Author Topic: Being part of catholic community as orthodox  (Read 1582 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« on: August 31, 2017, 10:59:18 PM »
As orthodox I want to attend catholic services instead because I think they would benefit from care  and some outside the church may benefit from unity and I would benefit from appreciating the good in others and showing more I approve of them as Christian. We shouldn't have to go to them if they are true Catholics or they know God wants them there but for those weak in faith I desire to go but remain orthodox. And I can take communion in Catholic Church because they allow orthodox. I would consider being catholic if they accept me as catholic if I don't believe in immaculate conception etc or allow me to take communion as orthodox but orthodox may forbid me from orthodox communion but I am fine with that I can still go to their services when I want. If it is a issue I can repent of catholic communion. I think though I should not convert but I only consider it if I feel my behaviour is especially stumbling to many of Christians but I will not decide by what I see much because people fake it and create it but my own feeling. And there is more to say but I don't know now. I think I want and have to say if I am sure it will harm or worthily harm orthodox I won't and I probably won't anyway but there is more to say about all that

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2017, 01:05:09 AM »
Just stick to the Orthodox Church. If you want to do well for people outside the Church, go to charity, maybe even Roman Catholic charity, there's no need for you to attend a heretical parish.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 01:06:19 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2017, 02:07:06 AM »
Thanks RaphaCam. I know you want to defend the good we have of orthodox one being non heretical but I feel calling it heretical parish in this case is harsh. They are not trying to attack the church. Many in the church want unity because they are Christian. It is not a political game. I also have to address non Christians and remove judgement and stigma to them without compromising the faith but I worry joining the Catholic Church will support them to attack some of our doctrines

Online Vanhyo

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2017, 02:25:09 AM »
Weren't you an anti chalcedonian ?

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 02:58:18 AM »
This sounds so very confused. You should certainly be welcome at any Catholic parish as a guest, and I am the last person
to discourage you from looking closer into Catholicism. However, your motivation seems unclear to say the least.
Consider it may not be your task to propagate "unity". In the end, this often just leads to more indifferentism, which is an evil in itself.
Why would you partake in Catholic communion if you refuse to believe in some of our doctrines?
Most likely, nobody would stop you, but why would you choose to do so?
I would strongly advise against it, please think twice.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 05:08:38 AM »
What RaphaCam and Lepanto wrote.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 05:38:33 AM »
Weren't you an anti chalcedonian ?

No I wasn't I was against joining catholic as an agreement of their doctrines

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 05:39:33 AM »
This sounds so very confused. You should certainly be welcome at any Catholic parish as a guest, and I am the last person
to discourage you from looking closer into Catholicism. However, your motivation seems unclear to say the least.
Consider it may not be your task to propagate "unity". In the end, this often just leads to more indifferentism, which is an evil in itself.
Why would you partake in Catholic communion if you refuse to believe in some of our doctrines?
Most likely, nobody would stop you, but why would you choose to do so?
I would strongly advise against it, please think twice.

That's what I feared I won't do it then or think 100 times before considering it
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 05:39:51 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 05:40:14 AM »
What RaphaCam and Lepanto wrote.

Thanks for the support :)

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 05:45:18 AM »
As I understand it, both sides agree that if an Orthodox receives Communion from Catholics he becomes Catholic. If he wants to go back to the Orthodox, he has to go to Confession to the Orthodox. And vice versa, almost. We wouldn't quite consider it formally leaving the Catholic Church but close enough. We allow our people to ask the Orthodox for the sacraments in an emergency (not simply on Sunday) if there is no Catholic priest available, and we understand that the Orthodox are supposed to say no.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 07:35:52 AM »
There is no way we can have deep relations then but I guess I could go to the services sometimes and learn what they believe  or just to support the community but I don't think I will because of some concerns maybe mentioned above by me or others and thinking 100 times but that was for another issue. If I go to enquire about their beliefs I seem to support their beliefs since I make it like I am not sure can a person ever really know and they will continue their beliefs to get more attention.
I believe my beliefs but the church still believes in ecumenism in a sense of promoting peace about our doctrines and discovering why they don't like our beliefs. Maybe we have not been deep enough and we are not perfectly orthodox yet but striving and right in many matters
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 07:43:28 AM by mikeforjesus »

Online Vanhyo

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 09:26:51 AM »
Mike, are you are Eastern Orthodox ?

