Author Topic: Dis-illusionment and letting go  (Read 5823 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #135 on: September 18, 2017, 09:27:19 PM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

I wouldn't have risked encouraging you if I wasn't interested.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #136 on: September 18, 2017, 10:01:13 PM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

I wouldn't have risked encouraging you if I wasn't interested.

Ok, I'll hunt it down.  This is going to take some digging, and I'll have to upload it to Mediawiki (I think its where I found it).
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2017, 12:49:43 AM »
Alpha60,

One question please: Is receiving communion sub una (i.e. only the body, not the blood) an authentic Chaldean practice, or a Latinisation?

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2017, 02:01:38 PM »
quote author=Gorazd link=topic=72306.msg1484895#msg1484895 date=1505796583]
Alpha60,

One question please: Is receiving communion sub una (i.e. only the body, not the blood) an authentic Chaldean practice, or a Latinisation?
[/quote]

I think receiving sub una is a legitimate Assyrian praxis, at least at present, based on personal experience, for reasons of pastoral care and provided the bread has been intincted.  In my history of the Assyrian church from the time of the Turkish genocide, I have also read that in its poverty the church faced severe wine shortages, and was using wine watered down to an extreme extent in the Eucharistic liturgy.  Here is my experience receiving communion sub una in the Assyrian church before I became Orthodox:

When I was Episcopalian during my Methodist-Orthodox transitional phase I took communion at St. Mary's Assyrian Church of the East.  The most beautiful service we attended was evening prayer followed by a Raza during the start of the Rogation of the Ninevites.  I had hoped to visit a Syriac Orthodox church for the Eucharist served at the end, and a Coptic church in the middle, but was unwell, and my mother was even more so; this was when my father's health was really starting to get bad and he had a bad episode of pneumonia which my wicked half sisters contrived with the nursing home to conceal from us; fortunately he recovered and he and I spoke again and had a wonderful conversation.

Because my mother was so feeble, the priest, Chorepiscopus George, who is a very dear friend even today, even though I did not join his church but went the Syriac Orthodox route, told us that because he had already dipped the body in the blood during the anaphora, or hallowing, in Assyrian terminology,, there was no need for us to stand in a separate line for one of the two deacons providing the shared chalice (Assyrians drink straight from the chalice these days; I believe we also received communion in the hand, quite large pieces of bread, too, delicious bread, rivalled only by the blessed Coptic antidoron for Flavor.  I don't know if the Assyrian Eucharist is real or not; I did not see the very specific evidence that convinced me that the Roman Eucharist even in one species is valid, so all I can do is comment on its flavour compared to our antidoron or blessed bread; it is my experience that among other things, a true Eucharist posesses a heavenly flavour and will never upset the stomach unless consumed unworthily; the Assyrian bread certainly posesses a delicious flavour, but I never experienced a miraculous healing which has, on extremely rare occasions, happened when partaking of the Orthodox liturgy.   However, I only took communion there two or three times before deciding I preferred the Orthodox, and set my mind on Syriac Orthodoxy owing to my love for the very pleasant, loving, and horribly persecuted people of the Syriac and Assyrian ethnic groups; I loved the Assyrian music, but the Syriac Orthodox music was the most beautiful I had ever heard.

Also, there were some more pressing issues: icons, the Christology, theopaschitism, and so on.

I've written out a complete and very personal account of my encounter with the Assyrian Church and my 15 year journey to Syriac Orthodoxy and the Orthodox CHurch as a whole, and the spiritual experiences which led me this way, as well as what I hope and pray will happen to allow the Assyrian church, which did give us St. Isaac the Syrian, to throw off the shackles of Nestorianism and creeping iconoclasm-in-practice (and contrary to their own canons), and enter into communion with the Oriental church.  I feel the Church of the East must restore communion with the Syriacs, Copts, Armenians and Ethiopians first, because otherwise, if it instead enters into communion with the Romans or the Eastern Orthodox,  that would ruin the prospects of an ecumenical reconciiation between our communions.  Of course, before anything else, the schism between the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East needs to end, so that there is one unified Church of the East, because otherwise the needed liturgical repairs and restorations in the Assyrian church and the dumping of Nestorius as a venerated saint would just cause large numbers of people to abandon it and join the Ancient church; if the two churches are merged, any schismatic breakaway group would be forced to start afresh and would likely be smaller.   

