Author Topic: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council  (Read 2045 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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The Pan-orthodox Council held on the island of Crete in June 2016 established its succession to the Council held in Constantinople in 1872. Both Councils dealt with the topic of nationalism, which the majority of scholars agree is a modern phenomenon: nationalism, and even national identity, constitute an intrinsic feature of modernity. The two Councils, however, addressed this phenomenon each in their own way.

The rest here.

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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2017, 10:17:54 AM »
My thoughts:

Fr. Cyril produces an interesting distinction between two kinds of phyletism: ethno-phyletism, specific to a particular nation, and civilizational or imperial phyletism. He then points out that the 1872 council in Constantinople condemned the latter (addressing Bulgarian nationalism and its attempt to form a Bulgarian exarchate within Constantinople) but overlooked its own Phanariot phyletism. So far, so good.

Things get weird though. He says the Cretan Pan-Orthodox council gave a complete condemnation (implicitly) of both kinds of phyletism, and therefore represented a step forward. He speaks almost as if the old Phanariot phyletism somehow vanished over the last century and was not a factor at all in the recent council. Instead, the main form of civilizational phyletism is the Russkiy Mir being pushed by Moscow. And, truth be told, I find Russian nationalism and the MP's complicity in it loathsome.

But Fr. Cyril gets pretty paranoid and essentially says that the only reason the Church of Antioch and other churches backed out of the council was because of MP influence. He does not even acknowledge Antioch's stated reason- the Jerusalem Patriarchates incursion into Antioch's canonical territory, and the EP's refusal to help resolve the issue. And this issue has everything to do with the civilizational phyletism Fr. Cyril opposes, namely the Phanariot phyletism that he himself acknowledged to exist, or to at least have existed before. It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2017, 10:28:13 AM »
The second paragraph:
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The Council of Constantinople gathered specifically to cope with the issue of nationalism, at the time of the Bulgarian “national awakening.” The Council of Crete, in contrast, met without a particular issue to solve. Its purpose was to meet for the sake of meeting and demonstrating the ability of the Orthodox Churches to come together. Without such a council, the idea of “conciliarity” as the core of modern Orthodox identity would not stand. Crete dealt with the issue of nationalism on the margins.

This exposes, inadvertently, a key problem of the Crete council- it "met without a particular issue to solve", despite the fact that there are many particular issues that urgently need solving. "Its purpose was to meet for the sake of meeting and demonstrating the ability of the Orthodox Churches to come together"- in other words, sweep substantial problems under the rug, or kick them down the road, and just come together to demonstrate an artificial unity. Fr. Cyril says it himself and yet he does not see the problem of "meet[ing] for the sake of meeting."

And he confuses Orthodox conciliarity with conciliarism, the idea that Church-wide councils are the highest authority of the church and therefore indispensably must be convened for the church to function, an idea I call Hive-Papacy that is just as alien to Orthodoxy as papal supremacy.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:30:07 AM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2017, 11:16:42 AM »
Iconodule, I think your analysis is pretty dead-on.

It's very important for the Crete Meet's few remaining propagandists to ignore Antioch's very longstanding objections to holding a council under the circumstances it was held, because (at least in English) the only rhetorical tactic they seem able to employ is to stir up anxiety about Russia.

I think he reads the condemnation of phyletism as much broader than the text (or its historical circumstances) allows, but the concept of "civilizational-imperial" phyletism is at least interesting-- especially if it can be employed to heal Orthodoxy of the damage wrought by "Hellenism" and "Romiosyne" and to dislodge our conception of the Church from being rooted in a quite dead empire. I mean, there may be real danger in signing on for Russian empire, but at least, it's uh... real. Rooting one's ecclesiastical self-understanding in a dead empire is rooting it in absurdity and bathos.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2017, 01:11:35 PM »
Iconodule, I think your analysis is pretty dead-on.

It's very important for the Crete Meet's few remaining propagandists to ignore Antioch's very longstanding objections to holding a council under the circumstances it was held, because (at least in English) the only rhetorical tactic they seem able to employ is to stir up anxiety about Russia.

I think he reads the condemnation of phyletism as much broader than the text (or its historical circumstances) allows, but the concept of "civilizational-imperial" phyletism is at least interesting-- especially if it can be employed to heal Orthodoxy of the damage wrought by "Hellenism" and "Romiosyne" and to dislodge our conception of the Church from being rooted in a quite dead empire. I mean, there may be real danger in signing on for Russian empire, but at least, it's uh... real. Rooting one's ecclesiastical self-understanding in a dead empire is rooting it in absurdity and bathos.

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental? When you begin to call upon Christians to forget Alexandria, then perhaps I'll begin to take your surreally-bitter screed here seriously.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2017, 01:13:37 PM »
Iconodule, I think your analysis is pretty dead-on.

It's very important for the Crete Meet's few remaining propagandists to ignore Antioch's very longstanding objections to holding a council under the circumstances it was held, because (at least in English) the only rhetorical tactic they seem able to employ is to stir up anxiety about Russia.

I think he reads the condemnation of phyletism as much broader than the text (or its historical circumstances) allows, but the concept of "civilizational-imperial" phyletism is at least interesting-- especially if it can be employed to heal Orthodoxy of the damage wrought by "Hellenism" and "Romiosyne" and to dislodge our conception of the Church from being rooted in a quite dead empire. I mean, there may be real danger in signing on for Russian empire, but at least, it's uh... real. Rooting one's ecclesiastical self-understanding in a dead empire is rooting it in absurdity and bathos.

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental?

Sam is EO so your ad hominem misses the mark.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2017, 01:19:12 PM »
If you think it's a personal attack to ask whether someone is Oriental Orthodox, you need to recalibrate your regard for that Holy Church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2017, 01:23:03 PM »
If you think it's a personal attack to ask whether someone is Oriental Orthodox, you need to recalibrate your regard for that Holy Church.

Ad hominem is not necessarily a personal attack. In this case you are attempting to invalidate Sam's points by pointing to his personal church affiliation as a disqualifier. That's classic ad hominem, regardless of what you or I think of the Oriental Orthodox communion (I hold them in high regard).
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 01:25:34 PM »
I am Eastern Orthodox, though I do think many Oriental Orthodox have a much healthier attitude towards empire. I don't think it's bitter (or I don't feel bitter, I guess) pointing out that Byzantium and Romiosyne aren't really the contexts for most of Orthodoxy, now or historically, and so those elements of the Church that insist on them are umm... at best indulging in misguided nostalgia, to the detriment of the Church as a whole.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 01:25:54 PM »
If you think it's a personal attack to ask whether someone is Oriental Orthodox, you need to recalibrate your regard for that Holy Church.

Ad hominem is not necessarily a personal attack. In this case you are attempting to invalidate Sam's points by pointing to his personal church affiliation as a disqualifier. That's classic ad hominem, regardless of what you or I think of the Oriental Orthodox communion (I hold them in high regard).

If this were true, you would not need to force the point by deleting the bulk of my reply to him. Now run along.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 01:26:33 PM »
I am Eastern Orthodox, though I do think many Oriental Orthodox have a much healthier attitude towards empire. I don't think it's bitter (or I don't feel bitter, I guess) pointing out that Byzantium and Romiosyne aren't really the contexts for most of Orthodoxy, now or historically, and so those elements of the Church that insist on them are umm... at best indulging in misguided nostalgia, to the detriment of the Church as a whole.

You keep misspelling Holy Tradition. You might want to get that looked at.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 01:27:34 PM »
I thought you were OO because you gave some very intelligent information in some other threads. Are you at least an orientalist?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 01:28:57 PM »
If you think it's a personal attack to ask whether someone is Oriental Orthodox, you need to recalibrate your regard for that Holy Church.

Ad hominem is not necessarily a personal attack. In this case you are attempting to invalidate Sam's points by pointing to his personal church affiliation as a disqualifier. That's classic ad hominem, regardless of what you or I think of the Oriental Orthodox communion (I hold them in high regard).

If this were true, you would not need to force the point by deleting the bulk of my reply to him. Now run along.

I "deleted" nothing. Your paranoia is Stalin-like. Thankfully you are powerless.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 01:30:26 PM »

You keep misspelling Holy Tradition. You might want to get that looked at.

I don't follow.

As for orientalist, I speak Arab (non-natively) and have a good command of Syriac, yes.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 01:30:39 PM by Samn! »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 01:34:18 PM »
I "deleted" nothing. Your paranoia is Stalin-like. Thankfully you are powerless.

What is this? Did you skip breakfast?

You quoted:

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental?

But I wrote:

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental? When you begin to call upon Christians to forget Alexandria, then perhaps I'll begin to take your surreally-bitter screed here seriously.

The point being that the ancient patriarchal fonts of Holy Tradition it is proper and right to cleave to, wherever they are.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 01:39:41 PM »


The point being that the ancient patriarchal fonts of Holy Tradition it is proper and right to cleave to, wherever they are.

In some senses, probably most people would agree with this, though it needs a lot of unpacking. But what I'm talking about is more situations where clergy claim that Hellenism is a 'universal culture' (I have personally seen EP bishops claim this), rather than one culture among many, or that the Byzantine Empire is somehow a reference for the way the church's affairs should be ordered today. Or when one patriarchate attempts to use the notional prestige of its position in a dead empire to cause problems for a substantially more ancient and apostolic see, as Constantinople did to Antioch during the whole lead-up to Crete.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 01:39:51 PM »
I "deleted" nothing. Your paranoia is Stalin-like. Thankfully you are powerless.

What is this? Did you skip breakfast?

You quoted:

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental?

But I wrote:

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental? When you begin to call upon Christians to forget Alexandria, then perhaps I'll begin to take your surreally-bitter screed here seriously.

The point being that the ancient patriarchal fonts of Holy Tradition it is proper and right to cleave to, wherever they are.

Your point was contingent on him being "oriental", so stands or falls with it.

Holy Tradition has nothing to do with nostalgia for dead empires. Perhaps this is hard for you to understand, coming from a faith tradition that equates piety with dressing like a 16th century German peasant.

Now would you like to actually address Sam's points or just keep boiling yourself in the soup of your own obliviousness? That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Here, add some carrots.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2017, 01:59:05 PM »
For somebody who has such an allergy to personal remark he finds it wherever he turns, you certainly must have put on a medical mask or maybe blinders when you read Samn's "points." Which, after all, were nothing more than calling names and implying motives. I have no intention of tiring myself by averring again that, no, a holy council of Churches is not a "Crete Meet," no, holy fathers are not "propagandists" nor ashamed and few, no, my jurisdiction is not a dead empire, &c., &c., &c. Indeed, I have no intention of lowering myself into his bath of self-shame. And you, you should forswear any such intention as well as you are a child of Holy Orthodoxy and even share a jurisdiction with me. Leave Samn in silence to consider his ways, and that pomp is not a real camouflage for poison.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2017, 03:12:58 PM »
My thoughts:

Fr. Cyril produces an interesting distinction between two kinds of phyletism: ethno-phyletism, specific to a particular nation, and civilizational or imperial phyletism. He then points out that the 1872 council in Constantinople condemned the latter (addressing Bulgarian nationalism and its attempt to form a Bulgarian exarchate within Constantinople) but overlooked its own Phanariot phyletism. So far, so good.

Things get weird though. He says the Cretan Pan-Orthodox council gave a complete condemnation (implicitly) of both kinds of phyletism, and therefore represented a step forward. He speaks almost as if the old Phanariot phyletism somehow vanished over the last century and was not a factor at all in the recent council. Instead, the main form of civilizational phyletism is the Russkiy Mir being pushed by Moscow. And, truth be told, I find Russian nationalism and the MP's complicity in it loathsome.

But Fr. Cyril gets pretty paranoid and essentially says that the only reason the Church of Antioch and other churches backed out of the council was because of MP influence. He does not even acknowledge Antioch's stated reason- the Jerusalem Patriarchates incursion into Antioch's canonical territory, and the EP's refusal to help resolve the issue. And this issue has everything to do with the civilizational phyletism Fr. Cyril opposes, namely the Phanariot phyletism that he himself acknowledged to exist, or to at least have existed before. It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.
I agree entirely.

It's almost embarrassing what can pass as reasonable academic analysis in some quarters of our Church.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 03:13:14 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2017, 03:15:26 PM »
For somebody who has such an allergy to personal remark he finds it wherever he turns, you certainly must have put on a medical mask or maybe blinders when you read Samn's "points." Which, after all, were nothing more than calling names and implying motives. I have no intention of tiring myself by averring again that, no, a holy council of Churches is not a "Crete Meet," no, holy fathers are not "propagandists" nor ashamed and few, no, my jurisdiction is not a dead empire, &c., &c., &c. Indeed, I have no intention of lowering myself into his bath of self-shame. And you, you should forswear any such intention as well as you are a child of Holy Orthodoxy and even share a jurisdiction with me. Leave Samn in silence to consider his ways, and that pomp is not a real camouflage for poison.

Belonging to the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not entitle me to ignore or endorse its abuses, or to confuse Hellenism with the faith itself. If you think that A) Hellenism is coterminous with Christianity, and B) that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has default jurisdiction over "barbarian lands" on the basis of the borders of an empire that hasn't existed for over 500 years, and/or C) that the EP is within its rights to interfere in the affairs of autocephalous churches (as it did recently in the Slovak/Czech Church)--- come out and say it! Otherwise, what's your point?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 03:19:03 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2017, 03:21:49 PM »
My thoughts:

Fr. Cyril produces an interesting distinction between two kinds of phyletism: ethno-phyletism, specific to a particular nation, and civilizational or imperial phyletism. He then points out that the 1872 council in Constantinople condemned the latter (addressing Bulgarian nationalism and its attempt to form a Bulgarian exarchate within Constantinople) but overlooked its own Phanariot phyletism. So far, so good.

Things get weird though. He says the Cretan Pan-Orthodox council gave a complete condemnation (implicitly) of both kinds of phyletism, and therefore represented a step forward. He speaks almost as if the old Phanariot phyletism somehow vanished over the last century and was not a factor at all in the recent council. Instead, the main form of civilizational phyletism is the Russkiy Mir being pushed by Moscow. And, truth be told, I find Russian nationalism and the MP's complicity in it loathsome.

But Fr. Cyril gets pretty paranoid and essentially says that the only reason the Church of Antioch and other churches backed out of the council was because of MP influence. He does not even acknowledge Antioch's stated reason- the Jerusalem Patriarchates incursion into Antioch's canonical territory, and the EP's refusal to help resolve the issue. And this issue has everything to do with the civilizational phyletism Fr. Cyril opposes, namely the Phanariot phyletism that he himself acknowledged to exist, or to at least have existed before. It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.
I agree entirely.

It's almost embarrassing what can pass as reasonable academic analysis in some quarters of our Church.

How are you coping with what OC.net claims is a division between the Archdiocese and the Patriarchate (the issue of the Chicago metropolitanate), since I know in the past you've posted expressions of acute distaste for both? Is it tearing you apart to decide which camp you have to like now?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2017, 04:01:20 PM »
For somebody who has such an allergy to personal remark he finds it wherever he turns, you certainly must have put on a medical mask or maybe blinders when you read Samn's "points." Which, after all, were nothing more than calling names and implying motives. I have no intention of tiring myself by averring again that, no, a holy council of Churches is not a "Crete Meet," no, holy fathers are not "propagandists" nor ashamed and few, no, my jurisdiction is not a dead empire, &c., &c., &c. Indeed, I have no intention of lowering myself into his bath of self-shame. And you, you should forswear any such intention as well as you are a child of Holy Orthodoxy and even share a jurisdiction with me. Leave Samn in silence to consider his ways, and that pomp is not a real camouflage for poison.

