Author Topic: Dis-illusionment and letting go  (Read 7134 times)

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Offline The young fogey

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Dis-illusionment and letting go
« on: August 31, 2017, 10:11:55 PM »
In another thread one of the many converts in this forum was being kind saying that losing your faith in your birth church and in God as it understands him is painful. I just wanted to say I've done that. I was born Episcopal, so before I became Catholic I had to be shocked by the reality of Episcopalianism and let go of a vision of it I had really believed in. (I really wanted Catholicism; Episcopalianism is at heart Protestant.) So my non-acceptance of Orthodoxy isn't based on a reluctance to let go.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 10:18:31 PM »
Well, but you were always very reluctant to let your Westernness go, this is obvious from following you up.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 10:21:01 PM »
I love participating in the East but I don't buy anti-Westernism.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 10:33:03 PM »
I love participating in the East but I don't buy anti-Westernism.

We aren't selling it. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 10:48:24 PM »
I love participating in the East but I don't buy anti-Westernism.

We aren't selling it.

Sorry but that's not what I see.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 10:57:41 PM »
I love participating in the East but I don't buy anti-Westernism.

We aren't selling it.

Sorry but that's not what I see.

Maybe you need better glasses or should get lasik. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 11:13:07 PM »
I love participating in the East but I don't buy anti-Westernism.

We aren't selling it.

Sorry but that's not what I see.

Obviously, but you err. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Online augustin717

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 12:00:50 AM »
When Matthew Heimbach is busy saving Western Civilization, the accusation of anti-Westernism is a tad bit unfair.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 12:52:10 AM »
When Matthew Heimbach is busy saving Western Civilization, the accusation of anti-Westernism is a tad bit unfair.

This man is a fat loser who'd lose a battle of wits with Terri Schiavo as she stared him down from her hospital bed. He's clueless.

I love participating in the East but I don't buy anti-Westernism.

We aren't selling it.

Sorry but that's not what I see.

In response to the OP though, it's true that EO has a weird relationship with Western culture in general (human rights, the Enlightenment, Latin theology/saints even from the first millennium, etc.). But do note that Orthodoxy comes in many different shapes and sizes. Can anyone honestly think that Metropolitan Ware is anti-Western? As for OC-net tho, dude, you have flat-earthers here who think calling the Earth a planet is the gateway drug to heresy. Idk what you're expecting.

If it's any consolation, I'm not anti-Western at least. This will probably land me in some hot water, but honestly, I think this big-to-do over how horrible Novus Ordo is, is completely blown out of proportion. There are aspects of NO that I prefer compared the St. John Chrysostom's Divine Liturgy. As for why WR hasn't expanded, I'd wager because it has no central organized effort behind it. It's a sparse item amidst a sea of various jurisdictions throughout the West, who often fight with one another over jurisdictional rights or are always in competition with one another. My question is this though, if NO had failed to take root as much as it has done, would you consider it just as false as WR?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 12:52:32 AM »
When Matthew Heimbach is busy saving Western Civilization, the accusation of anti-Westernism is a tad bit unfair.
actually lol'd
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 04:12:50 AM »
I was born Episcopal, so before I became Catholic I had to be shocked by the reality of Episcopalianism and let go of a vision of it I had really believed in.
Is it that, or is it that your side lost a fight because your side didn't fight very well?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 04:13:47 AM »
I love participating in the East
How do we get to points in our lives where the above quote makes any sort of sense, smh
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 04:14:29 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 04:52:45 AM »
Thanks, guys.

Quote
Obviously, but you err.

You see the true church; I see something petty that doesn't consider my baptism valid in itself because we are of a different culture when we are really the same faith. Us: Orthodox doctrine is Catholic doctrine limited to the definitions of our first seven councils (you've never officially taught heresy), and you have real bishops and the Mass. You: we're heretics about the Holy Spirit, our ecclesiology is wrong, unless one converts, one's sacraments are in themselves void, and our phronema is satanic—I'm exaggerating but not much. Orthodox opinion about divorce and remarriage (I know it's pre-schism but I'm still not buying) and now contraception are wrong. (The Orthodox have never officially taught heresy.) Before the 1900s, almost all the teachings on sex that are now considered Catholic were simply Christian.

Quote
When Matthew Heimbach is busy saving Western Civilization, the accusation of anti-Westernism is a tad bit unfair.

I get the sarcasm of course but seriously, I think the Russians are a shining example of Western civilization. I hope Putin is another Constantine. I can't pretend that only they are and the Germans et al. aren't.

Quote
But do note that Orthodoxy comes in many different shapes and sizes.


I know that; thanks. But at heart what I wrote above is true.

Quote
As for why WR hasn't expanded, I'd wager because it has no central organized effort behind it.


Orthodoxy has no central organized effort behind it; there's no Pope. To which I'll add that ROCOR obviously doesn't want Western rites, which partly explains the crackdown on Bishop Jerome (Shaw), fired not for heresy but alleged insubordination, and the shutting down of that vicariate (I understand it tolerates its WR parishes). The main Orthodox jurisdictions in America besides the Antiochians—the Greeks and the OCA—barely put up with it, not allowing it themselves.

The comparison to Eastern Catholicism is always at hand but I tried to be fair by meeting you on neutral ground, a comparison to a successful example of an only century-old church vs. WRO that neither of us believes in, the Polish National Catholic Church. It is a low-grade success. It hasn't really expanded but it's generational. Why isn't WRO?

Quote
It's a sparse item amidst a sea of various jurisdictions throughout the West, who often fight with one another over jurisdictional rights or are always in competition with one another.

How Orthodoxy in the West is, as you know.

Quote
My question is this though, if NO had failed to take root as much as it has done, would you consider it just as false as WR?

That's a different issue, because although I don't like the Novus Ordo or writing new services even though, thanks to liturgical studies, we now know how, it's not against our teachings, so even if it failed it would not be false. But now I see what you mean, and had it not been thoroughly imposed so most people didn't use it, it would be something like what you wrote.

Quote
Is it that, or is it that your side lost a fight because your side didn't fight very well?

Point taken; there are converts who are really still fighting battles in their old churches, which Orthodox priests complain about. I'm not one of them. I've been friendly with some Episcopalians online, even a woman priest, because I don't give the Episcopal Church a second thought. That's because I accept it for what it is, not what Anglo-Catholics thought it was: a Protestant denomination, obvious to most people.

Quote
Quote
I love participating in the East

How do we get to points in our lives where the above quote makes any sort of sense, smh

I know the Orthodox don't accept it, so for example I don't say I'm Orthodox.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 09:22:31 AM »
Orthodox opinion about divorce and remarriage (I know it's pre-schism but I'm still not buying) and now contraception are wrong.

As has been proven many, many times, the Catholic church allows both divorce and contraception, just under the veil of sophistry.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 09:23:47 AM »
When Matthew Heimbach is busy saving Western Civilization, the accusation of anti-Westernism is a tad bit unfair.

Nice.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 09:32:30 AM »
Quote

How do we get to points in our lives where the above quote makes any sort of sense, smh

I know the Orthodox don't accept it, so for example I don't say I'm Orthodox.

I mean the thought of "participating in the east/west" is bizarre, regardless of denomination.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2017, 09:46:41 AM »
Thanks, guys.

Quote
Obviously, but you err.

You see the true church; I see something petty that doesn't consider my baptism valid in itself because we are of a different culture when we are really the same faith. Us: Orthodox doctrine is Catholic doctrine limited to the definitions of our first seven councils (you've never officially taught heresy), and you have real bishops and the Mass. You: we're heretics about the Holy Spirit, our ecclesiology is wrong, unless one converts, one's sacraments are in themselves void, and our phronema is satanic—I'm exaggerating but not much. Orthodox opinion about divorce and remarriage (I know it's pre-schism but I'm still not buying) and now contraception are wrong. (The Orthodox have never officially taught heresy.) Before the 1900s, almost all the teachings on sex that are now considered Catholic were simply Christian.

Quote
When Matthew Heimbach is busy saving Western Civilization, the accusation of anti-Westernism is a tad bit unfair.

I get the sarcasm of course but seriously, I think the Russians are a shining example of Western civilization. I hope Putin is another Constantine. I can't pretend that only they are and the Germans et al. aren't.

Quote
But do note that Orthodoxy comes in many different shapes and sizes.


I know that; thanks. But at heart what I wrote above is true.

Quote
As for why WR hasn't expanded, I'd wager because it has no central organized effort behind it.


Orthodoxy has no central organized effort behind it; there's no Pope. To which I'll add that ROCOR obviously doesn't want Western rites, which partly explains the crackdown on Bishop Jerome (Shaw), fired not for heresy but alleged insubordination, and the shutting down of that vicariate (I understand it tolerates its WR parishes). The main Orthodox jurisdictions in America besides the Antiochians—the Greeks and the OCA—barely put up with it, not allowing it themselves.

The comparison to Eastern Catholicism is always at hand but I tried to be fair by meeting you on neutral ground, a comparison to a successful example of an only century-old church vs. WRO that neither of us believes in, the Polish National Catholic Church. It is a low-grade success. It hasn't really expanded but it's generational. Why isn't WRO?

Quote
It's a sparse item amidst a sea of various jurisdictions throughout the West, who often fight with one another over jurisdictional rights or are always in competition with one another.

How Orthodoxy in the West is, as you know.

Quote
My question is this though, if NO had failed to take root as much as it has done, would you consider it just as false as WR?

That's a different issue, because although I don't like the Novus Ordo or writing new services even though, thanks to liturgical studies, we now know how, it's not against our teachings, so even if it failed it would not be false. But now I see what you mean, and had it not been thoroughly imposed so most people didn't use it, it would be something like what you wrote.

Quote
Is it that, or is it that your side lost a fight because your side didn't fight very well?

