Author Topic: Dis-illusionment and letting go  (Read 9007 times)

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2017, 10:24:21 AM »
There are like no new churches opening up at all,
Except where they are. I know of several.

Of course the RCC is losing some members as the culture secularizes. Everyone is. Including us.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2017, 10:38:38 AM »
Lepanto: +1. I'm like you; I'll add I keep the rites separate. All Byzantine Orthodox prayers at the Russian icon corner (which is all Orthodox but no post-schism saints), for example. You don't have to, but I prefer it.

Alpha60: Proof? All I see are typical Orthodox assertions. (I admit I don't have numbers but they're easy to get.) By the way, you got the details of the (to me, heartbreaking because people left the church and it was our fault) founding of ACROD wrong. Some not-very-nice clergy got Rome to enforce a rule banning, in North America, the Eastern practice of ordaining the married; it didn't affect the married priests already here. (We don't transfer men to different canonical churches just because they want to be married priests.) The church can make such rules but we really shouldn't have done this. I understand the rule's quietly been revoked but the damage is done. That said, given the losses due to assimilation among the Orthodox, we can't assume what Protestants do, that married clergy are a cure-all for a lack of vocations and of parishioners.

My guess is you're still seeing a slow, steady decline among the Orthodox, the Byzantine Catholics, and the Polish National Catholic Church (in most ethnic American-born Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic families I've known, the grandkids have left), only with the Orthodox you see an uptick of non-ethnic converts but the anecdote I read is their second generation is drifting away too. The convert boomlet seems very clerical too: second-career clergy, etc. So the OCA pretends to be a universal church by making non-Slavs their metropolitans. So a few more clergy aren't ethnic; a flash in the pan. Here in Philadelphia, the Greek community is immigrant, the Russian likewise though largely secular or Jewish but there is an uptick in some Russian Orthodox parishes including my former one, and the old Slavic neighborhoods (from before World War I; read: Ruthenian, Catholic and Orthodox) and their churches are basically dead; they've cleared out and died off. (One such Orthodox church is kept afloat by its yearly weekend festival.) The Antiochian convert places are in the suburbs.

There is no such thing as the Orthodox Church. There are Orthodox dioceses, which are sisters of Catholic dioceses in that both have real bishops and the Mass. There is an Orthodox small-t tradition, the Byzantine Rite, which again I happily participate in, in a way of course the Orthodox don't credit. But in the sense of the church founded by Christ with teaching authority, there is no Orthodox Church; the Catholic Church as a whole has no sisters. Your bishops are bishops but they have no claim on me. (They don't have jurisdiction like Catholic bishops; their dioceses are out of communion with us.) Good Orthodox don't believe our baptisms, ordinations, Masses, etc. are valid in themselves, so fair enough. None of which is to claim that born Orthodox aren't acting in good conscience or are hellbound; I have no right to say that.

Got to give the Wild West of Facebook pages credit; they're not churchy echo chambers.

I've seen the numbers on ACROD attendance, and I will get them; we have one member who is ACROD who might know.

The Coptic church is experiencing growth and opening new parishes.  Just visit the websites of the Diocese of Los Angeles or the Diocese of the South, or call a Coptic priest.  I suggest calling Fr. Markos Hanna of St. Michael the Archangel Coptic Church in Simi Valley, a friend of mine.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2017, 10:44:34 AM »
There is no such thing as the Orthodox Church. There are Orthodox dioceses, which are sisters of Catholic dioceses in that both have real bishops and the Mass.

There is no global universal church apart from the diocese. That's basic Christian ecclesiology. Even your catechism recognizes this in its mangled, incoherent way.
Quote
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2017, 10:53:05 AM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2017, 01:05:25 PM »
One could begin to think, after one had read enough recent posts, and if one were uncharitable, that Mr. Fogey's religion is mainly himself.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2017, 01:08:40 PM »
Well, if I look like Milhouse Van Houten trapped in a Raymond Chandler novel I'd worship myself too.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2017, 03:04:27 PM »
There are like no new churches opening up at all,
Except where they are. I know of several.

Of course the RCC is losing some members as the culture secularizes. Everyone is. Including us.

I should've added *from my anecdotal experience
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2017, 07:22:07 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2017, 07:38:32 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

Blind as a bat.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Antonis

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2017, 08:41:17 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

I haven't seen particular statistics on Orthodox Christianity - that is something that is hard to find data on; however, to say that Roman Catholicism isn't on life support and quote on quote "Byzantine Christianity" needs a resurgence via Rome is laughable.

In 10 years, Roman Catholics will become a minority in the United States due to the amount of people who either convert or lose faith entirely, and church attendance in Roman Catholicism constantly falls year by year.

There are like no new churches opening up at all, and churches are closed nonstop. In the Roman Catholic diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Lennon was infamous for how many churches he closed - he closed 30 churches, so much so that a priest committed schism with the RCC to keep his church open, and some parishioners actually got in contact with the Vatican to put a stop to it.

And this is not to mention the various heretical bishops (like Bishop Mahoney, Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Barron, who are all heretics) as well as the abundance of offensive liturgy (some going so far to be demonic in the Charismatic movement) which all cause people to lose faith when they see all of these contradictions, which only accentuates the process.

At least in Orthodox Christianity I'm constantly hearing news of Churches being opened in Western Europe and the United States, etc., and in the case of Russia, Orthodoxy is constantly growing.
LivenotoneviL,

It is an ad hominem, and thus a breach of forum rules, to refer to individuals as "heretics." Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

All the best,

Antonis
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2017, 10:45:38 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

I haven't seen particular statistics on Orthodox Christianity - that is something that is hard to find data on; however, to say that Roman Catholicism isn't on life support and quote on quote "Byzantine Christianity" needs a resurgence via Rome is laughable.

In 10 years, Roman Catholics will become a minority in the United States due to the amount of people who either convert or lose faith entirely, and church attendance in Roman Catholicism constantly falls year by year.

There are like no new churches opening up at all, and churches are closed nonstop. In the Roman Catholic diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Lennon was infamous for how many churches he closed - he closed 30 churches, so much so that a priest committed schism with the RCC to keep his church open, and some parishioners actually got in contact with the Vatican to put a stop to it.

And this is not to mention the various heretical bishops (like Bishop Mahoney, Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Barron, who are all heretics) as well as the abundance of offensive liturgy (some going so far to be demonic in the Charismatic movement) which all cause people to lose faith when they see all of these contradictions, which only accentuates the process.

At least in Orthodox Christianity I'm constantly hearing news of Churches being opened in Western Europe and the United States, etc., and in the case of Russia, Orthodoxy is constantly growing.
LivenotoneviL,

It is an ad hominem, and thus a breach of forum rules, to refer to individuals as "heretics." Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

All the best,

Antonis
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Welp....shoot...my bad.

I generally try to avoid ad-hominem attacks, but I didn't realize that calling someone a "heretic" is forbidden.
Sorry!

The reason I called them this is because these bishops in particular have not only promoted homosexuality in the Roman church, but have taken part in LGBT parades, have participated in apathetic ecumenism, have attacked liturgy, have wasted millions of dollars on nontraditional architecture with pagan inspired rituals, and have even tried to put Lutheranism in a positive light - one even went so far as to call Martin Luther a "vessel of grace."

These were my reasons, which I see as heterodox - but it still isn't appropriate, so I apologize.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:51:29 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #101 on: September 15, 2017, 10:47:27 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

Blind as a bat.

