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Author Topic: English Liturgy  (Read 8667 times) Average Rating: 0
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CRCulver
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« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2005, 04:02:39 PM »

Scholars consider Old Church Slavonic a literary variant of Proto-Slavic.

Simply wrong. Look at the handbooks of Lunt, Nandris, Voylova, and Schmalstieg, and the survey of Comrie. All state very early that Old Church Slavonic arose several centuries after the breakup of Proto-Slavonic. The fact that OCS shows considerable differences in its consonantal system alone is enough to make it more than a "literary variant". Please acquire those handbooks, they are the bare minimum.
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« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2005, 04:27:30 PM »

Interestingly, many Caratho-Rusyns I have met say their language is "Slovak" since they came from "Slovakia."  Being an intermediate speaker of Slovak (i.e. the West Slavic language) I usually try to ascertain whether they mean Rusyn.  A good way to tell is to ask them how they or their parents said the word "milk."  In West Slavic languages, an m and an l can come together, so milk in Slovak is mlieka.  But in East Slavic languages, a vowel comes beween an m and an l so in Rusyn, it's usually "moloko" or something similiar.

Not that this actually means much in terms of importance but it's interesting.

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« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2005, 05:00:40 PM »

CR,

SS. Cyril and Methodius introduced OCS in the 9th Century.  Every scholar I have read dates the beginning of seperate Slavic languages as 10th/11th century.  As indicated by the following articles which draw upon the books you cite.  In any case believe what you wish, but please do not arrogantly state there is no such language as Slavonic, when it is  a tongue many of us pray in every Sunday.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/sl/Slavicla.html

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ch/ChurchSl.html

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« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2005, 06:08:30 PM »

SS. Cyril and Methodius introduced OCS in the 9th Century.  Every scholar I have read dates the beginning of seperate Slavic languages as 10th/11th century.

That's the breakup of Common Slavonic (the mutual intelligibility of the Slavonic languages) which is something different from Proto-Slavonic (the dialect-free proto-language). See Comrie's survey.

I know that "Slavonic" is often heard for "Church Slavonic", undesirably imprecise as that might be. However, the earlier post mentioned "going into a store and speaking Slavonic", which is plainly not possible. Due to a mention of Slovakia in that post, I assumed he wrote "Slavonic" there for "Slovak".
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« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2005, 06:28:29 PM »

Quote
SS. Cyril and Methodius introduced OCS in the 9th Century.  Every scholar I have read dates the beginning of seperate Slavic languages as 10th/11th century.  As indicated by the following articles which draw upon the books you cite.  In any case believe what you wish, but please do not arrogantly state there is no such language as Slavonic, when it is  a tongue many of us pray in every Sunday.

Of course there's a language that is called Church Slavonic, and one that is called Old Church Slavonic. By itself, though, "Slavonic" doesn't refer to any one language, except in the case of (imprecisely) using it to refer to proto- or common Slavonic.

OCS was introduced in the 9th century, but nevertheless the only descendent of OCS is modern CS. No living Slavic language is descended from OCS.
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« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2008, 03:28:16 PM »

This is Orthodox tradition: to celebrate the liturgical offices in the vernacular of the country. People who complain about not getting a foriegn language are going against that tradition.

I am looking for the exact passage either in the councils and/or canons which state this.  If no council or canon, then perhaps a Church father.  Can anybody point me in the right direction for such information?

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« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2008, 05:21:34 PM »

Say next year I move to Norway. I understand that by this move I will most likely have to attend all-Norwegian liturgies in order to continue attending an Orthodox church.

When I was a member of the Lutheran Church of Norway, I remember the mass containing bits of both Greek and Latin on occasions Cheesy

If the ethnically homogenous Lutherans are happy to throw in a bit of Latin here and there, I don't think it would kill the ethnically diverse Orthodox to use a bit of Greek or Arabic.
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« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2008, 12:55:58 AM »

If the ethnically homogenous Lutherans are happy to throw in a bit of Latin here and there, I don't think it would kill the ethnically diverse Orthodox to use a bit of Greek or Arabic.
or Slavonic.  Occasional use of the ancient languages in our liturgy helps us--me, at least--stay connected to our past.
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« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2008, 01:34:45 AM »

When I was a member of the Lutheran Church of Norway, I remember the mass containing bits of both Greek and Latin on occasions Cheesy

If the ethnically homogenous Lutherans are happy to throw in a bit of Latin here and there, I don't think it would kill the ethnically diverse Orthodox to use a bit of Greek or Arabic.