Point taken; there are converts who are really still fighting battles in their old churches, which Orthodox priests complain about. I'm not one of them. I've been friendly with some Episcopalians online, even a woman priest, because I don't give the Episcopal Church a second thought. That's because I accept it for what it is, not what Anglo-Catholics thought it was: a Protestant denomination, obvious to most people.

Quote
Quote
I love participating in the East

How do we get to points in our lives where the above quote makes any sort of sense, smh

I know the Orthodox don't accept it, so for example I don't say I'm Orthodox.


I should say that many of the problems you state are applicable to Roman Catholicism in it's view on Orthodoxy as well, no matter how friendly the ecumenical language can be.

The Orthodox Church is a "schismatic" group on the sole fact that, according to the Roman church, the communion to Peter has been lost - which is necessary for salvation. One simply needs to read the Encyclical of Pius IX to the Eastern Churches (which provoked a response by the Ecumenical Patriarch, dismantling the argument). The flowery language has been "separated brethren" or "imperfect communion" but the the Orthodox are still seen as schismatics.

I should also point out that Cardinal Humbert anathematized the Orthodox on the grounds that the Church removed the "filioque" from the Creed.

And, considering that there is no salvation outside the Church (which the Orthodox believe as well - although today they really do adhere to it more than Roman Catholics do), should it matter whether or not the sacraments are valid or not?

One even comes to the logical deduction with sacrament validity that the Orthodox are in a worse state than the Anglicans, because they "commit sacrilege" by receiving communion in a state of mortal sin.

As it pertains to Baptism, the approach of mainstream Orthodox Churches has been viewing heterodox baptism as "insufficient" but through "economia" it is made full, and their Christian experience in their past experience is made full. I consider this a much better approach than simply stating "oh, your baptism was valid. Carry on!"

Now, contraception and divorce - the Orthodox Church in the case of divorce, it is still seen as morally unacceptable and not right, but the system in place of "three divorces" is a much better system than the infamous annulment system, where one could theoretically dissolve an infinite amount of marriages. Contraception being allowed and promulgated in the Orthodox Church is misunderstood on the basis that the Orthodox Church isn't as legalistic. What if someone (a woman) needs contraception for a medical reason? Should she be denied that? Contraception is seen as morally wrong, and it is a grave sin unless permitted by the priest for a reason like the one mentioned. It is wrong on the basis that it disfigured the intended gift of God - but it can get kind of murky as previously described. Of course, every once in a while you get some Orthodox priest who has no problem with contraception - but the same can be said about Roman Catholic priests.

Even Tolstoy in Anna Karenina recognized how contraception was immoral.

I recommend finding an Orthodox priest to talk to, even if - at the very least - to be more objective.

Also, the "no centralized structure" - I actually find this better than having one, because you can't just infect one organization with heresy and expect the entire organization to implode (as has happened in the Roman church) - if you do that with one of the Churches in Orthodoxy, the rest of the Churches can retaliate and tell you to get your stuff back together.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 09:53:17 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 10:11:31 AM »
Quote

How do we get to points in our lives where the above quote makes any sort of sense, smh

I know the Orthodox don't accept it, so for example I don't say I'm Orthodox.

I mean the thought of "participating in the east/west" is bizarre, regardless of denomination.

I like participating in Italy when I order pizza.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2017, 12:08:18 PM »
YF,

I'm going to pass on addressing "divorce and remarriage" because there's no point.  If you concede it is pre-schism (and, I would add, not schism-provoking in all that time) but reject it because you don't like it, that's hardly a dogmatic issue.  If anything, it's "discipline and culture". 

Quote
Obviously, but you err.

You see the true church; I see something petty that doesn't consider my baptism valid in itself because we are of a different culture when we are really the same faith. Us: Orthodox doctrine is Catholic doctrine limited to the definitions of our first seven councils (you've never officially taught heresy), and you have real bishops and the Mass. You: we're heretics about the Holy Spirit, our ecclesiology is wrong, unless one converts, one's sacraments are in themselves void, and our phronema is satanic—I'm exaggerating but not much.

Your "Us" perspective is an exaggeration of its own kind. 

Until fairly recently (e.g., Vatican II), Catholic doctrine regarding the "Eastern schismatics" may have regarded them as having a real priesthood and real sacraments, but the lack of communion/submission to Rome meant that each time ordinations or other priestly acts were performed they were all schismatic acts, and as such at least gravely illicit and causing participants to be guilty of mortal sin, which means that every new performance also added sacrilege to the list of committed sins. 

Catholics would have described our rejection of Filioque as heretical (in fact, some RC apologists on this forum have done so, which suggests this is still an acceptable view in your Church). 

Obviously our ecclesiology is wrong if it doesn't accept your teaching on the role of the Pope (at least one Catholic priest has told me I'm going to hell simply for not submitting to the Pope, so it's not like the stakes aren't high). 

If you follow certain "conservative/traditional" Catholic circles, our tolerance for divorce/remarriage is billed as a rejection of the doctrine of the indissolubility of marriage, while in other more "pastoral" circles, it is viewed as a non-sacramental loophole (granted legitimacy by our general fidelity to tradition) allowing otherwise sinful people to not be totally alienated from the Church...in either case, we're doing something wrong, but our traditions are being appealed to in order to fight culture wars in your Church (and not just with regard to marriage and family).

While lip service is paid to the disciplinary nature of clerical celibacy and therefore the legitimacy of the Orthodox practice, there is all sorts of material out there about the reasons why our practice is wrong (e.g., because our clergy are not bound to perpetual continence upon ordination).  "It's just discipline" seems like a technicality, the real truth is something quite different. 

And I think that's true about a lot of Catholic opinion about Orthodoxy, which is not limited to the preceding few points.  It has changed in terms of how it's expressed and acted upon, as if it was a disciplinary matter, but a lot of the substance of past opinion remains to this day.  But you ignore that and make Catholicism out to be generous to Orthodoxy while we do not return the favour, and you forget that your own Church has had and essentially still does have identical or similar charges to levy against Orthodoxy.  It is disingenuous for you to paint us as bigots.  Many of these charges, on both sides of the schism, are essentially about matters of faith and morals, they are not an elevation of local cultures to dogmatic status or whatever other bogus claims you make.  We can disagree about them, but we can't say they are just tribalism on our side and catholic liberality on yours.   
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 01:27:54 PM »
YF,

I'm going to pass on addressing "divorce and remarriage" because there's no point.  If you concede it is pre-schism (and, I would add, not schism-provoking in all that time) but reject it because you don't like it, that's hardly a dogmatic issue.  If anything, it's "discipline and culture". 

Yes, quite a concession to make, and an important one, as it shows that YF's feigned inclusivity of local Christian traditions still fits under the umbrella of Latin chauvinism.

Quote
But you ignore that and make Catholicism out to be generous to Orthodoxy while we do not return the favour, and you forget that your own Church has had and essentially still does have identical or similar charges to levy against Orthodoxy.  It is disingenuous for you to paint us as bigots.  Many of these charges, on both sides of the schism, are essentially about matters of faith and morals, they are not an elevation of local cultures to dogmatic status or whatever other bogus claims you make.  We can disagree about them, but we can't say they are just tribalism on our side and catholic liberality on yours.   

Right. And it's a pretty weird line of argument, as if sacramental liberality were a mark of the true church. If that were the case, we should all be Methodists or something.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 01:33:52 PM »
Quote

How do we get to points in our lives where the above quote makes any sort of sense, smh

I know the Orthodox don't accept it, so for example I don't say I'm Orthodox.

I mean the thought of "participating in the east/west" is bizarre, regardless of denomination.

I like participating in Italy when I order pizza.

I like participating right smack dab in the middle of the east when I have my kababs!
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2017, 05:35:49 PM »
Quote
Well, but you were always very reluctant to let your Westernness go, this is obvious from following you up.

This lets the cat out of the bag: to be in the putative true church you have to stop being Western, adopting a foreign phronema. I think I understand the phronema, so I explain the sacramentology as I know it (in which our baptisms aren't valid in themselves; they have to be validated by becoming Orthodox but never mind; just receive through baptism), not as I might like it. And I say no to that phronema.

Quote
As has been proven many, many times, the Catholic church allows both divorce and contraception, just under the veil of sophistry.

The Episcopalians, who now have same-sex weddings, say the same regarding gay Catholics and gay Orthodox alike.

Quote
I mean the thought of "participating in the east/west" is bizarre, regardless of denomination.

I get it but maintain just as Westerners can be called to move east, one can be functionally biritual. I've gotten flak about this from well-meaning Eastern Catholics who defend their church homes from dilettantes playing with religion; it's true that a rite should be a home, not a playground. For me it's like being born in one country and living there, but having lived in another for a long time and keeping a literal second home there.

Quote
I'm going to pass on addressing "divorce and remarriage" because there's no point.  If you concede it is pre-schism (and, I would add, not schism-provoking in all that time) but reject it because you don't like it, that's hardly a dogmatic issue.  If anything, it's "discipline and culture". 

Latin chauvinism.

No. Logic. Non-contradiction.

Quote
Until fairly recently (e.g., Vatican II), Catholic doctrine regarding the "Eastern schismatics" may have regarded them as having a real priesthood and real sacraments, but the lack of communion/submission to Rome meant that each time ordinations or other priestly acts were performed they were all schismatic acts, and as such at least gravely illicit and causing participants to be guilty of mortal sin, which means that every new performance also added sacrilege to the list of committed sins.


Similar to what I understand the traditional Catholic view is but not quite. Here you allude to the truth that while we believe Orthodox bishops are real, we don't believe Orthodox clergy normally have jurisdiction (they do in an emergency so a dying Catholic may ask an Orthodox priest for the sacraments if there is no Catholic priest). We can't say if anyone is in mortal sin. Mortal sin consists of grave matter (such as setting up altar against altar, against the church's lawful bishops), sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will. I don't say that born Orthodox, acting in good faith, are personally guilty of schism (reflection and the will aren't involved). That squares with our doctrine, and if it doesn't agree with traditionalist opinion, I don't care. If something one has done involves grave matter, we require absolution in case there is mortal sin.