Dude.. take a deep breath. I, like most Orthodox, do not hold Crete to have been a council in any meaningful sense. I think that's a fair position. Some of the "holy fathers" who are arguing for the acceptance of Crete have lied very boldly and knowingly about Antioch's position- Dn John Chryssavgis and Fr Hovorun here are two such examples of going beyond making an argument in good faith and passing into propaganda.

As for dead empires.. is GOARCH equivalent to the (verifiably dead) Byzantine Empire? That's kind of my point, that train of thinking leads off a cliff.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2017, 04:11:00 PM »
I, like most Orthodox, do not hold Crete to have been a council in any meaningful sense. I think that's a fair position.

So to insult you add denial. Clearly you run in very specific spiritual circles and have imbibed a very specific brand of spiritual punch. So you cannot be blamed for originating the nonsense you post, but you can be blamed for perpetuating it. The fact is the holy council was prepared for for decades by hundreds of holy and learned men on multiple continents, and even its final documents were signed by hundreds of hierarchs. Even its critics of substance do not deny this. And in fact such critics are few, and the criticism particular. Holy Athos after deliberation announced their support of the results. And "most Orthodox," to quote you, are as aware of all this as they are of anything else about their Church. The delusion you express in this thread is what is rare.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 04:11:55 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2017, 04:15:54 PM »
I, like most Orthodox, do not hold Crete to have been a council in any meaningful sense. I think that's a fair position.

So to insult you add denial. Clearly you run in very specific spiritual circles and have imbibed a very specific brand of spiritual punch. So you cannot be blamed for originating the nonsense you post, but you can be blamed for perpetuating it. The fact is the holy council was prepared for for decades by hundreds of holy and learned men on multiple continents, and even its final documents were signed by hundreds of hierarchs. Even its critics of substance do not deny this. And in fact such critics are few, and the criticism particular. Holy Athos after deliberation announced their support of the results. And "most Orthodox," to quote you, are as aware of all this as they are of anything else about their Church. The delusion you express in this thread is what is rare.

Most Orthodox bishops belong to churches that did not accept the council. This is what I mean by most Orthodox. I think it's perfectly possible in good faith to support what happened on Crete. I don't think rejecting it as a council, however, makes one a part of "very specific spiritual circles". Likewise, I think that a lot of arguments being made in support of it are not being made in good faith. As exemplified by pieces like the one above, that depends on a mix of misrepresenting Antioch and explicit Russophobia, rather than a positive argument for Crete which, even by the author's admission, didn't actually solve any issue or say anything of substance.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2017, 04:16:51 PM »
My thoughts:

Fr. Cyril produces an interesting distinction between two kinds of phyletism: ethno-phyletism, specific to a particular nation, and civilizational or imperial phyletism. He then points out that the 1872 council in Constantinople condemned the latter (addressing Bulgarian nationalism and its attempt to form a Bulgarian exarchate within Constantinople) but overlooked its own Phanariot phyletism. So far, so good.

Things get weird though. He says the Cretan Pan-Orthodox council gave a complete condemnation (implicitly) of both kinds of phyletism, and therefore represented a step forward. He speaks almost as if the old Phanariot phyletism somehow vanished over the last century and was not a factor at all in the recent council. Instead, the main form of civilizational phyletism is the Russkiy Mir being pushed by Moscow. And, truth be told, I find Russian nationalism and the MP's complicity in it loathsome.

But Fr. Cyril gets pretty paranoid and essentially says that the only reason the Church of Antioch and other churches backed out of the council was because of MP influence. He does not even acknowledge Antioch's stated reason- the Jerusalem Patriarchates incursion into Antioch's canonical territory, and the EP's refusal to help resolve the issue. And this issue has everything to do with the civilizational phyletism Fr. Cyril opposes, namely the Phanariot phyletism that he himself acknowledged to exist, or to at least have existed before. It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.
I agree entirely.

It's almost embarrassing what can pass as reasonable academic analysis in some quarters of our Church.

How are you coping with what OC.net claims is a division between the Archdiocese and the Patriarchate (the issue of the Chicago metropolitanate), since I know in the past you've posted expressions of acute distaste for both? Is it tearing you apart to decide which camp you have to like now?
Porter, please, take a chill pill.

And if you would really like to know, and aren't just trying to get in a cheap shot, I don't feel a particular need to be in either "camp."
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2017, 04:19:26 PM »
My thoughts:

Fr. Cyril produces an interesting distinction between two kinds of phyletism: ethno-phyletism, specific to a particular nation, and civilizational or imperial phyletism. He then points out that the 1872 council in Constantinople condemned the latter (addressing Bulgarian nationalism and its attempt to form a Bulgarian exarchate within Constantinople) but overlooked its own Phanariot phyletism. So far, so good.

Things get weird though. He says the Cretan Pan-Orthodox council gave a complete condemnation (implicitly) of both kinds of phyletism, and therefore represented a step forward. He speaks almost as if the old Phanariot phyletism somehow vanished over the last century and was not a factor at all in the recent council. Instead, the main form of civilizational phyletism is the Russkiy Mir being pushed by Moscow. And, truth be told, I find Russian nationalism and the MP's complicity in it loathsome.

But Fr. Cyril gets pretty paranoid and essentially says that the only reason the Church of Antioch and other churches backed out of the council was because of MP influence. He does not even acknowledge Antioch's stated reason- the Jerusalem Patriarchates incursion into Antioch's canonical territory, and the EP's refusal to help resolve the issue. And this issue has everything to do with the civilizational phyletism Fr. Cyril opposes, namely the Phanariot phyletism that he himself acknowledged to exist, or to at least have existed before. It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.
I agree entirely.

It's almost embarrassing what can pass as reasonable academic analysis in some quarters of our Church.

How are you coping with what OC.net claims is a division between the Archdiocese and the Patriarchate (the issue of the Chicago metropolitanate), since I know in the past you've posted expressions of acute distaste for both? Is it tearing you apart to decide which camp you have to like now?
Porter, please, take a chill pill.

And if you would really like to know, and aren't just trying to get in a cheap shot, I don't feel a particular need to be in either "camp."

I assumed. Emotions are rarely encumbered by analysis, of whether they contradict or anything else. I just wish I knew what changed you.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2017, 04:23:33 PM »
I don't recall Antonis ever being a kneejerk, mouth-foaming defender of every chance whim of the current administration of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2017, 04:36:43 PM »
I don't recall Antonis ever being a kneejerk, mouth-foaming defender of every chance whim of the current administration of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Practicing our straw-work now, are we?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 04:54:46 PM »
My thoughts:

Fr. Cyril produces an interesting distinction between two kinds of phyletism: ethno-phyletism, specific to a particular nation, and civilizational or imperial phyletism. He then points out that the 1872 council in Constantinople condemned the latter (addressing Bulgarian nationalism and its attempt to form a Bulgarian exarchate within Constantinople) but overlooked its own Phanariot phyletism. So far, so good.

Things get weird though. He says the Cretan Pan-Orthodox council gave a complete condemnation (implicitly) of both kinds of phyletism, and therefore represented a step forward. He speaks almost as if the old Phanariot phyletism somehow vanished over the last century and was not a factor at all in the recent council. Instead, the main form of civilizational phyletism is the Russkiy Mir being pushed by Moscow. And, truth be told, I find Russian nationalism and the MP's complicity in it loathsome.

But Fr. Cyril gets pretty paranoid and essentially says that the only reason the Church of Antioch and other churches backed out of the council was because of MP influence. He does not even acknowledge Antioch's stated reason- the Jerusalem Patriarchates incursion into Antioch's canonical territory, and the EP's refusal to help resolve the issue. And this issue has everything to do with the civilizational phyletism Fr. Cyril opposes, namely the Phanariot phyletism that he himself acknowledged to exist, or to at least have existed before. It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.
I agree entirely.

It's almost embarrassing what can pass as reasonable academic analysis in some quarters of our Church.

How are you coping with what OC.net claims is a division between the Archdiocese and the Patriarchate (the issue of the Chicago metropolitanate), since I know in the past you've posted expressions of acute distaste for both? Is it tearing you apart to decide which camp you have to like now?
Porter, please, take a chill pill.

And if you would really like to know, and aren't just trying to get in a cheap shot, I don't feel a particular need to be in either "camp."

I assumed. Emotions are rarely encumbered by analysis, of whether they contradict or anything else. I just wish I knew what changed you.
I try to be loyal to Christ, and to His Church and its inheritance. I also try to operate in realities, even if they are not as sunny as some other wishfully-perceived reality might be. I don't hold allegiances for their own sake, I hold them insofar as they propagate faith in Christ and loyalty to His teachings and His Body.

For that reason, I will cheer fidelity to Christ and Church Tradition, and I will frown on--and, in my sinfulness, perhaps even be enraged by--politicking, pride, lives of unrepentant wantonness, the introduction of concepts foreign to the Gospel, etc, no matter their source.

I really try to keep it simple. It doesn't always stay that way, but that's the prism I try to operate out of. Frankly, I would probably be better off ignorant and unassuming!
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2017, 05:18:52 PM »
No one could object to any of that. Still, its implications go beyond the apparent. You have evidently discovered all these base traits in our heirarchy, and, besides, what is worse, nothing enough to balance them. You have also discovered them within a very small, specific time-period. The mind races -- the "ignorant and unassuming" mind, as you put it -- considering the implications. And yet the Church abides and bears much fruit. As a member of a Greek parish, I gladly know this to be so. Our jurisdiction's fruits and works are abundant and of a quality of which to be proud. Could they be greater? Are they fully worthy the epigonen of the Cappadocians? Well of course they are not. But without our support they will not only fail to improve but surely wither. The conniving of the Genuinists and the ambitions of the hyper-Slavists are understandable, in purely human terms. They will concoct their propaganda, they will water the root of bitterness -- this humans do. But your situation is not the result of that and seems unique.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2017, 05:37:03 PM »
No one could object to any of that. Still, its implications go beyond the apparent. You have evidently discovered all these base traits in our heirarchy, and, besides, what is worse, nothing enough to balance them. You have also discovered them within a very small, specific time-period. The mind races -- the "ignorant and unassuming" mind, as you put it -- considering the implications. And yet the Church abides and bears much fruit. As a member of a Greek parish, I gladly know this to be so. Our jurisdiction's fruits and works are abundant and of a quality of which to be proud. Could they be greater? Are they fully worthy the epigonen of the Cappadocians? Well of course they are not. But without our support they will not only fail to improve but surely wither. The conniving of the Genuinists and the ambitions of the hyper-Slavists are understandable, in purely human terms. They will concoct their propaganda, they will water the root of bitterness -- this humans do. But your situation is not the result of that and seems unique.
I think you are reading into me too much. I've had no dramatic personal experiences which have "soured" me into a particular position. 95% of what I refer to is publicly available or observable to an average parishioner.

To be honest, it seems you may have divided the Orthodox world into camps more than I have, but maybe I am reading you wrong.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2017, 05:46:28 PM »
And yet the Church abides...

Like the Dude...
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2017, 05:58:02 PM »
No one could object to any of that. Still, its implications go beyond the apparent. You have evidently discovered all these base traits in our heirarchy, and, besides, what is worse, nothing enough to balance them. You have also discovered them within a very small, specific time-period. The mind races -- the "ignorant and unassuming" mind, as you put it -- considering the implications. And yet the Church abides and bears much fruit. As a member of a Greek parish, I gladly know this to be so. Our jurisdiction's fruits and works are abundant and of a quality of which to be proud. Could they be greater? Are they fully worthy the epigonen of the Cappadocians? Well of course they are not. But without our support they will not only fail to improve but surely wither. The conniving of the Genuinists and the ambitions of the hyper-Slavists are understandable, in purely human terms. They will concoct their propaganda, they will water the root of bitterness -- this humans do. But your situation is not the result of that and seems unique.
I think you are reading into me too much. I've had no dramatic personal experiences which have "soured" me into a particular position. 95% of what I refer to is publicly available or observable to an average parishioner.

To be honest, it seems you may have divided the Orthodox world into camps more than I have, but maybe I am reading you wrong.

No one could object to any of that. Still, its implications go beyond the apparent. You have evidently discovered all these base traits in our heirarchy, and, besides, what is worse, nothing enough to balance them. You have also discovered them within a very small, specific time-period. The mind races -- the "ignorant and unassuming" mind, as you put it -- considering the implications. And yet the Church abides and bears much fruit. As a member of a Greek parish, I gladly know this to be so. Our jurisdiction's fruits and works are abundant and of a quality of which to be proud. Could they be greater? Are they fully worthy the epigonen of the Cappadocians? Well of course they are not. But without our support they will not only fail to improve but surely wither. The conniving of the Genuinists and the ambitions of the hyper-Slavists are understandable, in purely human terms. They will concoct their propaganda, they will water the root of bitterness -- this humans do. But your situation is not the result of that and seems unique.
I think you are reading into me too much. I've had no dramatic personal experiences which have "soured" me into a particular position. 95% of what I refer to is publicly available or observable to an average parishioner.

To be honest, it seems you may have divided the Orthodox world into camps more than I have, but maybe I am reading you wrong.

I'm just a person trying to make sense of the waves of hatred and near-schism washing over a jurisdiction that seems to be doing a good job, to me. It's deeply troubling to someone who loves the Church and believes as a matter of foundational doctrine in Church harmony and unity. I mean, I know OC.netters are often "special" and not to be taken as characteristic. But you're not just OC.net, as you've come across, to me, as sincere, knowledgeable, and grounded. And, at one time, a faithful Greek. And so you present a unique problem to make sense of. Now, I grant it is a bit farcical of me to ruminate on all this in public. Today is one of those days, so don't pay too much attention.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2017, 06:04:59 PM »
So, Antonis, how does it feel to be no longer a faithful Greek?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2017, 06:54:01 PM »
Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental?

But you're not just OC.net, as you've come across, to me, as sincere, knowledgeable, and grounded. And, at one time, a faithful Greek.

Wow.  What is going on in Doran Land today?
Now accepting brief PMs.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2017, 07:40:02 PM »
I'd love to play, but I'm going to give you time to go back and read the thread.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2017, 08:17:21 PM »
So, Antonis, how does it feel to be no longer a faithful Greek?
As one who just spent the larger part of his summer in Greece being Greek and doing Greek things with Greeks, even speaking a fair amount of Greek, I'm stunned.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2017, 08:33:58 PM »
Iconodule, I think your analysis is pretty dead-on.
Except for the loathing of the MP, I would agree.

I thought one need read no farther after reading this
Quote
I think the Council of Crete stood above all these forms of nationalism, and its condemnation of nationalism was not inspired by any other sort of nationalism, but rather by a universal vision of Christian mission in the modern world.

"we can say that the Council of Constantinople in 1872 condemned ethnophyletism," as he suggests, only if we admit that the condemners ranked first as practitioners-and hence projectors.

Of course, the Ukrainian Hovorun, fails to see the irony-or rather, tries to cover it up, in his Russophobe tirades.

It's very important for the Crete Meet's few remaining propagandists to ignore Antioch's very longstanding objections to holding a council under the circumstances it was held, because (at least in English) the only rhetorical tactic they seem able to employ is to stir up anxiety about Russia.