What are your objections to this "style" of iconography? I think a lot of 12th century and 13th century Roman iconography has a lot of influence from the East....and considering that, although inferior, many realistic Russian icons are used and allowed for veneration, how is this wrong?

Does the emphasis on the "color blue" stir the passions? (just pulling your leg by the way).

By the way, this icon comes from the "Beatus of Facundus," and they are paintings of the Apocalypse of John. These icons are pre-schism by the way.
https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:53:26 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #102 on: September 15, 2017, 10:56:00 PM »
Oh, my bad - I didn't see him advocate statues.

Even then, I'm still split on whether or not statues are acceptable to venerate.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:56:44 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #103 on: September 15, 2017, 11:28:01 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

I haven't seen particular statistics on Orthodox Christianity - that is something that is hard to find data on; however, to say that Roman Catholicism isn't on life support and quote on quote "Byzantine Christianity" needs a resurgence via Rome is laughable.

In 10 years, Roman Catholics will become a minority in the United States due to the amount of people who either convert or lose faith entirely, and church attendance in Roman Catholicism constantly falls year by year.

There are like no new churches opening up at all, and churches are closed nonstop. In the Roman Catholic diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Lennon was infamous for how many churches he closed - he closed 30 churches, so much so that a priest committed schism with the RCC to keep his church open, and some parishioners actually got in contact with the Vatican to put a stop to it.

And this is not to mention the various heretical bishops (like Bishop Mahoney, Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Barron, who are all heretics) as well as the abundance of offensive liturgy (some going so far to be demonic in the Charismatic movement) which all cause people to lose faith when they see all of these contradictions, which only accentuates the process.

At least in Orthodox Christianity I'm constantly hearing news of Churches being opened in Western Europe and the United States, etc., and in the case of Russia, Orthodoxy is constantly growing.
LivenotoneviL,

It is an ad hominem, and thus a breach of forum rules, to refer to individuals as "heretics." Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

All the best,

Antonis
Section Moderator


Welp....shoot...my bad.

I generally try to avoid ad-hominem attacks, but I didn't realize that calling someone a "heretic" is forbidden.
Sorry!

The reason I called them this is because these bishops in particular have not only promoted homosexuality in the Roman church, but have taken part in LGBT parades, have participated in apathetic ecumenism, have attacked liturgy, have wasted millions of dollars on nontraditional architecture with pagan inspired rituals, and have even tried to put Lutheranism in a positive light - one even went so far as to call Martin Luther a "vessel of grace."

These were my reasons, which I see as heterodox - but it still isn't appropriate, so I apologize.
LivenotoneviL,

It is a breach of forum rules to address moderation within a thread, with PM being the proper form of communication. Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

 ;)

All the best,

Antonis
Section Moderator

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:28:26 PM by Antonis »
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #104 on: September 15, 2017, 11:40:52 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

Blind as a bat.

What are your objections to this "style" of iconography? I think a lot of 12th century and 13th century Roman iconography has a lot of influence from the East....and considering that, although inferior, many realistic Russian icons are used and allowed for veneration, how is this wrong?

Does the emphasis on the "color blue" stir the passions? (just pulling your leg by the way).

By the way, this icon comes from the "Beatus of Facundus," and they are paintings of the Apocalypse of John. These icons are pre-schism by the way.
https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Are you asking me? I think they're extraordinary and very appropriate and can't thank you enough for bringing them to our attention.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:41:14 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2017, 12:27:21 AM »
After all, this is an Orthodox echo chamber. People come here to get confirmation on what they are already convinced about.
Or they come here as they are on the verge of leaving the Catholic Church (like Sharbel), but still struggling somewhat,
and trying to gather more arguments, just to convince themselves.
This is simply untrue.  OCNet has provided a home for a huge number of Byzantine Catholics who were banned from Catholic Answers...
Abstracting @Lepanto arrogating to himself supernatural powers, his reaction and @Young Fogey's are typical: if you're not Latin Catholic, you'll have to convince him that you, an Eastern Catholic, are a Catholic at all.  Moreover, if you do not subscribe to the Latin theological traditions, many of which were turned into dogma, you definitely are not a Catholic. 

The street from the East to Rome is one way.  So, evidently, I feel more comfortable around other Eastern Christians who don't read me the riot act when I share the Eastern traditions of my Church, even if some of them are foreign to the Orthodox.

Every pope of living memory, from JXXIII to FI, have admitted that the greatest obstacle to union between Rome and the Orthodox Churches is the papacy.  Understood not as the primacy of Peter, but as the monarchy of the bishop of Rome.  Unfortunately, most card carrying Latin Catholics exhibit their Catholicism more on the card than on their hearts.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:27:57 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2017, 12:29:10 AM »
Of course the RCC is losing some members as the culture secularizes. Everyone is. Including us.
Every Christian Church (or church) is shrinking!  It should not surprise any Christian, much less brag about anecdotal or ineffective growth, as Our Lord said that, as His coming again nears, Faith would be hardly found (v. Lk 18:8 ).

It's not science, it's not politics, it's the abandon of a moral life that saps the Church of Christians.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:29:42 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2017, 11:05:16 AM »
@Sharbel: I think this is a misunderstanding. You don't have to prove to anyone that Eastern Catholic is at least just as Catholic as Roman. I would claim that your people often had to pay a much higher price for being in communion with the bishop of Rome than most in the West. Yet they remained true.
But you yourself wrote in several other threads - if I remember correctly - how you were disappointed with the current state of affairs in the Catholic church, and found yourself wondering whether the true Church could be the Orthodox after all. Correct me if I got it wrong.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2017, 11:58:06 AM »
@Sharbel: I think this is a misunderstanding. You don't have to prove to anyone that Eastern Catholic is at least just as Catholic as Roman. I would claim that your people often had to pay a much higher price for being in communion with the bishop of Rome than most in the West. Yet they remained true. But you yourself wrote in several other threads - if I remember correctly - how you were disappointed with the current state of affairs in the Catholic church, and found yourself wondering whether the true Church could be the Orthodox after all. Correct me if I got it wrong.
I'm not disillusioned with the Catholic Church, just tired of the Roman tyranny that stifles the Maronite Church of living her ancient traditions (though we ourselves are guilty of the same).  But, absent the Roman yoke, the Maronite Church is theologically, historically and geographically more kindred to the Orthodox Churches.

Perhaps, in my efforts to straddle my East and the tutelar West, I'm bridging this gap at a personal level.  If I cannot change the Roman Church to let the Maronite Church be fully Eastern, I came to realize that I can change this Maronite to be fully Eastern.

In the last year, I've found the faith of my infant baptism being nourished by Orthodoxy answering my deepest spiritual yearnings.  These yearnings, sewed largely by my Maronite Church but also by the Catholic Church, cannot be answered by the Roman Church or by the limits that she imposes on the Eastern Catholic Churches.  The faith of those seeds is the Catholic Faith of the Apostles and of the Church Fathers and I find it more clearly, more purely, more fully in Orthodoxy.  Surely, this same Faith can be found in its Latin articulation, but regrettably obfuscated by foreign accretions, which increased dramatically after the Great Schism, after Rome found itself unchecked by the other Patriarchs.  More problematically, it's more than intellectual obfuscation, because this Faith demands being lived out.  But how can it be lived out when arbitrary limits were imposed on it as a staple of vassalage? Fidelity to Rome means to de facto deny the traditions transmitted by my Church in favor of those of the Latin Church.  It means, as Winston of 1984 fame at last agreed, 2 + 2 = 5.