Quote
Catholics would have described our rejection of Filioque as heretical (in fact, some RC apologists on this forum have done so, which suggests this is still an acceptable view in your Church).
 

They don't speak for the church. We have never declared the Orthodox heretics because the Orthodox have never dogmatized anything heretical.

Quote
If you follow certain "conservative/traditional" Catholic circles...

I share their practice but don't care what they think; I only care about the gospel and our doctrine.

Quote
It is disingenuous for you to paint us as bigots.

There are Eastern Catholics who are entirely unlatinized. Where are the unbyzantinized WRO? In theory they're entirely possible and would impress me.

Quote
Right. And it's a pretty weird line of argument, as if sacramental liberality were a mark of the true church. If that were the case, we should all be Methodists or something.

Ha ha; yes. That's not an end in itself. If I wanted high liturgics and high theology but open Communion with all Christians I'd still be an Episcopalian; they do that now.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 09:24:51 PM »
You see the true church; I see something petty that doesn't consider my baptism valid in itself because we are of a different culture when we are really the same faith.
It's not the same faith. You know very well what Orthodox Christians say about RC doctrine.
Also, Christ himself said that we should know them by their fruits. Guitar and clown masses are not fruits of the same faith, I am sorry.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2017, 09:28:55 PM »
You know very well what Orthodox Christians say about RC doctrine.

Right, so I'm not Orthodox.

Also, Christ himself said that we should know them by their fruits. Guitar and clown masses are not fruits of the same faith, I am sorry.

That's confusing culture with doctrine. I don't want guitars but don't mind if someone else does, as long as he accepts our teachings and doesn't try to take my forms of worship away. Clown Masses are an overused, outdated synecdoche for liturgical abuse.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2017, 09:31:05 PM »
You see the true church; I see something petty that doesn't consider my baptism valid in itself because we are of a different culture when we are really the same faith.
It's not the same faith. You know very well what Orthodox Christians say about RC doctrine.
Also, Christ himself said that we should know them by their fruits. Guitar and clown masses are not fruits of the same faith, I am sorry.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2017, 09:45:52 PM »
You see the true church; I see something petty that doesn't consider my baptism valid in itself because we are of a different culture when we are really the same faith.
It's not the same faith. You know very well what Orthodox Christians say about RC doctrine.
Also, Christ himself said that we should know them by their fruits. Guitar and clown masses are not fruits of the same faith, I am sorry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=__atHXt2SDg
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Offline The young fogey

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2017, 10:37:28 PM »
That's confusing culture with doctrine. I don't want guitars but don't mind if someone else does, as long as he accepts our teachings and doesn't try to take my forms of worship away. Clown Masses are an overused, outdated synecdoche for liturgical abuse.

My point is that having the right faith is inseparable from right worship. As you know, the Greek term can mean both.

If Roman Catholicism had the right faith, there wouldn't be such a universality of liturgical abuse. There would be a sense of holiness instead.
And whereas clown masses may be "overused", I can say that a majority of NOMs I have been to omitted the creed or replaced it by a song that merely confessed a general belief in God, rather than the specific points of faith that matter. Only a minority of NOMs I saw contained a creed, usually the so-called Apostles' creed.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2017, 10:39:03 PM »
In another thread one of the many converts in this forum was being kind saying that losing your faith in your birth church and in God as it understands him is painful. I just wanted to say I've done that.

No, you haven't. You seem rather proud of your baptism in the church of John Shelby Spong and Gene Robinson, and your real issue with Orthodoxy seems to be that we consider that one to be somewhat incomplete.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2017, 10:44:42 PM »
I feel about Episcopalianism largely how many of the former Catholics on this board say they feel about Catholicism. I'm grateful for what it gave me, including a real baptism, but it has none of my support; I don't follow its current doings.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2017, 11:35:44 PM »
I feel about Episcopalianism largely how many of the former Catholics on this board say they feel about Catholicism. I'm grateful for what it gave me, including a real baptism, but it has none of my support; I don't follow its current doings.

Why is it so important for you to consider that Episcopalianism gives real baptisms?

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2017, 12:03:25 AM »
You see the true church; I see something petty that doesn't consider my baptism valid in itself because we are of a different culture when we are really the same faith.
It's not the same faith. You know very well what Orthodox Christians say about RC doctrine.
Also, Christ himself said that we should know them by their fruits. Guitar and clown masses are not fruits of the same faith, I am sorry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=__atHXt2SDg
LOL what on earth is this? A reenactment of Christ entering into Jerusalem?
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2017, 01:10:03 AM »
Quote

How do we get to points in our lives where the above quote makes any sort of sense, smh

I know the Orthodox don't accept it, so for example I don't say I'm Orthodox.

I mean the thought of "participating in the east/west" is bizarre, regardless of denomination.

I like participating in Italy when I order pizza.

I like participating right smack dab in the middle of the east when I have my kababs!

Indeed, in my experience, zereshk polo with a side of tadiq, and with doogh as your drink, a Persian kebab preparation, is best, which I suppose by this peculiar argument would lead to the alarming suggestion that I routinely and with gusto participate in the Islamic Republic of Iran.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2017, 04:58:18 AM »
It's logical, Gorazd. The church accepts any baptism with the right matter, form, and intent (to do what the church does), no matter who does it. My feelings about the Episcopal Church, whatever they may be, don't come into it.

Careful, Alpha60. I thought you were ignoring me. Talking about me is the same as talking to me. Before you know it, you'll be considering Catholicism. Seriously, I was expecting this. I know the Orthodox don't accept what I do, just like they don't accept canonical Byzantine Catholics.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2017, 05:21:25 AM »
The church accepts any baptism with the right matter, form, and intent (to do what the church does), no matter who does it.

Sounds like a cooking recipe. This is what I meant be wrong phronima. How can an act of the Church be done outside the Church? For Rome, TEC is not even a church body, as per Apostolicae curae (1896).

But anyway, my question was not why Roman Catholic theology considers it to be valid, but what makes it so important to you to believe in this. I really feel that what you like most about Rome is that they believe you to have been fully and validly baptized as a child. Why is it so hard to accept that baptism is an act of the Church and its fullness must thus happen within the Church?

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2017, 07:00:23 AM »
Quote
Sounds like a cooking recipe. This is what I meant by wrong phronema. How can an act of the Church be done outside the Church? For Rome, TEC is not even a church body, as per Apostolicae curae (1896).


God founded the church but isn't limited to it. There's a similar saying by an Orthodox popular with some, that we know where the church is but can't say where it isn't. A lot like Vatican II: the church "subsists in" the Catholic Church but others, born outside, are connected to it by varying degrees.

Your intent to do what the church does is why we accept your orders and your Eucharist but not the Anglicans'.

Quote
But anyway, my question was not why Roman Catholic theology considers it to be valid, but what makes it so important to you to believe in this. I really feel that what you like most about Rome is that they believe you to have been fully and validly baptized as a child. Why is it so hard to accept that baptism is an act of the Church and its fullness must thus happen within the Church?

That the Catholic Church recognizes the Episcopal Church's baptisms isn't the main reason I'm Catholic. The reason is it has everything good the Orthodox have (the doctrine of the first seven councils, sacraments and sacramentals such as images, a traditional liturgy, and ascesis) plus it's not limited to one set of cultures and it makes sense; it took the best of Aristotle and explained the faith of the Jews completed by Christ. As a Catholic you can live entirely like the Orthodox if you want to (I don't and don't claim to, but have a foot standing in that); you can't really live like a Western Catholic as an Orthodox. The AWRV comes close. I like them but understand the Orthodox' suspicion of all that post-schism Catholic stuff. ROCOR's WR had potential to be a sort of early-medieval, truly Western but nonpapal thing but ROCOR's Russian chauvinism (hardwired into ROCOR's culture; it is by nature a Russian-exile church) did it in, worsened by enthusiastic, well-meaning converts russifying, betraying the words of John of Shanghai and San Francisco: "you don't have to become foreign to become Orthodox," but everybody who becomes Orthodox pretends to be foreign to some degree. I participate in the culture too but don't feel compelled to disown my own as heresy, so I say I'm not pretending. That's why I'm Catholic.

The Protestant view of the church is too broad and ultimately self-refuting (mainline denominations having intercommunion); the Orthodox too narrow. Catholicism makes sense.
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Offline servulus

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2017, 10:23:33 AM »
The Protestant view of the church is too broad and ultimately self-refuting (mainline denominations having intercommunion); the Orthodox too narrow. Catholicism makes sense.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2017, 10:39:00 AM »
Not our teachings and not the rules of the new Mass. An abuse. There's inculturation and there are syncretism and indifferentism. This looks like the latter.
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Offline Isaac14

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2017, 10:42:39 AM »
but everybody who becomes Orthodox pretends to be foreign to some degree.

I'm curious about ways someone like me, a convert, may be pretending to be foreign? By way of background, I was raised Lutheran, becoming Orthodox about six years ago. My family heritage is Scandinavian. I do enjoy learning common phrases like "Lord, have mercy" or "Christ is Risen" in as many languages as I can and I certainly enjoy the great variety of foods from all over the world that show up at my parish's coffee hour. What led me to convert, however, is just how thoroughly the message of the Gospel permeates every service in a way that I had not experienced anywhere else (the food and the cultural stuff was a pleasant bonus).

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2017, 10:44:58 AM »
Get to know the best of Western Catholicism too and get back to me.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2017, 11:54:39 AM »
but everybody who becomes Orthodox pretends to be foreign to some degree.