I think he reads the condemnation of phyletism as much broader than the text (or its historical circumstances) allows, but the concept of "civilizational-imperial" phyletism is at least interesting-- especially if it can be employed to heal Orthodoxy of the damage wrought by "Hellenism" and "Romiosyne" and to dislodge our conception of the Church from being rooted in a quite dead empire. I mean, there may be real danger in signing on for Russian empire, but at least, it's uh... real. Rooting one's ecclesiastical self-understanding in a dead empire is rooting it in absurdity and bathos.
another link to the Crete Meet and the Pot-and-Kettle Council of Constantinople 1872-in the latter the Bulgarians were really in charge of their own house, the Phanariots were only abusing fellow house slaves of the Turk.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2017, 08:35:00 PM »
Iconodule, I think your analysis is pretty dead-on.

It's very important for the Crete Meet's few remaining propagandists to ignore Antioch's very longstanding objections to holding a council under the circumstances it was held, because (at least in English) the only rhetorical tactic they seem able to employ is to stir up anxiety about Russia.

I think he reads the condemnation of phyletism as much broader than the text (or its historical circumstances) allows, but the concept of "civilizational-imperial" phyletism is at least interesting-- especially if it can be employed to heal Orthodoxy of the damage wrought by "Hellenism" and "Romiosyne" and to dislodge our conception of the Church from being rooted in a quite dead empire. I mean, there may be real danger in signing on for Russian empire, but at least, it's uh... real. Rooting one's ecclesiastical self-understanding in a dead empire is rooting it in absurdity and bathos.

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental? When you begin to call upon Christians to forget Alexandria, then perhaps I'll begin to take your surreally-bitter screed here seriously.
that allergic to facts are you...
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2017, 08:37:10 PM »
If you think it's a personal attack to ask whether someone is Oriental Orthodox, you need to recalibrate your regard for that Holy Church.

Ad hominem is not necessarily a personal attack. In this case you are attempting to invalidate Sam's points by pointing to his personal church affiliation as a disqualifier. That's classic ad hominem, regardless of what you or I think of the Oriental Orthodox communion (I hold them in high regard).

If this were true, you would not need to force the point by deleting the bulk of my reply to him. Now run along.
He doesn't need to, as he has kicked you dead on while you tripped on your foot in your mouth.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2017, 08:39:51 PM »
... fellow house slaves of the Turk.

I'm not curious to know how it feels to wantonly insult one's fellow Christians like this, not to mention New Saints and Martyrs.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2017, 08:40:25 PM »
I "deleted" nothing. Your paranoia is Stalin-like. Thankfully you are powerless.

What is this? Did you skip breakfast?

You quoted:

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental?

But I wrote:

Is this even relevant to you? Aren't you Oriental? When you begin to call upon Christians to forget Alexandria, then perhaps I'll begin to take your surreally-bitter screed here seriously.

The point being that the ancient patriarchal fonts of Holy Tradition it is proper and right to cleave to, wherever they are.
You might find this more to your liking then
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm#6
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2017, 09:09:51 PM »
For somebody who has such an allergy to personal remark he finds it wherever he turns, you certainly must have put on a medical mask or maybe blinders when you read Samn's "points." Which, after all, were nothing more than calling names and implying motives.
smarting from the stings of the biting truth prevents you from seeing them as they are-merely calling a spade a spade, and stating the obvious, especially when they let their motive be known.
I have no intention of tiring myself by averring again that, no, a holy council of Churches is not a "Crete Meet," no, holy fathers are not "propagandists" nor ashamed and few, no, my jurisdiction is not a dead empire, &c., &c., &c.
The Last Ottoman Ertuğrul Osman died almost a decade ago, quite dead.
Indeed, I have no intention of lowering myself into his bath of self-shame.

 &c., &c., &c....we hear the gargling of your drowning ever deeper in your cesspool of self-shame....
And you, you should forswear any such intention as well as you are a child of Holy Orthodoxy and even share a jurisdiction with me. Leave Samn in silence to consider his ways, and that pomp is not a real camouflage for poison.
Physician, heal thyself.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2017, 09:14:01 PM »
Gosh, Isa, are you even trying?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2017, 10:11:13 PM »
... fellow house slaves of the Turk.

I'm not curious to know how it feels to wantonly insult one's fellow Christians like this, not to mention New Saints and Martyrs.
since you lack the insight into your own posts, such curiosity would be left unfulfilled anyways.

Gosh, Isa, are you even trying?
when you do being trying all so well?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:12:51 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2017, 10:29:08 PM »
How are you coping with what OC.net claims is a division between the Archdiocese and the Patriarchate (the issue of the Chicago metropolitanate)
Any news?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:29:34 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2017, 11:57:53 PM »
I'd love to play, but I'm going to give you time to go back and read the thread.

I've read it.  And I'm not entirely unsympathetic to certain aspects of your argument taken on their own merits.  I'm just wondering what qualifies you to dismiss the opinion of (someone you wrongly assumed to be) an Oriental Orthodox Christian on the matter and what qualifies you (a German-Irish convert) to determine who is and isn't a "faithful Greek" (whatever you think that means).  Or maybe you're referring to your previously stated explanation that you're acting out because this is "one of those days"?  If that's the case, hey, go nuts!  Everyone's entitled to spazz out on oc.net once in awhile.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:59:06 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Now accepting brief PMs.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2017, 12:13:48 AM »
I'd love to play, but I'm going to give you time to go back and read the thread.

I've read it.  And I'm not entirely unsympathetic to certain aspects of your argument taken on their own merits.  I'm just wondering what qualifies you to dismiss the opinion of (someone you wrongly assumed to be) an Oriental Orthodox Christian on the matter and what qualifies you (a German-Irish convert) to determine who is and isn't a "faithful Greek" (whatever you think that means).  Or maybe you're referring to your previously stated explanation that you're acting out because this is "one of those days"?  If that's the case, hey, go nuts!  Everyone's entitled to spazz out on oc.net once in awhile.

I'm assuming you're just yearning to start another of your epic tirades. But in case you're somehow truly confused, I'll answer. My interrogation of Samn was how he (Oriental Orthodox or not) damns loyalty to Constantinople as uselessly anti-modern if he wouldn't damn loyalty to Alexandria (or Antioch or Jerusalem or Rome) in the same terms. My meaning by "faithful Greek," in my address of Antonis, was "spiritually-faithful," "jurisdictionally-faithful" -- the full term being "faithful Greek Christian." I don't see either of these descriptions as personal attacks, and, for that matter, I doubt Iconodule sincerely worries that they are either, but you are welcome to your opinion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2017, 12:56:33 AM »
(a German-Irish convert)

Make that an American convert please. German-American and Irish-American folklore has not much to do with the reality in Europe.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2017, 01:11:58 AM »
(a German-Irish convert)

Make that an American convert please. German-American and Irish-American folklore has not much to do with the reality in Europe.
Oh? What reality is that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpo

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2017, 06:28:04 AM »
(a German-Irish convert)

Make that an American convert please. German-American and Irish-American folklore has not much to do with the reality in Europe.
Oh? What reality is that?

Not American obviously. Nothing wrong with that of course but you can really tell if someone's American.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2017, 09:25:35 AM »
(a German-Irish convert)

Make that an American convert please. German-American and Irish-American folklore has not much to do with the reality in Europe.
Oh? What reality is that?

Not American obviously. Nothing wrong with that of course but you can really tell if someone's American.
but not if they're European?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2017, 10:09:26 AM »
I largely agree with Iconodule's assessment of the piece. And to add to it, punching on the Patriarchate of Moscow as either sinisterly trying to take over all of Orthodoxy or the idea that it is highly jealous of Constantinople's position and so that is why the snubbed X, Y, or Z (such as Ravenna or here Crete), is something all too banal and common. Every time such accusations are thrown, I await substantiation - maybe they caught Patriarch Kirill on a hot mic talking trash about Patriarch Bartholomew or something. Never, and I mean NEVER, have I seen it substantiated. For about a year now, I've been wondering what drives this phenomenon. Could it all be true? Maybe, but lack of evidence indicates that it is just pure rubbish and paranoia. Maybe the Russo-phobia is a relic of Cold War rhetoric? Or perhaps a self-conscious acknowledgment on the part pro-Constantinople people (for lack of a better term) that the see is becoming evermore irrelevant due to a variety of causes both in and outside of its control? Or maybe, and I suspect this is mostly true for Orthodox academics in the USA, it's the view that Constantinople represents a healthy form of internationalism, while Moscow tends to favor cooperation with nationalists (particularly the Russian government), etc.? I'm deeply sympathetic to this latter view, yet I cannot bring myself to agree with some of the ecclesiological beliefs that Constantinople either seems to shelter or outright propagate, mostly because they are completely ahistorical and based on terribly limited scholarship.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2017, 10:44:26 AM »
I largely agree with Iconodule's assessment of the piece. And to add to it, punching on the Patriarchate of Moscow as either sinisterly trying to take over all of Orthodoxy or the idea that it is highly jealous of Constantinople's position and so that is why the snubbed X, Y, or Z (such as Ravenna or here Crete), is something all too banal and common. Every time such accusations are thrown, I await substantiation - maybe they caught Patriarch Kirill on a hot mic talking trash about Patriarch Bartholomew or something. Never, and I mean NEVER, have I seen it substantiated. For about a year now, I've been wondering what drives this phenomenon. Could it all be true? Maybe, but lack of evidence indicates that it is just pure rubbish and paranoia. Maybe the Russo-phobia is a relic of Cold War rhetoric? Or perhaps a self-conscious acknowledgment on the part pro-Constantinople people (for lack of a better term) that the see is becoming evermore irrelevant due to a variety of causes both in and outside of its control? Or maybe, and I suspect this is mostly true for Orthodox academics in the USA, it's the view that Constantinople represents a healthy form of internationalism, while Moscow tends to favor cooperation with nationalists (particularly the Russian government), etc.? I'm deeply sympathetic to this latter view, yet I cannot bring myself to agree with some of the ecclesiological beliefs that Constantinople either seems to shelter or outright propagate, mostly because they are completely ahistorical and based on terribly limited scholarship.

Well, there's a lot of reasons for anxiety about Russia that converge to greater or lesser degrees. With the article above, it's important to remember that its author is a priest of the Moscow Patriarchate who has at various times held important administrative positions in it. He's also Ukrainian and it's hard not to read his writings about ecclesiology (he's very prolific) as being motivated to some degree by Ukrainian nationalist (of the more liberal, pro-EU bent) concerns.

On the other hand, fear of Russia usurping its position is at this point a major part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate's institutional identity. You can look at statements and historical documents going back at least a couple centuries where this fear is either the implicit or explicit motivation for the EP's ecclesio-political moves. During the Cold War, this led to it cooperate closely with the US government- Patriarch Athenegoras was an American citizen who, upon his election (during which US pressure led Turkey to allow a patriarch without Turkish nationality) was famously flown to Istanbul on President Truman's personal plane.

In the run-up to Crete, the EP did a good job of courting both diaspora Ukrainians and English-speaking academics (there's a venn diagram there...) to support its cause. This involved making a lot of effort to portray itself as the more open, progressive and Western-minded Church, who could lead things against both the anti-ecumenists and the Russians, who often get conflated.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2017, 11:02:45 AM »
I largely agree with Iconodule's assessment of the piece. And to add to it, punching on the Patriarchate of Moscow as either sinisterly trying to take over all of Orthodoxy or the idea that it is highly jealous of Constantinople's position and so that is why the snubbed X, Y, or Z (such as Ravenna or here Crete), is something all too banal and common. Every time such accusations are thrown, I await substantiation - maybe they caught Patriarch Kirill on a hot mic talking trash about Patriarch Bartholomew or something. Never, and I mean NEVER, have I seen it substantiated. For about a year now, I've been wondering what drives this phenomenon. Could it all be true? Maybe, but lack of evidence indicates that it is just pure rubbish and paranoia. Maybe the Russo-phobia is a relic of Cold War rhetoric? Or perhaps a self-conscious acknowledgment on the part pro-Constantinople people (for lack of a better term) that the see is becoming evermore irrelevant due to a variety of causes both in and outside of its control? Or maybe, and I suspect this is mostly true for Orthodox academics in the USA, it's the view that Constantinople represents a healthy form of internationalism, while Moscow tends to favor cooperation with nationalists (particularly the Russian government), etc.? I'm deeply sympathetic to this latter view, yet I cannot bring myself to agree with some of the ecclesiological beliefs that Constantinople either seems to shelter or outright propagate, mostly because they are completely ahistorical and based on terribly limited scholarship.

Well, there's a lot of reasons for anxiety about Russia that converge to greater or lesser degrees. With the article above, it's important to remember that its author is a priest of the Moscow Patriarchate who has at various times held important administrative positions in it. He's also Ukrainian and it's hard not to read his writings about ecclesiology (he's very prolific) as being motivated to some degree by Ukrainian nationalist (of the more liberal, pro-EU bent) concerns.

Ah, I was not aware of these factors for this particular priest. Quite interesting. I might have take a look at his writings then. When I was speaking about ecclesiology, I was more referring to Metropolitan Elpidophoros Lambriniadis' "First without Equals" paper. What sort of things does Fr. Hovorun specifically say concerning ecclesiology, if you don't mind me asking?

On the other hand, fear of Russia usurping its position is at this point a major part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate's institutional identity. You can look at statements and historical documents going back at least a couple centuries where this fear is either the implicit or explicit motivation for the EP's ecclesio-political moves. During the Cold War, this led to it cooperate closely with the US government- Patriarch Athenegoras was an American citizen who, upon his election (during which US pressure led Turkey to allow a patriarch without Turkish nationality) was famously flown to Istanbul on President Truman's personal plane.

I was not aware of how far back this went. Very interesting.

In the run-up to Crete, the EP did a good job of courting both diaspora Ukrainians and English-speaking academics (there's a venn diagram there...) to support its cause. This involved making a lot of effort to portray itself as the more open, progressive and Western-minded Church, who could lead things against both the anti-ecumenists and the Russians, who often get conflated.

Yeah, I was quite surprised how unified many Orthodox academics were on Crete when it all went down, judging from their Twitter at least.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2017, 11:05:46 AM »
Russophobia pays- people build careers on it. It's also a highly effective way to avoid responsibility for mistakes and to silence critics. It is of course aided by the fact that Russia- like any great power- does try to influence things to its advantage. So the professional Russophobes seize on small things and string them together to suggest a far vaster conspiracy. You'd almost think Putin is some omnipotent master villain- this illusion is quickly shattered on seeing what a rotten, inefficient, corrupt craphole his country is.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2017, 11:09:05 AM »
What sort of things does Fr. Hovorun specifically say concerning ecclesiology, if you don't mind me asking?

I'd suggest looking at his page on academia.edu... A lot of it involves applying post-metaphysical and postmodern theories to deconstruct the concepts of hierarchy and church. Here's an interview with him about it here: http://easternchristianbooks.blogspot.be/2017/07/cyril-hovorun-on-churchs-scaffolds.html

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2017, 01:07:27 PM »
I'm assuming you're just yearning to start another of your epic tirades.

You assume wrong.  I'm perfectly content to leave the epic tirades in this thread to you, Porter.  I have neither the time nor the inclination this weekend.  I was just taken aback by a couple of your statements here, that's all.

But in case you're somehow truly confused, I'll answer. My interrogation of Samn was how he (Oriental Orthodox or not) damns loyalty to Constantinople as uselessly anti-modern if he wouldn't damn loyalty to Alexandria (or Antioch or Jerusalem or Rome) in the same terms.

