lumped together under the "Patriarchate of Alexandrian" or "Patriarchate of Jerusalem" umbrella rather than them being their own autocephalous umbrellas.

[katherineofdixie]

When the Apostles formed the Church in 33A.D. , was it already an institution?

When did the Christians convert the Church to an organization?

The Church has always been an institution, a visible body of believers in communion with one another. This is clearly seen in the Book of Acts. However, it did take time for the church to evolve to the level of organization it now has, since the church has grown and had to face issues of political dissent, wars, and other dividing conflicts.

Is there any verse clearly shows that Church is not simply the gathering of the Christians, but also a holy institution?

The whole book of Acts, but especially the meetings of the Council in Jerusalem and their decisions.

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Faith Issues (Moderator: Michał Kalina) > Topic: a question about Church hierarchy. (Patriarchs, Patriarchates, etc.)