Author Topic: Pictures of Western Icons?  (Read 22495 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2017, 11:25:58 PM »
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.

He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.

Why? Someone can use Origen's Haxapla or Tatian's Diatesseron or Eusebius's history and yet not consider them Saints nor even really give them personally a second thought.


May I ask what part of my opinion you disagreed with?

The idea that the San Damiano crucifix is somehow tainted or unusable because of Francis.


Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!

Of course you can't avoid having it. You can avoid being a dogmatic jackhole about it or obsessing over it until you run yourself ragged.

Something else that I'm sure you'll dismiss as irreparably tainted because a nonorthodox said it:

Quote from: Dietrich Bonhoeffer
He who loves his dream of a community more that the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.

...

God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own laws, and judges the brethren and God himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of the brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together.

To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.

All of whom were at least twice your age, both spiritually and temporally. All of whom were experienced clergymen. None of whom drastically changed their tone once a week like an unmedicated schizophrenic.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 11:30:35 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2017, 12:44:51 AM »
The idea that the San Damiano crucifix is somehow tainted or unusable because of Francis.

Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.

The only thing that I - from an Orthodox perspective - would find somewhat problematic is its direct connection to Francis of Assisi; that is, this is the Crucifix that apparently talked to Francis and told him to "restore my Church."

However, in terms of art - I'm of the opinion there's nothing intrinsically heterodox in its art.

Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.


Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!

Quote
Of course you can't avoid having it. You can avoid being a dogmatic jackhole about it or obsessing over it until you run yourself ragged.

Something else that I'm sure you'll dismiss as irreparably tainted because a nonorthodox said it:

Quote from: Dietrich Bonhoeffer
He who loves his dream of a community more that the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.

...

God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own laws, and judges the brethren and God himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of the brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together.


I gave an opinion about the San Damiano cross. Is this obsessing about it?

True, I am prideful and do not like losing arguments, even if they are over stupid junk like the ethics of praying using a San Damiano cross. And I love shoving down my opinions down people's throats.

Also, your argument that I think everything heterodox is tainted is misrepresenting my position - and is easily disproved by the images I've posted in this thread.


Quote
To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.

All of whom were at least twice your age, both spiritually and temporally. All of whom were experienced clergymen. None of whom drastically changed their tone once a week like an unmedicated schizophrenic.

True.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 12:53:46 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2017, 12:56:24 PM »
What exactly did I say that is heterodox or that I need to "unlearn?" Any kind of feedback is fine.

Apparently not.
 
Quote
And is anybody here - even if they be a priest - qualified to really give an opinion?

Yes.  I am really qualified to give an opinion.

Quote
I for one will admit that I am very immature, both literally and in my knowledge - but isn't discussion how I learn?

If you're always talking, you'll never listen, and you cannot learn without listening. 

Quote
Then again, maybe you see me as some kind of Pius XIII figure.



lol no
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Offline maneki_neko

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2017, 01:28:28 AM »
Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me personally, but I wouldn't say I "went out of my way to make this cross a part of [my] spiritual life". It was something I picked up on a generic tour through Italy, and being the uneducated church history (eastern and western) noob that I was (still am, but hopefully slowly climbing out of that hole) bought without realizing the cross was specifically attached to Francis. My (raised) RC husband doesn't even know it's associated with Francis.

Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away. Those few hours at the monastery was my first impressionable contact with a form of rooted Christianity, and I think planted the seeds for Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 01:30:55 AM by maneki_neko »
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Offline maneki_neko

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2017, 01:29:45 AM »
double post
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 01:30:24 AM by maneki_neko »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2017, 01:57:04 AM »
And I listened to a certain message from a certain person on this forum and thought about the Papacy one final time about EVERYTHING I know about Church History, and I've come to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is Truth. There's no way around it.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2017, 11:57:40 AM »
Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away.

I have one.  I didn't go out of my way to get it, someone gave it to me.  I kept it. 

It's a cross.  It's an icon.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2017, 12:01:19 PM »
Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me personally, but I wouldn't say I "went out of my way to make this cross a part of [my] spiritual life". It was something I picked up on a generic tour through Italy, and being the uneducated church history (eastern and western) noob that I was (still am, but hopefully slowly climbing out of that hole) bought without realizing the cross was specifically attached to Francis. My (raised) RC husband doesn't even know it's associated with Francis.

Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away. Those few hours at the monastery was my first impressionable contact with a form of rooted Christianity, and I think planted the seeds for Orthodoxy.


I think personally it's fine in that context.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2017, 07:54:14 PM »
I think I'll resume the thread's intention.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 07:56:27 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2017, 08:02:06 PM »
The Monreale Cathedral has pretty mosaics.

Temptation of Christ from Monreale Cathedral



The Three Angels of Abraham



Christ and the Samaritan Woman



Christ driving the Merchants out of the Temple

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2017, 08:14:54 PM »
Saint Justinian from San Vitale Basilica



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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2017, 08:34:37 PM »
Christ Enthroned on the Cherubim



Theotokos and Child, Surrounded by Life of Theotokos

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #102 on: December 10, 2017, 04:12:08 AM »
Theotokos, Giver of Milk, with Saint Leonard of Noblac and Saint Peter, surrounded by the life of Saint Peter.



Full size image:
http://b02.deliver.odai.yale.edu/d0/2c/d02cd408-3471-4793-943f-c326e9f0c7c4/ag-obj-286-033-pub-large.jpg
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #103 on: December 10, 2017, 04:29:40 AM »
Apse of Santa Maria in Domnica from the 9th Century

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me. He seemed to have friendly relations with the Eastern Churches, but this is the century where the real problems between Rome and the Eastern Churches became apparent.



Full size image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #104 on: December 10, 2017, 08:22:56 AM »

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2017, 09:03:20 AM »

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.

Somebody should have told me that long before I even considered Catechumenate. Would have saved me from a lot of hyperdox-ish distress.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #106 on: December 10, 2017, 03:47:55 PM »
You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
I think that's the normal result of we who are used to the unified state-society era, in which law and behaviour tend to become one, converting to religion. Many of us have been through this. The thing is Muslims have many times across history strived for some other kind of state-society unity, which resulted in the Wahhabi OCD abomination.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #107 on: December 10, 2017, 04:06:16 PM »
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

Congratulations, you resolved your own doubt.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #108 on: December 10, 2017, 05:05:45 PM »
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

Congratulations, you resolved your own doubt.

Pope Nicholas I is also a pre-schism saint in the Roman Catholic Church. He's definitely not a Saint in Orthodoxy, because he caused the Photian schism and demanded Papal Supremacy. Pope Paschal was Pope around this time period, and I'm unfamiliar with his relationship with the Eastern Churches.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #109 on: December 10, 2017, 05:10:29 PM »

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.

Your talking to someone who is used to hearing debates about whether or not the Novus Ordo is forbidden or not, whether or not Vatican II was a valid council or not, or whether or not the 1962 Tridentine Missal is acceptable compared to the 1955 Tridentine Missal, and whether or not one could find salvation in the FSSP or the SSPX. Mess up on one of these and you are probably damned to hell.

Also, due to my bad experiences with some Catholic education and lukewarm Catholic clergy, I still have a serious mistrust of authority that I need to overcome. I'm always on the defensive and feel that I need to constantly be informed lest I'm led to the slaughter.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 05:12:08 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #110 on: December 10, 2017, 07:32:24 PM »
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #111 on: December 10, 2017, 07:39:38 PM »
I'm unfamiliar

Yup.

I feel like that we are gonna have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship on this board.

You got me I guess and disproved my comment which was an open ended question?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #112 on: December 10, 2017, 08:15:29 PM »
I'm unfamiliar

Yup.

I feel like that we are gonna have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship on this board.

I have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship with everyone on this board.

Quote
You got me I guess and disproved my comment which was an open ended question?

I just think you need to do more listening and less talking.  As long as you continue to disagree with that, doing your own thing is going to lead you into some bad places.   
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2017, 11:31:14 PM »

I just think you need to do more listening and less talking.  As long as you continue to disagree with that, doing your own thing is going to lead you into some bad places.   

However, I will point out your contradiction in that you constantly scold people who hold that "everything" from the West is heretical and certain beautiful things from the West can be Orthodox.

Yet here I am, a schismatic from the West, who is told that "everything" from me shouldn't be allowed.

Yet if it benefits the Holy Orthodox Church, I will obey and be quiet. If there is an Eastern Orthodox MDiv or priest on this forum who agrees with your sentiments, I will obey and shut up (although I'm shutting up anyways, because God wants me to, not because of some of your comments).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 11:44:49 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2017, 12:35:13 AM »
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2017, 01:01:11 AM »
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.