It'd be a little easier for me to believe that if it weren't for your "What does this have to do with you?" attempt at dismissing his opinion based on his (perceived) jurisdiction prior to any attempts to address his actual arguments on their own merits.  Should an actual Oriental Orthodox Christian conversant in the subject matter keep his nose out in your view?

As far as damning loyalty to Constantinople as one of the five ancient sees, I don't think anyone is doing that, but rather they are questioning the idea of fidelity to the long-dead Byzantine Empire and an ecclesiological model rooted in its existence as an actual living state.  As I said, I'm not entirely in sympathy with their point of view - I see some merit in it and in yours (or, more accurately, the EP's) - and I don't think of modern Russia as a particularly holy state - but I don't think the way to address Samn's or anyone's arguments lies in disqualifying him from the discussion based on his (perceived) status as an Oriental Orthodox Christian.  At least, not if you actually think we're Orthodox and have a stake in how things play out in the Orthodox world.

My meaning by "faithful Greek," in my address of Antonis, was "spiritually-faithful," "jurisdictionally-faithful" -- the full term being "faithful Greek Christian." I don't see either of these descriptions as personal attacks, and, for that matter, I doubt Iconodule sincerely worries that they are either, but you are welcome to your opinion.

I just thought it was weird that you conflated his ethnicity with his faith and loyalty to a particular see.  I thought Orthodox Christianity transcended all of that.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2017, 01:07:53 PM »
Knowing Fr. Cyril personally, I can say that he never "practiced Russophobia" to further his career. On the contrary, he is a humble and modest man, doing his best to serve Christ and his Church. And not thinking about career issues. Whatever positions he takes are based on conviction, both intellectually and through personal experience. In fact, he knows many of the people concerned on all sides quite well.

So agree with him or don't, but I find it inacceptable to question his personal integrity.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2017, 01:47:40 PM »
Knowing Fr. Cyril personally, I can say that he never "practiced Russophobia" to further his career. On the contrary, he is a humble and modest man, doing his best to serve Christ and his Church. And not thinking about career issues. Whatever positions he takes are based on conviction, both intellectually and through personal experience. In fact, he knows many of the people concerned on all sides quite well.

So agree with him or don't, but I find it inacceptable to question his personal integrity.

Thank you!
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2017, 01:49:50 PM »
Russophobia pays- people build careers on it. It's also a highly effective way to avoid responsibility for mistakes and to silence critics. It is of course aided by the fact that Russia- like any great power- does try to influence things to its advantage. So the professional Russophobes seize on small things and string them together to suggest a far vaster conspiracy. You'd almost think Putin is some omnipotent master villain- this illusion is quickly shattered on seeing what a rotten, inefficient, corrupt craphole his country is.

He is a master villain. How are you the one non-Russian who doesn't know this?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2017, 02:20:29 PM »
Knowing Fr. Cyril personally, I can say that he never "practiced Russophobia" to further his career. On the contrary, he is a humble and modest man, doing his best to serve Christ and his Church. And not thinking about career issues. Whatever positions he takes are based on conviction, both intellectually and through personal experience. In fact, he knows many of the people concerned on all sides quite well.

So agree with him or don't, but I find it inacceptable to question his personal integrity.

He may very well be sincere but he is saying what pro-Western zealots yearn to hear. I've interacted with  one of the Wheel's chief editors and she is quick to accuse anyone who questions the Putin-runs-the-world narrative of being an FSB dupe
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2017, 02:27:14 PM »
Russophobia pays- people build careers on it. It's also a highly effective way to avoid responsibility for mistakes and to silence critics. It is of course aided by the fact that Russia- like any great power- does try to influence things to its advantage. So the professional Russophobes seize on small things and string them together to suggest a far vaster conspiracy. You'd almost think Putin is some omnipotent master villain- this illusion is quickly shattered on seeing what a rotten, inefficient, corrupt craphole his country is.

He is a master villain. How are you the one non-Russian who doesn't know this?

Do the voices speak to you in Russian? That explains a lot.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2017, 02:48:04 PM »
He may very well be sincere but he is saying what pro-Western zealots yearn to hear. I've interacted with  one of the Wheel's chief editors and she is quick to accuse anyone who questions the Putin-runs-the-world narrative of being an FSB dupe
I do not know this editor, and I think Putin should better be discussed in the Politics forum.

As for motives of leading hierarchs in the MP and in Antioch, all I can say is that Fr. Cyril knows them personally, especially the ones in the MP he knows quite well. So I do trust his judgement concerning their motives. He also has been to Qatar to see himself what is going on there.

May I ask what lead you to take a more pro-MP position? It's rather surprising, considering that your profile mentions a jurisdiction that is part of the EP.

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2017, 02:52:56 PM »
He may very well be sincere but he is saying what pro-Western zealots yearn to hear. I've interacted with  one of the Wheel's chief editors and she is quick to accuse anyone who questions the Putin-runs-the-world narrative of being an FSB dupe
I do not know this editor, and I think Putin should better be discussed in the Politics forum.

As for motives of leading hierarchs in the MP and in Antioch, all I can say is that Fr. Cyril knows them personally, especially the ones in the MP he knows quite well. So I do trust his judgement concerning their motives. He also has been to Qatar to see himself what is going on there.

May I ask what lead you to take a more pro-MP position? It's rather surprising, considering that your profile mentions a jurisdiction that is part of the EP.

I'm not pro-MP. And the MP's motives aside, Antioch's motives are the ones he is misrepresenting.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 02:54:09 PM by Iconodule »
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2017, 02:55:10 PM »
It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.

The JP actually has a lot of Israeli faithful, too. Usually people from the former USSR, who had a Jewish ancestor or spouse. It would not be realistic to place them under an Arab patriarch.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2017, 03:07:04 PM »
It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.

The JP actually has a lot of Israeli faithful, too. Usually people from the former USSR, who had a Jewish ancestor or spouse. It would not be realistic to place them under an Arab patriarch.

Wow, that's a new one. So to placate the minuscule percentage of Israeli faithful, and despite the continued alienation of the vast Arab majority, the church should be perpetually run by Greeks. I've heard some absurd arguments justifying JP racism but I evidently haven't heard them all.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2017, 03:08:13 PM »
I'm not pro-MP. And the MP's motives aside, Antioch's motives are the ones he is misrepresenting.

He has his reasons to present them in this way. One may disagree, of course, but it seems naive to me to give blind trust to Antioch's officially stated reason. And whereas Antioch really would like to get Qatar

1) The fuzz they're make out of this is obviously disproportionate and make it at least a reasonable possibility to presume that there's more to it.

2) The EP doesn't decide alone who gets Qatar. The government of Qatar also has a say in this. Remember it's an absolute monarchy, and wheras, by Muslim standards, they are rather tolerant of non-Muslim religious communities, there is no freedom of religion in the American sense there.

There is a civil war in Syria. The AP supports the Syrian government under President Assad. Qatar finances some of those who war war against Assad. Obviously they won't let anyone in who could even be suspected of having any ties to the Assad government. Which would include anyone picked by the AP.

Orthodox Christians can be glad that the Emir (monarch) of Qatar has allowed the JP to establish a parish there, which enables them to have liturgies, receive the holy mysteries etc. The AP would not be allowed to do so.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2017, 03:19:23 PM »
So to placate the minuscule percentage of Israeli faithful, and despite the continued alienation of the vast Arab majority

What the heck makes you think this is "minuscule percentage"? The number of non-Jews from the former USSR in Israel is about 400 000. Religious affiliation of those is not counted in statistics, but if we modestly presume that only half of those are Orthodox, there would be 200 000 people.

The number of Christians in Jordan is about 250 000, in the Palestinian territories is about 50 000, and about 150 000 Arab Christians in Israel. Which makes 450 000. In Jordan, we know that a bit more than half of these are under the JP, the rest mostly under Rome or Protestants, with a few Copts and Armenians. If we generously assume that of these 450 000, two thirds are Orthodox, there would be 300 000.

Minuscule percentage anyone?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2017, 05:15:45 PM »
So to placate the minuscule percentage of Israeli faithful, and despite the continued alienation of the vast Arab majority

What the heck makes you think this is "minuscule percentage"? The number of non-Jews from the former USSR in Israel is about 400 000. Religious affiliation of those is not counted in statistics, but if we modestly presume that only half of those are Orthodox, there would be 200 000 people.

The number of Christians in Jordan is about 250 000, in the Palestinian territories is about 50 000, and about 150 000 Arab Christians in Israel. Which makes 450 000. In Jordan, we know that a bit more than half of these are under the JP, the rest mostly under Rome or Protestants, with a few Copts and Armenians. If we generously assume that of these 450 000, two thirds are Orthodox, there would be 300 000.

Minuscule percentage anyone?

So the JP is to remain under Greek control because of a baseless statistical speculation.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2017, 05:40:25 PM »

As for motives of leading hierarchs in the MP and in Antioch, all I can say is that Fr. Cyril knows them personally, especially the ones in the MP he knows quite well. So I do trust his judgement concerning their motives. He also has been to Qatar to see himself what is going on there.


I also know many of the people involved in this and have firsthand knowledge of the Holy Synod of Antioch's decision-making process regarding Crete. If Fr Hovorun does as well, then he is knowingly misrepresenting the truth. He is extremely nationalistic about Ukraine, and so he's not exactly impartial.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 05:40:43 PM by Samn! »

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2017, 05:55:17 PM »
I also know many of the people involved in this and have firsthand knowledge of the Holy Synod of Antioch's decision-making process regarding Crete.
Sure, I suppose you have been to Balamand recently?

If Fr Hovorun does as well, then he is knowingly misrepresenting the truth.
I don't feel he is, but I admit to not being able to verify this for myself. I can only say that I know him as an honest and selfless man.

 
He is extremely nationalistic about Ukraine, and so he's not exactly impartial.
Nobody is completely impartial, but this very statement shows either that
1) Antioch does have a pro-Russian bias by now, which wouldn't surprise me
and/or
2) You have never met a real Ukrainian nationalist.
Fr. Cyril surely does not hold any extreme views there. But if you want to discuss various branches of Ukrainian patriotism and nationalism, let's do that on the Politics forum.

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2017, 05:57:37 PM »


What the heck makes you think this is "minuscule percentage"? The number of non-Jews from the former USSR in Israel is about 400 000. Religious affiliation of those is not counted in statistics, but if we modestly presume that only half of those are Orthodox, there would be 200 000 people.


This is a massive over-estimation of this group, since you're assuming that anyone who's not Jewish is baptized, which is far from the case. The JP has exactly one small Hebrew-speaking parish and leaves serving the Russian-speaking faithful to the MP and ROCOR representations and monasteries. Which is to say, the Greeks there don't serve the recent immigrant faithful any better than they do the Arabs... And I'm not sure why a patriarch who was actually from there would be bad for the Russians-- the Greek clergy have just as much antipathy to Russians as they do to Arabs, while in my experience most of the Arabs tend to like Russians, even Israeli once once they learn that they're Christian.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2017, 06:06:07 PM »
Knowing Fr. Cyril personally, I can say that he never "practiced Russophobia" to further his career.
Who said he did?
So agree with him or don't, but I find it inacceptable to question his personal integrity.
Who did?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2017, 06:09:42 PM »
He may very well be sincere but he is saying what pro-Western zealots yearn to hear. I've interacted with  one of the Wheel's chief editors and she is quick to accuse anyone who questions the Putin-runs-the-world narrative of being an FSB dupe
I do not know this editor, and I think Putin should better be discussed in the Politics forum.

As for motives of leading hierarchs in the MP and in Antioch, all I can say is that Fr. Cyril knows them personally, especially the ones in the MP he knows quite well. So I do trust his judgement concerning their motives.

and you sharing an ax with him to grind has nothing to do with that... ::)
He also has been to Qatar to see himself what is going on there.
Has he been to Jerusalem to see what is going on there?
May I ask what lead you to take a more pro-MP position? It's rather surprising, considering that your profile mentions a jurisdiction that is part of the EP.
Uh, isn't Ar. Hovorun's jurisdiction part of the MP?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2017, 06:12:52 PM »
It is likewise Phanariot phyletism that shuts out the Arab faithful from the Greek-dominated upper echelons of the JP, and Phanariot phyletism that the Church of Antioch itself not too long ago had to struggle free from.

The JP actually has a lot of Israeli faithful, too. Usually people from the former USSR, who had a Jewish ancestor or spouse. It would not be realistic to place them under an Arab patriarch.
Why not?
The Ottomans placed the native Arab faithful under a Phanariot Greek one.

I also don't think Qatar has any Hebrew faithful. Or Palestinian Greek ones for that matter.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2017, 06:13:37 PM »
This is a massive over-estimation of this group, since you're assuming that anyone who's not Jewish is baptized, which is far from the case.
I said, I estimated about half. And that makes sense, since even in the USSR, about half of all children were baptised (30-40% in Russia, over 80% in Ukraine). And even if only 10% of them were baptised, they would still be about 1 in 8 of all Orthodox Christians in the territory of the JP.

The JP has exactly one small Hebrew-speaking parish
I heard there are at least two by now, Jerusalem and Haifa. But whether they are served in Russian oder Hebrew doesn't make a difference here.

and leaves serving the Russian-speaking faithful to the MP and ROCOR representations and monasteries. Which is to say, the Greeks there don't serve the recent immigrant faithful any better than they do the Arabs...
What you call representations still commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem. The JP is structurally chaotic anyway. Do they have a diocesan structure? Doesn't seem so...

And I'm not sure why a patriarch who was actually from there would be bad for the Russians-- the Greek clergy have just as much antipathy to Russians as they do to Arabs, while in my experience most of the Arabs tend to like Russians, even Israeli once once they learn that they're Christian.
Because Israeli Russians, including Christians, support the Israeli political right wing. Anyway, the whole situation down there is messed up, I wouldn't change a running system. But if there should be an Arab Patriarch, then a Jordanian one (rather than Palestinian), and the King of Jordan should demand this. That would be the least controversial solution for a "problem" only Arab nationalists see anyway... let's be honest, most of the faithful don't care whether their Patriarch is Greek or Arab.

Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2017, 06:19:52 PM »

Sure, I suppose you have been to Balamand recently?


Unfortunately, I haven't been in Lebanon in a few years. During the Crete affair, however, I was in frequent contact with the lay advisors who took part in the Qatar negotiations and were meant to be part of the delegation to Crete (and I was also in less amiable contact with a couple of the EP's lay advisors on Crete). Since then, I have to email with one of the members of the Holy Synod of Antioch who was a party to the prepreparative meetings about a couple unrelated projects that wind up touching on these issues nevertheless. From time to time I do translation work for them pro bono, so I know their thought process about this stuff pretty well. Which is to say, well enough to know that they were not influenced by Russia one way or another, as Fr Hovorun falsely claims.

But even an honest outside observer would also come to that conclusion after watching how quick Antioch was to withdraw from the Episcopal Assemblies ca. 2014. At the consecration of the Antiochian metropolitan of France that year, I saw Patriarch John X receive a fairly sharp dressing-down from the EP metropolitan of France, Emmanuel. His Beatitude's silent reaction during all of that made it clear that he's perfectly happy to stand firm in a decision like this even if it's (as it was at the time) Antioch going alone.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2017, 06:20:34 PM »
Uh, isn't Ar. Hovorun's jurisdiction part of the MP?
He did serve in the UOC-MP, from which he received a canonical leave of absence to concentrate on his theological research. Whatever he says or writes now is not in the name of the MP, or UOC-MP, but his personal opinion as a scholar.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2017, 06:22:10 PM »
I'm not pro-MP. And the MP's motives aside, Antioch's motives are the ones he is misrepresenting.

