Author Topic: original or ancestral sin  (Read 794 times)

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Offline youssef

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original or ancestral sin
« on: September 09, 2017, 05:40:07 PM »
The question os for oriental orthodox.
I know that you say that we has inherited the sin of adam and eve and the corrupt nature.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 08:58:21 PM »
We all have inherited the consequences of the sins of our father.. Adam.   We even inherit the consequences of the actions of not only Adam.. even our own father; however we dont inherit the guilt of the sin.
https://sites.google.com/site/syrianorthodox/home/articles/original-sin-and-baptism
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 09:00:58 PM by dhinuus »
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2017, 01:06:44 AM »
So you the syrian believe other then the copte, or it is a free believe everyone has his view. Because in a site of the cope and Pope Shenouda say we inherited the sin and the consequence of the sin.

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2017, 01:28:01 AM »
I had read the link now, no one inherited the sin of his father, and the exemple of HIV cannot be compare, because not our body has inherit the sin of Adam

Offline dhinuus

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2017, 07:54:23 AM »
Consequences of sin and the guilt of sin are slightly different. And on this as far as I know there is no difference among the Oriental Orthodox churches.  And unlike the Roman Catholic church neither the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch are infallible. And no one man speaks for the entire church..
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 02:05:02 PM »
They have discribed the sin on the artical as someone having HIV and transformed to his son do you accept this explanation.
Anba bichoy say that Athanasios and Cyril believe that we had inherited the sin and the consequence of the sin same as Augustine.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 03:03:44 PM »
They have discribed the sin on the artical as someone having HIV and transformed to his son do you accept this explanation.
Anba bichoy say that Athanasios and Cyril believe that we had inherited the sin and the consequence of the sin same as Augustine.
If you are referring to the example of the HIV infection from the article that I linked to... that is just an example used by the author of that article. I would rely more on the quotations of the church fathers.  Also in that example HIV infection transmission is not equated as sin being transmitted from father to son.. but the consequence of the sin being transmitted from father to son. The way I understand that example.. the father is guilty of the sin... even though the son is not guilty of the sin, still suffers the consequence of the sin.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 03:04:32 PM by dhinuus »
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 03:28:36 PM »
When we say we inherit the sin of Adam it doesn't mean we had eat from the tree. No one inherit the spiritual consequence of any sin only the sin of Adam.
I had tell you that Anba Bichoy a copt say that Athanasios and Cyril said we has inherited the sin of Adam.

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 04:02:43 PM »
Mina we need your view here

Offline minasoliman

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2017, 06:17:04 PM »
"Need" is such a strong word.  Let me first read what dhinuus provided, then I'll "offer" my view, which you definitely DO NOT NEED.

What you need:  St. Athanasius, "On the Incarnation"

But in any case, just because Pope Shenouda and Metropolitan Bishoy say something does not their words are infallible.  They have made their mistakes.  Coptic people who rely on just these two men are quite lazy in their endeavors to read the fathers, if they even endeavor to do so.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 06:22:00 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2017, 06:56:10 PM »
"Need" is such a strong word.  Let me first read what dhinuus provided, then I'll "offer" my view, which you definitely DO NOT NEED.

What you need:  St. Athanasius, "On the Incarnation"

But in any case, just because Pope Shenouda and Metropolitan Bishoy say something does not their words are infallible.  They have made their mistakes.  Coptic people who rely on just these two men are quite lazy in their endeavors to read the fathers, if they even endeavor to do so.

But you did anathemise a person becuse he say we just inherit the consequence. I think max michel not sure now.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2017, 07:03:32 PM »
Max Michel primarily was condemned for creating a church with no Apostolic foundation.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2017, 07:19:13 PM »
Youssef...  why do you ask?  Are you considering leaving the Papal communion and joining the Oriental Orthodox Church ?
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2017, 11:32:00 PM »
Youssef...  why do you ask?  Are you considering leaving the Papal communion and joining the Oriental Orthodox Church ?

Now i am asking for knowledge, also i have other question after that question. I don't really care about Papal communion but i appreciate so much Pope Francis.
Between the 3 churches existing i appreciate more the oriental orthodox from the other two churches, As a historical subject.

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2017, 11:57:13 PM »
Max Michel primarily was condemned for creating a church with no Apostolic foundation.

So it will be George bibawi.

When you say they made mistake, does you are saying that they had teach other then what the school of theology of the orthodox copt, or the school has some mistake.

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2017, 11:08:20 AM »
The ethiopian orthodox church say that we had inherit the original sin. Even they say that Mary was born without the original sin

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 10:11:11 AM »
Anba Ghrighorious(1919-2001) also believe that we had inherit the sin of Adam.