Something happened to me today which I view as Divine Providence - where I was talking about theology to some Orthodox friends of mine and a poor couple of homeless women asked for 30$ - which I didn't have even on debit (one more week till I go home for the Semester) after they heard me talking about theology - which only led them to shouting at me "hypocrite! hypocrite! You're responsible for us freezing to death! This is why I don't trust religion or you so called "Christians!" Nobody helps us! We knocked on the Greek Cathedral's doors, but they wouldn't help us!" I tried sending them to another Church, but they would have none of it.

It was very clear at that moment it was God telling me to stop being so sophistic in theology, because I have no right to talk about it where I am in my life.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 01:02:37 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2017, 01:00:41 PM »
Neither do I. Theology is to be lived. Good for you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #117 on: December 11, 2017, 01:25:54 PM »
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.

+1
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #118 on: December 11, 2017, 02:18:38 PM »
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.

Agreed!
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #119 on: December 31, 2017, 06:43:54 PM »
From the Lindisfarne Gospels

Saint Matthew


Saint Mark


Saint Luke



Saint John

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2017, 06:45:31 PM »
6th Century Irish icon of Saint Columba

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2017, 09:07:26 PM »
Saint Columba may be from the 6th century but that is rather the work of our own contemporary Daniel Mitsui. An interview with him that showcases this piece and others.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline hecma925

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #122 on: January 03, 2018, 12:07:20 PM »
Nice dead, soulless eyes.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 12:07:32 PM by hecma925 »
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #123 on: January 03, 2018, 12:40:37 PM »
Nice dead, soulless eyes.

Looks like St. Columba has been drinking past few weeks but trying to act sober when his aunt is coming for a suprise visit.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 12:41:03 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2018, 12:51:25 AM »
Has the Bessarion Reliquary been posted yet?


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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2018, 07:01:30 PM »
Saint Columba may be from the 6th century but that is rather the work of our own contemporary Daniel Mitsui. An interview with him that showcases this piece and others.

Thanks for the correction; my bad!
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2018, 07:02:37 PM »
Nice dead, soulless eyes.

Looks like St. Columba has been drinking past few weeks but trying to act sober when his aunt is coming for a suprise visit.

Yes, the eyes are indeed over emphasized and too bright - however, they still seem to be in the same styling as actual Celtic Christian art. Compare the eyes to the Lindisfarne Gospel icons.

And I've seen worse Byzantine icons.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:02:51 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2018, 07:11:25 PM »
13th century English Psalter

It shows the "Cross" as the "Tree of Life," with the Virgin Mary and John; the top left represents the Church of Christ, with the top right representing the Old Covenant; the bottom left is Saint Peter, the bottom right seems to be Antichrist (the source I've gotten this from says it's Moses, but considering it looks like Christ and it has devil horns... I don't really think so). A small attention to detail is that the "scripture" that the Antichrist is holding is flipped while the Scripture Saint Peter is holding as well as the Scripture of Saint John are in the same direction.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:17:39 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2018, 11:41:20 PM »
13th century English Psalter



I'm not sure that it's the enemy of the human race, but more likely Moses, who's often depicted with horns (after the Latin Vulgata translation of Ex. 34).
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline Jackson02

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2018, 12:49:49 AM »
Apse of Santa Maria in Domnica from the 9th Century

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me. He seemed to have friendly relations with the Eastern Churches, but this is the century where the real problems between Rome and the Eastern Churches became apparent.



Full size image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg
Pope Paschal I is the first Pope of the Byzantine papacy so yes he is a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 12:50:13 AM by Jackson02 »

Offline Jackson02

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2018, 01:06:26 AM »
Mosaics from the Church of San Vitale in Ravenna:






Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2018, 01:49:02 AM »

I'm not sure that it's the enemy of the human race, but more likely Moses, who's often depicted with horns (after the Latin Vulgata translation of Ex. 34).

Makes sense I guess. I should read the Old Testament more... (yes, I know, Moses wasn't horned - his face was lit up with light).

It made more sense considering the top left had something good, and the top right had something bad.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 01:52:28 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #133 on: January 08, 2018, 12:08:12 AM »
Saint Dunstan from a Psalter:

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2018, 07:59:58 PM »
I noticed there's seems to be little Stained Glass Window artwork here, so:

From the Chatres Cathedral:














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