He has his reasons to present them in this way. One may disagree, of course, but it seems naive to me to give blind trust to Antioch's officially stated reason. And whereas Antioch really would like to get Qatar

1) The fuzz they're make out of this is obviously disproportionate and make it at least a reasonable possibility to presume that there's more to it.

2) The EP doesn't decide alone who gets Qatar. The government of Qatar also has a say in this. Remember it's an absolute monarchy, and wheras, by Muslim standards, they are rather tolerant of non-Muslim religious communities, there is no freedom of religion in the American sense there.

There is a civil war in Syria. The AP supports the Syrian government under President Assad. Qatar finances some of those who war war against Assad. Obviously they won't let anyone in who could even be suspected of having any ties to the Assad government. Which would include anyone picked by the AP.

Orthodox Christians can be glad that the Emir (monarch) of Qatar has allowed the JP to establish a parish there, which enables them to have liturgies, receive the holy mysteries etc. The AP would not be allowed to do so.
I know they won't be coming to Qatar on this passport

All during the Syria-Iraq split Antioch continued its Metropolitanate of Baghdad, and the Phanariots uncanonical grab predates the Syrian Civil War.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2017, 06:24:29 PM »
So to placate the minuscule percentage of Israeli faithful, and despite the continued alienation of the vast Arab majority

What the heck makes you think this is "minuscule percentage"? The number of non-Jews from the former USSR in Israel is about 400 000. Religious affiliation of those is not counted in statistics, but if we modestly presume that only half of those are Orthodox, there would be 200 000 people.

The number of Christians in Jordan is about 250 000, in the Palestinian territories is about 50 000, and about 150 000 Arab Christians in Israel. Which makes 450 000. In Jordan, we know that a bit more than half of these are under the JP, the rest mostly under Rome or Protestants, with a few Copts and Armenians. If we generously assume that of these 450 000, two thirds are Orthodox, there would be 300 000.

Minuscule percentage anyone?

So the JP is to remain under Greek control because of a baseless statistical speculation.
not to mention a very recent one.  And the statistics on the Greek population, let alone the native Greek population (i.e. 0).
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2017, 06:29:31 PM »
All during the Syria-Iraq split Antioch continued its Metropolitanate of Baghdad

You're aware that continuing something and establishing something new are quite different things?

AFAIK Archbishop Makarios has a Greek passport. Definitely makes more sense in Qatar than a Syrian one.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2017, 06:31:29 PM »
What you call representations still commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem. The JP is structurally chaotic anyway. Do they have a diocesan structure? Doesn't seem so...
The ethnic club of tomb-worshippers sees to that.

I wouldn't change a running system.

How about a stumbling one?
But if there should be an Arab Patriarch, then a Jordanian one (rather than Palestinian), and the King of Jordan should demand this. That would be the least controversial solution for a "problem" only Arab nationalists see anyway... let's be honest, most of the faithful don't care whether their Patriarch is Greek or Arab.
The Phanariot clergy cartel cares a great deal, and makes the faithful care as well.

Remember, the Patriarch of Jerusalem was condemned as a "Moscovite" by the Greeks and welcomed home by the Arabs for leaving the Pot Calling Kettle Council of Constantinople that Ar. Hovorun adores.
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2017, 06:33:14 PM »
All I can say is that since His All Holiness evokes such mindless rage of all flavors, here and on some other sites, he and his faithful must be doing something pleasing to God. I'm very glad to belong to my jurisdiction, while I am also glad for all other canonical Orthodox jurisdictions. May all be blessed.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2017, 06:36:32 PM »
All during the Syria-Iraq split Antioch continued its Metropolitanate of Baghdad

You're aware that continuing something and establishing something new are quite different things?

AFAIK Archbishop Makarios has a Greek passport. Definitely makes more sense in Qatar than a Syrian one.

The issue over Qatar is separate from the question of the best way to pastorally serve that parish. There had been a working agreement in place between Antioch and Jerusalem about it which seemed to be going fine. Jerusalem then unilaterally (and without warning) broke by consecrating an "archbishop of Qatar", an act that was unambiguously aggressive towards Antioch, since a single parish doesn't need an archbishop and Jerusalem doesn't even have dioceses. So it was a symbolic act meant to send a message. But the break in communion didn't happen until Jerusalem also announced a claim to the Archdiocese of Hawran and also reneged on an agreement reached in Athens to return the situation back to the status quo ante.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 06:39:55 PM by Samn! »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2017, 06:36:52 PM »
All during the Syria-Iraq split Antioch continued its Metropolitanate of Baghdad

You're aware that continuing something and establishing something new are quite different things?
Yes, but since the JP did neither in Qatar, I'm aware of no relevance.
AFAIK Archbishop Makarios
Who?
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2017, 06:39:08 PM »
All I can say is that since His Holiness evokes such mindless rage of all flavors, here and on some other sites, he and his faithful must be doing something pleasing to God.
His Holiness is.
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2017, 07:46:07 PM »
Uh, isn't Ar. Hovorun's jurisdiction part of the MP?
He did serve in the UOC-MP, from which he received a canonical leave of absence to concentrate on his theological research. Whatever he says or writes now is not in the name of the MP, or UOC-MP, but his personal opinion as a scholar.
I don't recall Iconodule claiming to speak for the EP.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2017, 08:53:44 PM »
All during the Syria-Iraq split Antioch continued its Metropolitanate of Baghdad

You're aware that continuing something and establishing something new are quite different things?

AFAIK Archbishop Makarios has a Greek passport. Definitely makes more sense in Qatar than a Syrian one.

The issue over Qatar is separate from the question of the best way to pastorally serve that parish. There had been a working agreement in place between Antioch and Jerusalem about it which seemed to be going fine. Jerusalem then unilaterally (and without warning) broke by consecrating an "archbishop of Qatar", an act that was unambiguously aggressive towards Antioch, since a single parish doesn't need an archbishop and Jerusalem doesn't even have dioceses. So it was a symbolic act meant to send a message. But the break in communion didn't happen until Jerusalem also announced a claim to the Archdiocese of Hawran and also reneged on an agreement reached in Athens to return the situation back to the status quo ante.
Just to add to your excellent post:
Quote
Why Qatar Matters...

....In the eyes of some people, an American Church can never 'come of age'
You may think this is a bit of a stretch, but one must only consider the Church of Jerusalem to understand how the diaspora will be treated by hierarchs who share the attitudes of Constantinople and Jerusalem. Here's a test: I will give you a list of surnames of bishops, and you tell me which Autocephalous Church were talking about-....From all of those names, you might have guessed that we are talking about the Church of Greece, or perhaps the Church of Constantinople. But, no, we are talking about the Church of Jerusalem, which serves over 500,000 Palestinian Christians and is one of Christendom's oldest communities.
Yet, all but two of these bishops had to be 'imported' from somewhere else....Are you telling me that, after 2,000 years, the Palestinian Christian population is not 'mature enough' to produce its own episcopal candidates?
The faithful peoples in the diaspora need to take a long look at Jerusalem and ask why local Christians are not fit to preside over their own communities. You must also remember that those who perpetuate this ethno-phyletism (which is the new trendy phrase in the Orthodox world) have their sights on presiding over all of our communities in the United States and Canada...

...Constantinople stubbornly refused to respond to the other Autocephalous Churches' concerns, just like a leper that has lost feeling in his body. Why not first deal with the obvious suffering in the Church, and then deal with the details?
Only Constantinople can explain why Antioch's concerns are not important.
What is does tell us, however, is that our local concerns in America will likely be even less important than those of an ancient Church. If Constantinople intends to rule here 'without equal,' you can expect more of the same.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1123307181064854/permalink/1127885713940334/
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #89 on: September 16, 2017, 09:01:05 PM »
Hmmm. That sounds vaguely familiar ^
Quote
Our fellow Bishop Reginus, most beloved by God, and with him the most God-beloved Bishops of the province of the Cypriotes Zeno and Evagrius, has announced an innovation, a thing which is contrary to the ecclesiastical laws and the Canons of the Holy Apostles, and one which touches the freedom of all. Hence, since common ailments require more drastic treatment, on the ground that they do greater damage...The same rule shall hold good also with regard to the other diocese and churches everywhere, so that none of the Bishops most beloved by God shall take hold of any other province that was not formerly and from the beginning in his jurisdiction, or was not, that is to say, held by his predecessors. But if anyone has taken possession of any and has forcibly subjected it to his authority, he shall regive it back to its rightful possessor, in order that the Canons of the Fathers be not transgressed, nor the secular fastus be introduced, under the pretext of divine services; lest imperceptibly and little by little we lose the freedom which our Lord Jesus Christ, the Liberator of all men, has given us as a free gift by His own blood. It has therefore seemed best to the holy and Ecumenical Council that the rights of every province, formerly and from the beginning belonging to it, be preserved clear and inviolable, in accordance with the custom which prevailed of yore; each Metropolitan having permission to take copies of the proceedings for his own security. If, on the other hand, anyone introduce any form conflicting with the decrees which have now been sanctioned, it has seemed best to the entire holy and Ecumenical Council that it be invalid and of no effect.
Sacred Canon VIII of the Holy Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council.
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2017, 09:05:04 PM »
All I can say is that since His All Holiness evokes such mindless rage of all flavors, here and on some other sites, he and his faithful must be doing something pleasing to God. I'm very glad to belong to my jurisdiction, while I am also glad for all other canonical Orthodox jurisdictions. May all be blessed.

Rather, your mindless lashing out at even the mildest critique of your chosen spiritual tribe is indicative of a cult mentality. For that, the EP cannot be blamed. Perhaps it's an Amish thing? Seek help.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2017, 03:50:27 AM »
AFAIK Archbishop Makarios
Who?

I am sure you are aware that the JP has ordained their man in Qatar archbishop in 2013? Used to be archimandrite. A symbolical way of asserting their claim. Wasn't necessary in my opinion ...

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2017, 03:58:20 AM »
The issue over Qatar is separate from the question of the best way to pastorally serve that parish. There had been a working agreement in place between Antioch and Jerusalem about it which seemed to be going fine. Jerusalem then unilaterally (and without warning) broke by consecrating an "archbishop of Qatar", an act that was unambiguously aggressive towards Antioch, since a single parish doesn't need an archbishop and Jerusalem doesn't even have dioceses. So it was a symbolic act meant to send a message. But the break in communion didn't happen until Jerusalem also announced a claim to the Archdiocese of Hawran and also reneged on an agreement reached in Athens to return the situation back to the status quo ante.

I do not feel qualified to discussing your claims here, so I won't. But if you look for Hewran on a maps and who has troops there, one thing immediately becomes clear: The JP is with the Emir of Qatar and the U, S and A. And the AP is with President Bashar and with Russia. It's basically a political issue.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2017, 03:59:47 AM »
Rather, your mindless lashing out at even the mildest critique of your chosen spiritual tribe is indicative of a cult mentality. For that, the EP cannot be blamed. Perhaps it's an Amish thing? Seek help.

Surely sounds racist?
There is nothing wrong with loyalty to the EP. And that has nothing to do with "cult mentality". Personally, I have met him and I am convinced of his sincerity and humility.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2017, 04:33:06 AM »
AFAIK Archbishop Makarios
Who?

I am sure you are aware that the JP has ordained their man in Qatar archbishop in 2013? Used to be archimandrite. A symbolical way of asserting their claim. Wasn't necessary in my opinion ...
in the opinion of the Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council, "anyone introducing any form conflicting with the decrees which have now been sanctioned, it has seemed best to the entire holy and Ecumenical Council that it be invalid and of no effect."
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2017, 04:37:14 AM »
Rather, your mindless lashing out at even the mildest critique of your chosen spiritual tribe is indicative of a cult mentality. For that, the EP cannot be blamed. Perhaps it's an Amish thing? Seek help.

Surely sounds racist?
There is nothing wrong with loyalty to the EP. And that has nothing to do with "cult mentality". Personally, I have met him and I am convinced of his sincerity and humility.
HAH usually lets his mouthpiece from Bursa (nominally, of course) handle his arrogance.

Plenty wrong with loyalty to the Millet ethnarch, and it has plenty to do with the cult mentality of ethnophyletism.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 04:37:33 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2017, 05:29:05 AM »
The second paragraph:
Quote
The Council of Constantinople gathered specifically to cope with the issue of nationalism, at the time of the Bulgarian “national awakening.” The Council of Crete, in contrast, met without a particular issue to solve. Its purpose was to meet for the sake of meeting and demonstrating the ability of the Orthodox Churches to come together. Without such a council, the idea of “conciliarity” as the core of modern Orthodox identity would not stand. Crete dealt with the issue of nationalism on the margins.

This exposes, inadvertently, a key problem of the Crete council- it "met without a particular issue to solve", despite the fact that there are many particular issues that urgently need solving. "Its purpose was to meet for the sake of meeting and demonstrating the ability of the Orthodox Churches to come together"- in other words, sweep substantial problems under the rug, or kick them down the road, and just come together to demonstrate an artificial unity. Fr. Cyril says it himself and yet he does not see the problem of "meet[ing] for the sake of meeting."

And he confuses Orthodox conciliarity with conciliarism, the idea that Church-wide councils are the highest authority of the church and therefore indispensably must be convened for the church to function, an idea I call Hive-Papacy that is just as alien to Orthodoxy as papal supremacy.

I found that quote hilarious, actually.  Fr. Cyril inadvertantly confessed, through this contrived ex post facto explanation, the absolute failure of the Council of Crete to accomplish anything, despite more than 40 years of preparation. 

I attribute this failure in part to the insistence of the EP on proceeding with four churches absent, and his blaming everything on the MP and Russian dominance of these churches as laughable.  The Church of Georgia has a huge axe to grind against Russia due to the war of 2008, the occupation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and the creation of uncanonical jurisdictions in these regions which otherwise would be part or Georgian jurisdiction, the historic abuse and suppression of the Georgian church and its traditions, including the destruction of its holy icons by whitewashing its cathedrals and the imposition of Russian bishops, by the Czarist Holy Synod and the Putin government.   Yes, occasionally Patriarch Ilia concelebrates a liturgy in Russia, being a forgiving man, but the overall sentiment of his church would preclude him from doing things purely at Russia's bidding even if lured by hypothetical promises of concessions regarding the outstanding baggage.

The article seems to imply geopolitical reasons for the absence of the four churches and the near-absence of Serbia.  But Serbia is much closer to Russia than Bulgaria, a full member of the EU and NATO (IIRC, at the very least a NATO ally; Serbia regards both institutions with resentment although economic isolation is leading it to pursue EU membership, or at least, move in the direction to where it could apply if it wanted to.  Georgia is a NATO ally and has been since 2008; much of the reason for the frequent presence of the US Navy in the Black Sea involves the safety of Georgia and also ostensibly and historically, of Turkey, an actual NATO member (a membership likely to be retained despite Erdogan's abuses in order to keep the Straits of Marmara open).   So of the four, that leaves only Antioch, which supports the Assad regime for fear of further genocide should Assad be replaced by a Sunni-dominated democracy, and has to some extent benefitted from Russian involvement in Syria.