It seems you're conflating culture and faith.  Regardless, it's not fair to determine for others whether their actions and motivations are authentic or not.  Unless, of course, you appreciate the same treatment.  If someone leaves their box because they want to, that is not pretending; that is authentic.  Staying in the box would be pretending in such a case.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 11:55:37 AM by Ainnir »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2017, 11:57:51 AM »
Quote
I'm going to pass on addressing "divorce and remarriage" because there's no point.  If you concede it is pre-schism (and, I would add, not schism-provoking in all that time) but reject it because you don't like it, that's hardly a dogmatic issue.  If anything, it's "discipline and culture". 

Latin chauvinism.

No. Logic. Non-contradiction.

All of the words in the quote are mine except "Latin chauvinism".  Not sure how that got in there. 

Quote
Quote
Until fairly recently (e.g., Vatican II), Catholic doctrine regarding the "Eastern schismatics" may have regarded them as having a real priesthood and real sacraments, but the lack of communion/submission to Rome meant that each time ordinations or other priestly acts were performed they were all schismatic acts, and as such at least gravely illicit and causing participants to be guilty of mortal sin, which means that every new performance also added sacrilege to the list of committed sins.


Similar to what I understand the traditional Catholic view is but not quite. Here you allude to the truth that while we believe Orthodox bishops are real, we don't believe Orthodox clergy normally have jurisdiction (they do in an emergency so a dying Catholic may ask an Orthodox priest for the sacraments if there is no Catholic priest). We can't say if anyone is in mortal sin. Mortal sin consists of grave matter (such as setting up altar against altar, against the church's lawful bishops), sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will. I don't say that born Orthodox, acting in good faith, are personally guilty of schism (reflection and the will aren't involved). That squares with our doctrine, and if it doesn't agree with traditionalist opinion, I don't care. If something one has done involves grave matter, we require absolution in case there is mortal sin.

I never said you, The young fogey, say such things.  You tow your Church's current line.  But for centuries your Church was towing a line you now condemn us for towing, the results of which are plainly evident throughout history because they are written in ink and blood.  One of the most frustrating aspects of dialogue with RCs is that you can point this out to them, and they won't accept it.  "Logic" and "Non-contradiction" are so sacrosanct that they will violate the laws of physics to bend and twist and contort in order to demonstrate that nothing has changed.  But how do we have dialogue with people who think we are too stupid to understand?   

Quote
Quote
Catholics would have described our rejection of Filioque as heretical (in fact, some RC apologists on this forum have done so, which suggests this is still an acceptable view in your Church).
 

They don't speak for the church. We have never declared the Orthodox heretics because the Orthodox have never dogmatized anything heretical.

Maybe they don't speak for the Church, but when they quote the Church speaking for the Church, and you quote the Church speaking for the Church, but the quotes are centuries apart, what to do?  We are told that the papacy guarantees certainty, but where is it? 

Quote
Quote
If you follow certain "conservative/traditional" Catholic circles...

I share their practice but don't care what they think; I only care about the gospel and our doctrine.

That is so facile as to be meaningless. 

Quote
Quote
It is disingenuous for you to paint us as bigots.

There are Eastern Catholics who are entirely unlatinized. Where are the unbyzantinized WRO? In theory they're entirely possible and would impress me.

And there are Eastern Catholics who are thoroughly latinised, whether through imposition or imitation.  So why single out the WRO for a charge of bigotry? 

The priest who told me I was going to hell for not submitting to the Pope was a member of a rather latinised Eastern Catholic Church.  They are so latinised they think their latinised traditions are really "Indian" and that the Eastern traditions are a "Persianising" influence that they should reject because it is an undue elevation of culture to a doctrinal level, and to the extent that Rome wants them to embrace their Eastern heritage, it is actually an ecclesiologically Eastern thing for them to resist their attempt at asserting jurisdiction and continue as they please.  As a dear friend would say, "it's bananas".

But because they submit to the Pope, they can do what they want, and we're going to hell for doing what we always did and never stopped doing...and we're bigots.  Please.     
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2017, 12:01:14 PM »
but everybody who becomes Orthodox pretends to be foreign to some degree.

It seems you're conflating culture and faith.

The irony!
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2017, 02:36:57 PM »
... but everybody who becomes Orthodox pretends to be foreign to some degree.
In this day and age, to be a Christian requires one to become foreign to this culture, its mores, its idols, its demands, etc.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2017, 02:39:04 PM »
There are Eastern Catholics who are entirely unlatinized.
Being familiar with about half of the Eastern Catholic Churches, I feel inclined to infer that this is hard to believe.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2017, 02:40:53 PM »
My point is that having the right faith is inseparable from right worship. As you know, the Greek term can mean both.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2017, 02:45:26 PM »
"Logic" and "Non-contradiction" are so sacrosanct that they will violate the laws of physics to bend and twist and contort in order to demonstrate that nothing has changed.
Rome will twist and contort the events of history and the very words of Holy Scriptures to anachronically justify the indefensible corner that it has painted itself in.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2017, 02:48:41 PM »
... I was born Episcopal, so before I became Catholic I had to be shocked by the reality of Episcopalianism and let go of a vision of it I had really believed in. (I really wanted Catholicism; Episcopalianism is at heart Protestant.)
Were you an Anglo Catholic? 
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2017, 09:31:58 PM »
Quote
So why single out the WRO for a charge of bigotry?

As far as I know there are no unbyzantinized WRO.

Quote
If someone leaves their box because they want to, that is not pretending; that is authentic.

But I can step out of my box without condemning the box.

Quote
Quote
There are Eastern Catholics who are entirely unlatinized.

Being familiar with about half of the Eastern Catholic Churches, I feel inclined to infer that this is hard to believe.

Get to know the Melkites and the Russian Catholic Church. I've visited both; they along with the Orthodox are my model for behavior in the Byzantine Rite.

Quote
Were you an Anglo-Catholic?

Not born A-C but one by the time I left. By the way, A-Cism comes in different versions, not all of them friendly to Rome. The Anglo-Papalists are would-be Catholics, believing in everything the church teaches. Of course these people are now joining our ordinariates for Anglican alumni. The Romanizers don't agree with us on everything but want to come back to us and see the Roman Rite as the basis for their reunion. (They often stop short of Catholicism because they're gay.) You see these two groups more in England than America. Other high churchmen believe something more like classic Anglicans, that theirs is the best "branch" of the church; they are implicitly the true church, at least the only lawful church in England and America. (Yes, some Episcopalians thought like that. 1950s American Anglo-Catholics copied our liturgics and spirituality but believed in something they thought was Anglicanism.) These churchmen are naturals for WRO. Now you have the liberal high-church people, credal, liturgical, and sacramental, still loving our culture, but they believe the church is fallible and they are on board with liberal Protestantism and the secular world on hot-button issues, from women clergy to same-sex marriage. Pretty much the Episcopal Church now. There are Episcopalians who use the Byzantine Rite. They're like me and the Russian Catholics. They love Orthodoxy but won't deny that their home church has grace. I guess I am assumed to hate them but when I see them online, they remind what a good rite it is.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2017, 10:52:40 PM »
Quote
Quote
There are Eastern Catholics who are entirely unlatinized.

Being familiar with about half of the Eastern Catholic Churches, I feel inclined to infer that this is hard to believe.

Get to know the Melkites and the Russian Catholic Church. I've visited both; they along with the Orthodox are my model for behavior in the Byzantine Rite.
I'm not familiar with the Russians, but the Melkites are much closer to home.  So much so to disagree with you.  For instance, the Melkite Cathedral of St. George in Caracas, Venezuela:


No iconostasis and versus populo.


Modern architecture.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2017, 11:00:23 PM »
Most Melkites aren't like that.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2017, 11:16:29 PM »
Quote
So why single out the WRO for a charge of bigotry?

As far as I know there are no unbyzantinized WRO.

There is no unbyzantinized Novus Ordo either.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2017, 11:16:52 PM »
Most Melkites aren't like that.

"No true Melkite!"
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2017, 08:28:17 AM »
Academic, ecumenical types love to claim how attuned to the East the new Mass is vs. the old Mass, which they hate, simply because the new Mass has descending epicleses in the new Eucharistic prayers and sometimes has a few more deacons such as permanent ones and offers the chalice to the laity (in a very un-Eastern way). I think that's condescending to the East. Simply writing a new service is culturally un-Eastern (and historically un-Western for that matter, though it is allowable).

As you probably know, American Melkite clergy are serious about not being latinized.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 08:29:58 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline Helladius

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2017, 11:14:13 AM »

everybody who becomes Orthodox pretends to be foreign to some degree. I participate in the culture too but don't feel compelled to disown my own as heresy, so I say I'm not pretending. That's why I'm Catholic.

I can't quite see how this makes sense, theologically, as surely a culture can't be heretical - only doctrine can. And so you can belong to and participate in whatever culture you like insofar as it does not impel you to believe or act contrary to the doctrine of the Church. But, trying to make some sense of this, at least the idea that you put forward in this thread that Orthodoxy requires people to become "Eastern" and "foreign"...

I think, as other posters have argued well, it makes no sense to say that you have to become "Eastern" to become Orthodox, or even to group all Orthodox under the label of "Eastern" as if all Orthodox Churches and cultures were homogeneous and confined to a tiny geographical area in the (still nebulous) "East". Historic Orthodox Churches and cultures stretch from (for example) Alaska to India, and Russia to Ethiopia... these cannot all be lumped together as "Eastern"! But, presumably what you're actually saying is from an Anglo Saxon(???) viewpoint all Orthodox Churches and cultures feel foreign to you? Okay, that's a fair enough feeling. But why should that matter so much? IF it were true that to join the true Church you had to change your culture or join a different culture to some degree (which I am unconvinced about anyway, as explained in the first paragraph) then you should do it!