In short, I'm disappointed at the state of affairs of the Maronite Church after the price it's paid to be in communion with the Roman Church.  And if the union desired by the Lord between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches is not meant to happen in my lifetime, it can still happen in my life.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:02:30 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2017, 11:55:44 PM »
Sharbel, you've crossed a line, accusing me of Latin chauvinism, but my recent posts show that's not so: I don't do latinizations at the Ukrainian Catholic church I go to or in my icon corner (a prayer rule using only Orthodox forms), and I'm hip to various theological methods, such as Eastern ones, being different from each other but all good. Nor is imagining Orthodox Western rites that don't copy us much post-schism or copy the Byzantine Rite an example of that. Imagining a Western church that doesn't copy the East is no more bigoted than imagining an Eastern church that doesn't copy the West.

Getting down to business:

Quote
many of which were turned into dogma

In other words you don't accept our teachings (anymore); you don't want to be Catholic anymore. In this game, our teachings are merely "Latin."

Well, you've come to the right place. A few folks have walked out of the church here and in similar online fora.

Arguably it's better to leave us than stay and be a hypocrite, signed onto teachings you no longer believe, and/or stay and confuse the faithful by denying those teachings.

Your will be done, I guess.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2017, 12:18:34 AM »
Sharbel, you've crossed a line, accusing me of Latin chauvinism...
That's just your foggy imagination. :)

Quote from: The young fogey
Getting down to business:

Quote
many of which were turned into dogma
In other words you don't accept our teachings (anymore); you don't want to be Catholic anymore. In this game, our teachings are merely "Latin."
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, for instance, is merely Latin, as is its cause: the dogma that human nature became sinful since the Fall.  Both ideas are foreign to Eastern Christians, including the Catholic ones, finding no expression in our liturgies.

And your conclusion showing me the highway since I don't get the Latin way is yet another confirmation of life as an Eastern Catholic.  Let those who have ears hear it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 12:19:25 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2017, 08:15:41 AM »
@Sharbel: I think this is a misunderstanding. You don't have to prove to anyone that Eastern Catholic is at least just as Catholic as Roman. I would claim that your people often had to pay a much higher price for being in communion with the bishop of Rome than most in the West. Yet they remained true. But you yourself wrote in several other threads - if I remember correctly - how you were disappointed with the current state of affairs in the Catholic church, and found yourself wondering whether the true Church could be the Orthodox after all. Correct me if I got it wrong.
I'm not disillusioned with the Catholic Church, just tired of the Roman tyranny that stifles the Maronite Church of living her ancient traditions (though we ourselves are guilty of the same).  But, absent the Roman yoke, the Maronite Church is theologically, historically and geographically more kindred to the Orthodox Churches.

Perhaps, in my efforts to straddle my East and the tutelar West, I'm bridging this gap at a personal level.  If I cannot change the Roman Church to let the Maronite Church be fully Eastern, I came to realize that I can change this Maronite to be fully Eastern.

In the last year, I've found the faith of my infant baptism being nourished by Orthodoxy answering my deepest spiritual yearnings.  These yearnings, sewed largely by my Maronite Church but also by the Catholic Church, cannot be answered by the Roman Church or by the limits that she imposes on the Eastern Catholic Churches.  The faith of those seeds is the Catholic Faith of the Apostles and of the Church Fathers and I find it more clearly, more purely, more fully in Orthodoxy.  Surely, this same Faith can be found in its Latin articulation, but regrettably obfuscated by foreign accretions, which increased dramatically after the Great Schism, after Rome found itself unchecked by the other Patriarchs.  More problematically, it's more than intellectual obfuscation, because this Faith demands being lived out.  But how can it be lived out when arbitrary limits were imposed on it as a staple of vassalage? Fidelity to Rome means to de facto deny the traditions transmitted by my Church in favor of those of the Latin Church.  It means, as Winston of 1984 fame at last agreed, 2 + 2 = 5.

In short, I'm disappointed at the state of affairs of the Maronite Church after the price it's paid to be in communion with the Roman Church.  And if the union desired by the Lord between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches is not meant to happen in my lifetime, it can still happen in my life.

Sharbel, I'm gonna have to be that guy - but you know, both the Orthodox Church and the RCC both state that you cannot be a member of both churches "invisibly." You have to, at the end of the day, choose one or the other. The Orthodox Church says you have to accept all of the dogmas, otherwise you won't find salvation - and the Roman Catholic Church says you have to accept all the dogmas, otherwise you won't find salvation. Both churches have different dogmas, and the Maronite church requires acceptance of Roman dogmas.

Remember what Christ said?

"Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." (Matthew 12:25)

"No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24)

Discerning which is the True Church which Christ established is a hard, long, and time-consuming task, and I don't doubt the amount of pain you have gone through in your empirical and spiritual research - but at the end of the day, all you can do is try your hardest, pray A LOT, and have Faith in God above, and choose that Church.

I know you are in a unique situation because the Maronite liturgy is unique and the Maronite people have had a unique and terrible past (in terms of persecution) - but at the end of the day, you just have to have Faith and choose the Church.

I just don't think it is spiritually healthy to be a Maronite but have Orthodox beliefs.


Of course, there's the Antiochian Church with its beautiful Arabic Liturgy, and
Western Rite Orthodoxy is an option, and - while I don't personally recommend it myself as an Eastern Orthodox, because I'm not ENTIRELY sure if the Oriental churches have Grace or not (I hope so and think so) - the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is similar in liturgy to the Maronite Church, is an option (I wouldn't take that risk though).

I'll pray for you :)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 08:19:54 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2017, 03:28:09 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

It should be pointed out that if you look at the interior of a typical WRO parish, you will see these icons, and a traditional Rood Screen.   The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.  This means it is as Byzantinized as the Anglican Communion.

The Anglican Communion also increasingly uses Byzantine style icons, for example, there are several in the pillars in front of the altar in the apse of Westminster Abbey, at least four, but I believe eight, one on each side.  Or at least there were during the Royal Wedding.  Many Anglican parishes feature even more extensive Byzantine artwork.

Conversely, many Oriental Orthodox parishes use Western-style icons.  I was looking at pictures of icons uploaded in the Western Icons thread posted by Livetonoevil, and the first thing I thought was, "I've seen that in Oriental churches."

The icons that decorate the mitre of the Coptic Pope and the mitres of his Bishop, the icons that decorate the Bema in very many Armenian Orthodox churches, the icons decorating the mitre of the Ethiopian Patriarch, and most of the iconography in Syriac Orthodox Churches, period, are Western style.

For that matter, the Coptic Monastery of St. Anthony in Yermo, CA, features a Roman Catholic style statue of the Virgin Mary in front of the main Church of St. Anthony, although all of the icons inside the three churches at the main monastery (the tiny, ornate Church of St. Abanoub, the medium sized Church of St. Anthony, which has two or three altars and is used most frequently, and the massive Cathedral of St. Moses the Black) all feature Coptic icons.  Western and Byzantine icons along with a curtain featuring a Coptic icon of St. Paul the Hermit do appear in the Chapel of St. Paul the Hermit at Holy Resurrection Monastery, an attached monastery which serves as the main retreat house, and which used to be a Byzantine Catholic monastery, and before that, it was a Franciscan convent, so it also features beautiful gardens with a station of the cross, and a large outdoor amphitheatre for holding outdoor liturgies.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2017, 04:23:34 PM »

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

It should be pointed out that if you look at the interior of a typical WRO parish, you will see these icons, and a traditional Rood Screen.   The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.  This means it is as Byzantinized as the Anglican Communion.

