Author Topic: Is Eve's punishment still valid if so why ? Does equality mean being equal in ..  (Read 305 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Genesis 3:16 (NKJV)
16 To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

1 Timothy 2:11-15 (NKJV) and Augustine
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed
first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Augustine: So, too, we must believe that Adam transgressed the law of God, not because he was deceived into believing that the lie was true but because in obedience to a social compulsion he yielded to Eve, as husband to wife, as the only man in the world to the only woman. It was not without reason that the apostle wrote, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived.” He means, no doubt, that Eve accepted the serpent’s word as true, whereas Adam refused to be separated from his partner even in a union of sin. This does not imply that he was on that account any less guilty, since he sinned knowingly and deliberately. The City of God 14.11.2.

It seems Adam sin was greater because he was not deceived but he thought it proper to sin with his wife ignoring the commandment not waiting for God solution

But because eve was deceived does that mean women are deceived more easily then it is like Islam says women are more deficient
Or did satan go after eve because he knows that way he can strike two with one stone ?
So why does this commandment still apply ? Is it because if the wife is wrong though she don't have to be or not less likely she will cause more damage ?

Paul sought permission from Peter to preach though he didn't need it and not just Peter but James who was a pillar. He wanted more confirmation. If the apostles gave an unsound reason to reject him he would not have listened to them but he believed they may be more sound because they are pillars
James taught the truth about circumcision and law keeping but it is Peter who though not knowing the answer himself he probably decided it is the truth. He was more respected for judgement. Therefore should not a woman respect a man judgement more (now I am maybe going against what I said earlier that they are equal in judgement but satan just wants to hit two with one stone)  as likely to discern better the truth or maybe he is better at just judging what is truth even though sometimes less likely to know it himself
So maybe a woman tends to be more right and have equality in judgement only if she respects her husband judgement and voice but he don't always judge correctly but he is more able to
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 01:42:22 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Ainnir

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I'm not sure how you're connecting the pain of childbirth, conduct in church, and any potential differences in the reasoning abilities of men and women...   ???

Regardless, what you might want to consider is the different ways "judgment" is applied in the myriad situations in life, and regarding truth, whether there might be more than one valid way to understand it and whether more than one way of understanding is perhaps even necessary.  Sort of like how Orthodoxy can be understood in part through study and instruction, but is more fully understood through participation.  Yet study and instruction give the participation depth, maybe direction.  The two (should) work together to create a larger experience (or life or reality, if you prefer).  I won't try to pick it apart more than that; it's just food for thought, anyway.
"Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that."  ~me

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Thankyou Ainnir :)

When it says your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you it is not just about childbirth but that woman should allow her husband to be the one to guide her. She should try to make him wiser than her so he protects her. She must not trust her judgement anymore as a punishment even if she is wise she can not try to be the wise guide

When you say that study is not enough but participating do you mean God intends us to learn by participating in fellowship with spouses that is participation not just study ?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 10:31:52 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Ainnir

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Honestly, I've never completely understood the "your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."  Not in any sort of way I'd be confident saying, "it probably means this."  Although, I have understood it as something separate from childbirth.  As for trusting judgment, from what I understand, no person should trust their own.  At least, not completely.  That's part of the point of Tradition, I think. 

By "participation," I simply meant living Orthodoxy: the prayers, icons, sacraments, etc.  The doing of Orthodoxy being as valuable, even necessary, as the knowing of it--both together creating something more full than either one on its own (ideally).  So too with men and women.  But like I said, trying to pick it apart further than that is probably not the best idea.  And it's not necessary; the point is the equal value of two seemingly disparate things.

Getting into roles and dynamics, however, is probably better explained in a pastoral setting.  Not everyone will understand an instruction or Truth the same way, and misunderstanding could be detrimental.
"Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that."  ~me

Taking a hiatus.  Pray for me, a sinner.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Yes, women still give birth and have a weakness for men. Why? Because we lost Paradise. A more interesting question might be if males are "still being punished" and whether automated farming is a defiance of God.

The rest of the stuff you think is a curse on females I don't follow at all. That's not what my copy of Genesis says.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Yes men are still punished. Paul says if a man will not work he wil not eat
What do you mean weakness for men ? Not all women care more about what men think than what a man cares what women think

Online Volnutt

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A more interesting question might be if males are "still being punished" and whether automated farming is a defiance of God.

You mean we need to get back to the bucolic roots of Das Volk? This is some dangerous fire you're playing with, man. I mean it.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.