Offline Father Peter

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 10:39:34 AM »
St Cyril and St Severus are very clear. We do not inherit Adam's sin, but we are born into the consequences of his sin.
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 03:01:13 PM »
St Cyril and St Severus are very clear. We do not inherit Adam's sin, but we are born into the consequences of his sin.
Anba Bichoy say that St Cyril and St athanasius say that we had inherit the sin of Adam. The problem with church father quotes that every one take the quote he want and forget other quote
The prove that Pope Shenouda give it is so good and logically true

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2017, 04:22:39 AM »
When the Fathers says the words - WE ARE NOT BORN SINFUL - and - WE CANNOT INHERIT ANOTHER MANS SIN - it is very clear what the Fathers say. Some modern writers have misunderstood what all of the Fathers say. There is no problem with Church Fathers.
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2017, 06:04:26 AM »
When the Fathers says the words - WE ARE NOT BORN SINFUL - and - WE CANNOT INHERIT ANOTHER MANS SIN - it is very clear what the Fathers say. Some modern writers have misunderstood what all of the Fathers say. There is no problem with Church Fathers.

I assume they say that but we don't really care, Surely I was sinful at birth,  sinful from the time my mother conceived me.(Psalm 51:5)

If you meant Cyril say we didn't participate on Adam sin, we didn't eat from the tree yes he say that, we all say that also. Get us what they really say in English i can get what Cyril say in Arabic if you want. He believe that we inherit Adam sin.

Offline Father Peter

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 06:43:30 AM »
I don't want to discuss it with you. I think you have decided what you believe.

And you are not using the Psalm according to the teaching of St Cyril.
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2017, 07:07:50 AM »
I don't want to discuss it with you. I think you have decided what you believe.

And you are not using the Psalm according to the teaching of St Cyril.

The coptic church believe that, before Augustine, i still have many proof on why the Coptic church believe that. So are you  part of the church or no.
For exemple here what you pray.
يا من في اليوم السادس وفى الساعة السادسة سمرت على الصليب، من أجل الخطية التي تجرأ عليها أبونا أدم في الفردوس، مزق صك خطايانا أيها المسيح إلهنا وخلصنا
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 07:15:21 AM by youssef »

Offline Father Peter

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2017, 10:28:09 AM »
I do not speak Arabic, but you are trying to force these words to say something they do not.

I do not want to discuss this here with you. You have already made up your mind.

Yes I am a priest of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria, I have been for 8 years, and I have been a member of Orthodox Church of Alexandria for 23 years.
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Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2017, 11:27:48 AM »
But really it is a funny thing. Pope Shenouda, Anba Bichoy, anba Ghrighorious and most of the other person in the Coptic church are not trustful to take from them the position of the church in a subject. From whom should i take the position?
Maybe i should ask the Grand imam of Azhar Ahmad El tayeb.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 11:30:26 AM by youssef »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2017, 11:38:32 AM »
But really it is a funny thing. Pope Shenouda, Anba Bichoy, anba Ghrighorious and most of the other person in the Coptic church are not trustful to take from them the position of the church in a subject. From whom should i take the position?
Maybe i should ask the Grand imam of Azhar Ahmad El tayeb.

At least in our Church you can have a right answer that is not known by many people, not like your Church where all the answers are valid, no matter how contradictory, as long as you are under subjection to Pope Francis. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2017, 11:44:13 AM »
But really it is a funny thing. Pope Shenouda, Anba Bichoy, anba Ghrighorious and most of the other person in the Coptic church are not trustful to take from them the position of the church in a subject. From whom should i take the position?
Maybe i should ask the Grand imam of Azhar Ahmad El tayeb.

At least in our Church you can have a right answer that is not known by many people, not like your Church where all the answers are valid, no matter how contradictory, as long as you are under subjection to Pope Francis.

On what church you are talking about. You need so much to have a person like Pope Francis. He is a real represantive of Jesus on earh. ;D

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 12:48:50 PM »
But really it is a funny thing. Pope Shenouda, Anba Bichoy, anba Ghrighorious and most of the other person in the Coptic church are not trustful to take from them the position of the church in a subject. From whom should i take the position?
Maybe i should ask the Grand imam of Azhar Ahmad El tayeb.

At least in our Church you can have a right answer that is not known by many people, not like your Church where all the answers are valid, no matter how contradictory, as long as you are under subjection to Pope Francis.

On what church you are talking about. You need so much to have a person like Pope Francis. He is a real represantive of Jesus on earh. ;D

Yeahyeahyeah. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline youssef

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Re: original or ancestral sin
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 01:26:38 PM »
I will get my final point on this subject as since no one want to participate, as i say before about the oriental orthodox in this forum it seem it is true.

The copte believe that we had inherit the sin of Adam because they accept the decision of the council of Carthage in 418. So before Augustine.