Christ tells us that we must put Him ahead of our mothers, fathers, and siblings, and even be prepared to be in opposition to them in order to follow Him. Undoubtedly, if our own flesh and blood must be sacrificed for Him if need be, then our cultural affinity must be too! And, indeed, St Paul in Philippians 3, having described a Jewish heritage which many would be proud of, goes on to say 'But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ.' Which is not, of course, to say that being of Jewish heritage (or any other heritage) is actually only worth garbage, but rather that everything is worthless if Christ is not put first, and only through Christ is anything made of real worth.

In the early Church there must have been gentile converts and inquirers who complained about having to "become Jewish" to become Christian, just like you complain about becoming Eastern/foreign to become Orthodox. Very early Christianity had a strong Jewish ethos to it, and vocal groups within it who pushed for gentile converts to become as Jewish as possible. Yet it was still the Church! And those gentile converts had no choice but to join it if they wanted to be in the Church and to be saved. With time, the Church became more Hellenised and perhaps Jewish converts then felt that they had to lose their culture in order to join the Church. There are many similar examples, such as the forcible Romanisation of Celtic Christianity in Britain. I'm sure you would agree that, while the Celtic Christians' traditional culture and practices were to a degree Romanised, the right thing was nonetheless for them to stay inside the Church, not for them to leave it.

I think, in fact, over time Orthodoxy in England and America will feel less and less foreign. I have already been to quite a few Orthodox churches in Britain that feel very English (and no, they don't use the Western Rite). In such churches, most of the congregation is English, the languages of the service is King James Bible esque English, and the music is often broadly Russian style but sung in such a way that it sounds quite high Church Anglican. I personally couldn't care less how much Orthodox churches in England feel "English" nor what proportion of the congregation are English, and I like the thoroughly Greek churches I've been too here as much as the very English ones. But, if you want Anglo-Saxon-feeling Orthodoxy, it will become ever more common in the US and Britain with time, I think, as Orthodoxy slowly becomes more embedded into the native culture, as it has done elsewhere. (In fact, listening to Ancient Faith Radio, it already feels quite distinctively American to this Brit!) In any case, this whole foreign-feeling thing seems to me a bit absurd, as I am sure you would find attending a "Anglo-Saxon" church service from the first millenium (or probably even much later) far more foreign-feeling than attending an English-speaking Orthodox church service in present day America or Britain. National culture is always in flux, not a static entity. (I say this not to disparage my national culture, of which I am fond, but as a recognition that it is a likeable thing of this world rather than an eternal truth.)

So, I really can't see how Orthodoxy feeling foreign to you is of any real importance. What matters is where the Church is, not whether it fits comfortably with your cultural self-identity. If Orthodoxy is the Church, then whether it feels foreign or not, you should join it. If it is not the Church, then whether or not it feels foreign is really a matter of no importance.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 11:15:25 AM by Helladius »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2017, 01:36:43 PM »
Quote
I think, as other posters have argued well, it makes no sense to say that you have to become "Eastern" to become Orthodox.

The words of John of Shanghai and San Francisco.

Quote
But why should that matter so much? IF it were true that to join the true Church you had to change your culture or join a different culture to some degree (which I am unconvinced about anyway, as explained in the first paragraph) then you should do it!

The mode in Orthodoxy so WR has beards, "matushki," crossing oneself right to left, and icons galore. Convert enthusiasm and insecurity, sure, but an Orthodox bishop who took John's words to heart would tell them to stop.

Quote
Christ tells us that we must put Him ahead of our mothers, fathers, and siblings, and even be prepared to be in opposition to them in order to follow Him.

But my culture and, more important, church aren't heretical so that doesn't apply.

Quote
I think, in fact, over time Orthodoxy in England and America will feel less and less foreign.

I think over time that Orthodoxy in England and America will go away, as it is now, because it's dropped by the time the descendants of the immigrants are fully English or American, often by the third generation. The same thing is happening to Eastern Catholics in the West. Too soon to tell for your convert boomlet.

Quote
If Orthodoxy is the Church, then whether it feels foreign or not, you should join it. If it is not the Church, then whether or not it feels foreign is really a matter of no importance.

Right. I don't believe it's the church.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2017, 02:01:44 PM »
The mode in Orthodoxy so WR has beards
Again, I showed examples of unbearded WR priests.

And what about bearded RC NOM priests? I see a lot of those recently. How would you classify them?

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2017, 02:34:55 PM »
There have long been clean-shaven Orthodox priests in America (acculturation) and many bearded Roman Rite Catholic priests throughout history even though I understand it long wasn't normally allowed in the Roman Rite at least in some dioceses. At one point in the 1500s beards were fashionable in Italy; the saintly Reginald Cardinal Pole, English but long resident in Italy, had a large one. Capuchin Franciscan friars (the monkey is named after the hood of their habits because he has a fold of skin that looks like it) such as Padre Pio, before Vatican II, wear them. Archbishop Lefebvre had a beard much of his life.

But you know what I mean. If a man was clean-shaven or mustachio'd as an Episcopalian or evangelical but looks like Seraphim (Rose) six months after being chrismated, even though he's Western Rite, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what's going on.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 02:35:15 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline servulus

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2017, 03:50:17 PM »
There have long been clean-shaven Orthodox priests in America (acculturation) and many bearded Roman Rite Catholic priests throughout history even though I understand it long wasn't normally allowed in the Roman Rite at least in some dioceses. At one point in the 1500s beards were fashionable in Italy; the saintly Reginald Cardinal Pole, English but long resident in Italy, had a large one. Capuchin Franciscan friars (the monkey is named after the hood of their habits because he has a fold of skin that looks like it) such as Padre Pio, before Vatican II, wear them. Archbishop Lefebvre had a beard much of his life.

But you know what I mean. If a man was clean-shaven or mustachio'd as an Episcopalian or evangelical but looks like Seraphim (Rose) six months after being chrismated, even though he's Western Rite, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see what's going on.
I wonder if people see my beard and think the same thing. Beards are very common in America now. I had a ten inch beard before even considering Orthodoxy. Why should WR churches not have tons of icons? The matushka thing is strange to me but they prefer it to being called mother so I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I would prefer to go to a WR if one were available to me and  I don't think these things are a problem. I did stand out at the sspx chapel because of the beard and my hair. It would not have bothered me to see icons there either.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 03:51:05 PM by servulus »

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2017, 04:10:34 PM »
Quote
Why should WR churches not have tons of icons?

Because icons aren't Western. Some icons have made it into Western Catholic devotion and churches: Byzantine mosaics in old Sicilian churches and Our Lady of Perpetual Help come to mind. This, on the other hand, is insecure converts putting on the trappings of the Byzantine Riters over them.

Quote
I did stand out at the SSPX chapel because of the beard and my hair.

I'm for "strict decorum in the sanctuary; the laity can come as they are." If I were the priest, you would have been welcome.

I "live in the '50s"; it's part of my own culture and I don't claim you have to do it to be Catholic.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2017, 05:22:14 PM »
Quote
Why should WR churches not have tons of icons?

Because icons aren't Western.

Byzantine cultural imperialism!
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2017, 05:40:15 PM »
As one wag, actually devout underneath, put it, "I like my superstitions good and old." Latinizations in some places don't bother me if they're old and they're less than half the practice (ACROD was like that for many years; the Greeks didn't force changes on them); I don't introduce them. There's natural crossover such as the Roman Rite getting things indirectly from the East through the Gallican Rite, and then there is affectation. Again, an Orthodox bishop serious about WR would tell these converts to cool it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 05:40:41 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2017, 07:14:10 PM »
Academic, ecumenical types love to claim how attuned to the East the new Mass is vs. the old Mass, which they hate, simply because the new Mass has descending epicleses in the new Eucharistic prayers and sometimes has a few more deacons such as permanent ones and offers the chalice to the laity (in a very un-Eastern way). I think that's condescending to the East. Simply writing a new service is culturally un-Eastern (and historically un-Western for that matter, though it is allowable).
+1
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2017, 07:21:34 PM »
Right. I don't believe it's the church.

Yet, it is the Church, imperfectly so, according to the Catholic Church:

Quote from: Dominus Iesus, 17
The Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2017, 07:50:57 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2017, 08:11:05 PM »
The Orthodox churches are churches (with bishops and the Mass, vs. Protestants, who don't have churches; they're just gatherings of the baptized) in the same sense Catholic dioceses are except they're out of communion with us. They're not the church in the sense of the one true church founded by Christ.

Those examples of something like iconography are different from the Byzantine affectation you see everywhere among the all-convert WR.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2017, 08:18:48 PM »
Those examples of something like iconography are different from the Byzantine affectation you see everywhere among the all-convert WR.
For the obvious reason that, over time, the Western iconography became more realistic and sentimental, especially from the 14th century and on, limiting the availability of icons to the East.  But to say that icons are foreign to the West is erroneous.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 08:19:33 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2017, 08:29:02 PM »
Plenty of ethnic Orthodox copied Western painting styles, sometimes a cause for arguments between them and gung-ho converts. Fr. Seraphim (Rose) sided with the ethnics against these "super-correct." I don't like all religious art but I like much of ours that does not belong in the Byzantine Rite. My icon corner is all Byzantine Rite, with nothing particularly post-schism Catholic or Orthodox (three-bar crucifix, old-man Trinity icon from tsarist times, Jesus, Mary, St. Panteleimon, and a group icon card of a few pre-schism worthies).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 08:29:59 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2017, 09:40:39 PM »
Outside a few mentions of icons - that is religious images that were venerated with the understanding that they have some sort of connection with whom they are representing - there were never that many icons in the Latin West outside Italy. There is serious doubt that there were ever any in Gaul in the first millennium and the few mentions we have of them from this time are suspected to be practiced by Greek and Syriac communities in Gaul and the Narbonne. We have St. Augustine of Hippo make a mention or two of icons, so we definitely have some activity in the North African Church. But anywhere north of the Alps is highly doubtful, probably the Visigothic Church too. Given the Franks' response to II Nicaea, the spread of icons in the Latin West appears to have been quite limited in the first millennium - mostly to its communities of Greek and Syriac origin.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 09:44:14 PM by Rohzek »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2017, 11:20:05 PM »
Plenty of ethnic Orthodox copied Western painting styles, sometimes a cause for arguments between them and gung-ho converts. Fr. Seraphim (Rose) sided with the ethnics against these "super-correct." I don't like all religious art but I like much of ours that does not belong in the Byzantine Rite. My icon corner is all Byzantine Rite, with nothing particularly post-schism Catholic or Orthodox (three-bar crucifix, old-man Trinity icon from tsarist times, Jesus, Mary, St. Panteleimon, and a group icon card of a few pre-schism worthies).