The Anglican Communion also increasingly uses Byzantine style icons, for example, there are several in the pillars in front of the altar in the apse of Westminster Abbey, at least four, but I believe eight, one on each side.  Or at least there were during the Royal Wedding.  Many Anglican parishes feature even more extensive Byzantine artwork.

Conversely, many Oriental Orthodox parishes use Western-style icons.  I was looking at pictures of icons uploaded in the Western Icons thread posted by Livetonoevil, and the first thing I thought was, "I've seen that in Oriental churches."

The icons that decorate the mitre of the Coptic Pope and the mitres of his Bishop, the icons that decorate the Bema in very many Armenian Orthodox churches, the icons decorating the mitre of the Ethiopian Patriarch, and most of the iconography in Syriac Orthodox Churches, period, are Western style.

For that matter, the Coptic Monastery of St. Anthony in Yermo, CA, features a Roman Catholic style statue of the Virgin Mary in front of the main Church of St. Anthony, although all of the icons inside the three churches at the main monastery (the tiny, ornate Church of St. Abanoub, the medium sized Church of St. Anthony, which has two or three altars and is used most frequently, and the massive Cathedral of St. Moses the Black) all feature Coptic icons.  Western and Byzantine icons along with a curtain featuring a Coptic icon of St. Paul the Hermit do appear in the Chapel of St. Paul the Hermit at Holy Resurrection Monastery, an attached monastery which serves as the main retreat house, and which used to be a Byzantine Catholic monastery, and before that, it was a Franciscan convent, so it also features beautiful gardens with a station of the cross, and a large outdoor amphitheatre for holding outdoor liturgies.

I've also seen Byzantine icons inside of traditional Roman Catholic churches as well.



I've even been to a church (Holy Family Catholic Church) which had nuns selling Byzantine icons.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 04:31:47 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2017, 04:31:09 PM »
Was that a self-portrait?

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2017, 04:33:01 PM »
Was that a self-portrait?

Yeah, I wanted to get an image of this church - but I realized I accidentally posted the comment without typing anything, and as such, I rushed and took a screenshot of a YouTube video.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2017, 04:55:01 PM »
Pictures of virtually every WRO church show them mimicking the Byzantine Rite with those icons, lamps, etc., not using Western art such as Beatus de Facundus. The "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look. I get the point about Roman Rite Catholics and Anglicans using these things but you can tell it's not quite the imitation you see among WRO.

Quote
The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.

If your bishops agreed with John of Shanghai and San Francisco there wouldn't be any byzantinizations. There are Catholic churches that aren't latinized.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2017, 07:30:58 PM »
Pictures of virtually every WRO church show them mimicking the Byzantine Rite with those icons, lamps, etc., not using Western art such as Beatus de Facundus. The "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look. I get the point about Roman Rite Catholics and Anglicans using these things but you can tell it's not quite the imitation you see among WRO.

Quote
The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.

If your bishops agreed with John of Shanghai and San Francisco there wouldn't be any byzantinizations. There are Catholic churches that aren't latinized.

I'm sorry that Gothic and Romanesque icons and iconography aren't in high demand for Orthodox Christians to venerate....or even Roman Catholics. Not to mention that the idea of Western Rite Orthodoxy is highly, highly controversial for some conservative Orthodox members.

It's the reason why there is a schism with the Western Rite Orthodox Church of Paris - as soon as the Russian Orthodox Church tried to phase out Western Rite and replace it with Saint John Chrysostom, they broke communion with the Russian Orthodox Church and are now, tragically, a vangate church (can't some Church like Antioch just pick them up?). It's still very controversial for some bishops - and even within Western Orthodoxy itself there is a lot of controversy as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

For example, Antioch has adopted some post-schism practices of the Roman church - which, although not theologically incorrect, isn't like the pre-schism Western Church and is the product of heterodox theologians - while ROCOR has been much more strict on what is acceptable. For example, the six candles on the altar was a Counter Reformation innovation, which is completely acceptable within Antioch, but not within ROCOR - in fact, in ROCOR, it is forbidden. Another thing, for example, is Eucharistic adoration - something permitted in Antioch, but not allowed in ROCOR. The list goes on.

As soon as the Western Rite Orthodox Church bears a lot of fruit and spreads, I'm sure we can spend a lot of time making sure we have theologically acceptable pre-schism artwork (even though, for a major time period, a lot of Rome's artwork was basically copied from Byzantium - see the mosaics which I have posted in the Western Rite forum). But, as of now, we have to deal with the legitimization and spread of Western Orthodoxy first before we can deal with such nitpicking details that aren't as "perfect" and "ideal" as someone who has come across, without offense to you personally, quite apathetic to liturgy.

I mean, shouldn't you make sure that your own church has proper Roman artwork before going on a rant about how Western Rite Orthodoxy hasn't met your pristine standards?

We can't just buy post-Renaissance Catholic statues or Sacred Heart images or Corporeal Renaissance artwork and venerate them, especially with the latter categories.

And let me tell you something, Saint John of Shanghai wasn't anywhere near as apathetic in terms of Liturgy as you are. So don't put words in his mouth.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 07:40:04 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2017, 07:56:16 PM »
Quote
I'm sorry that Gothic and Romanesque icons and iconography aren't in high demand for Orthodox Christians to venerate....or even Roman Catholics.

I get it about "liturgical archaeology" trying to force dead forms on people but it's good art that deserves a revival and it fits WRO's stated principles perfectly. Here I'm not trying to bully someone in church acting in good faith, just presenting a "what if" scenario that's, yes, fair to the Orthodox.

Quote
Not to mention that the idea of Western Rite Orthodoxy is highly, highly controversial for some conservative Orthodox members.

The mirror of the latinization we're accused of but it seems more pervasive and powerful in Orthodoxy. (You know what I think: anti-Westernism is hardwired into Orthodoxy; John of Shanghai and San Francisco was wrong about Orthodoxy in this respect. So I'm not Orthodox.)

Quote
It's the reason why there is a schism with the Western Rite Orthodox Church of Paris - as soon as the Russian Orthodox Church tried to phase out Western Rite and replace it with Saint John Chrysostom, they broke communion with the Russian Orthodox Church and are now, tragically, a vangate church (can't some Church like Antioch just pick them up?). It's still very controversial for some bishops.

Almost a mirror of the Toth and Chornock splits in America except these were generations-old Byzantine Catholic communities and they never were vagantes. There were Rusyns who really thought our authorities were trying to phase out the Byzantine Rite in America (some of our churchmen wanted that but it has never been our policy) and thus were understandably upset. The split was our fault.

I've said and meant I'm very sorry the Byzantine Rite is declining in America and am sorry for the Toth and Chornock splits; I still participate in the rite, remembering 30 years ago when Eastern rites were the only Catholics in America still allowed to be traditional and remembering the born Orthodox I've known who lived and died in good faith.

Quote
As soon as the Western Rite Orthodox Church bears a lot of fruit and spreads...

It's had a century and a quarter; in the same period the Polish National Catholic Church in America has become a generational community (it's now not mostly ex-Catholics; it's fourth-generation members).

Quote
I mean, shouldn't you make sure that your own church has proper Roman artwork before going on a rant about how Western Rite Orthodoxy hasn't met your pristine standards?