I remember trying to go on pilgrimage to Trondheim, to St.  Olaf.  I was told his remains are not public Sad.
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« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2008, 01:51:13 AM »

I am looking for the exact passage either in the councils and/or canons which state this.  If no council or canon, then perhaps a Church father.  Can anybody point me in the right direction for such information?



You won't find a council or canon, because, except to the Latin west, this was a no brainer.

Look at the Vita of SS Methodius and Cyril, and Koriwn's Life of Mesrob/Mashtots (he goes by two names: he's the inventor of the Armenian alphabet).  Both discuss the language question.

If you spoke Romanian, I'd direct you to the Bucharest Bible: it has an introduction from the Patriarch of Jerusalem Dositheos on the translations into the vernacular.

The Synod of Jerusalem has some strong words though:

QUESTION I.
Ought the Divine Scriptures to be read in the vulgar tongue by all Christians?

No. For that all Scripture is divinely-inspired and profitable {cf. 2 Timothy 3:16} we know, and is of such necessity, that without the same it is impossible to be Orthodox at all. Nevertheless they should not be read by all, but only by those who with fitting research have inquired <153> into the deep things of the Spirit, and who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and in fine read. But to such as are not so exercised, or who cannot distinguish, or who understand only literally, or in any other way contrary to Orthodoxy what is contained in the Scriptures, the Catholic Church, as knowing by experience the mischief arising therefrom, forbiddeth the reading of the same. So that it is permitted to every Orthodox to hear indeed the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation; {Romans 10:10} but to read some parts of the Scriptures, and especially of the Old [Testament], is forbidden for the aforesaid reasons and others of the like sort. For it is the same thing thus to prohibit persons not exercised thereto reading all the Sacred Scriptures, as to require infants to abstain from strong meats.

http://catholicity.elcore.net/ConfessionOfDositheus.html

St. Athanasius' Life of St. Anthony mentions that he only spoke Coptic and not Greek (by this we know that the Bible and DL had been translated already).

There is a saying of the Desert Fathers: Abba X (I don't remember the names) saw Abba Y conversing with a peasant. Abba X was suprised, because Abba Y was a learned man. He asked him "Abba Y, you speak Greek and Latin, and you are speaking with that peasant.  Abba Y replied "I have not begun to know the alphabet of that peasant."

St. Spyridon, at a service led by a bishop who had participated at Nicea, heard the bishop read the Gospel and correcting the Greek (from Koine to Attic) at which point Spyridon interrupted the service and said "Are you so much better than Him that spoke Koine that you are ashamed to use His words?"

In the middle of a sermon, a yaya said to St. John Chrysostom complained that she couldn't understand half of what he said.  He switched to the vernacular.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2008, 08:10:19 PM »

Believe I heard RC liturgy in Switzerland using the Swiss dialect of German!

If so, that is an anomaly. It's almost always served in High German in Switzerland.
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« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2008, 08:15:36 PM »

I have no idea of the prevalence of "Your" and "you" instead of "thee" and "thou".  May parish and I know of others that use the latter.

The Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate uses traditional liturgical English in their services exclusively. I'm not sure about other jurisdictions, but most of the Antiochian churches in the US and Canada use traditional English as well. The official service book is printed in traditional English.
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« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2008, 08:22:02 PM »


Thee and thou were the English equivalent of the vulgar, so anyone who claims they are "high" speech doesn't know much about king james english. "You" and "Your" were only allowed for the King. "Thee" and "thou" were common-everyday folk speech. There is a false sense that "thee" and "thou" are somehow higher or more respectful, when in fact, at the time it was put into that English, they were the more base of the two modes of address.

Today, since the English language does not have a "formal" and "informal" mode of speech, you and your are fine.


That's sort of correct. When addressing the king, a person uses "you" because that is the plural form as well as the formal singular form. "Thee" is singular and informal. In the Mass, in liturgical English, we do use "you" when it addresses more than one person. When the response is to one person or addressing the Almighty, you use "thee." This distinction is also seen in the King James version of the Bible.
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