Author Topic: Practical Head Covering  (Read 1200 times)

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Offline maneki_neko

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Practical Head Covering
« on: September 08, 2017, 09:11:55 PM »
I've read through a bunch of threads debating head covering or not in the modern world, but haven't been able to find a lot of answers to the following;

If I adopt a head covering for church, does this mean I should also be covering at home for prayers?

What about when I visit non-orthodox services (out of necessity for family)? While I probably wouldn't cover for my family's Protestant service (because it is not their custom), I would feel like I should cover if going to a RC Mass (my husband's family) or visiting a historical cathedral.

I am interested in wearing a head covering for church but haven't started yet.
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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 12:08:42 AM »
If you want to, on all counts.


If it's the custom for where you are going, then it'd make more sense to do so.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2017, 02:11:19 AM »
Wherever no clergy have long hair. When you enter a church that has no bishops involved with the church in any way with long hair, make sure to cover.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 02:11:54 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2017, 02:01:35 PM »
Please remember the main purpose of head covering: to not attract too much attention of others. So, if at a church (Orthodox or not) thete is no single woman with headcovering, it's better to not put any veil on your head, because it will be you bringing absorbing the rest of people.

As for private prayers - why not (but in my personal opinion also: why yes).
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Offline maneki_neko

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2017, 06:43:42 PM »
Wherever no clergy have long hair. When you enter a church that has no bishops involved with the church in any way with long hair, make sure to cover.

I'm not sure I understand this. You're saying in your opinion I should cover at say, a low church Protestant service?

Please remember the main purpose of head covering: to not attract too much attention of others. So, if at a church (Orthodox or not) thete is no single woman with headcovering, it's better to not put any veil on your head, because it will be you bringing absorbing the rest of people.

As for private prayers - why not (but in my personal opinion also: why yes).

Thanks for the advice. My Presbytera covers (although hardly anyone else) so I'm considering following her lead.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 07:18:54 PM »
Wherever no clergy have long hair. When you enter a church that has no bishops involved with the church in any way with long hair, make sure to cover.

I'm not sure I understand this. You're saying in your opinion I should cover at say, a low church Protestant service?

Please remember the main purpose of head covering: to not attract too much attention of others. So, if at a church (Orthodox or not) thete is no single woman with headcovering, it's better to not put any veil on your head, because it will be you bringing absorbing the rest of people.

As for private prayers - why not (but in my personal opinion also: why yes).

Thanks for the advice. My Presbytera covers (although hardly anyone else) so I'm considering following her lead.
I was being a bit tongue in cheek as if to say: Men break the "rules" for their own covering most of the time. So use your own discretion. If you think it is a space that would  be scandalized by you not doing it, maybe consider doing it. I don't think modern RC churches for example would be such a space.

Or what Dominika said.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 07:20:00 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 09:32:53 PM »
If your Church is crowded, you could use a football helmet. :P

Offline Indocern

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 10:58:53 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 10:59:20 PM by Indocern »

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 11:29:24 PM »
Well, you certainly couldn't go wrong by wearing one more normally, I think.

Before anyone suggests this is a sexist opinion, I'd also like to relate that I wouldn't mind seeing more guys wearing more than a t-shirt, either. Try a sweater-vest, huh guys?

Don't even bother going to church if you're planning to wear jeans, btw. Stay in bed, try to rest. That's just me though.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 11:47:53 PM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Alxandra

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2017, 04:55:10 AM »

"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"

https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/
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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2017, 05:29:18 AM »
Please remember the main purpose of head covering: to not attract too much attention of others. So, if at a church (Orthodox or not) thete is no single woman with headcovering, it's better to not put any veil on your head, because it will be you bringing absorbing the rest of people.

As for private prayers - why not (but in my personal opinion also: why yes).

If someone pays attention to a woman with covered head in an Orthodox church it's silly to blame the one with veil. It's what Orthodox folks normally do. Around here most women don't wear scarves. Some do, most don't. I don't think either is any kind of issue.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2017, 05:54:44 AM »
Please remember the main purpose of head covering: to not attract too much attention of others. So, if at a church (Orthodox or not) thete is no single woman with headcovering, it's better to not put any veil on your head, because it will be you bringing absorbing the rest of people.

As for private prayers - why not (but in my personal opinion also: why yes).

If someone pays attention to a woman with covered head in an Orthodox church it's silly to blame the one with veil. It's what Orthodox folks normally do. Around here most women don't wear scarves. Some do, most don't. I don't think either is any kind of issue.

Except you can't blame the guy if the lady looks better with a scarf. That's not how maths work.