Not really my standards but a hypothetical, based on WRO's stated principles.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 07:56:52 PM by The young fogey »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2017, 08:14:45 PM »
Discerning which is the True Church which Christ established is a hard, long, and time-consuming task, and I don't doubt the amount of pain you have gone through in your empirical and spiritual research - but at the end of the day, all you can do is try your hardest, pray A LOT, and have Faith in God above, and choose that Church.
I understand it very well that I have to make a choice. It is the Truth that is moving me to make a choice.  I struggle because I resist. I resist because I'm being taken where I don't want to go.  I don't want to go because I've been Catholic since infancy, staunchly so.

Quote from: LivenotoneviL
I know you are in a unique situation because the Maronite liturgy is unique and the Maronite people have had a unique and terrible past (in terms of persecution) - but at the end of the day, you just have to have Faith and choose the Church.

I just don't think it is spiritually healthy to be a Maronite but have Orthodox beliefs.
Keep in mind that the most particularly Western dogmas came about after the Great Schism.  Truly, in earnest only after the Counter Reformation.  However, the beliefs held by the Maronite Church until then were mostly shared with the Eastern Orthodox Church and they were echoed in our Liturgy of St. James.  Methinks that this was the reason why Rome ordered our liturgical volumes burned and our cherished liturgy replaced in toto by the Tridentine liturgy.  The Maronite Church born this wrong patiently, perhaps fearfully, and, generations later, thanks to God, Rome came to see its error and allowed the Maronites to celebrate our liturgy, which was not easy when the books had been burned and a long time had passed.  Slowly it was recovered, especially after a copy of the Maronite liturgical volumes was found in the Vatican Library.

However, as the Maronite Church recovered its liturgy, with its ancient beliefs coded into its text, it still contradicted the official line demanded by Rome.  The Maronite Church, which has been enduring persecution from Mohammedans and Romans alike for a millennium, chose to not make a big deal out of the inconsistencies between its ancient faith and the Roman faith.  Still, we the faithful are fed theologically firstly by the liturgy, so all it takes is a modicum of study to realize the contradictions imposed by the communion with Rome.  The Eastern Christian ethos and worship is mostly antitethical to the Western Christian ethos and worship, so the tension is real and the personal challenge not that uncommon.

Quote from: LivenotoneviL
I'll pray for you :)
Thank you for your irenic and brotherly reply and for your generous prayers.  Rest assured of mine too.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2017, 11:18:18 PM »
Oh boy...here we go....


Quote
I get it about "liturgical archaeology" trying to force dead forms on people but it's good art that deserves a revival and it fits WRO's stated principles perfectly. Here I'm not trying to bully someone in church acting in good faith, just presenting a "what if" scenario that's, yes, fair to the Orthodox.

We're back to square one once again.

The same argument can be made about all the Byzantine Catholic Churches, which literally copied and pasted the Orthodox Liturgical Tradition as it changed over time, while modifying a few things here and there (to fit Orthodox theology). In the Roman church, all the Byzantine Catholic Churches were a dead liturgy until- unlike the Western Rite Orthodox Church - for the most part - for purely political pressure many Byzantine Catholic Churches were ripped apart from the Orthodox Church. The same with literally every Roman Catholic - equivalent liturgy you guys have with all of the Oriental Orthodox Churches - the Armenian Catholic Church, the Ethiopian Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, etc.

Sure, they had sacraments, but anybody who practiced any of these liturgies before they became part of the Roman church committed a mortal sin.

All of these church traditions, from the Roman Catholic perspective, were literally dead, as they weren't allowed to be practiced. But they were just copied and pasted with little modification, with obviously some theological modification, but most of this was done due to political pressure, grabbing chunks of already existing churches and making it a part of Rome, just to get power - not out of a genuine historical and cultural interest.

But considering that the Western Orthodox Church IS done out of a cultural and historical interest, and we aren't literally taking a piece of the Roman church's hierarchy away from you guys, I don't see how you can attack our idea for something that was beautiful and a part of the Orthodox Church for 1000 years, when you guys did it on a much worse scale.

If someone truly wants to accept Roman dogmas like Papal Infallibility, Papal Supremacy, the Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, etc. while following an Orthodox liturgical tradition, then that's their business. I don't have a problem with the liturgy they prefer, and I hope they do their research on the history of the Papacy and pray to find the Orthodox Church.
And I can't tell you the amount of times during this journey to Orthodoxy I've had people say "Why not just join a Byzantine Catholic Church?"

I have no problem with these churches as entities now - in fact, I would (subjectively) hate it as a matter of fact if these (Eastern) churches were removed out of "ecumenism," and we were forced to remove Western Orthodox Churches. I think God would get upset at both of our churches' apathy towards Faith and legitimate dialogue, with a taste of religious indifferentism (considering that I don't believe legitimate union will ever occur unless one church's faith becomes watered down, and if that happens, then it is dangerous for those members to become a part of the stronger faith, because we will get a bunch of indifferent people who don't really care about dogma and will try to change things even further).

But anyways, just don't have your double standards - don't act like that actions which currently occur in the majority of Novus Ordo masses which were once seen as scandalous (such as communion in the hand, Eucharistic ministers, contemporary music, and contemporary Liberal art) are not a big deal and the liturgy doesn't matter too much, then all of sudden analyze Western Rite Orthodoxy from point A to point B and write an essay about how offensive to your eyes it is to have Byzantine styled icons (which was, pre-schism and post-schism, and still is a part of Roman liturgical tradition).

It's Pharasaical.

Quote
The mirror of the latinization we're accused of but it seems more pervasive and powerful in Orthodoxy. (You know what I think: anti-Westernism is hardwired into Orthodoxy; John of Shanghai and San Francisco was wrong about Orthodoxy in this respect. So I'm not Orthodox.)

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.
And, I was ignorant - they were excommunicated over canonical issues, not Western liturgy.
I'd trust the words of a Saint more than some older priest on the internet who complains about how everyone is worse than him in terms of liturgy.

Quote

Almost a mirror of the Toth and Chornock splits in America except these were generations-old Byzantine Catholic communities and they never were vagantes. There were Rusyns who really thought our authorities were trying to phase out the Byzantine Rite in America (some of our churchmen wanted that but it has never been our policy) and thus were understandably upset. The split was our fault.

I've said and meant I'm very sorry the Byzantine Rite is declining in America and am sorry for the Toth and Chornock splits; I still participate in the rite, remembering 30 years ago when Eastern rites were the only Catholics in America still allowed to be traditional and remembering the born Orthodox I've known who lived and died in good faith.

I stand corrected; I was wrong - the Western Orthodox Church of France split because they were disobeying the authority of the Orthodox Church. There were canonical irregularities, and apparently, the head bishop was involved with a scandalous affair - which led to a bunch of schismatics from that church, said schismatics who are in communion with Serbia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_France

My bad  :-[

Quote
It's had a century and a quarter; in the same period the Polish National Catholic Church in America has become a generational community (it's now not mostly ex-Catholics; it's fourth-generation members).

Well, could you imagine how strong the Byzantine Catholic Churches would be if Rome was run by a communist government?
The Western Orthodox Churches were growing significantly under ROCOR, but it was put on halt when the October Revolution occurred.
Now they are growing again.

Plus, there's only 300,000,000 Orthodox Church members in the world (as of today); there have been Western Orthodox communities that have grown, they aren't as visible due to being of a smaller quantity. It's growing surely but slowly though.

Compare that to the 1.3 billion Roman Catholics.

Quote
Not really my standards but a hypothetical, based on WRO's stated principles.