I think the underlying principle of why there is a hostility to "Western art" was that - at the most, from when statues were introduced in the West, at least, from the Renaissance onward, there is a massive theological shift in the West terms of liturgical art. The purpose of iconography is to serve two purposes - to teach us about the Gospel and the History of the Church and Her Saints, but also, and as important if not even more important, to focus our minds to the World To Come. The whole purpose of the Divine Liturgy is to recreate Heaven, which is why Liturgy is so ornate and beautiful - in addition to preparing the way for the King (who is literally present in every Divine Liturgy).


It's why iconoclasm was condemned as heresy in the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

In terms of symbolism, the icons of the Saints are theologically flat, lack any movement, and seem like they are outside time and space itself. They are ornate and beautiful in almost a Divine Manner loaded with symbolism (the Theotokos probably didn't walk around wearing bright red/maroon robes or bright blue robes - but these colors were symbols of royalty, and from what I read online, these two colors in different regions were the most expensive colors used - which is why in the West, she is predominantly blue, and in the East, she is predominantly red). She also didn't wear Byzantine-empress shoes or have a glowing halo around her head.

They are flat, and they look directly at another saint or at your soul. You'll also see gold as a predominant background color in most Eastern iconography, symbolic of light.

It's why icons are kissed and venerated - they are symbolic of the Saints in Heaven and when we kiss such icons, we believe that we are symbolically kissing the Saints themselves in a Mysterious way. It's why one will see people kissing the feet of Christ.

I recommend reading this article:
http://antiochian.org/content/no-graven-image-icons-and-their-proper-use

However, statues, being three dimensional intrinsically, already kind of fight against the idea of being "outside time and space" and stagnant, looking into your soul. They also aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidding, are often seen as inferior.

From the Renaissance onward, there is a HUGE theological change. Two focuses were introduced which still exist to this day - the first of which is a complete abandonment of Heaven and a direct focus of earthly life and materialism, the second of which is the adoration of corpses in art.

In the former category, there is a lot of "movement" captured in Western art. When one looks at a scene of Christ being tortured or the Crucifixion, or the Annunciation, the Saints or Christ is posed in such a way that they are reacting to something - almost like a photograph.
And the shift is away from theological symbolism to being "realistic;" that is, to solely being about the lives of the saints on earth. This kind of theological connection to the Heaven is completely lost, supposed to represent the disconnection from Earth, to a full embracing of Earth. The goal is not representing the Saints in Heaven, but representing memories of them. The prayer focus is lost too - the shift goes to not focusing on repentance and being in Heaven seeing the saints in God, but mere education about how people "felt." Thus, many feel it isn't appropriate to venerate such images.

Compare an Orthodox icon of the Annunciation to a Roman Catholic Painting, and look at the movement and symbolism in both.

https://www.easterngiftshop.com/media/ecom/prodlg/Annunciation%20Full%20Size%20flyer.jpg
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ep/web-large/DT404.jpg

In the latter category, there is a huge adoration of corpses. In a funny manner, the shift went away from representing the "bodyless" saints in Heaven (besides Christ and the Virgin Mary) to a love of the human body. True, the human body is pretty - we are made in the image of God, and we are naturally attracted (due to our fallen nature) to such corpses. However, the use of such art in Liturgy is not only not appropriate due to the previously mentioned problems, but it is also problematic because in Renaissance artwork especially, there is such a focus on the detail and beauty of the corpses that it takes precedent completely in the artwork and the story of the saints. People began creating art that "stirs the passions" so to speak and incites lust, something that cannot be denied (which is why many Protestants poke fun at Renaissance artwork with "naked people in church."), even making images of Christ and saints whose sole focus is to make beautiful the corpse.

It also began introducing many pagan elements into the artwork itself - the most obvious example is Michaelangelo's "The Last Judgment," and even from the Annunciation painting shown above, the "bodyless" powers / Cherubim are portrayed as a naked Cupid baby. As an "instruction tool" and a "connector to Heaven," some works of art are even blasphemous for Liturgical use - Michaelangelo's "The Last Judgment," despite how pretty it is, is despicable for veneration and sinful.

I'll give some examples.
Orthodox Crucifixion Icon:
http://www.olgachristine.com/icons/OL_Crucifixion.jpg

Renaissance Painting:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e1/4e/7f/e14e7fb56a5f04a97ee9274e62ea9a58--pictures-of-jesus-classical-art.jpg

Last Judgment Icon:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/79/bc/9179bcf70cb989df19fb98823dff731b.jpg
Painting:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Last_Judgement_%28Michelangelo%29.jpg/1200px-Last_Judgement_%28Michelangelo%29.jpg

Theotokos praying icon:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1136/4188/products/1229__40537.1372976772.1000.1200_large.jpeg?v=1456618018

Painting:
https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/madonna-at-prayer-il-sassoferrato.jpg

Theotokos and Child Icon:
https://ryanphunter.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/theotokos-11.jpg
Painting:
http://italianrenaissanceresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/RP_2311-1.jpg

Thus, there is a hesitancy, considering Roman "development," to just translate over modern Roman Catholic art into Orthodox Liturgy. If we had an endless amount of 13th / 12th century and before art that was widely available and didn't focus so much on three dimensional characteristics, and covered saints and ideas that are Eastern Orthodox so easily, it wouldn't be a problem - but hey, a Liturgically proper substitute is better than a blasphemous one.

For these reasons, contemporary Western art isn't really acceptable.

You might see it as "snobbish," but Traditions are precious and so is Theology.


I didn't really myself comprehend the importance and symbolism of iconography until I saw an icon of Yevgeny Rodionov.

He was a Russian soldier who was killed after some Islamic militants wanted him to remove his Cross, which he refused to do - and he is venerated by many in Russia as a martyr (although the Orthodox Church is hesitant to canonize him - you know, war and stuff).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Yevgeny_Rodionov.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c9/bf/f7/c9bff717bd9aa0a2c1b2c35cd3752965--russian-icons-russian-orthodox.jpg

This icon still gives me goosebumps.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 11:30:33 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2017, 02:27:18 AM »

Thus, there is a hesitancy, considering Roman "development," to just translate over modern Roman Catholic art into Orthodox Liturgy. If we had an endless amount of 13th / 12th century and before art that was widely available and didn't focus so much on three dimensional characteristics, and covered saints and ideas that are Eastern Orthodox so easily, it wouldn't be a problem - but hey, a Liturgically proper substitute is better than a blasphemous one.


I should also point out that undoubtedly in many Orthodox Churches, Western artwork has made its influence to a great extent - but not anywhere near the same extent as the Roman church has been filled with corpses and earthliness, and still represent the theological ideas previously represented. Even then, these more three dimensional icons tend to generate quite the controversy - even with famous ones (despite the miracle-working nature and history of quite a few of them :) )
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2017, 07:30:35 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2017, 08:00:21 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

This is one reason I had to reject Catholicism. When I learnt how they used to paint Orthodox as uncouth barbarians because westerners were clean-shaven and Orthodox walked around looking like ZZ Top, well obviously I couldn't be a part of a Church whose missionaries had pushed such absurd culturally-based arguments for the supposed superiority of their church. Instead I went with the only group to have never made absurd arguments in favor of their side: the no-bodies.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2017, 08:18:51 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.
Seems like a goofy reason
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2017, 08:26:46 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

Can you explain how I'm pushing culture around? I said I think statues are inferior because they don't capture the bodyless nature of Heaven and being outside time and space, which they are from that exact perspective. Can you deny that the saints, in statue form, are more limited in teaching the viewer about their life as well as giving the impression of being bodyless? Not to mention the absolute priority of some statues of being as realistic as possible, even some going so far to dress statues with real clothes.

The Roman Church introduced statues pre-Schism, and although it caused controversy, there was no problem or schism until Pope Nicholas tried deposing Saint Photius, and then there was reunion after the death of Pope Nicholas, until Pope Leo IX started forcing Byzantine Churches in Italy to use unleavened bread and forcing Patriarch Michael Cerularius to obey him, going so far to even say it was offensive for this Patriarch to call the Pope "brother" and not "father."

And do I need to remind you that this kind of "cultural superiority" is still seen in Roman Catholic circles, who view the use of leavened bread with a reluctant sigh (as they don't fully represent the "Passover") and view the Tridentine liturgy as the "purest" liturgy completely guided by the infallible Pope (even though, despite its theological innovations over time, is absolutely beautiful and dignified, and a treasure which has been lost)? Even in Our Lady of Guadalupe's FSSP seminary, beards are absolutely forbidden (I know some weird factoids).

Iconography nonetheless is important in Orthodoxy, which is why there have been martyrs over iconography as well as an entire Ecumenical Council over the matter. To remove iconography is to remove the Saints from our lives, which is why iconoclasm is a heresy.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 08:34:17 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2017, 10:13:15 PM »
Are some Catholics bigots? Sure. Do they represent our doctrine by being like that, to the Byzantine Rite, for example? No. The infallible Pope has only defended the essentials, which transcend all cultures: God, Christ, the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Mother of God, bishops, the Mass, and the option of using images.