However, as you point out, the rift between Antioch and the EP is well established: the JP opened up a diocese in Qatar years ago, before I think the conflict in Syria had even erupted, wasn't it, what, 2007-2008?  And Antioch if memory serves (there have been so many preconciliar meetings) warned at a few of them that it would abstain if the EP did not assist it under Article 28 of Chalcedon, and then began boycotting the final preparatory meetings.

Let's look at what all the Council of Crete at one time or another was supposed to address and failed to do:

- Address the problem of overlapping jurisdictions in the diaspora with a definitive solution backed by all churches,
- Address the issue of ecumenism, one way or the orher, by fully clarifying in a way agreeable to all the churches how the process of reconciliation with other Christians should be addressed.
- Address the issue of the relationship and possible restoration of communion between the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox (this objective appeared on the first draft agendas of the 1970s, but has been gone for a while, probably because the supporters of reconciliation realized they could not obtain unanimous consent, and the current step-by-step approach of slowly increasing limited intercommunion between neighboring Eastern and Oriental churches seems to be producing results without producing a schism.
- Likewise, early drafts promised to address the specifics of reconciliation with Roman Catholicism and form a position on the Eastern Catholic churches, if memory serves.
- The method of receiving converts was also supposed to be addressed and made uniform.
- Various other issues of importance were clearly "on the menu."

In fact, even with the vastly scaled back and vague agenda items, which included questions of how to provide a "common witness" and evangelize in the diaspora, there was an expectation that the council would do something meaningful.  Remember the brouhaha that erupted when several priests and lay scholars who supported the council started blogging and preaching, following the statement of an EP Metropolitan, on how the decisions of the council would be immediately authoritative and "binding", even on churches that did not attend, and the large number of blogs and bloggers who raced to post articles on how such a statement violated Orthodoc conciliar ecclesiology?  Recall how likewise those opposed to the council and various traditionalists made so many posts expressing dread about what it might do, imagining it taking on a life of its own and turning into an unstoppable Vatican II which would overturn the decisions of prior councils and irrevocably destroy the ancient Orthodox liturgical, devotional and canonical praxis, which would henceforth be confined to the Old Calendarist jurisdictions?

Well, none of that happened.   The council basically consisted of some beautiful concelebrated liturgies, a few generic and broadly uncontroversial declarations being issued, and then following a civlized closing liturgy, the swift flight of the autocephalous archbishops as if from an invading army of Saracens or the impending plague of the zombie apocalypse.

Was the council worth the millions of dollars spent on it over four decades?  Maybe, the concelebrated liturgies with all the Patriarchs who did attend were awfully pretty, but, probably not.  Fr. Cyril's contention that all of this was needed just to show that the church could meet for the sake of meeting is ludicrous; if the desire was to show that, then the mumerous preconciliar summits had the same effect.  Indeed, if that were actually a key reason for having the council, one would expect it to appear early on in the innumerable draft versions of the conciliar agenda, but it did not.

Likewise, the rest of his article, the claim that the council somehow vanquished phyletism, is equally laughable for the reasons pointed out by Iconodule.  His article read like Russophobic propaganda, presented before a Russophobic audience.  Russophobia, it seems, has become a newly acceptable form of bigotry these days, without the fig leaf of the Soviet Union and Communism to legitimize it.

The article read like it was pandering to a Russophobic, Europhile audience, and came across as an attempt to retcon the council as a carefully planned victory against those evil, scheming diabolical Russkies and their Slavic, Caucasian and Syrian patsies.  It was remarkably lacking in self-insight and reeked of the very phyletisim it pretended to condemn. 

And what is more, its central thesis can be rejected outright by virtue of the fact that aside from Antioch, which warned more than a year in advance they would boycott unless the EP either did something about the Jerusalem problem in Qatar, or (IIRC) allowed the issue of Jerusalem's intrusion into Antiochene territory to be put in the council's agenda, all of the other cancellations occurred in the period immediately leading up to the council.  And for a brief period, it looked like Russia would attend, but that Serbia and the Church of Greece would not, IIRC; I remember an article about the Romanian Patriarch calling up the archbishops who planned to boycott, both those who had publically announced they might not attend, and those privately considering it, begging them to attend.  And Moscow equivocated quite a bit; a few weeks before the council the only sure absentee was Antioch, with Georgia being probably absent.

And what does he propose to do in light of the hypothetical defeat of phyletism? 

Does he propose the churches that attend excommunicate or depose the Patriarchs that did not attend? 

That the MP's autocephaly be revoked by the EP, or that the EP grant autocephaly to the UOC-KP in order to punish Moscow?  This of course the EP claims to be able to do, although no canonical precedents exist for it (the dissolution of autocephalous churches having only ever occurred following military conquest).

  The former options are theoretically possible, although a schism results rather than an actual deposition unless you can get the laity or the government of a church to depose the Patriarch (perhaps this would be possible in the case of Georgia, considering the bitter anti-Russian sentiment of the people following the war of 2008, the destruction of the entire Georgian Navy by Russian missile cruisers, and the occupation of South Ossetia in addition to the previously occupied Abkhazia, plus further continued territorial incursions, including, according to many sources, border fences in rural areas that move a few inches into Georgian territory every night, except, oh snap, surveys show the Georgian Orthodox Church to be the most respected institution in the country, so making a case for some conspiracy with the Russians on the part of the venerable Catholicos Ilia seems a losing proposition).
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2017, 05:52:23 AM »
All I can say is that since His All Holiness evokes such mindless rage of all flavors, here and on some other sites, he and his faithful must be doing something pleasing to God. I'm very glad to belong to my jurisdiction, while I am also glad for all other canonical Orthodox jurisdictions. May all be blessed.

I agree.  Likewise, since the Moscow Patriarchate evokes such mindless rage, and is the victim of such continual calumny, that it also must be doing something very pleasing to God, like, for example, exerting the political pressure the Catholics had 30-40 years ago, and failed to use, or used, but failed to maintain, to stamp out atheism and modernism, and to procure laws banning abortion and prohibiting the glorification of sexual perversion.

However, this is a logical fallacy, commonly evoked by Catholicism.  Being criticized and subject to abuse is a mark of the Church, but its not a surefire test of legitimacy; we also need to see martyrdom on a large scale, correct teaching, continuity with the ancient faith, and other things, which the EP does have, although not to the same extent as Antioch.

The EP is a very good church.  So is the MP.  Neither is the best EO jurisdiction; the persecuted portions of the MP that became associated with ROCOR and the Catacomb Church help to legitimize the MP now that they have reunited, but even during the Sergianist era the MP was particularly blessed as persecution continued, for example, under Kruschev. 

I think right now, in terms of a combination of evangelical outreach, severe persecution in their canonical territory, internal persecution within the Orthodox church, and so on, the Patriarchate of Antioch has moral leadership, followed by the Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa.   I would put Serbia in third place, and give an honorable mention to Moscow, Constantinople, Albania, and Jerusalem (this being based on martyrdom or ethnic cleansing being experienced by members of these churches, for example, the continual terroist threats against the Church of Sinai, an autonomous part of the Church of Jerusalem, and the recent closure of the sole parish of the Metropolis of Bursa, which happened almost certainly because of the Erdogan regime; their preference it seems is to bottle the Greeks up in the Phanar).

"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2017, 06:10:55 AM »
Rather, your mindless lashing out at even the mildest critique of your chosen spiritual tribe is indicative of a cult mentality. For that, the EP cannot be blamed. Perhaps it's an Amish thing? Seek help.

Surely sounds racist?
There is nothing wrong with loyalty to the EP. And that has nothing to do with "cult mentality". Personally, I have met him and I am convinced of his sincerity and humility.
HAH usually lets his mouthpiece from Bursa (nominally, of course) handle his arrogance.

Plenty wrong with loyalty to the Millet ethnarch, and it has plenty to do with the cult mentality of ethnophyletism.

Note that Bursa only recently became nominal; that parish appears to have been the victim of intimkdation by the local government, which caused the number of parishioners to drop, and I believe also planning permission and zoning laws and other harassment were used to procure the closure of the Bursa parish (which I think was the Church of St. Euphemius; it was important, at any rate).

Erdogan's regime uses the same tactics against the Alevi, Bektasi and Mevlevi Sufis, although the Alevis at least have strength by numbers, representing a larger share of the Turkish population according to some reports than the Copts in Egypt represent of the Egyptian populace.  So while the main Alevi house of worship in 'Stamboul holds on despite having been deemed an illegal structure by the local government, the parish in Bursa had been reduced to a tiny number of frightened, elderly families, who basically had no choice but to accede to the pressure for it to close.  I expect most of them have either left the country or moved to the relative safety of the Phanar.

Its also possible that His Eminence is still serving the liturgy for them, or via a priest, sub rosa, surreptitiously, in one of their private houses, and is only nominally nominal.

Bearing in mind I disagree with virtually everything His Eminence writes, and think it would be a disaster, an absolute disaster, likely to cause a schism, if he gets chosen to replace His All Holiness Bartholomew, who for his faults I believe is a loving, sincere and devout Patriarch, one of the very best Constantinople has had in recent years, one who also does care very much about certain environmental issues, not in the silly manner of Greenpeace, but more in the common sense approach of Prince Charles or Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's account of the process by which Patmos became forested, I do believe the Metropolitan's current status of titularity is not his fault but that of the evil and repressive Erdogan regime, and if the Metropolitan is secretly sending a priest and is secretly non-titular, in the manner of the Catholics in England from the Elizabethan Era until the 1800s, I would very much respect him for it.   

If on the other hand someone produced evidence suggesting His Eminence caused, allowed, comtributed, through neglect or intention, or otherwise was a factor in the closure of the Bursa parish, I would lose all respect for him as a bishop and rate him less favorably and consider him less of a worthy bishop, less "axios" than certain Roman Catholic bishops who I strongly admire, such as Cardinal Burke, Archbishop Cordileone, and the Bishops of Mostar, Madison and Marquette, among others (Catholic bishops who are diocesan ordinaries, whose dioceses start with "M", seem to be a cut above the rest for some reason).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2017, 06:11:55 AM »
AFAIK Archbishop Makarios
Who?

I am sure you are aware that the JP has ordained their man in Qatar archbishop in 2013? Used to be archimandrite. A symbolical way of asserting their claim. Wasn't necessary in my opinion ...
in the opinion of the Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council, "anyone introducing any form conflicting with the decrees which have now been sanctioned, it has seemed best to the entire holy and Ecumenical Council that it be invalid and of no effect."

Oh by the way, not wanting to take us off topic, but just as a footnote, that paragraph happens to be the raison d'etre for the EO-OO schism regarding Chalcedon.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 06:12:28 AM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2017, 06:56:54 AM »
(a German-Irish convert)

Make that an American convert please. German-American and Irish-American folklore has not much to do with the reality in Europe.
Oh? What reality is that?

Not American obviously. Nothing wrong with that of course but you can really tell if someone's American.

Actually, you can't: many Canadians speak with an accent almost identical to ours; most view the stereotypical oh-oo vowell shift ("I've got to go oot and aboot, eh") to be, in the words of one gay Canadian vlogger who is quite hilarious, JJ McCollough, to be a bit annoying and obnoxious, so the vowell shift, when it is there, is more subtle.   Not just among actors trying to suppress it, but ordinary Canadians; I have several friends who sound basically American with a few minor oddities, and met an elderly British Columbian couple who were railfans once, friends of an elderly friend of mine, Stan Hurst, who recentlt died (memory eternal) who spoke with an accent that sounded almost exactly like that of my grandfather and great uncle Wendell (memory eternal), from Illinois.

Then we have the case of Americans and British people with mid-Atlantic accents, such as myself (although mine is admittedly strange, with Victorian and 1920s affectations; I don't think most people in Britain have talked like that since around 1980, except perhaps Jacob-Rees Mogg, but we all know he's a time traveller sent from the 1920s to rescue the Conservative Party).  A better example would be Cary Grant or James Mason.

Then we have chaps like John Barrowman: British citizens, educated in the US, with an American accent, albeit an inclination to use that accent to pronounce words and phrases which are distinctly British.

Also, the American waiters and bartenders at the American Bar at the Savoy Hotel in London come across as being rather too American; I think at least some of them, maybe all of them, are aspiring British actors practicing American accents.  They look like Ivy League football players from the leather helmet era or WWII infantrymen, albeit wearing tuxedos; their appearance is suspiciously Anglo-Saxon, and they speak in the affected manner of actors playing parts in period films set in the early 20th century (the chap who played the villain in Titanic, or Leonardo di Caprio, for that matter).

Travelling in Southern Ireland, in Cork, I heard on the radio in a shop, a typical morning news and talk show, in which the broadcasters spoke an Irish accent that sounded unsettlingly close to the American or Canadian, closer than some extreme Canadian accents.

Then there are the Cajuns and Creoles of New Orleans, who are dying off and largely dispossed since Katrina, but some speak French as their first tongue, and with the Creoles especially, their culture is very distinct from the mainstream.  And we have tne Amish; Porter is an anomaly in that he speaks English apparently as his native language, and I am guessing he was not raised in an Old Order Amish community, but some of the Old Order Amish, the Pennsylvania "Dutch" (really Germans) speak Low German primarily and use English only for talking to the "Englischers."  And lets not even get into the beautiful differences between the Caucasian-Asian subculture, the Hispanic subculture and the African American subculture, each of which has its own outlook, distinctive accents and so on, or the differences in culture between, say, Boston and Texas.

Finally, we have, in addition to American immigrants, the case of Puerto Ricans, Virgin Islanders, Native Americans and American Samoans, and islanders from American Micronesia and Guam, who are all born Americans, natural born US citizens, elligible to run for President, even, who in many cases do not speak English (Puerto Rico), and who in many other cases are still from a vastly different culture.   
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2017, 07:12:32 AM »
^That would have been somewhat more relevant had anyone mentioned accents ;)

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2017, 07:22:26 AM »
Also nobody has a mid-Atlantic accent unless you're trying to affect one. It's the signature move of pretentious posers.
Quote
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2017, 07:46:30 AM »
I'd love to play, but I'm going to give you time to go back and read the thread.

I've read it.  And I'm not entirely unsympathetic to certain aspects of your argument taken on their own merits.  I'm just wondering what qualifies you to dismiss the opinion of (someone you wrongly assumed to be) an Oriental Orthodox Christian on the matter and what qualifies you (a German-Irish convert) to determine who is and isn't a "faithful Greek" (whatever you think that means).  Or maybe you're referring to your previously stated explanation that you're acting out because this is "one of those days"?  If that's the case, hey, go nuts!  Everyone's entitled to spazz out on oc.net once in awhile.

I'm assuming you're just yearning to start another of your epic tirades. But in case you're somehow truly confused, I'll answer. My interrogation of Samn was how he (Oriental Orthodox or not) damns loyalty to Constantinople as uselessly anti-modern if he wouldn't damn loyalty to Alexandria (or Antioch or Jerusalem or Rome) in the same terms. My meaning by "faithful Greek," in my address of Antonis, was "spiritually-faithful," "jurisdictionally-faithful" -- the full term being "faithful Greek Christian." I don't see either of these descriptions as personal attacks, and, for that matter, I doubt Iconodule sincerely worries that they are either, but you are welcome to your opinion.

I agree with your position here.  I hate it when people say the Church of Constantinople is obsolete and should be abolished.