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 09:51:41 AM »
Thanks RaphaCam. I know you want to defend the good we have of orthodox one being non heretical but I feel calling it heretical parish in this case is harsh. They are not trying to attack the church. Many in the church want unity because they are Christian. It is not a political game. I also have to address non Christians and remove judgement and stigma to them without compromising the faith but I worry joining the Catholic Church will support them to attack some of our doctrines
I say it's a heretical parish because, according to the teachings of the Orthodox Church, they espouse heresies (even if absolutely unconsciously). Still, they can be good Christians pleasing to God, and we should say love to them, not random anathemas.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 02:18:55 PM »
What RaphaCam and Lepanto wrote.

Is completely contradictory.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 02:26:02 PM »
Mike, are you are Eastern Orthodox ?

I believe he is Coptic.  The Catholics will still communicate him, but if he receives communication from a Roman Catholic priest the Coptic Church will excommunicate him if it finds out, if he is a member of that church.  Therefore it is extremely important that he not go to a Catholic church, because if he does, and takes communion from them, he would potentially have to be re-chrismated or even re-baptized* in order to resume taking communion in the Coptic church.

This applies with twice as much force if he is Ethiopian.

*I believe the Coptic synod recently decided to receive converts from the Roman church by chrismation, but I am not sure if this has been finalized, or if it applies to Coptic apostates or only to converts from Eastern Catholicism.   As a rule, the Coptic church has historically rejected Roman Catholic and Protestant baptisms, while receiving Eastern Orthodox by simple confession/profession of faith.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 02:57:44 PM »
The Catholics will still communicate him

The word is commune.

Communication and communion are not the same thing. Heck, believing they are is the whole reason we have all that hysteria over 'ecumenism'. ::)
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2017, 03:08:34 PM »
What RaphaCam and Lepanto wrote.
Is completely contradictory.
Not really.  In a complementary way, both @RaphaCam and @Lepanto are saying the same thing.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2017, 03:09:07 PM »
As I understand it, both sides agree that if an Orthodox receives Communion from Catholics he becomes Catholic.
Not the Catholic side, no.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2017, 10:25:06 PM »
Part of the reason I want to take catholic communion  is because I believe my success in this world is a necessary witness unless it is clear the world attacks true believers and many Catholics are successful and charitable.

St. Paul says we must correct those in opposition if God perhaps grants them repentance.
He is talking about those who know the truth but wish it to be more effective
They are not guaranteed repentance they have to just submit

But it is not as fruitless to engage those who don't know the truth at all. I can learn and be certain if Catholic Church teaching is true not just probably. Therefore they should teach me. I hope I have time to seek it and orthodoxy and I will know what is true.

I will not be haste to convert because I have faith in the testimony of those in thread below: demonic oppression of converts
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,72299.msg1483509/topicseen.html#msg1483509

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2017, 01:01:29 AM »
The Catholics will still communicate him

The word is commune.

Communication and communion are not the same thing. Heck, believing they are is the whole reason we have all that hysteria over 'ecumenism'. ::)
"To communicate" may also be used to convey the same meaning as "to commune"

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Code of Canon Law, Canon 921, §2:

Even if they have already received holy communion that same day, it is nevertheless strongly suggested that in danger of death they should communicate again.