They are your standards, because if they weren't your standards, you wouldn't be complaining.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 11:27:42 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2017, 05:47:21 AM »
We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

And Roman Catholic doctrine, according to St. Mark of Ephesus and other Orthodox saints, is considered heresy from an Orthodox point of view. This is the real problem we have with Rome. You say all our formalised doctrine is true. But we say significant parts of Rome's formalised doctrine are heretic.

I hope I am not insulting anyone personally here, neither do I wish to break forum rules, but I believe anyone affirming Roman Catholic doctrine, from layperson to Pope, must repent and return to the Truth. Re-establishing communion with Rome would require them to officially adopt the Orthodox doctrine first.

(And honestly, I am sceptical about a potential "Western expression" of that doctrine. The expression of Orthodox doctrine by people such as Metr. Kallistos Ware are Western enough for me. What we surely do not need within Orthodoxy is any kind of doublespeak).

Offline juliogb

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2017, 07:45:46 AM »
This ''byzantine x western'' art debate seems senseless to me, what we call ''byzantine art'' today was like the normal kind of art you would see in christian churches both in east and west. Some examples bellow.


Apse mosaic of the Basilica of San Clemente al Laterano in Rome.



Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome.



Church of Santi Cosma i Damiano, Rome.


Aachen Cathedral, Germany.


Pisa Cathedral

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2017, 10:10:52 AM »
There are Eastern Catholics who are entirely unlatinized.
Being familiar with about half of the Eastern Catholic Churches, I feel inclined to infer that this is hard to believe.

From my experience with Maronite and Ukrainian Catholic Churches, I agree.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2017, 10:11:25 AM »
This ''byzantine x western'' art debate seems senseless to me, what we call ''byzantine art'' today was like the normal kind of art you would see in christian churches both in east and west. Some examples bellow.


Apse mosaic of the Basilica of San Clemente al Laterano in Rome.



Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome.



Church of Santi Cosma i Damiano, Rome.


Aachen Cathedral, Germany.


Pisa Cathedral



You should post these in the Western Rite forum.

Although I'm kind of perplexed by the 13 lambs in Santa Maria... Christ being the Lamb of God was Christ being the ultimate sacrifice, a sacrificial lamb...and Christ is also the Good Shepherd, with the Apostles being sheep I guess...and shepherds (end of John).

Although I don't think both Christ as a Lamb and the Apostles as sheep fits together as a single parable...you can't just blend together parables like that.

What is the meaning of those mosaics? Is it insinuating that the Apostles were also sacrificial lambs (then what about John?) If it's the Shepherd and His sheep, why is Christ a sheep?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:22:31 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2017, 11:19:34 AM »
Pictures of virtually every WRO church show them mimicking the Byzantine Rite with those icons, lamps, etc., not using Western art such as Beatus de Facundus. The "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look. I get the point about Roman Rite Catholics and Anglicans using these things but you can tell it's not quite the imitation you see among WRO.

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The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.

If your bishops agreed with John of Shanghai and San Francisco there wouldn't be any byzantinizations. There are Catholic churches that aren't latinized.

Callimg the use of leavened bread and the epiklesis Byzantinizations is grossly inaccurate.  In the Eastern Orthodox Church, these are held to be dogmatic.   Just like the ban on the filioque.

Do you expect we would allow the filioque in the WRO churches?  Because if we did they would not be Orthodox.  The Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church agreed in order to resolve the Photian Schism that St. Photius was right and the filioque had to go.  80 years later Rome changed its mind, and this was a major contributor to the "cold war conditions" that ultimately led to the Great Schism rolling in starting in 1054.

Another doctrinal dispute, which was also a sticking point at Florence and a rallying call used by St. Mark of Ephesus, was the use of unleavened bread.  The EOs believe only leavened bread is canonical and appropriate, for a host of reasons.  Of the OOs, only the Armenians use unleavened bread; they also used unleavened bread before Rome ever did, and this fact probably contributed to the schism between them and the Syriac Orthodox Church which has since been resolved.


From an OO perspective,  I consider the Armenian use of unleavened bread to be acceptable only as an act of oikonomia to maintain the unity of the OO communion and as a concession to Armenian culture, as Armenians cuatomarily eat unleavened bread like lavash, in massive quantities.  Its a bit like how we put up with the Armenian Madhab or the Ethiopian insistence on circumcision (since the Ethiopian Orthodox are Jewish Christians and interpret St. Paul as meaning they have to keep the law, in part, whereas the Copts and Syriacs, despite the latter also being largely of Jewish descent, perhaps more Jewish than the Ethiopians, hold to a more liberal interpretation, although OO boys are customarily circumcised).

The OO and EO both agree that the Words of Institution do not consecrate.  Thus, the insertion of an Epiklesis is absolutely required.  What is more, it was the West that first thought as much: the Scottish Non Juring Episcopalians decided an Epiklesis was required, and during their unsuccessful attempt, thwarted by distance and the British government, to become Eastern Orthodox, they inserted an epiklesis into the Holy Communion service.  And because they ordained the American Anglican Bishop Seabury, from whom the other American Anglican bishops got their apostolic succession, amd which is also a major reason why the American province became known as the Protestant Episcopal Church and not something like the "Anglican Church in North America" (the name amusingly selected by the group which has broken from the ECUSA and the ACC in schism over gay marriage, which is itself a collection of smaller jurisdictions ranging from the old 19th century Reformed Episcopal Church to various high church jurisdictions, and former Episcopal dioceses that managed to breakaway entire, for example, I think the Diocese of South Carolina).   

Thus, the Episcopal Church, USA and its successors, except for the Reformed Episcopal Church, which is ultra low church and Calvinist, have always used an Epiklesis.   Even today, all seven Anaphorae in the three rites available in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer have an Epiklesis.

It was to Anglo Catholics St. John was speaking, and he was speaking in the context of historic negotiations between the ECUSA and the Russian Orthodox Church, which produced the report of St. Tikhon on the revisions neccessary for the BCP to be used in an Orthodox setting, and there was a failed attempt led by the high churchmen of the Episcopal Church to unite with the Russian Orthodox, which was sabotaged by the low church, evangelical faction. 

So that is what is to be understood as the "West" St. John was referring to: a group mostly using the BCP, sometimes using the English Missal, of Episcopalian Anglo Catholics, who believed in the importance of the epkilesis as the moment of consecration.

And before you criticize us for having modified the Tridentine mass to make it compatible with Orthodox doctrine, your own church did the same thing to the Anglican liturgy when creating the new Ordinariates.   In fact, there is no Rite in the Episcopal Church as thoroughly Latinized as the Anglican Rite, by your definition.  Of course, you would say you were merely correcting doctrinal errors in the Anglican prayer books, and we are saying the same thing.

Also, your own church historically did Latinize the Byzantine Rite of the Ruthenians, the East Syriac and Oriental Orthodox Rites (because they accused us, and the Assyrians, of heresy), and the Maronite Rite.    These Latinizations have been reduced since Vatican II but not eliminated; the anaphorae that lack the Words of Institution have not, for example, been restored to the Syriac Catholic Church, nor have devotions like the Novena and the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament native to the West Syriac Rite been removed.  The Syriac Catholic Church, unlike the Malankara Catholic Church, even uses Latin Rite vestments!  In fact, they look like Roman clergy from the 1950s.  The Malankara Catholic Church does use the beautiful vestments of the Syriac Orthodox Church, the colorful, exquisite designs of tailors like Pulickal Brothers, but is also Latinized; I have seen photos of beautifully vested priests of the Malankara Catholic Church celebrating versus populum in a rather Art Nouveau lookimg Cathedral, that came across as looking a bit like what Hector Guimard or Gaudi might have designed, if high on absinthe and opium (which btw, I doubt either used, I simply mean, had heir abilities been degrqded), and on an Orientalist flight of fancy.