Rites can make rules. They're not the same as doctrine, which is universal. The Byzantine Rite can require an iconostasis; a traditional Roman Rite seminary that's not for the Capuchin friars can ban beards.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #76 on: September 14, 2017, 10:15:43 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #77 on: September 14, 2017, 10:17:24 PM »
And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.
Because the Roman Catholic Church never foisted its theological speculations as dogma onto Eastern Catholic Churches, distorting their liturgy and traditions!
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #78 on: September 14, 2017, 10:22:05 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:22:47 PM by The young fogey »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #79 on: September 14, 2017, 10:27:10 PM »
Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.
You're making my point.  Our Eastern doctrines can be shoved aside and remain unknown in the West, but the Western ones have to be affirmed in the East, even when they confuse our doctrines and liturgy.

Besides, I'm Catholic alright.  Just not a Roman Catholic.  But it's excusable for Roman Catholics to think that they are the only normative Catholics, for their Church preaches such cultural triumphalism.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:27:55 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #80 on: September 14, 2017, 10:38:02 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

I haven't seen particular statistics on Orthodox Christianity - that is something that is hard to find data on; however, to say that Roman Catholicism isn't on life support and quote on quote "Byzantine Christianity" needs a resurgence via Rome is laughable.

In 10 years, Roman Catholics will become a minority in the United States due to the amount of people who either convert or lose faith entirely, and church attendance in Roman Catholicism constantly falls year by year.

There are like no new churches opening up at all, and churches are closed nonstop. In the Roman Catholic diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Lennon was infamous for how many churches he closed - he closed 30 churches, so much so that a priest committed schism with the RCC to keep his church open, and some parishioners actually got in contact with the Vatican to put a stop to it.

And this is not to mention the various heretical bishops (like Bishop Mahoney, Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Barron, who are all heretics) as well as the abundance of offensive liturgy (some going so far to be demonic in the Charismatic movement) which all cause people to lose faith when they see all of these contradictions, which only accentuates the process.

At least in Orthodox Christianity I'm constantly hearing news of Churches being opened in Western Europe and the United States, etc., and in the case of Russia, Orthodoxy is constantly growing.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:48:28 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #81 on: September 14, 2017, 10:45:21 PM »
Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations...
I agree with you about Byzantine Catholicism, but, I'm my anecdotal experience, the ethnic Orthodox parishes seem to have a good retention of the younger generations and enjoy a much larger number of parishioners in areas which had a large influx of immigrants from majorly Orthodox countries.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #82 on: September 14, 2017, 11:37:13 PM »
In my anecdotal experience, the Greek Orthodox churches in the Philadelphia area are still around because of immigration; most of the old Slavic ones are dying (their old neighborhoods dispersed and assimilated) whilst others are like the Greeks, propped up by Russian immigration. Most of the grandkids leave. There are a couple of convert churches; from what I've been told the drift among the second generation is under way.

I never denied that the Roman Rite Catholic Church has falling numbers too, just that you can't pin Christianity's future in America on Byzantine or other Eastern Christianity.

Among Eastern Catholics in person, that is, their old ethnic rank and file with whom I worship once a month, I never find the negative attitude towards Rome that you do among online Eastern Catholics, who are usually converts on their way out of the church like one of this board's co-founders was.

Quote
But it's excusable for Roman Catholics to think that they are the only normative Catholics, for their Church preaches such cultural triumphalism.

I belong to a traditional Roman Rite parish and go to it most Sundays. We have coffee hour once a month. I have never heard this preached from the pulpit nor among our people.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:38:34 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2017, 12:08:26 AM »
Well, just because you haven't personally heard it doesn't mean it's not a thing.

You are trolling.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2017, 01:33:12 AM »
I never denied that the Roman Rite Catholic Church has falling numbers too, just that you can't pin Christianity's future in America on Byzantine or other Eastern Christianity.
Christianity has no future in America.  America is Europe delayed by a generation.

Quote from: The young fogey
Quote
But it's excusable for Roman Catholics to think that they are the only normative Catholics, for their Church preaches such cultural triumphalism.

I belong to a traditional Roman Rite parish and go to it most Sundays. We have coffee hour once a month. I have never heard this preached from the pulpit nor among our people.
Read the Catechism of your Church lately?  8)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 01:35:43 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2017, 03:27:51 AM »
young fogey, leave it at that, it´s no use.
After all, this is an Orthodox echo chamber. People come here to get confirmation on what they are already convinced about.
Or they come here as they are on the verge of leaving the Catholic Church (like Sharbel), but still struggling somewhat,
and trying to gather more arguments, just to convince themselves.
Then the usual mumbo-jumbo about how icons are superior to statues as they lack (!) a dimension.
Cultural chauvinism, indeed. This is an advantage of our Church: We do not endorse in it so much.
We have a lot of icons in our home, patron saints of the family members, nativity, Kazanskaya and others.
They are beautiful indeed and I pray before them regularly.
We also have a statue of St. Joseph from a Catholic place of pilgrimage.
When I pray before the Kazanskaya, I beg the Theotokos to pray for our family.
When I pray before the statue of St. Joseph, I ask him the same.
The important thing is that both icons and statues bring the saints into our lives,
remind us of their example and our goal.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2017, 04:44:37 AM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support.

ROFL.

That is a ridiculous assertion.  All of the EO churches except GoArch have experienced growth, including a substantial influx of converts.  The most impressive attendance  umbers relative to membership are in the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese, which separated from the Catholic Church due to Roman Rite Imperialism (the Ruthenian married clergy were denied the right to serve the liturgy while remaining wed and having full marital relations with their wives, by the Latin Rite bishops of Propaganda, which controlled America at the time, for fear it would promote an insurrection in terms of priestly celibacy or cause people to want to join the Byzantine Catholic Church rather than the Roman Rite).

Byzantine Catholicism might be dying; I hope it isn't, but it could be.

However, the Eastern Orthodox Church is exceedingly healthy, not only among the ethnic Orthodox, but among converts.  The only EO church that is having problems is GoArch, which is notorious for having many parishes which are more Greek social clubs than anything, parishes which are hostile to converts, and which also is often said, and has even been sued in Canada, for discriminating against non-Greek clergy.  Because the Greek Orthodox Church is so large, the statistics of its self-inflicted decay conceal the growth in the other jurisdictions, growth coming from both converts and "cradle Orthodox."

My Syriac Orthodox parish fills a building, with many young people and children, which we share with an OCA parish, which has even more children, and more converts than cradle members!

Before I moved to my current locale, I attended a Coptic parish that was literally packed to the rafters.  The benches of the Psaltis in the Solea were crammed with young men and boys.  Throngs of Copts descend on St. Anthony's monastery.  New Coptic and Syriac and Ethiopian parishes are continually opening.  In the Metropolis of Los Angeles, His Eminence Serapion has opened new English-speaking parishes to cater to a vibrant mix of Coptic youth and converts, and there are convert priests including a "Fr. Bishoy Jones" (or some typically Anglo Saxon name, I forget it, but Mor, AN and I recently noticed it in the OO forum and laughed with joy).

Your claims of a dying Byzantine church and a dying Coptic church are baseless.

The Assyrian Church of the East, and from what I hear, your own Chaldean Catholic Church, are also thriving.  A reunion of the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East is likely to occur as soon as the situation in Iraq stabilizes and His Beatitude the Catholicos of the Ancient Church of the East reposes.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2017, 05:00:01 AM »
young fogey, leave it at that, it´s no use.
After all, this is an Orthodox echo chamber. People come here to get confirmation on what they are already convinced about.
Or they come here as they are on the verge of leaving the Catholic Church (like Sharbel), but still struggling somewhat,
and trying to gather more arguments, just to convince themselves.
Then the usual mumbo-jumbo about how icons are superior to statues as they lack (!) a dimension.
Cultural chauvinism, indeed. This is an advantage of our Church: We do not endorse in it so much.
We have a lot of icons in our home, patron saints of the family members, nativity, Kazanskaya and others.
They are beautiful indeed and I pray before them regularly.
We also have a statue of St. Joseph from a Catholic place of pilgrimage.
When I pray before the Kazanskaya, I beg the Theotokos to pray for our family.
When I pray before the statue of St. Joseph, I ask him the same.
The important thing is that both icons and statues bring the saints into our lives,
remind us of their example and our goal.

Icons have a dimension.  They are superior to statues; your own church historically thought so, as the surviving iconography in Romanesque and Gothic churches, on the few remaining Rood Screens, and in the ancient stained glass windows, attests.

Statues are problematic for purposes of veneration; as visual art however they are completely acceptable as decoration.

We can draw a diatinction between religious, decorative artwork and icons made for veneration. 

Lighting candles before statues is theologically a stumbling block, which facilitate the terrible ravages of Calvinist iconoclasm.  The Calvinistas relentlessly bash both the Orthodox Church and the RCC; I formed a debate club comprised largely of Catholics, on another forum, to defend the RCC and the Orthodox Church from these unfounded attacks.  The Catholic Church could do a lot to make my lofe easier, by being more like the Orthodox Church.

I daresay if the Byzantine Rite, the West Syriac Rite, the Coptic Rite or a synthesis thereof, were adopted as the standard liturgy, replacing the Novus Ordo Rite, at all Roman Catholic churches in North America, except those using the Tridentine mass, it would have prevented a lot of problems and fixed several others.

I believe the Roman Catholic Church should crack down on secular unmarried clergy.  Secular priests should, as a rule, be married.  Otherwise, unmarried clergy should be regular, a member of a religious order, such as canons regular, friars or monastics.  This is the model of the Orthodox church.  There aren't enough people to provide vocations for secular clergy these days who will commit to authentic celibacy; too many priests are "in the closet."