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Catholic Encyclopedia, Frequent Communion

It should be noted that in the early Church and in the patristic ages, the faithful communicated, or at any rate were expected to communicate, as often as the Holy Eucharist was celebrated (St. John Chrysostom loc. cit.; Apostolic canons, X; St. Gregory the Great, Dial. II, 23). They received even oftener, since it was the custom to carry away the Sacred Elements and communicate at home (St. Justin, loc. cit.; Tertullian, "Ad Uxorem", II, v; Euseb., Church History VI.44). [...] Good Christians still communicated once a week, down to the time of Charlemagne, but after the break-up of his empire this custom came to an end.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2017, 02:08:06 AM »
You have to be able to discuss with all atleast when you should. Paul says if any is married to an unbeliever and they are willing to live let him not divorce. But you must never care what they think when you want to be part of church
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:09:09 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2017, 09:39:09 AM »
Catholics and orthodox asked God which faith is true and God answered Orthodox.
Why do you want to move from true faith is beyond me knowing that somebody that did this earned hell.
Orthodoxy is for life and people going from orthodpoxy to something else are bin danger of hell.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2017, 10:29:34 AM »
Part of the reason I want to take catholic communion  is because I believe my success in this world is a necessary witness unless it is clear the world attacks true believers and many Catholics are successful and charitable.
You worry too much about success in this world, for "what good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?" (Mt 16:26)  The prince of this world is a vile master, he's a tyrant who enjoys to raise his followers in this side of death just to throw them to the deepest chasm of hell in the other side.  At the end of the day, like Our Lord in the desert, you have to turn your back to the pomps of this world.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2017, 10:44:56 AM »
As I understand it, both sides agree that if an Orthodox receives Communion from Catholics he becomes Catholic.
Not the Catholic side, no.

Answers aren't really unanimous on the Orthodox side either. But then again, perhaps my experience is merely anecdotal.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2017, 11:03:50 AM »
I am not going to move for money sake. I am happy without money. I wouldn't say I wanted success if so. It is just that without being successful people accuse you only preach because you are failure. And I believe I have not obeyed parable of talents. It is necessary to obey it to be peaceful and do many works for God in His name without offending. Just as you shouldn't rebuke an older man. Paul preached only privately to those of reputation. Therefore I can't preach publicly as I do now for example on Facebook or to Rich neighbors I don't know unless successful
If Catholic is true and I accuse it to be all about money then I would have blasphemed the way and made no one consider it and no one to go to heaven
Maybe I don't need to be concerned about that because we should care for truth only ourselves. Therefore I shouldn't even encourage people to see if Catholic is true but for myself I won't let fear of being cast out stop me from seeing truth. If orthodox is true which I believe it is it is true if any become catholic they will go to hell atleast for similar reasons I appeared to but I think for whatever reason because they are deceived. There was no family pressure to convert and they are mature enough to know faith is all that matters it don't matter about family when you were tolerated already as orthodox. I will only convert if I find it the most spiritual and able to teach orthodox also how to prosper. All the orthodox who prosper now maybe learnt it from catholic
Maybe I don't want to be Catholic as much as I want to learn orthodoxy best from them. Because though they are not the true faith they may encourage more orthodox things we teach but have forgotten to focus on. Anyway I won't convert unless I know it is true and orthodox can not answer what I discover but I believe I already know the answers from orthodox perspective but I imagine I may discover they teach truth if I know God revealed it to me but that seems impossible
My path looks destructive so I choose to give it up that was just what I thought but I am not encouraged anymore inside to do it. Therefore if I have no accepted reason from you orthodox to pursue I won't because we orthodox won't deny a valid reason
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 11:10:40 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2017, 12:47:43 PM »
Psalm 1 says a character of righteous is he prospers in all things even if that refers to spiritual things being faithful over natural talents may help though it must be your talent we are called to be faithful not successful. Not everyone has much natural talent therefore things become difficult therefore you are right not to be worried but if you learn from Catholic who focus more on this orthodox teaching which we also teach we may be more effective though it is not required. We must just focus on our abilities we have now if we believe we are of the truth. Because we never rejected a word of truth we thought is right but we always sought and found answers within our orthodox faith
But we have jesus as our teacher we don't need another teacher so I don't need to learn from Catholic except what I observe as paul says whatever is noble think on these things
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 12:49:29 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2017, 10:02:48 AM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2017, 04:22:18 AM »
The Catholics will still communicate him

The word is commune.