And like I said previously, it's true that a lady looks better with some sort of hat. Discretion is the better part of valour, so it is said.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:59:33 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2017, 08:06:44 AM »
Don't even bother going to church if you're planning to wear jeans, btw. Stay in bed, try to rest. That's just me though.

Nonsense. Dressed-up jeans are pretty much the rule for church in Greece for the under-40s. Even here up north, probably half the congregation are in them. Nothing wrong with jeans as jeans, just try not to have holes in them, deliberately or otherwise.

Except you can't blame the guy if the lady looks better with a scarf. That's not how maths work.

We can blame any guy who's eyeing up the ladies, with or without scarves. That's not how participating in prayer works.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2017, 08:42:50 AM »
Don't even bother going to church if you're planning to wear jeans, btw. Stay in bed, try to rest. That's just me though.

Nonsense. Dressed-up jeans are pretty much the rule for church in Greece for the under-40s. Even here up north, probably half the congregation are in them. Nothing wrong with jeans as jeans, just try not to have holes in them, deliberately or otherwise.

Neigh. Jeans are not okay. We didn't get raised in Texas. Only in Texas and Arkansas are actual jeans permitted.
I would prefer to be arbitrary than to allow jeans to be considered anything even close to business casual. Again, that's just me though.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 08:48:05 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2017, 11:15:22 AM »
OP is sincerely exploring how this practice fits into her faith life.  Are we sincerely trying to help her reach that goal?

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2017, 12:33:30 PM »
OP is sincerely exploring how this practice fits into her faith life.  Are we sincerely trying to help her reach that goal?

Thou shalt not seek spiritual advice from internets.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 12:34:32 PM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2017, 12:55:19 PM »
OP is sincerely exploring how this practice fits into her faith life.  Are we sincerely trying to help her reach that goal?

Thou shalt not seek spiritual advice from internets.

 ;)  I'll stay optimistic, even if it's foolishly so.

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2017, 03:05:11 PM »
Please remember the main purpose of head covering: to not attract too much attention of others. So, if at a church (Orthodox or not) thete is no single woman with headcovering, it's better to not put any veil on your head, because it will be you bringing absorbing the rest of people.

As for private prayers - why not (but in my personal opinion also: why yes).

If someone pays attention to a woman with covered head in an Orthodox church it's silly to blame the one with veil. It's what Orthodox folks normally do. Around here most women don't wear scarves. Some do, most don't. I don't think either is any kind of issue.


One example: at my parish the vast majority of women do not cover; the ones who do it are rather not Polish. There used to attend our parish a half Ukrainian half Azerbaijan girl that was covering her head with big, flowery veil that was bringing attention of everybody. And, generally, all her attitude, behaviour was provoking to notice her entrance to church, coming out, passing through it etc.


Edit: so the rule applies also to.other things like e.g kneeling/not kneeling at certain moments.

Not long time ago there was a conference about women in the Orthodox Church organised here, in Warsaw. It was clearly said that st. Paul wrote detailly about women headcovering only to Corinthians; why? Because of the famous Cirinthian lust and very richly decorated haircuts of Corinthian women. It's always about the context.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 03:11:31 PM by Dominika »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2017, 03:29:09 PM »
Since nothing so far has been practical advice...and rather the usual trite 'should we shouldnt we' stuff...



My practical advice....start slowly....wear a small Kerchief style covering to church....even if your hair comes out the bottom, it will still give you an idea.

The decision is yours...not the Church Fathers...or people that write opinion columns....so if you feel even more odd covered at church or if the covering is a distraction to you....(is it falling off...are people looking?, and other worries) then it does not help -you- worship God.....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2017, 06:55:51 PM »
Always wear a hat. so that you have one to support charity.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2017, 07:04:55 PM »
Please remember the main purpose of head covering: to not attract too much attention of others. So, if at a church (Orthodox or not) thete is no single woman with headcovering, it's better to not put any veil on your head, because it will be you bringing absorbing the rest of people.

As for private prayers - why not (but in my personal opinion also: why yes).

If someone pays attention to a woman with covered head in an Orthodox church it's silly to blame the one with veil. It's what Orthodox folks normally do. Around here most women don't wear scarves. Some do, most don't. I don't think either is any kind of issue.


One example: at my parish the vast majority of women do not cover; the ones who do it are rather not Polish. There used to attend our parish a half Ukrainian half Azerbaijan girl that was covering her head with big, flowery veil that was bringing attention of everybody. And, generally, all her attitude, behaviour was provoking to notice her entrance to church, coming out, passing through it etc.