Many of us fantasize about a Greco-Russian liberation of Constantinople and certain historic regions of Asia Minor from Turkocratia, although how to actually pull that off while avoiding a genocide or ethnic cleansing of Turks of the sort which happened following the Greek War of Independence, and the population exchanges between Greece and Turkey, and Cyprus and Turkish-occupied Cyprus, is a tricky proposition.  All of us want the Hagia Sophia back, as a functioning church.

In the interim, Turkey itself remains a country where Christianity is the third largest religion after Sunni and Shia (mostly Alevi Shia, which is radically different from the Jafari Shia religion of Iran and more like crypto-Christianity, complete with a Eucharist and a Trinity of Allah, Muhammed and Ali, in an instance of classic Sufi syncretism); there remain in addition to the Phanar, other Greek populations, and populations of Armenians, Syriac Orthodox and Roman Catholics.  All are endangered and are at risk of extinction.  The historic seat of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate is in Turkey, but it is too dangerous for His Holiness to reside there; the monastery is still in operation, but in a dangerous area and at risk from violence resulting from the Turkish-Kurdish war.   There are a few other monasteries and I think a few hundred, maybe a thousand, speakers of Turyoyo Syriac, left, in the region of Tur Abdin.   The Armenian community is still despite the genocide important enough so that the Patriarchate of Constantinople remains in operation, although local Armenians do not dare speak of a genocide.

His All Holiness, by virtue of leading most of the world's Greek Orthodox diaspora, is the most prominent Christian in Turkey; his mere presence protects the other Christians.

Also, much of Greece is part of the EP, including Thessaloniki, Crete, and basically everything Greece did not win in the War of Independence but rather gained post-1918 with the downfall of the Ottoman Empire.  Mount Athos is and always has been part of the EP.  These regions were always part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and if we limited the EP to consist only of them, and not of any churches in the diaspora or autonomous archbishophrics like Finland, we would have a church that is larger, healthier and more stable than the Jerusalem Patriarchate, the Alexandrian Greek consistuency of the His Beatitude the Thirteenth Apostle (most of the Greek Pope's flock consists of converts from missions and the Greek diaspora in South Africa), and probably roughly the same size as the remaining native Antiochian population in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq, maybe larger.

So the EP has a mandate to exist apart from the Article 28 claim giving the Church of Rome jurisdiction over the Barbarians, a right which undeniably devolved to Constantinople, and which I believe does make Constantinople the lawful canonical church in all parts of Western and Northern Europe not allocated to other autocephalous churches (all of Asia was the province of Antioch, and before or under it, the Church of the East). 

I don't think the EP has a claim over the Americas or Australia however, simply because the Roman Empire was unaware of these regions, and thus while they would probably have classified them as Barbarian, in the case of the ancient Mayans or Aztecs, they might have recognized an equivalent civilization (only the most chauvinist Greeks regarded Persians, Egyptians and Mesopotamians as Barbarians, and by their standards, the Romans were also Barbarians, and so was Alexander the Great).

I think Canon 28 should be interpreted as geography was then understood, which would give Constantinople a mandate over all of Europe not made autocephalous, and North Africa except Libya and Egypt, which were Alexandrian territory, unless ecumenical reunion with Rome happens, in which case I think, based on the contested evangelization of Bulgaria, Romania and the Balkans, would give the EP jurisdiction over everything lacking an autocephalous Patriarchate to the East of Hungary and Croatia, in addition to its own native territory as outlined above.  This, realistically, would amount to shared jurisdiction with Moscow over Finland, the Baltic States, Ukraine, and perhaps a few tiny apots in Hungary where there were Rusyns; with Kaliningrad forming an anomaly as a former German territory annexed by Russia in an action of retribution for World War II, which, along with Danzig, I feel was annexed vindictively and wrongly, the result being an ethnic cleansing of Germans which was like some of the attrocities they had committed, but which alas could not be reversed without more ethnic cleansing, unless the Polish amd Russian inhabitants of those areas decided on the basis of pure morality to join the Bundesrepublik, which, needless to say, is very unlikely.

In summary, Constantinople has an absolute right to exist and a legitimate mandate; it has a native territory of cradle Orthodox not limited to the Phanar.  Also, I personally regard the Church of Greece as an artifact of the Greek revolution, tainted with the blood of genocidal acts against innocent Turkish civillians, and tainted with the mark of horrible, un-Christian treatment of Old Calendarists, who were subject to extreme abuses, having their cassocks ripped off and their hair amd beards shaved by police.  The EP's hands are by no means clean in this respect, either.  However, in light of the anti-Semitic, inflammatory remarks of Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who I feel does occasionally step very much over the line, a part of me feels like the autocephalous Church of Greece should renounce its autocephaly and become part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate once more.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2017, 08:11:35 AM »
Also nobody has a mid-Atlantic accent unless you're trying to affect one. It's the signature move of pretentious posers.

Actually, it results from living in the UK for years and partially assimilating into their culture.   For several years I lived in Britain, working, and also wooing my fiancee, although alas we have not as of yet tied the knot and it is not at all unlikely we never will.  I've been back in the US for what, three or four years now, and I am just now getting used to typing color instead of colour once more.  I was even a member of the Conservative Party; I still carry my membership card in my wallet, and I know the names of more BBC presenters than American anchors, and more current and former MPs and Lords than Senators or Congressman.  I don't know the name of one current member of the California Legislature; when I left I was a big fan of State Senator Tony Strickland.  I forget the name of Barbara Boxer's replacement; I was also certain Diane Feinstein would retire first.  But I can tell you David Cameron was the Right Honorable member for Whitney, Nick Clegg, for Sheffield North, John Bercow, for Buckinghamshire, Dennis Skinner, for Bolsover, and Jacob Rees-Mogg, for North East Somerset ("God's Own Part of God's Own Country," as he called it in his maiden speech.  As a non-citizen resident, I think I had the right to vote in local council elections, but given that I lived in Greenwich and then Lambeth, well, suffice it to say, I never bothered to even look into it.   I hate being told "no" by British people; they have a particularly frosty way of telling you what you aren't allowed to do.

In like manner, Britons like Cary Grant and James Mason spent so much time in Hollywood, they assimilated into the American culture.  Also, in that era, some Americans and some British people spoke with accents that were more closely related than today; if one listens to the Rhotic accent of FDR, or to Winston Churchill, for example, while it is clear which one is British and which one is American, the accents are closer together. 

My father also lived in the UK for years; he went to school at Oxford and married his first wife, a militant socialist, I believe, in that country, and until the end of his life he spoke with a Virginian accent peppered with English phraseology.  For example, he always called reflectors in the road "cat's eyes."  And growing up in the 30s, our refrigerator was always referred to as the Ice Box.

I miss him so much.   :'( :'( :'( 

On a few occasions since his death I wrestled with thoughts of suicide in order to join him, but through the care of the church and grief counseling, I was able to move past that, because I know that is the one thing he would never want me to do.

Lastly, as an odd aside, even when I was a child, a lot of people asked me if I was British.  I always read a lot of books by British authors, mainly travel literature, books on classical music, the arts and architecture, and books on my very favourite subjects, trains and aircraft.  Amd only the British published books dedicated to providing a complete history of the beautiful rolling stock of the London Underground or the Paris Metro, with a line by line guide.  When I first visited the bookstore of the London Transport Museum at age 14, I thought I was in heaven.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2017, 08:13:04 AM »
^That would have been somewhat more relevant had anyone mentioned accents ;)

Someone said regarding Porter, you can always tell an American.  Well, I beg to differ.   
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #106 on: September 17, 2017, 08:17:48 AM »
All I can say is that since His Holiness evokes such mindless rage of all flavors, here and on some other sites, he and his faithful must be doing something pleasing to God.
His Holiness is.


Is the Moscow Patriarch the only EO Patriarch referred to as His Holiness?  Are all the rest either His All Holiness in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarch, or His Beatitude in the case of the other Patriarchates?

I thought the Catholicos of Georgia was also "His Holiness"
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2017, 08:27:26 AM »
^That would have been somewhat more relevant had anyone mentioned accents ;)

Someone said regarding Porter, you can always tell an American.  Well, I beg to differ.

His comment about identifying an American had nothing to do with verbal communication, so... . .  :police:

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2017, 09:39:36 AM »
AFAIK Archbishop Makarios
Who?

I am sure you are aware that the JP has ordained their man in Qatar archbishop in 2013? Used to be archimandrite. A symbolical way of asserting their claim. Wasn't necessary in my opinion ...
in the opinion of the Fathers of the Third Ecumenical Council, "anyone introducing any form conflicting with the decrees which have now been sanctioned, it has seemed best to the entire holy and Ecumenical Council that it be invalid and of no effect."

Oh by the way, not wanting to take us off topic, but just as a footnote, that paragraph happens to be the raison d'etre for the EO-OO schism regarding Chalcedon.
No, it's not.
Back on topic, which the rest of your posts are spot on.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:47:19 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2017, 09:56:25 AM »
Rather, your mindless lashing out at even the mildest critique of your chosen spiritual tribe is indicative of a cult mentality. For that, the EP cannot be blamed. Perhaps it's an Amish thing? Seek help.

Surely sounds racist?
There is nothing wrong with loyalty to the EP. And that has nothing to do with "cult mentality". Personally, I have met him and I am convinced of his sincerity and humility.
HAH usually lets his mouthpiece from Bursa (nominally, of course) handle his arrogance.

Plenty wrong with loyalty to the Millet ethnarch, and it has plenty to do with the cult mentality of ethnophyletism.

Note that Bursa only recently became nominal; that parish appears to have been the victim of intimkdation by the local government, which caused the number of parishioners to drop, and I believe also planning permission and zoning laws and other harassment were used to procure the closure of the Bursa parish (which I think was the Church of St. Euphemius; it was important, at any rate).

Erdogan's regime uses the same tactics against the Alevi, Bektasi and Mevlevi Sufis, although the Alevis at least have strength by numbers, representing a larger share of the Turkish population according to some reports than the Copts in Egypt represent of the Egyptian populace.  So while the main Alevi house of worship in 'Stamboul holds on despite having been deemed an illegal structure by the local government, the parish in Bursa had been reduced to a tiny number of frightened, elderly families, who basically had no choice but to accede to the pressure for it to close.  I expect most of them have either left the country or moved to the relative safety of the Phanar.

Its also possible that His Eminence is still serving the liturgy for them, or via a priest, sub rosa, surreptitiously, in one of their private houses, and is only nominally nominal.

Bearing in mind I disagree with virtually everything His Eminence writes, and think it would be a disaster, an absolute disaster, likely to cause a schism, if he gets chosen to replace His All Holiness Bartholomew, who for his faults I believe is a loving, sincere and devout Patriarch, one of the very best Constantinople has had in recent years, one who also does care very much about certain environmental issues, not in the silly manner of Greenpeace, but more in the common sense approach of Prince Charles or Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's account of the process by which Patmos became forested, I do believe the Metropolitan's current status of titularity is not his fault but that of the evil and repressive Erdogan regime, and if the Metropolitan is secretly sending a priest and is secretly non-titular, in the manner of the Catholics in England from the Elizabethan Era until the 1800s, I would very much respect him for it.   

If on the other hand someone produced evidence suggesting His Eminence caused, allowed, comtributed, through neglect or intention, or otherwise was a factor in the closure of the Bursa parish, I would lose all respect for him as a bishop and rate him less favorably and consider him less of a worthy bishop, less "axios" than certain Roman Catholic bishops who I strongly admire, such as Cardinal Burke, Archbishop Cordileone, and the Bishops of Mostar, Madison and Marquette, among others (Catholic bishops who are diocesan ordinaries, whose dioceses start with "M", seem to be a cut above the rest for some reason).
I am  not sure if the Bursa parish was a recent phenomena of EP Bartholomew, who has been trying to revitalize areas, to HAH credit. The Metropolitan did not reference any living faithful while saying a lot about dead and exiled ones in his consecration speech.

The judgement would not be so harsh if his speeches to other Churches did not sound like the unmarried telling parents how to raise children.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2017, 12:27:58 PM »
I found that quote hilarious, actually.  Fr. Cyril inadvertantly confessed, through this contrived ex post facto explanation, the absolute failure of the Council of Crete to accomplish anything, despite more than 40 years of preparation. 

That's hardly fair, we got some good Youtube videos out of it, like that deacon crying through the Liturgy.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2017, 01:56:03 PM »
I found that quote hilarious, actually.  Fr. Cyril inadvertantly confessed, through this contrived ex post facto explanation, the absolute failure of the Council of Crete to accomplish anything, despite more than 40 years of preparation. 

That's hardly fair, we got some good Youtube videos out of it, like that deacon crying through the Liturgy.

Well, to be fair, elsewhere in my post I did credit the Council with producing some "awfully pretty liturgies."

As I see it, the epic liturgies were all the council was able to accomplish.

And it wasn't worth the price tag.

They probably could have had an even more epic liturgy with everyone except Antioch, but including the OCA, present, if it hadn't been for the conciliar agenda which alienated the MP by virtue of omissions, Georgia by virtue of the embrace of modernism, and Bulgaria by virtue of it not being worrh the money to attend (that was actually I believe Bulgaria's main reason implied by their statement; they took the view when it looked like Serbia and the Church of Greece were considering pulling out, and they stuck to it, which was basically, "why should we spend the money to attend with Russia, Serbia, Georgia, Greece, and Cyprus all considering not attending, Antioch positively not attending, and a vague and meaningless agenda with a procedure which will preclude any kind of constructive dialogue?"  The Church of Bulgaria, to my knowledge, is very much a pro-ecumenical, New Calendarist kind of church; they partner with the OCA in addition to having their own parishes, I think they recognize the OCA's autocephaly, and I've never come across any suggestion of the kind of traditionalism one finds in Georgia or Serbia, or even Russia or Jerusalem, or Mount Athos, in anything they've done or posted.

The only controversy I've heard of with Bulgaria involved that Italian American conwertsi (perhaps a better word would be conwertitatino), who was abusing the teenagers at his semi-monastic camp for troubled youth in Alaska.  And when the Bulgarian bishops found out, they imvestigated, shut him down, and I believe he has been deposed and excommunicated.  Problem solved.

So as I see it, the Bulgarian church is modern, practical and pragmatic; their refusal to attend because of the ridiculous expense says everything you need to know about the council.

And thats not counting the millions already spent planning for it.

If the Eastern Orthodox Church had not wasted the money on "The Great and Holy Council", every jurisdiction would probably have been anle to build at least one new cathedral, put through SVS at full retail price 40 priests (80-100 at cheaper seminaries), or combine forces to open something like an Orthodox hospital or university in the United States, which would be really nice, if we had an Orthodox university on a par with the Catholic and Methodist institutes of higher learning.  Or a St. Basil's Hospital in Detroit or Alaska.

But instead, we have some youtube videos of beautiful liturgies.  Good value for money, eh?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 01:57:40 PM by Alpha60 »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2017, 02:00:43 PM »
I found that quote hilarious, actually.  Fr. Cyril inadvertantly confessed, through this contrived ex post facto explanation, the absolute failure of the Council of Crete to accomplish anything, despite more than 40 years of preparation. 

That's hardly fair, we got some good Youtube videos out of it, like that deacon crying through the Liturgy.