Communication and communion are not the same thing. Heck, believing they are is the whole reason we have all that hysteria over 'ecumenism'. ::)

There are numerous examples in scholarly liturgy of the verb communicate being used; I encounter it more frequently than commune.  Conversely, in a sense, I agree with you; communicate does come across as verbose, in the same manner as the word obligate vs. the simpler oblige. 

I think I get the theological point you are making regarding excommunication, in that, your thought is this misunderstanding leads Protestants to think we are merely snubbing them by not communing them?
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2017, 08:51:52 AM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.

Ok I should have thought atleast I won't unless orthodoxy has no answers. I don't need to be convinced of falsehoods. I apologise I don't plan on doing it anymore ever anyway nor should anyone else we already have few supporting the true faith

Online Vanhyo

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2017, 01:34:38 PM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.
I don't think it makes any difference

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2017, 01:48:29 PM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.
I don't think it makes any difference

I think it does because they won't accept back easily
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 01:52:00 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2017, 02:31:36 PM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.
I don't think it makes any difference

I think it does because they won't accept back easily

They should though but they may think you have not shown true repentance for trying you are just coming back because it didn't work

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2017, 02:33:06 PM »
What do you mean vanhyo ?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 02:34:43 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2017, 02:34:22 PM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.
I don't think it makes any difference

True.  As an Orthodox, why single out Rome when there are other Chalcedonians to excommunicate yourself with? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2017, 07:04:24 PM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.
I don't think it makes any difference

It does, in that, comversely, according to mamy reports, several Syriac Orthodox bishops have communicated Catholics and/or allowed their parishioners to avail themsevels of the Eucharist from a Catholic priest. 

In the Middle East at least, I believe Syriac amd Amtiochian (EO) can partake at each others parishes if the need arises without difficulty, and it is difficult to imagine a scenario where the OCA or the AOCNA or the OOs in North America, except for the stricter jurisdictions, like the Ethiopians, amd on the EO side, ROCOR, GoArch, and so on, especially fervent "comwertsy" parishes (although I have heard of a Russian priest with ROCOR communing Coptic Christians in Canada, pending the establishment of their own church).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2017, 07:15:49 PM »
The bottom line is if you are a Copt and take communion in a Catholic Church you become excommunicated.
I don't think it makes any difference

True.  As an Orthodox, why single out Rome when there are other Chalcedonians to excommunicate yourself with?

Its a pity the mere possibility of excommunication exists for communimg in an EO or OO church.  Partaking in a Protestant church however is "excommunicable" beyond any doubt.  One should not partake of their Eucharist.

I don't believe it works.

Before becoming Orthodox, I briefly attended Anglican (ECUSA) churches while occasionally visiting Orthodox ones, mainly one parish where the traditionalist priest was a friend of mine; I stopped attending and had converted to Orthodoxy by the time he retired and was replaced by his female deacon (The Episcopalians refuse to call their deaconesses as such, but call them deacons; I once got an earful about that from one of the brothers in their somewhat withering Benedictine Order of the Holy Cross).

On several occasions, partaking of the "eucharist" upset my stomach; they used a sour white wine.

After converting to Orthodoxy, I have never been made to fill ill by our Eucharist; on the contrary, it has healed me from ailments on some occasions, and it has a taste which is difficult to describe; beautiful, unearthly, unlike bread and water and wine mixed together, but rather with something else, something tingling, supernatural, present.

So whereas I believe in the Orthodox Eucharist, I don't believe Anglicans, for example, have the ability to consecrate it, at least not in the Episcopal Church USA, even if the priest is personally humble, theologically orthodox, and pious.   

Catholcism is something else; they might have a valid Eucharist, but mikeforjesus, as a Copt, should not attempt to find out, because the Coptic church is very strict, and if he partakes of the Eucharist in a Catholic church, he would at a minimum likely get chewed out by his Coptic parish priest; he might get penanced; he might even have to be re-Chrismated, I don't know.  The bottom line is that he should not do it.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Online Vanhyo

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2017, 02:06:10 AM »
What do you mean vanhyo ?

If the ecumenists are correct, and RC OO and EO are just branches of the one Church, then you will not gain anything.