I might post this in the OO forum once I have redacted it, or in Convert Issues as a history of my conversion; in the interim, if anyone wants to know what caused me to go to the Church of the East while transitioning from Methodism to Orthodoxy, PM me and I will send you my story.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline WPM

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2017, 04:29:28 PM »
Probably dis-illusioned with the Devil.
Learn meditation.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2017, 05:16:19 PM »
the Assyrian church, which did give us St. Isaac the Syrian

Isn't that controversial? St. Paisios strongly denied this claim.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #141 on: September 19, 2017, 07:18:23 PM »
In another thread one of the many converts in this forum was being kind saying that losing your faith in your birth church and in God as it understands him is painful. I just wanted to say I've done that. I was born Episcopal, so before I became Catholic I had to be shocked by the reality of Episcopalianism and let go of a vision of it I had really believed in. (I really wanted Catholicism; Episcopalianism is at heart Protestant.) So my non-acceptance of Orthodoxy isn't based on a reluctance to let go.

Your non acceptance of orthodoxy is a lack of faith in God.

As I said romanians catholics and orthodox asked God which Church is true and God responded that Orthodox. So the o[pinion of God is that Orthodox is true Church.

Your opinion is that Catholicism is best Church.

So you have more faith in your opinion than in Gods opinion.
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Offline biro

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2017, 07:22:03 PM »
In regards to your second paragraph: where did you get this stuff?!
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2017, 07:29:21 PM »
the Assyrian church, which did give us St. Isaac the Syrian

Isn't that controversial? St. Paisios strongly denied this claim.
what other historical facts was St Paisios strongly denying?
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2017, 07:48:56 PM »
Why the Liturgy has to be pleasant to you? If it is pleasant to God this is what it matters.

Anyhow we get life and eternal life from Holy Liturgy and this is what it matters. I am romanian that is western blood and eastern culture and I don't see the need for western style Liturgy. I am not against it if it brings forth life and eternal life.

For me oif God is happy with Holy Lityurgy being it in arabic or hindu I cannot be more happier. And if I getr life and eternal life that is super.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #145 on: October 01, 2017, 11:14:45 AM »
As I recall, when St. Photius was trying to smooth over relations with the Pope (before the council of 869) he mentioned the leavened/unleavened difference as an example of how local practices could differ and shouldn't be points of division (he was trying to justify his quick elevation from layman to bishop). Didn't seem to consider it dogmatic at the time...

Just to add something maybe more interesting, the following paper covers, among other things, the history of some of the differences (including the azymes issue):

Byzatine Perceptions of Latin Religious Errors

The emphasis is not on 'Latin Religious Errors' but rather 'Byzantine Perceptions'; and so for example it argues that Catholicism sometimes served as the public face for problems only after they became contentious among EOs/OOs.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #146 on: October 01, 2017, 01:10:53 PM »
The emphasis is not on 'Latin Religious Errors' but rather 'Byzantine Perceptions'; and so for example it argues that Catholicism sometimes served as the public face for problems only after they became contentious among EOs/OOs.

 ;)
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #147 on: October 02, 2017, 02:04:37 AM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

I wouldn't have risked encouraging you if I wasn't interested.

I havent had a chance to find it yet, but I havent forgotten about this.  My mother is in an unexpected amount of pain after the removal of the squamous cell and I am a bit unfer a crushload.  I'll post a thread here linking to pictures of said church if/when I find them.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #148 on: October 02, 2017, 01:01:03 PM »
Why the Liturgy has to be pleasant to you? If it is pleasant to God this is what it matters.

Anyhow we get life and eternal life from Holy Liturgy and this is what it matters. I am romanian that is western blood and eastern culture and I don't see the need for western style Liturgy. I am not against it if it brings forth life and eternal life.

For me oif God is happy with Holy Lityurgy being it in arabic or hindu I cannot be more happier. And if I getr life and eternal life that is super.

Very good.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #149 on: October 02, 2017, 03:43:23 PM »
Why the Liturgy has to be pleasant to you? If it is pleasant to God this is what it matters.

Anyhow we get life and eternal life from Holy Liturgy and this is what it matters. I am romanian that is western blood and eastern culture and I don't see the need for western style Liturgy. I am not against it if it brings forth life and eternal life.

For me oif God is happy with Holy Lityurgy being it in arabic or hindu I cannot be more happier. And if I getr life and eternal life that is super.

Very good.

Indeed.

I love you guys, Pasadi and Porter.  You are loving champions of our faith.  God bless you, and please pray for me a sinner.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.