By the way, you know how ordinarily I have the upmost respect for bishops; at present I lack your cynicism concerning them due to naievete and youthful, hopeful ignorance, but the spectacular failure of the council did bring to mind a hillarious Russian joke told to me recently by an Orthodox priest:

"If a man has a good voice, you make him a deacon.  When his voice goes, you make him a priest.  When his mind goes, you make him a bishop."
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 02:00:59 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2017, 02:13:28 PM »
The Church of Bulgaria, to my knowledge, is very much a pro-ecumenical, New Calendarist kind of church; they partner with the OCA in addition to having their own parishes, I think they recognize the OCA's autocephaly, and I've never come across any suggestion of the kind of traditionalism one finds in Georgia or Serbia, or even Russia or Jerusalem, or Mount Athos, in anything they've done or posted.
What does the (not)recognizing the OCA's autocephaly have to do with modern/traditional Church?  :o Calendar - maybe. I don't know also any pro-ecumenical actions of the Bulgarian Church that would differentiate it from other jurisdictions.


"If a man has a good voice, you make him a deacon.  When his voice goes, you make him a priest.  When his mind goes, you make him a bishop."
One of our (Polish Orthodox) bishops-to-be has actually passed such way... Oops, I hope his mind is still with him.
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2017, 02:39:29 PM »
The Church of Bulgaria, to my knowledge, is very much a pro-ecumenical, New Calendarist kind of church; they partner with the OCA in addition to having their own parishes, I think they recognize the OCA's autocephaly, and I've never come across any suggestion of the kind of traditionalism one finds in Georgia or Serbia, or even Russia or Jerusalem, or Mount Athos, in anything they've done or posted.
What does the (not)recognizing the OCA's autocephaly have to do with modern/traditional Church?  :o Calendar - maybe. I don't know also any pro-ecumenical actions of the Bulgarian Church that would differentiate it from other jurisdictions.


"If a man has a good voice, you make him a deacon.  When his voice goes, you make him a priest.  When his mind goes, you make him a bishop."
One of our (Polish Orthodox) bishops-to-be has actually passed such way... Oops, I hope his mind is still with him.

May his memory be eternal!  The joke is just an irreverant Russian joke, doubtless aimed at that certain type of otherworldly bishop who to a worldly man, might seem eccentric or whimsical.  I found it pretty funny.  i have a great love for bishops though. 

The first time I attended a liturgy that was not hierarchical, but which was led by a bishop instead of a priest, due to the priest being ill (at an old calendarist breakaway ROCOR parish, actually), the bishop walked around the nave censing everyone, and the look on his face of pure love when he censed ,y mother and myself made me cry and made me want to hug him.  Also, when he looked me in the eyes as he blessed myself and everyone present with the two and three-branched candlesticks.  I resisted the urge, for reasons of propriety and not wanting to mess up his vestments.

 I would have grabbed and kissed his epitrachelion if I had at the time known about that custom (men can do that, right?  i have seen women do it, never tried to do it myself)

Also, although we were not members of the parish, and did not receive the Eucharist, he insisted we appear in the group photograph.  I wanted to hug him again,

On several occasions I have wanted to hug monks or bishops, but alas, I feel such a hug would be inappropriate given their monastic status.  But I really, really love them.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2017, 02:42:42 PM »
Get a room, bro, this is getting weird.   :P
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2017, 02:49:50 PM »

On several occasions I have wanted to hug monks or bishops, but alas, I feel such a hug would be inappropriate given their monastic status.  But I really, really love them.

Yeah, I've had such feelings toward some priests. But rather for different reasons.


Get a room, bro, this is getting weird.   :P
Definitely.

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2017, 03:32:11 PM »
Get a room, bro, this is getting weird.   :P

I want to hug you too!  :) 

But really, bishops are so venerable, and so loving, they remind me of my deceased great uncles amd godfathers Eugene and Wendell, who were both ministers, Lutheran and Methodist, and they remind me of my grandfather.  Hence the desire to hug them.

By the way, as we speak I am staying in a hotel room, rather than at home; I am presently relaxing in Laughlin before a scheduled trip to Las Vegas tomorrow, and then after a few more days here, I will brave the I40 to return to my little house in the desert.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2017, 03:38:52 PM »

On several occasions I have wanted to hug monks or bishops, but alas, I feel such a hug would be inappropriate given their monastic status.  But I really, really love them.

Yeah, I've had such feelings toward some priests. But rather for different reasons.


Get a room, bro, this is getting weird.   :P
Definitely.

You've never felt a sense of pure agape, devoid of any sexual content, but just pure, divine, Trinitarian love, from a priest, monk or bishop?

I haven't experienced it from a parish priest yet, but I have had the experience from Elder Ephrem, his deputy Elder Pachomius (I think, I forget his name), Hegumen Moussa, Father Christophoros at Elder Ephrem's monastery, the aforementioned ROCOR archbishop, an Orthodox abbess from Santa Barbara Convent (OCA), and an Archimandrite in canonical ROCOR in the city of Santa Barbara (the monastery bearing her name is in nearby Santa Paula).  Also probably a few other monks I am forgetting, and Father Pavli, a retired Coptic deacon who is a widower who lives at St. Anthony's.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2017, 03:50:48 PM »

On several occasions I have wanted to hug monks or bishops, but alas, I feel such a hug would be inappropriate given their monastic status.  But I really, really love them.

Yeah, I've had such feelings toward some priests. But rather for different reasons.

;)
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2017, 03:57:44 PM »

On several occasions I have wanted to hug monks or bishops, but alas, I feel such a hug would be inappropriate given their monastic status.  But I really, really love them.

Yeah, I've had such feelings toward some priests. But rather for different reasons.


Get a room, bro, this is getting weird.   :P
Definitely.

You've never felt a sense of pure agape, devoid of any sexual content, but just pure, divine, Trinitarian love, from a priest, monk or bishop?

I haven't experienced it from a parish priest yet, but I have had the experience from Elder Ephrem, his deputy Elder Pachomius (I think, I forget his name), Hegumen Moussa, Father Christophoros at Elder Ephrem's monastery, the aforementioned ROCOR archbishop, an Orthodox abbess from Santa Barbara Convent (OCA), and an Archimandrite in canonical ROCOR in the city of Santa Barbara (the monastery bearing her name is in nearby Santa Paula).  Also probably a few other monks I am forgetting, and Father Pavli, a retired Coptic deacon who is a widower who lives at St. Anthony's.

I have felt, e.g on the second day of this year foot pilgrimage to the Holy Mount Grabarka; my priest used to go every year, but since this year he became the rector of our parish, he couldn't go, so he came to school in which we were sleeping just to help two priest going with us in confession; when he came, he got a huge applause from pilgrims, and I joyously kissed his hand.

When I had classes with late abp Jeremiah, I also wanted to .. Give him in some way a strength by a gesture, since he was already very ill and fragile, on the same time with greate knwodlege, very humble and peaceful man.

But such situations happen rarely, at least in my case. I'm still a single young woman, that have had always good relations with priests (well, sometimes with quarrells) and still,  the unqiue man with whome I've fallen in love was a RC priest. Surely, it does not mean I treat priests in, let's say, sexual way, LOL. But I don't forget that I'm a woman, so I perceive if a priest is a handsome man or not.
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #121 on: September 17, 2017, 04:04:18 PM »
But I don't forget that I'm a woman, so I perceive if a priest is a handsome man or not.

We should start a thread in Other Topics where we rate the attractiveness of members of the clergy.  I think it'd be really popular.  Where's my man hecma925 to get the ball rolling? 
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #122 on: September 17, 2017, 04:18:50 PM »
But I don't forget that I'm a woman, so I perceive if a priest is a handsome man or not.

We should start a thread in Other Topics where we rate the attractiveness of members of the clergy.  I think it'd be really popular.  Where's my man hecma925 to get the ball rolling?

On the most popular Serbian Orthodox forum there is a thread "Attractiveness of men" and there appear pictures of some priests and bishops. I know, "those Serbs"....
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2017, 04:31:55 PM »
But I don't forget that I'm a woman, so I perceive if a priest is a handsome man or not.

We should start a thread in Other Topics where we rate the attractiveness of members of the clergy.  I think it'd be really popular.  Where's my man hecma925 to get the ball rolling?

On the most popular Serbian Orthodox forum there is a thread "Attractiveness of men" and there appear pictures of some priests and bishops. I know, "those Serbs"....

The more I learn about your people, the more I love your people...
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2017, 06:00:48 PM »
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/take-action/pray/turkey-rescinds-order-to-close-only-church-in-bursa/

According to this link, there are Orthodox liturgies being held in a jointly used church in Bursa. I guess Bursa still should be considered a titular see, since there is no actual Orthodox Cathedral and the Metropolitan lives in Istanbul/Constantinople, rather than in Bursa.

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #125 on: September 28, 2017, 08:41:01 PM »
Also nobody has a mid-Atlantic accent unless you're trying to affect one. It's the signature move of pretentious posers.

It's a pity you don't realize the mid-Atlantic accent was just the early version of what's now called the television newscaster accent. There's no uniform American accent, and so the powers-that-be saw fit to manufacture one. Therefore, anyone who tries not to speak the way his grandparents do is actually affecting a manufactured accent -- and that's almost everybody. It's a pity, because with some basic sympathy and knowledge, instead of erupting with irritation when you overhear Frasier, you could be pondering what's going on with this country in the last few generations.
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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #126 on: September 28, 2017, 08:46:30 PM »
I found that quote hilarious, actually.  Fr. Cyril inadvertantly confessed, through this contrived ex post facto explanation, the absolute failure of the Council of Crete to accomplish anything, despite more than 40 years of preparation. 

You folks are just like pickles in a pickle jar here. Marinating in your own animus of propaganda.  Actually substituting OC.net chatter for a worldview. I assure you, the Council accomplished much in terms of breaking ice and motivating the hopes of the faithful. It was also just a harmonious and blessed occasion. Nobody normal has been crying over it. Gosh.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #127 on: September 28, 2017, 09:09:30 PM »
Also nobody has a mid-Atlantic accent unless you're trying to affect one. It's the signature move of pretentious posers.

It's a pity you don't realize the mid-Atlantic accent was just the early version of what's now called the television newscaster accent. There's no uniform American accent, and so the powers-that-be saw fit to manufacture one. Therefore, anyone who tries not to speak the way his grandparents do is actually affecting a manufactured accent -- and that's almost everybody. It's a pity, because with some basic sympathy and knowledge, instead of erupting with irritation when you overhear Frasier, you could be pondering what's going on with this country in the last few generations.

Yes, what's wrong with this country is not enough people talk like Frasier. Do you even listen to yourself?
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #128 on: September 28, 2017, 09:23:55 PM »
Also nobody has a mid-Atlantic accent unless you're trying to affect one. It's the signature move of pretentious posers.

It's a pity you don't realize the mid-Atlantic accent was just the early version of what's now called the television newscaster accent. There's no uniform American accent, and so the powers-that-be saw fit to manufacture one. Therefore, anyone who tries not to speak the way his grandparents do is actually affecting a manufactured accent -- and that's almost everybody. It's a pity, because with some basic sympathy and knowledge, instead of erupting with irritation when you overhear Frasier, you could be pondering what's going on with this country in the last few generations.

Yes, what's wrong with this country is not enough people talk like Frasier. Do you even listen to yourself?

Err, rather, "too many people."

Let no one say I'm not man enough to admit when I butcher an argument...
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #129 on: September 29, 2017, 08:44:22 AM »
The Church of Bulgaria, to my knowledge, is very much a pro-ecumenical, New Calendarist kind of church
That description would probably fit the Faculty of Theology at Sofia, which has good relations with Orthodox and Non-Orthodox theologians in Europe and America, including from the OCA.

The Church itself seems rather divided into factions. And not so much ecumenist vs. antiecumenist (since there aren't many non-Orthodox Christians in Bulgaria, this issue is not so big), but pro-Greek vs. pro-Russian.

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #130 on: September 29, 2017, 12:25:45 PM »
Also nobody has a mid-Atlantic accent unless you're trying to affect one. It's the signature move of pretentious posers.

It's a pity you don't realize the mid-Atlantic accent was just the early version of what's now called the television newscaster accent. There's no uniform American accent, and so the powers-that-be saw fit to manufacture one. Therefore, anyone who tries not to speak the way his grandparents do is actually affecting a manufactured accent -- and that's almost everybody. It's a pity, because with some basic sympathy and knowledge, instead of erupting with irritation when you overhear Frasier, you could be pondering what's going on with this country in the last few generations.

Yes, what's wrong with this country is not enough people talk like Frasier. Do you even listen to yourself?

Err, rather, "too many people."

Let no one say I'm not man enough to admit when I butcher an argument...

Don't berate yourself over a typo. Reserve those scarce cranial electrons.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #131 on: September 30, 2017, 04:22:58 AM »
I found that quote hilarious, actually.  Fr. Cyril inadvertantly confessed, through this contrived ex post facto explanation, the absolute failure of the Council of Crete to accomplish anything, despite more than 40 years of preparation. 

You folks are just like pickles in a pickle jar here. Marinating in your own animus of propaganda.  Actually substituting OC.net chatter for a worldview. I assure you, the Council accomplished much in terms of breaking ice and motivating the hopes of the faithful. It was also just a harmonious and blessed occasion. Nobody normal has been crying over it. Gosh.

That is why I am so disappointed with it.  Did it resolve the overlapping jurisdictions in the diaspora? No.  Settle the questions about ecumenism, and in particular, reconciliation with the OO and RC?  No.  Did it address the meaningful and justified complaint of the Church of Antioch that their canonical territory is being encroached upon?  No.  No potentially controversial or substantial issue or problem was addressed.  The impressive agenda proposed for the council in 1975 did not happen, despite all of the pre-conciliar meetings.

I think this was tragic, because so much time was spent organizing and preparing for the council, we had the whole controversy about the council's decisions being "binding," and then the council basically didn't do anything.  Probably because it couldn't, without the risk of a schism, in the absence of Russia, Bulgaria, Antioch and Georgia.  The absence of the largest Orthodox Church, which outnumbers all other jurisdictions combined, was the greatest disaster.  How can you say ice was broken when the Russians, who had planned on attending, were absent?  In 2015 it looked like only Antioch would have been absent.

The EP should have addressed the concerns of the four absent churches to ensure their attendance, and modified the debate procedures to facilitate more open-ended discussion.

Right now, as I see it, this council was, on the criteria you describe, basically less of a success than most of the pre-conciliar meetings used to plan it.  What is more, because it was convened in absence of Russia, it substantially increases the risk of an MP-EP schism, which would be a disaster.

I know you really love the EP, and I love him too.  This council failed somewhere, probably because of the bureaucracy that exists in thr Phanar.  His All Holiness is venerable, and perhaps had this council been convened a few years earlier, he would have shown the strength he has shown on many previous occasions, and been able to pull it together and get everyone in the same room.  As it stands I think he was failed by his subordinates.

Some blame also probabaly should be assigned to the MP; had they attended, the council might have been able to make more progress.  One gets the impression that they were holding out for some concession which the EP was unwilling to grant, but what that was, we do not know (whereas in the case of Antioch, their entirely legitimate reasons for refusing to attend are well known, and should have been addressed by the EP years ago; the EP either needs to decide the matter in favor of Antioch or Jerusalem, although a decision in favor of Jerusalem would be very challenging I think).  As it stands, the matter was pigeonholed.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Fr Cyril Hovorun: Ethnophyletism, phyletism, and the Pan-Orthodox Council
« Reply #132 on: October 01, 2017, 08:51:27 AM »
Some blame also probabaly should be assigned to the MP; had they attended, the council might have been able to make more progress.  One gets the impression that they were holding out for some concession which the EP was unwilling to grant, but what that was, we do not know

Let's say the probability is extremely high that it's about jurisdiction in Ukraine.