Author Topic: Pictures of Western Icons?  (Read 21681 times)

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Pictures of Western Icons?
« on: September 16, 2017, 11:02:37 AM »
Let's start another thread which hopefully is more successful than my previous thread here.

Anybody got pictures of Western iconography that would (debateably) be appropriate for veneration or contemplation? Especially pre-schism, but I'm thinking in terms of time period, pre-schism to like the 13th century.

I'll start it off with an icon of the Theotokos, called the "Salus Populi Romani" (Latin for "Salvation of the Roman People" or "Salvation of the Roman Nation"). It is, at the time of this post, what my profile picture is.

It was a Byzantine icon given as a gift to Saint Gregory the Dialogist (Pope Saint Gregory the Great), and is still a heavily venerated Roman Catholic icon.

Pope Pius XII added crowns to the icon (imo a bad decision), but they've since then been removed I believe and the icon has been a project of a restoration
It is currently located in Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 11:12:47 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 11:16:39 AM »
Also, a couple of mosaics from the artist of the cathedral (although it is post schism)









« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 11:27:03 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2017, 11:22:30 AM »
Santa Pudenziana, a 4th century church in Rome - its nave:

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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2017, 12:05:32 PM »
Not quite an icon but



Quote

Lombard artist, Diptych in ivory

Possibly intended to bind an illuminated manuscript, of which it would constitute the front and the rear plate respectively, the two plates were commissioned by the abbot Odelricus of the Benedictine abbey of St. Flavian in Rambona, Macerata, in the Marche region. The abbey was erected around 898 by the empress Ageltrude, widow of Guy, Duke of Spoleto, who bore the title of king of Italy and dall'889 to dall'891 emperor until his death (894). The left valve bears a schematic Crucifixion between the Virgin and St. John – with the Sun and the Moon at the top and below, the She-wolf with the twins – occupies three-quarters of the surface; in the right valve, there is a figurative strip in which Virgin in Maestà is depicted, above a second one with the dedicatory saints. The complex iconography of the reliefs, a hardened linearity tending towards abstraction, seems to allude to Christ's triumph over pagan Rome and the new Christian empire of Ageltrude.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 12:38:32 PM »

Quote

Possibly intended to bind an illuminated manuscript, of which it would constitute the front and the rear plate respectively, the two plates were commissioned by the abbot Odelricus of the Benedictine abbey of St. Flavian in Rambona, Macerata, in the Marche region. The abbey was erected around 898 by the empress Ageltrude, widow of Guy, Duke of Spoleto, who bore the title of king of Italy and dall'889 to dall'891 emperor until his death (894). The left valve bears a schematic Crucifixion between the Virgin and St. John – with the Sun and the Moon at the top and below, the She-wolf with the twins – occupies three-quarters of the surface; in the right valve, there is a figurative strip in which Virgin in Maestà is depicted, above a second one with the dedicatory saints. The complex iconography of the reliefs, a hardened linearity tending towards abstraction, seems to allude to Christ's triumph over pagan Rome and the new Christian empire of Ageltrude.

I liked the symbolism of the triumph of Christ over paganism :)
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2017, 10:17:03 AM »
The most venerated icons by Polish Catholics and Orthodox:

Częstochowska:


Ostrobramska
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2017, 10:20:28 AM »
Everything by Duccio:






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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2017, 03:24:57 PM »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 03:32:57 PM »
Maybe I should've not necessarily said "icons for veneration," I meant to start a thread about Western artwork which would be appropriate for Orthodox Churches - that is, Western Rite Churches.

Regardless, here's some Romanesque paintings:







« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 03:33:37 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 04:36:14 PM »
Maybe I should've not necessarily said "icons for veneration," I meant to start a thread about Western artwork which would be appropriate for Orthodox Churches - that is, Western Rite Churches.

Regardless, here's some Romanesque paintings:

I think that if Ethiopian and Coptic iconography are appropriate for veneration, then this should be too.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 04:45:09 PM »
Santa Trinita Maesta by Cimabue.

It was painted for the Santa Trinita church in Florence around 1290 - 1300.

The bottom figures are Jeremiah, Abraham, David, and Isaiah.

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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2017, 05:04:46 PM »
Quote
Western artwork which would be appropriate for Orthodox Churches - that is, Western Rite Churches.

Cool.

I would say ideally this is a kind of Catholic spirituality; the Orthodox being consistent would say this truly Western stuff fits their ethos, neither imitating us post-schism nor, more pervasive, imitating the majority rite in Orthodoxy.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2017, 08:25:01 PM »
I would say ideally this is a kind of Catholic spirituality; the Orthodox being consistent would say this truly Western stuff fits their ethos, neither imitating us post-schism nor, more pervasive, imitating the majority rite in Orthodoxy.
Still, it's pre Renaissance, when Western iconography became blatantly compositional, which methinks is at the root of the criticism by the Orthodox.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2017, 07:18:27 PM »
Can't forget this one (which is just as famous in Eastern Orthodoxy; this was the best version I could find).