If the Church is one in a visible sense, then you are still not gaining anything by moving from a questionably orthodox denomination to a clearly cocadox one.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2017, 02:49:23 AM »
What do you mean vanhyo ?

If the ecumenists are correct, and RC OO and EO are just branches of the one Church, then you will not gain anything.

If the Church is one in a visible sense, then you are still not gaining anything by moving from a questionably orthodox denomination to a clearly cocadox one.

In no respect is the Coptic Church questionably Orthodox; such an appelatiom befits the Assyrian Church of the East, the Polish National Catholic Church, the priestless Old Believers, some Continuing Anglo Catholic jurisdictions like the Province of Christ the King, and the Roman Catholic Church, which in some of its worship, is orthodox, but in some other areas, primarily in the Novus Ordo Roman Rite, and to a lesser degree the Maronite and Melkite Rites, there are serious problems, both in terms of liturgical abuses and common practices not officially sanctioned by the Pauline missal, and in terms of the contents of the revised liturgy itself, and a general lack of the liturgical beauty and splendour which characterized the old Latin Mass of the Tridentine Liturgy before 1969 (especially before 1952, when Pope Pius XII impiously began modifying the Paschal Triduum; up until that point the Roman and Byzantine (Eastern Orthodox) liturgical rites were very nearly in alignment, especially on Holy Saturday).

The canonical Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are undoubtably Orthodox.   The Old Calendarists and Old Ritualists are very probably fully Orthodox, separated from the canonical church as a result of alienation stemming from ill-advised and divisive liturgical changes on the part of the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow, liturgical changes which were for a long time imposed, so that the faithful had no option but to accede to them.  I would argue ROCOR is an Old Calendarist jurisdiction, which like the Edinovertsie before it, returned to the canonical Eastern Orthodox communion.   Fortunately, thus far, the Oriental Orthodox have avoided any schisms of this sort; at present the only real schism divides the Syriac church in India, is political in nature, and does not rend the communion in two, for both halves of the Syriac church in India are in full communion with the Copts, Armenians and Ethiopians.

The case for the schismatic national churches, the UOC-KP, but especially the Church of Macedonia, is lwss compelling, although I increasingly feel that Moscow and Belgrade should reconcile them and grant them a tomos of autocephaly, in order to end the schism, for the greater good of the EO communion as a whole, and for the cure of souls in those churches (in Macedonia, there are virtually no canonical Orthodox churches; leaving an entire nation in schism, despite the appalling abuse suffered by the Serbian Archbishop of Ocnrid, is something that cannot be allowed to persist).

Beyond these cases, we enter the realm of questionable Orthodoxy.  I cannot declare the Roman Catholic Church to be "obviously cacodox" because the word Orthodox literally means "Correct Worship," and the Eastern Catholics use the same liturgical rites in worship that we do.  It is in the Roman Rite, primarily, I would argue, in the 1969 revision, and abuses that commonly occur in parishes, that cacodoxy occurs, for example, the infamous clown masses.  These have had a devastating effect on the Roman church; Novus Ordo congregations experience a decline similiar to the mainline Protestants, whereas those parishes that have restored the Tridentine mass via Pope Benedict XVI's instruction Summorum Pontificum have a level of attendance that is truly impressive, even by the standards of the healthier Orthodox jurisdictions (such as the Coptic church).

But mikeforjesus is a member of a church which is certainly Orthodox, the Coptic church, and one which is also particularly strict, only recently (this year) admitting the validity of Roman Catholic baptisms.  It would be very unwise of him to partake of the Eucharist in a Catholic church, and also, more likely than not, the parish near to him would be a Novus Ordo parish, with the attendant liturgical abuses and impieties (guitars, praise and worship music, questionable doctrine in the homilies, a lack of prayerful reverence).

If you will forgive a slightly vulgar analogy, the average Coptic parish is like a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus, whereas the average Roman Rite Catholic parish using the Novus Ordo mass in many parts of the US is a bit like a rusted out Yugo or Lada, with a flat tire.  Why should he risk severe canonical discipline or even having to be rechrismated in order to receive the Eucharist in such a setting?