Versus Populum is by the way the ultimate Romanization; due to the architecture of several Roman churches built atop the graves of holy martyrs, there is a dip in front of the altar called the Confessio, designed to allow the faithful to get as close as possible to the tombs of St. Peter and other heroic saints killed in the Imperial capital.  It was taken up by the Church of South India which resulted from the merger of all of the mainline Protestant churches after Indian independence, in addition to the use of a BCP which quoted slightly our Syriac Orthodox liturgy, and from that, your church got the idea to use versus populum everywhere, thus Romanizing the Ambrosian Rite, and Romanizing the Maronite, Chaldean and other Rites, even some Melkite parishes.

~

So in conclusion, you have to draw a distinction between cultural imperialism and dogmatic correction.  The Epiklesis and leavened bread are added to the Western Rite liturgy, and the Filioque is removed, because we believe this to be dogmatic.  If this is cultural Imperialism, where do you draw the line?   Your Byzantine churches commemorate the Pope of Rome, including in some litanies where the Patriarch of the local church is himself not normally commemorated aloud, outside the diptychs.  I am not going to accuse them of Romanizing over that gesture, and neither will I classify dogmatic corrections in the Western Rite Orthodox churches as being Byzantinzations.

There is also a realm of local uses which can be permitted via oikonomia, which are non-standard.  Some condescending Catholic and Orthodox bishops view the entire Eastern and Western rites of these churches as a massive exercise in Oikonomia, the pure Roman or Byzantine Rites being the superior, natural and normative liturgy, the default for all missionary activity.  Certainly the Tridentine condescension to allow Western Rites more than 200 years old, namely, the Mozarabic, Bragan, Ambrosian, Lyonaise and the uses of the Dominican Friars, Carmelite monks and the Benedictine breviary, has the flavour of oikonomia.  I myself would prefer to regard, with profuse apologies to our Armenian members, who I regard as fully and entirely Orthodox, and also who I love dearly, having grown up with an Armenian family as the best friends of our family, the use of unleavened bread and straight wine in the Armenian church, as being, from the perspective of the other three churches, Oikonomia, but lest the Armenians take offense, I would also propose that at least some Armenian bishops view our departures from their rite as Oikonomia.  And given that the Armenians control and organize the Oriental Orthodox presence in Jerusalem, albeit subject to the Status Quo, and are the principle "fighting force" I suppose to defend our altars from the kind of brawl that occasionally and shamefully erupts with the Greeks (but even more shamefully, between our own Copts and Ethiopians on one recent occasion), perhaps their view is correct and unleavened bread is normative Oriental Orthodoxy, at least in Jerusalem.   Although numbers wise, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which also has some points of striking contrast with the Copts, Syriacs and Armenians, is surely the normative Oo church, given there are more Ethiopian Orthodox than the combined total of everyone else, amd given that the average baptized Ethiopian probably spends more time in church standing in prayer than the combined total of ten baptized members of each of the other three OO churches, owing to the maximal piety of the Ethiopians, a devotion incomparable.

A strong argument could be made on the basis of pure merit that if we are to convert people from one rite to another, we should have everyone pray using the Ethiopian Rite, or at the very least, "Ethiopianize" everyone elses rites.  Because I can think of no contemporary Christians who have endured more suffering, persecution and been more tried in the fire, and who pray longer and more fervently, than the Ethiopians.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #126 on: September 18, 2017, 12:09:59 PM »
Of the OOs, only the Armenians use unleavened bread; they also used unleavened bread before Rome ever did, and this fact probably contributed to the schism between them and the Syriac Orthodox Church which has since been resolved.

AFAIK, it wasn't a contributing factor, but an ex post facto polemical justification. 

Quote
From an OO perspective,  I consider the Armenian use of unleavened bread to be acceptable only as an act of oikonomia to maintain the unity of the OO communion and as a concession to Armenian culture, as Armenians cuatomarily eat unleavened bread like lavash, in massive quantities. 

We, Armenians and non-Armenian God-fearers who commune regularly among them, are so grateful--tickled pink, really, like the flesh of our animal sacrifices which you also tolerate--that your gracious and much-renowned magnanimity, O Alpha60, allows us to receive Jesus in spite of a lack of yeast. 

You have a habit of finding yourself in some mood and then posting long screeds full of blithering nonsensical claims and then use words like "dogmatic" to lend them authority.  Discern what those moods are so that when you are in them or feel them coming, you can be wise enough not to post here until they pass.  None of us wants to sift through abominable claim after abominable claim in order to set the record straight for the sake of innocent people who might be misled.  Seriously, just stop.

Quote
I have seen photos of beautifully vested priests of the Malankara Catholic Church celebrating versus populum in a rather Art Nouveau lookimg Cathedral, that came across as looking a bit like what Hector Guimard or Gaudi might have designed, if high on absinthe and opium (which btw, I doubt either used, I simply mean, had heir abilities been degrqded), and on an Orientalist flight of fancy.

Produce the photos. 

Quote
I myself would prefer to regard, with profuse apologies to our Armenian members, who I regard as fully and entirely Orthodox, and also who I love dearly, having grown up with an Armenian family as the best friends of our family, the use of unleavened bread and straight wine in the Armenian church, as being, from the perspective of the other three churches, Oikonomia, but lest the Armenians take offense, I would also propose that at least some Armenian bishops view our departures from their rite as Oikonomia.

Just leave them alone.  They have shed their blood for generation upon generation for something you often come across as regarding as a hobby.  And all on the strength of unleavened Eucharist. 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:10:55 PM by Mor Ephrem »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #127 on: September 18, 2017, 12:25:15 PM »
As I recall, when St. Photius was trying to smooth over relations with the Pope (before the council of 869) he mentioned the leavened/unleavened difference as an example of how local practices could differ and shouldn't be points of division (he was trying to justify his quick elevation from layman to bishop). Didn't seem to consider it dogmatic at the time...

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #128 on: September 18, 2017, 02:04:47 PM »
Of the OOs, only the Armenians use unleavened bread; they also used unleavened bread before Rome ever did, and this fact probably contributed to the schism between them and the Syriac Orthodox Church which has since been resolved.

AFAIK, it wasn't a contributing factor, but an ex post facto polemical justification. 

Quote
From an OO perspective,  I consider the Armenian use of unleavened bread to be acceptable only as an act of oikonomia to maintain the unity of the OO communion and as a concession to Armenian culture, as Armenians cuatomarily eat unleavened bread like lavash, in massive quantities. 

We, Armenians and non-Armenian God-fearers who commune regularly among them, are so grateful--tickled pink, really, like the flesh of our animal sacrifices which you also tolerate--that your gracious and much-renowned magnanimity, O Alpha60, allows us to receive Jesus in spite of a lack of yeast. 

You have a habit of finding yourself in some mood and then posting long screeds full of blithering nonsensical claims and then use words like "dogmatic" to lend them authority.  Discern what those moods are so that when you are in them or feel them coming, you can be wise enough not to post here until they pass.  None of us wants to sift through abominable claim after abominable claim in order to set the record straight for the sake of innocent people who might be misled.  Seriously, just stop.