Our Lady of Perpetual Help / Theotokos of the Passion



Edited to reduce image size.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 09:02:44 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2017, 11:44:01 AM »






These are some nice icons from the monks of Our Lady of Clear Creek Abbey in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2017, 12:14:22 PM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2017, 12:19:20 PM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.

Agreed. Personally I am not a fan of Trinity icons (where all three are present). The art style is still nice though.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 12:20:51 PM by thenerdpaul »
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2017, 12:31:21 PM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9
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Offline thenerdpaul

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2017, 12:35:08 PM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9
Oops, not sure how I missed that, sorry. I was thinking of the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is what Volnutt meant.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 12:35:43 PM by thenerdpaul »
I have now seen two baby spiders over the last several days, each perhaps 2mm long. Sure they're harmless now, but what about when they grow up? They probably know that I killed their mom.

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2017, 12:36:03 PM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9

I know, but it should really be more subtle than the above if you're trying not to slip into modalism, right?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2017, 12:37:54 PM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.

Agreed. Personally I am not a fan of Trinity icons (where all three are present). The art style is still nice though.

Yeah, I've always had a soft spot for that sort of "Neo-Medieval" style even it can come as kind of LARP-y sometimes.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2017, 12:40:05 PM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9

I know, but it should really be more subtle than the above if you're trying not to slip into modalism, right?
Do you think that's more modalist than this:

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Antonis

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 12:42:01 PM »
For what it's worth, if I remember correctly, Fr. Thomas Hopko of blessed memory preferred NT Trinity icons in which the Father had the same appearance as Christ.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 12:42:20 PM by Antonis »
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2017, 04:14:11 AM »
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9

I know, but it should really be more subtle than the above if you're trying not to slip into modalism, right?
Do you think that's more modalist than this:



Fair enough. I have no response.

I think I used to know that about Fr. Hopko, at least.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2017, 06:04:44 AM »
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art (the "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look — there's Our Lady of Perpetual Help and then there's that; you can tell the difference). Just like with latinizations among Eastern Catholics: not heretical but disrespecting perfectly good rites hurts one's witness.

A WRO community that faithfully did that, for generations (like Eastern Catholics and even the Polish National Catholic Church are generational), in an Orthodoxy that held the fort against contraception and didn't do remarriage after divorce, would impress me, challenging my faith. I know you don't agree; just stating my case.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2017, 06:19:07 AM »
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art

Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2017, 06:20:39 AM »
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art

Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.

Pretty much. The San Damiano crucifix is a good example. Similar to Byzantine but not Byzantine.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2017, 06:21:15 AM »
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art (the "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look — there's Our Lady of Perpetual Help and then there's that; you can tell the difference). Just like with latinizations among Eastern Catholics: not heretical but disrespecting perfectly good rites hurts one's witness.

A WRO community that faithfully did that, for generations (like Eastern Catholics and even the Polish National Catholic Church are generational), in an Orthodoxy that held the fort against contraception and didn't do remarriage after divorce, would impress me, challenging my faith. I know you don't agree; just stating my case.

Does anybody actually care but liturgy nerds?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2017, 06:28:18 AM »
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art

Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.

Pretty much. The San Damiano crucifix is a good example. Similar to Byzantine but not Byzantine.

Much of art in the West is not only similar to but also exactly like Byzantine art. See just about any Italian church for example.

Also WRO is tiny majority of tiny immigrant churches.  I assume they'd love to have Mozarabic, Romanesque etc. icons if there was any available anywhere. I can't find any kind of icon of my Patron Saint St. Januarius so assumingly Gothic icons of St. Gregory Palamas are not readily available in your local supermarket either.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 06:29:07 AM by Alpo »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2017, 11:51:23 AM »
didn't do remarriage after divorce

Exchanging Byzantine chauvinism for Latin chauvinism is no gain.
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2017, 12:47:55 PM »
This one's pre-schism


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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2017, 10:58:14 PM »
This one's pre-schism



I also read it was Arian.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2017, 01:11:03 AM »
This one's pre-schism



I also read it was Arian.

There are two ancient baptistries at Ravenna: the Orthodox Baptistry and the Arian Baptistry.  The Byzantine artwork in the two, which were constructed by the Ostrogothic ruler to cater to the two groups and avoid a schism, is virtually identical; there is just one striking difference, that being that in the Arian Baptistry our Lord appears as a beardless young man, no older than 20, whereas in the Orthodox Baptistry he has a beard and His normal, mature, adult appearance.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2017, 02:11:46 AM »
Oh yeah, I see the differences, the Arian has a representation of the Father, the Empty Throne, and a general background of green and gold, instead of dark blue. St. John is also on Christ's right with the Father on his left. I never knew there were two in the same place, thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg

ETA: It's not letting me post the image for some reason.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:13:56 AM by Volnutt »
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2017, 06:59:13 AM »
Oh yeah, I see the differences, the Arian has a representation of the Father, the Empty Throne, and a general background of green and gold, instead of dark blue. St. John is also on Christ's right with the Father on his left. I never knew there were two in the same place, thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg
I didn't know! It's interesting!

ETA: It's not letting me post the image for some reason.

It seems a system detecting heresies has been just implemented.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2017, 09:11:16 AM »
ETA: It's not letting me post the image for some reason.