In the case of, say, a Coptic Catholic parish, which uses the same liturgy as the Coptic Orthodox church, the question is a bit different, but he shouldn't take communion there either, because the Orthodoxy of the Coptic Orthodox Church is assured, for it is in most places, barring a handful of parishes in extra-diocesan areas that have fallen under the destructive influence of evangelical Protestants, pristine in both worship and doctrine.  The Coptic Catholic Church might potentially be even more pristine; I have heard that in their worship they are closer to the slightly higher standards held by the Coptic Orthodox during the 1960s.  However, the Coptic Catholic Church is part of a communion which, in perhaps a majority of its parishes, those of the Roman Rite serving the Novus Ordo Mass, is engaging in cacodox worship, and which has also affirmed certain doctrines, most notably, Papal Infallibility, which appear to be completely contradictory and irreconciable to those of the Orthodox Church.

So, he should avoid taking communion in the Catholic church.  He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion, unless he is resolute in his determination not to partake.  But even then, unless he has access to a Tridentine or other traditional mass, which he probably does not, there is no point.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2017, 03:42:48 AM »
So, he should avoid taking communion in the Catholic church.  He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion, unless he is resolute in his determination not to partake.  But even then, unless he has access to a Tridentine or other traditional mass, which he probably does not, there is no point.

Indeed, he should not take communion in the Catholic church, as agreed by every single poster in this thread.
But where did you observe "peer pressure to take communion"?
This is ridiculous.  >:(
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2017, 03:46:17 AM »
So, he should avoid taking communion in the Catholic church.  He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion, unless he is resolute in his determination not to partake.  But even then, unless he has access to a Tridentine or other traditional mass, which he probably does not, there is no point.

Indeed, he should not take communion in the Catholic church, as agreed by every single poster in this thread.
But where did you observe "peer pressure to take communion"?
This is ridiculous.  >:(

At every Novus Ordo mass I have had the misfortune of attending.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2017, 04:03:04 AM »
So, he should avoid taking communion in the Catholic church.  He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion, unless he is resolute in his determination not to partake.  But even then, unless he has access to a Tridentine or other traditional mass, which he probably does not, there is no point.

Indeed, he should not take communion in the Catholic church, as agreed by every single poster in this thread.
But where did you observe "peer pressure to take communion"?
This is ridiculous.  >:(

At every Novus Ordo mass I have had the misfortune of attending.

And how did this alleged peer pressure manifest itself?
Did people talk to you: "Hey, Alpha, why don´t you line up for communion?"

una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2017, 06:26:23 AM »
So, he should avoid taking communion in the Catholic church.  He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion, unless he is resolute in his determination not to partake.  But even then, unless he has access to a Tridentine or other traditional mass, which he probably does not, there is no point.

Indeed, he should not take communion in the Catholic church, as agreed by every single poster in this thread.
But where did you observe "peer pressure to take communion"?
This is ridiculous.  >:(

At every Novus Ordo mass I have had the misfortune of attending.

And how did this alleged peer pressure manifest itself?
Did people talk to you: "Hey, Alpha, why don´t you line up for communion?"

Not in a Catholic church, but that did actually happen to me in the Episcopal church when I decided to abstain one morning on the grounds of not feeling prepared. Later, when I joined the Orthodox Church and explained to my friend the Episcopal priest, who was about to retire, why I couldn't take communion from him any longer, and also my concerns about the Eucharist and his bishop (who he personally disliked), I fear he took it the wrong way.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2017, 07:35:25 AM »
So, he should avoid taking communion in the Catholic church.  He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion, unless he is resolute in his determination not to partake.  But even then, unless he has access to a Tridentine or other traditional mass, which he probably does not, there is no point.

Indeed, he should not take communion in the Catholic church, as agreed by every single poster in this thread.
But where did you observe "peer pressure to take communion"?
This is ridiculous.  >:(

At every Novus Ordo mass I have had the misfortune of attending.