Edit: so the rule applies also to.other things like e.g kneeling/not kneeling at certain moments.

Not long time ago there was a conference about women in the Orthodox Church organised here, in Warsaw. It was clearly said that st. Paul wrote detailly about women headcovering only to Corinthians; why? Because of the famous Cirinthian lust and very richly decorated haircuts of Corinthian women. It's always about the context.


So silly right now.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 07:05:34 PM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2017, 11:44:26 PM »
Always wear a hat. so that you have one to support charity.
I'm sorry, Maneki. This is probably not the sort of advice that you were looking for.
Nothing wrong with your question, either. It's all me. Please accept my apology.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Alxandra

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2017, 08:26:44 AM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.
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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2017, 09:23:22 AM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.


Headcovering is a LOCAL pious tradition.....  There is no 'do not know better' in a place that does not practice this custom....it is not universal by any means
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2017, 10:21:46 AM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.


Headcovering is a LOCAL pious tradition.....  There is no 'do not know better' in a place that does not practice this custom....it is not universal by any means

I mean, if "LOCAL" means "the rest of the world" and "universal" means "Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States of America", sure.
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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2017, 10:37:56 AM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.


Headcovering is a LOCAL pious tradition.....  There is no 'do not know better' in a place that does not practice this custom....it is not universal by any means

I mean, if "LOCAL" means "the rest of the world" and "universal" means "Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States of America", sure.


No....What I mean is that there are places...that are considered Orthodox places...that covering is not a universal for women.

I am not strictly speaking of the US
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2017, 10:45:27 AM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.



the last thing I need right now is a temptation to judge others and a feeling of smug superiority because I "know better" based on clothing.   So, no thanks.

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14.12

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2017, 11:35:24 AM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.



the last thing I need right now is a temptation to judge others and a feeling of smug superiority because I "know better" based on clothing.   So, no thanks.



There is no situation where you won't find the opportunity to judge.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 11:51:08 AM »
Not long time ago there was a conference about women in the Orthodox Church organised here, in Warsaw. It was clearly said that st. Paul wrote detailly about women headcovering only to Corinthians; why? Because of the famous Cirinthian lust and very richly decorated haircuts of Corinthian women. It's always about the context.

How Protestant of them. This is neither the Tradition nor the tradition of the Church. Nor is it in any way permissible from an ingenuous reading of the passage, in which St. Paul not only says nothing about "lust" or lifestyle, but even writes "every" and predicates his teaching on the very universal truth of God's relationship to man thru Christ, viz.:

"I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying having his head covered dishonoureth his head, but every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head. (For that is even all one as if she were shaven: For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn; but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.) For a man, indeed, ought not to cover his head forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. (For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman, but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head: because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.) Judge in yourselves: Is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [by nature] her hair is given her for a covering."

However, he does go on to say, "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." But it cannot be denied that the Churches of God overcame any such contentiousness for a long and universal tradition of following St. Paul in this matter.

I'm amazed at the amount of emotion this thread has provoked in women posters. But a little clarity of thought would go a long way to unify our response to Maneki's very capital question.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2017, 11:51:43 AM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.

Thank you for being a voice of piety and sanity.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2017, 11:54:38 AM »
I've read through a bunch of threads debating head covering or not in the modern world, but haven't been able to find a lot of answers to the following;

If I adopt a head covering for church, does this mean I should also be covering at home for prayers?

What about when I visit non-orthodox services (out of necessity for family)? While I probably wouldn't cover for my family's Protestant service (because it is not their custom), I would feel like I should cover if going to a RC Mass (my husband's family) or visiting a historical cathedral.

I am interested in wearing a head covering for church but haven't started yet.

Practically, something on your head is just an article of clothing and you should not be abashed at wearing whatever you wish, in a respectful style. Scarves, snoods, mantillas, hats -- all these are quite appropriate and nobody should think a thing of your wearing them, in church or out. Traditionally, you have millions of women saints at your side, approving. Go forth and do as you think right, and feel no anxiety.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2017, 12:53:57 PM »
Scarves, snoods, mantillas, hats -- all these are quite appropriate and nobody should think a thing of your wearing them, in church or out.

Thank you for the bolded part. I'd like to see more hats in Orthodox churches as it is AFAIK traditional Western thing to do.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2017, 02:04:01 PM »
It is better and good to headcover, and for women to wear dresses long skirts. However, those who don't are most definitely still welcome and should not stay home of course :)
As Orthodox we do what is good, but we have mercy on those who do not know better yet.



the last thing I need right now is a temptation to judge others and a feeling of smug superiority because I "know better" based on clothing.   So, no thanks.