It seems a system detecting heresies has been just implemented.

 :-*

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2017, 09:19:51 AM »
I didn't know any Arian church buildings still existed. Thanks. "Verrrry interesting" as Arte Johnson says as his German-soldier character (he's a comedian from decades ago). A spiritual point: it looks almost like Catholicism and Orthodoxy but look at the details. (Each of the ancient sects like that claimed to be the true church just like we still respectively do.)

Quote
Does anybody actually care but liturgy nerds?

I can't find quotations but in other conversations on this board on this topic I recall the message of "liturgy is more important to us than to your church," lex orandi, lex credendi, so I tried to meet that challenge by imagining a culturally consistent Western Orthodoxy; this seems to contradict that. "Orthodoxy cares about liturgy"/"only liturgy nerds care about this."

Again, if you agree with John of Shanghai and San Francisco about not having to be Eastern to be Orthodox (and he didn't really implement that; the revived Gallican Rite was very byzantinized), then you'd mirror unlatinized Eastern Catholic churches by having authentically Western expressions of Orthodoxy in order to respect perfectly good rites and for your attempted witness to us.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2017, 09:44:41 AM »
then you'd mirror unlatinized Eastern Catholic churches by having authentically Western expressions of Orthodoxy in order to respect perfectly good rites and for your attempted witness to us.

I'm not aware of many such parishes; well, actually, I know two: one in Kostomłoty (Poland), that's Greek Catholic of synodal rite and one Ukrainian Greek Catholic in Canada, st. Elias.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2017, 09:52:18 AM »
I can name a few in the U.S., such as Melkite parishes, such as Transfiguration in McLean, Virginia (suburb of Washington, DC), and the Russian Catholic parishes, originally failed projects to convert the Russian Orthodox that are now made up of born Catholic non-Russians who love the rite and culture. Two examples I've been to. Even my very ordinary Ukrainian Catholic part-time parish, while not doing everything Orthodox parishes do (no antidoron, for example), thanks to Rome encouraging delatinization and the bishops implementing it, is Byzantine enough that much of the time (except the spoken Liturgy when the diak can't make it), American Slavic Orthodox would feel at home. Interesting side note: among the icons on the walls from the two former parishes merged to form my part-time place is one of Jesus in which the heart has been painted over because that's not native to the rite. We're not trying to diminish the Eastern rites; quite the opposite.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2017, 10:09:59 AM »
I can name a few in the U.S., such as Melkite parishes, such as Transfiguration in McLean, Virginia (suburb of Washington, DC), and the Russian Catholic parishes, originally failed projects to convert the Russian Orthodox that are now made up of born Catholic non-Russians who love the rite and culture. Two examples I've been to. Even my very ordinary Ukrainian Catholic part-time parish, while not doing everything Orthodox parishes do (no antidoron, for example), thanks to Rome encouraging delatinization and the bishops implementing it, is Byzantine enough that much of the time (except the spoken Liturgy when the diak can't make it), American Slavic Orthodox would feel at home. Interesting side note: among the icons on the walls from the two former parishes merged to form my part-time place is one of Jesus in which the heart has been painted over because that's not native to the rite. We're not trying to diminish the Eastern rites; quite the opposite.

Maybe it works more for North America, but I have some doubts. For Eaestern and South Eurpe - nto really. The same "not really" applies to the Middle East.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2017, 10:31:24 AM »
Why not in Eastern and Southern Europe? And the Melkites are based in the Middle East.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2017, 10:50:30 AM »
There are two ancient baptistries at Ravenna: the Orthodox Baptistry and the Arian Baptistry.  The Byzantine artwork in the two, which were constructed by the Ostrogothic ruler to cater to the two groups and avoid a schism, is virtually identical; there is just one striking difference, that being that in the Arian Baptistry our Lord appears as a beardless young man, no older than 20, whereas in the Orthodox Baptistry he has a beard and His normal, mature, adult appearance.
Another striking difference is that in the orthodox mosaic Christ is modestly depicted and in the Arian one, not.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2017, 11:03:19 AM »
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art
Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.
Pretty much. The San Damiano crucifix is a good example. Similar to Byzantine but not Byzantine.
Good.  Because sometimes you gave me the impression of defending the Renaissance style, which is too sentimental and realistic for worship, having more to do with the Arian style of the Ravenna baptistry mosaics than with the orthodox one in the same city.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2017, 01:26:52 PM »
Why not in Eastern and Southern Europe? And the Melkites are based in the Middle East.

I'm from Eastern and Southern Europe, have been also to Greek Catholics, I know some such priests. So I just know their practices and mentality.

The Middle East - I'm at Arabic studies, so, again, I have some knowledge.

And the Melkites in the Middle East, and the Melkites abroad... it's quite a different story. But even the second one, I think, our Rapha from Brasil said, that because of being latinised most of Latin American Melkites lost their parishes, rite and memory about their roots, origins.
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Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2017, 01:43:50 PM »
Funny enough, there has been speculation that in what's known as the Arian baptistery the mosaics were made by Orthodox christians as the Ostrogoths were mostly Goldsmiths.