And how did this alleged peer pressure manifest itself?
Did people talk to you: "Hey, Alpha, why don´t you line up for communion?"

Not in a Catholic church, but that did actually happen to me in the Episcopal church when I decided to abstain one morning on the grounds of not feeling prepared. Later, when I joined the Orthodox Church and explained to my friend the Episcopal priest, who was about to retire, why I couldn't take communion from him any longer, and also my concerns about the Eucharist and his bishop (who he personally disliked), I fear he took it the wrong way.

Previously, you wrote
"He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion...[]"
And now it turns out you are talking about some personal experience in an Episcopal church.
So what you wrote was just plain untrue.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2017, 09:26:30 AM »
So, he should avoid taking communion in the Catholic church.  He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion, unless he is resolute in his determination not to partake.  But even then, unless he has access to a Tridentine or other traditional mass, which he probably does not, there is no point.





Indeed, he should not take communion in the Catholic church, as agreed by every single poster in this thread.
But where did you observe "peer pressure to take communion"?
This is ridiculous.  >:(

At every Novus Ordo mass I have had the misfortune of attending.

And how did this alleged peer pressure manifest itself?
Did people talk to you: "Hey, Alpha, why don´t you line up for communion?"

Not in a Catholic church, but that did actually happen to me in the Episcopal church when I decided to abstain one morning on the grounds of not feeling prepared. Later, when I joined the Orthodox Church and explained to my friend the Episcopal priest, who was about to retire, why I couldn't take communion from him any longer, and also my concerns about the Eucharist and his bishop (who he personally disliked), I fear he took it the wrong way.

Previously, you wrote
"He should avoid even attending a Catholic Mass, where there is often peer pressure to take communion...[]"
And now it turns out you are talking about some personal experience in an Episcopal church.
So what you wrote was just plain untrue.

No, within a Novus Ordo mass I have felt peer pressure to partake, in the form of the entire congregation queing up, odd looks at me for remaining seated, and so on.  I attended with a friend from Australia a Novus Ordo mass at the Catholic parish in Florence, AZ, while dining with him (he and his Greek Orthodox friend come to the US twice a year to visit Orthodox and Catholic monasteries and empty the buffets in Las Vegas).  Even my friend expressed disappointment I did not commune.

On two other occasions I felt strong peer pressure to tale communion in the form of hand gestures and so on. 

The most egregious example of this did occur in the Episcopal Church, in terms of actual verbal inquiry as to why I wasnt communing, but within Novus Ordo parishes it is more subtle.

This is further encouraged by the general lack of reverance.  The language of consecration is loose and ambiguous, the altar is moved and the celebration versus populum takes away the profound sense of the sacred mystery; there is no fear and no trembling in that aweful and great moment when the Holy Spirit takes flight and descends upon the Gifts, turning them into the actual body and blood of our Lord, such as one experiences in the Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic and other Orthodox rites.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 09:27:53 AM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Being part of catholic community as orthodox
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2017, 09:35:45 AM »
My own private view on the Roman Catholic Church is that some of your bishops are true bishops, a few of your recent Popes such as St. Pius X were worthy of the dignity of the Patriarchate of Rome, and that your sacraments are potentially efficacious in dioceses where the bishop is a true, Orthodox bishop, where the priest is a true priest, and where the liturgy is a true liturgy, and this would include some Novus Ordo celebrations which are conducted with great reverence.

But then you see liturgical abuses on YouTube, such as at the World Youth Conference, that are a ridiculous, pathetic sight to behold, with no reverence, and no hieratic dignity. 

Is Raymond Leo Cardiinal Burke a true bishop?  I think so.  Is the bishop of Madison, the bishop of Marquette, the Archbishop of San Francisco?  I think so.  Are most of the Eastern Catholic bishops true bishops?  Yes, aside from the iconoclastic new Patriarch of Babylon, who dispensed with the traditional headgear of his office and made an inappropriate and ill-conceived overture to the Assyrian Church of the East into entering into communion with him, which was expressed in such a crass way as to likely substantially impede the process of ecumenical reconciliation between the Assyrians and Rome.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.