Quote
I have seen photos of beautifully vested priests of the Malankara Catholic Church celebrating versus populum in a rather Art Nouveau lookimg Cathedral, that came across as looking a bit like what Hector Guimard or Gaudi might have designed, if high on absinthe and opium (which btw, I doubt either used, I simply mean, had heir abilities been degrqded), and on an Orientalist flight of fancy.

Produce the photos. 

Quote
I myself would prefer to regard, with profuse apologies to our Armenian members, who I regard as fully and entirely Orthodox, and also who I love dearly, having grown up with an Armenian family as the best friends of our family, the use of unleavened bread and straight wine in the Armenian church, as being, from the perspective of the other three churches, Oikonomia, but lest the Armenians take offense, I would also propose that at least some Armenian bishops view our departures from their rite as Oikonomia.

Just leave them alone.  They have shed their blood for generation upon generation for something you often come across as regarding as a hobby.  And all on the strength of unleavened Eucharist.

Let me apologize: that post was pretty much a failtrain.  My remarks concerning the Armenians were actually intended to be a bit of an oblique satire of the excesses of dogmatic variation that occur in the Roman Catholic Church, how they apparently venerate both St. Cyril and Nestorius.  Which is why I deliberately contradicted myself.

What I should have said is simply that the EO and OO have almost always insisted that the removal of the filioque and the use of an epiklesis are dogmatic, that the epiklesis is consecratory, and not the instittion narrative.  Thus, these can be said to be dogmatic requirements of the liturgy.  The EO have also occasionally dogmatized and written fierce polemics regarding unleavened bread, which the OO have not.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #129 on: September 18, 2017, 04:11:40 PM »
Let me also clarify that I regard !he Armenian Eucharist as completely, perfectly valid and normative, and I also consider it to be highly likely that the Roman Catholic church has a valid Eucharist, at least in some dioceses and under some conditions, if not entirely, on which point I should stress the latter view is at odds with most Orthodox theologians and is not our official teaching.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #130 on: September 18, 2017, 08:25:15 PM »
The EO have also occasionally dogmatized and written fierce polemics regarding unleavened bread, which the OO have not.

Varghese, B., tr.  Dionysius Bar Salibi: Commentary on the Eucharist (1998: SEERI, Kottayam), pp. 30-31.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #131 on: September 18, 2017, 08:26:08 PM »
Let me also clarify that I regard !he Armenian Eucharist as completely, perfectly valid and normative, and I also consider it to be highly likely that the Roman Catholic church has a valid Eucharist, at least in some dioceses and under some conditions, if not entirely, on which point I should stress the latter view is at odds with most Orthodox theologians and is not our official teaching.

No one really cares if you think the RC Eucharist is valid, but you shouldn't be so quick to call into question your own. 

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #132 on: September 18, 2017, 09:03:20 PM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

For Chaldeans celebrating versus populum, I have a YouTube video here: https://youtu.be/mCIUbrgw1y8

There is a -lot- of Latinization in that parish, in the statues of the Theotokos et cetera.

In blissful contrast however, look at this Chaldean Catholic parish in Toronto, where the Anaphora is said Ad Orientem: https://youtu.be/GB9RrVaj-jg

Compare with this decidedly inferior Assyrian Christmas raza (mystery, the preferred Assyrian term for what we would call the Qurbana Qadisha or more commonly, Qurbono Qadisho , meaning Holy Sacrifice, in the Syriac Orthodox Church):

https://youtu.be/hppltw1PuJM

I think the Chaldeans did a much better job: the historic use of cymbals was preserved; the singing was otherwise a capella with no annoying electronic organ, and especially, without the inane touchy-feely new age synthesized piano accompaniement to communion, despite the presence of minor Latinizations like the sacring bells, unleavened bread and Western mitre and crosier vs. the Shashta (the cap of the bishops of the Assyrian church; it has another name as well; in the Chaldean Church only the Patriarch of Babylon wore a simiiar cap, called a shash, but infuriatingly, the newly elected Patriarch is refusing to wear one "in the spirit of Pope Francis" "to avoid creating a barrier between myself and the people."

Hopefully the new Patriarch of Babylon will not ruin the absolute liturgical excellence we see in this Chaldean parish, but move the Chaldean church as a whole away from the Latinized lameness of the first video I linked to, and in the direction of this parish, and perhaps do away with the more annoying latinizations, like the sacring bell (which clashes cacophonically with the cymbal-accompanied music).

I think it possible the Chaldean use of the cymbals was once normative throughout the Assyrian church, but lost due to extreme poverty and the genocide.  I also have a recording of Syriac Catholics using cymbals.  I would assume however Mor that there is no historical record or use of them among the Syro-Malabar Catholics or the Orthodox in India?  I haven't seen any suggestion of it; I think its a Levantine thing.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #133 on: September 18, 2017, 09:15:59 PM »
Let me also clarify that I regard !he Armenian Eucharist as completely, perfectly valid and normative, and I also consider it to be highly likely that the Roman Catholic church has a valid Eucharist, at least in some dioceses and under some conditions, if not entirely, on which point I should stress the latter view is at odds with most Orthodox theologians and is not our official teaching.

No one really cares if you think the RC Eucharist is valid, but you shouldn't be so quick to call into question your own.

Just to be clear, it was not my intent to call into question the validity of my own, in any respect.  The OO Eucharist and the EO Eucharist I am certain are valid.  As explained above, my comments on the use of leavened bread or unleavened bread as normative Oriental Orthodoxy vs. Oikonomia was a completely failed attempt, in retrospect also tasteless, or in bad taste, to satirically criticize the Roman Catholics for their extreme equivocation on the Filioque, on leavned vs. unleavened bread, and on allowning Syro-Malabar and Chaldean Catholics to venerate Nestorius, while simultaneously venerating St. Cyril, especially in the Coptic, Ethiopian and Syriac Catholic churches.

Yet, to my knowledge, despite Rome allowing Nestorius to be venerated, they continue to regard our Saints Dioscorus, Severus, Jacob of Sarugh, Peter the Fuller, Jacob Bar Addai, and others, as anathema, in fact, in the case of St. Dioscorus and Peter the Fuller, Pope Gelasius I in the Gelasian Sacramentary I posted a link to in Religious Topics dared to declare them inextricably anathematized and damned to Hell forever, which I believe is a violation of Scholastic and contemporary Roman theology on the nature of what an anathema is (that is to say, the Catholic Encyclopedia and more recent Roman documents on excommunication that I have read indicate there is no way the Church can, without leaving the door open to repentance, completely and permanently damn you, so that even if you do repent your sins will still be retained rather than forgiven).  Perhaps the importance of the Pope Leo narrative is the reason for this, or perhaps the RCC managed to convince the Oriental Catholics that Miaphysitism == bad and Chalcedon == good, so there is no desire among these churches to avail themselves of the freedom granted to the Chaldeans and Syro Malabar to embrace Miaphysitism and the Oriental Orthodox saints.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #134 on: September 18, 2017, 09:18:56 PM »
The EO have also occasionally dogmatized and written fierce polemics regarding unleavened bread, which the OO have not.

Varghese, B., tr.  Dionysius Bar Salibi: Commentary on the Eucharist (1998: SEERI, Kottayam), pp. 30-31.

Oh shap; I have read that, actually, or at least a summary of what it contains, but I forgot.  It was from that text summarizing St. Bar Salibi that first learned of the Syro-Armenian schism.

What ultimately caused the schism, and what led to its reconciliation?  I will post a thread asking that in the OO forum.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.