There is no situation where you won't find the opportunity to judge.

Everything has to be discerned

Not judged

That sanctimonious holier than thou piety attitude isn't lost on people

Women are going to dress how they want

I seriously doubt cradle Greek Orthodox daughters of priest who dress provocatively at church don't know what they are doing

I see it every Sunday and at the Russian church too

This is just Alexandra ' s personal sense of modesty and her judgement of less modest is covered by that platitudinal piety "they don't know any better"

So I am not joining the band wagon because to do so, I will probably quit

Those pieties are just so sorely lacking for me these days

The piety that would be truly useful is learn to see Christ in every person and not even notice what other apparel people wear



There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14.12

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2017, 02:06:36 PM »
I don't think Alxandra's "those who do not know better" remark was meant in anything approaching the spirit you suggest.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 02:06:47 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2017, 02:11:50 PM »
That sanctimonious holier than thou piety attitude isn't lost on people

Can you please expand on this? It sounds as tho you're condemning a holy life, but I know that can't be true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2017, 02:19:12 PM »
I don't think Alxandra's "those who do not know better" remark was meant in anything approaching the spirit you suggest.


It might not have been......but it does imply that 'once told, all good women would cover' 

which is a heavy burden to place on someone else's head....even in the right spirit. 

There are -plenty- of pious women who do not cover.....are they just 'unaware'?  Do we need to send a memo to these Serbian ladies in Canada....informing them that they could be oh so much more 'Orthodox' if they did the right thing and cover?









or this Romanian mother and  Godmother in England......baptizing a baby without a head covering.....*egads* maybe they were never told ?!





All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2017, 02:35:24 PM »
Without addressing your larger point, I have to ask if it is really that hard to believe the women depicted have not been taught about covering? Yes, they probably do know covering was traditional for their forebears, but that is not the same as knowing why or what is involved theologically, &c.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2017, 02:36:54 PM »
I also have to ask, about the photograph depicting mostly men, what you'd think if those men were all wearing baseball caps? There are parts of the country, such as parts of the Southeast and some inner cities, where a man goes nowhere without his baseball cap. What if this became true in church as well? What would you think?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
Without addressing your larger point, I have to ask if it is really that hard to believe the women depicted have not been taught about covering? Yes, they probably do know covering was traditional for their forebears, but that is not the same as knowing why or what is involved theologically, &c.


But my larger point is the point.....so per the usual you are missing the forest for the trees.......

it is not a UNIVERSAL practice.


Thus, to imply that it says something about the person who does not do it...(whether its well intentioned or not)  is to create a separation of 'those ones over there.....' vs 'us ones over here who do things 'right'....


How much more salvific and less legalistic would this all be.....if we ignored this whole debate about this and let those who cover cover...and those who don't to grow on the path to salvation and maybe someday they change their mind and decide to cover after all...

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2017, 02:58:58 PM »
How are we defining "universal" here, anyway? 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2017, 03:02:34 PM »
How are we defining "universal" here, anyway?


well I have examples from two countries not the US....and if you really want me to keep posting...there is a church picture in Ramallah....where not all women are covered....

so thatss a not 'western' country example...also some pictures from Greece.....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2017, 03:03:34 PM »
How are we defining "universal" here, anyway?

St. Vincent of Lerins might be curious as well.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2017, 03:05:07 PM »
How are we defining "universal" here, anyway?


well I have examples from two countries not the US....and if you really want me to keep posting...there is a church picture in Ramallah....where not all women are covered....

so thatss a not 'western' country example...also some pictures from Greece.....

I think it would only be fair to admit that Canada, U.S., and U.K. share a single heritage.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2017, 03:08:40 PM »
How are we defining "universal" here, anyway?


well I have examples from two countries not the US....and if you really want me to keep posting...there is a church picture in Ramallah....where not all women are covered....

so thatss a not 'western' country example...also some pictures from Greece.....

I think it would only be fair to admit that Canada, U.S., and U.K. share a single heritage.


so basically you want me to flood the thread with every non western example....because you want to play the technical argue it to death thing..


All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Practical Head Covering
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2017, 03:12:10 PM »
How are we defining "universal" here, anyway?

St. Vincent of Lerins might be curious as well.

Indeed, considering St. Vincent didn't seem sure himself how to define it precicsely. Mere moments after giving his famous "everywhere, always, by all" remark, he modified it so that it became something more like "in most places, in most times, by most people." The reason is obvious: few things have been taught or done according to a strict (truly "universal" or unanimously-held) interpretation of his 'canon.'