Monasticism doesnt prevent homosexuality, but it does provide more vectors for its detection and control, through monastic supervision. 

I reject the idea that clerical celibacy, an ancient tradition of the Latin Rite, was directly responsible for the paedophilia crisis or needs to be abolished.  Rather, I believe that in, for instance, the early 20th century, or the 19th, or earlier, pederasty among Catholic priests was an extreme rarity.  I believe rather the influx of pederasts stemmed from the liberalization of the RCC with the Novus Ordo Missae and the breakdown of ecclesiastical discipline in the 1970s.  I hold Pope Paul VI primarily responsible for the crisis.


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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2017, 05:19:03 AM »
young fogey, leave it at that, it´s no use.
After all, this is an Orthodox echo chamber. People come here to get confirmation on what they are already convinced about.
Or they come here as they are on the verge of leaving the Catholic Church (like Sharbel), but still struggling somewhat,
and trying to gather more arguments, just to convince themselves.



This is simply untrue.  OCNet has provided a home for a huge number of Byzantine Catholics who were banned from Catholic Answers.  Several Byzantine Catholic members make extremely valuable and important contributions to our forum.  For example, DeaconLance, who is exceptionally knowledgeable regarding the liturgy.   The original name of this forum was byzantines.net, before it expanded to focus on Eastern and all Oriental Orthodox rites.  However, Roman Catholics enjoy a protected status which does not extend to other sects.  For example, members are required to call Roman Catholic clergy such as Pope Francis by his appropriate ecclesiastical title; referring to him as "Bergoglio" is prohibited, just as we cannot refer to Orthodox clergy except using appropriate titles. 

Furthermore, in special consideration to the feelings of Byzantine Catholics, it is absolutely prohibited to refer to them using the "U word".  This is a special protection, established by the extremely caring moderators, many of whom are clergy, for the safeguarding of the sensitivities of Catholic members and to promote an ecumenical spirit. 

I am a member of another forum, the largest Christian forum on the Net, and there no such rules exist, so that Eastern Catholics, and Catholics in general, are continually subjected to abusive language.  People even get away with, in certain contexts, referring to the Pope as Anti-Christ or the Beast, which is a ridiculous double standard in the context of the rules of that forum, which is poorly and bureaucratically moderated (by people including me, I am ashamed to say).  OCNet is superior in every way.

Other Roman Catholic members make valuable contributions to a broad range of debates, such as Papist, and also yourself lepanto, and historically, the Young Fogey.

The fact that we have two Catholics on the forum at present on the verge of conversion to Orthodoxy should not surprise you.  This is an Orthodox forum.  But it is not an echo chamber.  You can challenge the Orthodox Church on anything you want.

I pray that you do not, however.

Its much nicer when Orthodox and Catholic members focus on shared values and ecumenical reunion, and how to achieve it.

A few months ago I called for the OO to attempt an immediate and full restoration of communion with the RCC as it presently stands, conditional only on the RCC implicitly, and only implicitly, recognizing our Patriarchs as his equals, the full autocephaly of our holy synods and the independence of our patriarchs and bishops from the Pope or Papal decrees, e.g. Ex cathedra statements by the Pope would not automatically become binding doctrine on the OO.

I believe Pope Francis would probably do that deal, given his attempt to do an spectacularly ill advised deal with Pope Tawadros II and Archbishop Justin Welby of Canterbury  concerning the dating of Easter.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2017, 06:05:58 AM »
Lepanto: +1. I'm like you; I'll add I keep the rites separate. All Byzantine Orthodox prayers at the Russian icon corner (which is all Orthodox but no post-schism saints), for example. You don't have to, but I prefer it.

Alpha60: Proof? All I see are typical Orthodox assertions. (I admit I don't have numbers but they're easy to get.) By the way, you got the details of the (to me, heartbreaking because people left the church and it was our fault) founding of ACROD wrong. Some not-very-nice clergy got Rome to enforce a rule banning, in North America, the Eastern practice of ordaining the married; it didn't affect the married priests already here. (We don't transfer men to different canonical churches just because they want to be married priests.) The church can make such rules but we really shouldn't have done this. I understand the rule's quietly been revoked but the damage is done. That said, given the losses due to assimilation among the Orthodox, we can't assume what Protestants do, that married clergy are a cure-all for a lack of vocations and of parishioners.

My guess is you're still seeing a slow, steady decline among the Orthodox, the Byzantine Catholics, and the Polish National Catholic Church (in most ethnic American-born Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic families I've known, the grandkids have left), only with the Orthodox you see an uptick of non-ethnic converts but the anecdote I read is their second generation is drifting away too. The convert boomlet seems very clerical too: second-career clergy, etc. So the OCA pretends to be a universal church by making non-Slavs their metropolitans. So a few more clergy aren't ethnic; a flash in the pan. Here in Philadelphia, the Greek community is immigrant, the Russian likewise though largely secular or Jewish but there is an uptick in some Russian Orthodox parishes including my former one, and the old Slavic neighborhoods (from before World War I; read: Ruthenian, Catholic and Orthodox) and their churches are basically dead; they've cleared out and died off. (One such Orthodox church is kept afloat by its yearly weekend festival.) The Antiochian convert places are in the suburbs.

There is no such thing as the Orthodox Church. There are Orthodox dioceses, which are sisters of Catholic dioceses in that both have real bishops and the Mass. There is an Orthodox small-t tradition, the Byzantine Rite, which again I happily participate in, in a way of course the Orthodox don't credit. But in the sense of the church founded by Christ with teaching authority, there is no Orthodox Church; the Catholic Church as a whole has no sisters. Your bishops are bishops but they have no claim on me. (They don't have jurisdiction like Catholic bishops; their dioceses are out of communion with us.) Good Orthodox don't believe our baptisms, ordinations, Masses, etc. are valid in themselves, so fair enough. None of which is to claim that born Orthodox aren't acting in good conscience or are hellbound; I have no right to say that.

Got to give the Wild West of Facebook pages credit; they're not churchy echo chambers.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 06:13:34 AM by The young fogey »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2017, 10:24:21 AM »
There are like no new churches opening up at all,
Except where they are. I know of several.

Of course the RCC is losing some members as the culture secularizes. Everyone is. Including us.

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2017, 10:38:38 AM »
Lepanto: +1. I'm like you; I'll add I keep the rites separate. All Byzantine Orthodox prayers at the Russian icon corner (which is all Orthodox but no post-schism saints), for example. You don't have to, but I prefer it.

Alpha60: Proof? All I see are typical Orthodox assertions. (I admit I don't have numbers but they're easy to get.) By the way, you got the details of the (to me, heartbreaking because people left the church and it was our fault) founding of ACROD wrong. Some not-very-nice clergy got Rome to enforce a rule banning, in North America, the Eastern practice of ordaining the married; it didn't affect the married priests already here. (We don't transfer men to different canonical churches just because they want to be married priests.) The church can make such rules but we really shouldn't have done this. I understand the rule's quietly been revoked but the damage is done. That said, given the losses due to assimilation among the Orthodox, we can't assume what Protestants do, that married clergy are a cure-all for a lack of vocations and of parishioners.

My guess is you're still seeing a slow, steady decline among the Orthodox, the Byzantine Catholics, and the Polish National Catholic Church (in most ethnic American-born Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic families I've known, the grandkids have left), only with the Orthodox you see an uptick of non-ethnic converts but the anecdote I read is their second generation is drifting away too. The convert boomlet seems very clerical too: second-career clergy, etc. So the OCA pretends to be a universal church by making non-Slavs their metropolitans. So a few more clergy aren't ethnic; a flash in the pan. Here in Philadelphia, the Greek community is immigrant, the Russian likewise though largely secular or Jewish but there is an uptick in some Russian Orthodox parishes including my former one, and the old Slavic neighborhoods (from before World War I; read: Ruthenian, Catholic and Orthodox) and their churches are basically dead; they've cleared out and died off. (One such Orthodox church is kept afloat by its yearly weekend festival.) The Antiochian convert places are in the suburbs.

There is no such thing as the Orthodox Church. There are Orthodox dioceses, which are sisters of Catholic dioceses in that both have real bishops and the Mass. There is an Orthodox small-t tradition, the Byzantine Rite, which again I happily participate in, in a way of course the Orthodox don't credit. But in the sense of the church founded by Christ with teaching authority, there is no Orthodox Church; the Catholic Church as a whole has no sisters. Your bishops are bishops but they have no claim on me. (They don't have jurisdiction like Catholic bishops; their dioceses are out of communion with us.) Good Orthodox don't believe our baptisms, ordinations, Masses, etc. are valid in themselves, so fair enough. None of which is to claim that born Orthodox aren't acting in good conscience or are hellbound; I have no right to say that.

Got to give the Wild West of Facebook pages credit; they're not churchy echo chambers.

I've seen the numbers on ACROD attendance, and I will get them; we have one member who is ACROD who might know.

The Coptic church is experiencing growth and opening new parishes.  Just visit the websites of the Diocese of Los Angeles or the Diocese of the South, or call a Coptic priest.  I suggest calling Fr. Markos Hanna of St. Michael the Archangel Coptic Church in Simi Valley, a friend of mine.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2017, 10:44:34 AM »
There is no such thing as the Orthodox Church. There are Orthodox dioceses, which are sisters of Catholic dioceses in that both have real bishops and the Mass.

There is no global universal church apart from the diocese. That's basic Christian ecclesiology. Even your catechism recognizes this in its mangled, incoherent way.
Quote
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2017, 10:53:05 AM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2017, 01:05:25 PM »
One could begin to think, after one had read enough recent posts, and if one were uncharitable, that Mr. Fogey's religion is mainly himself.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2017, 01:08:40 PM »
Well, if I look like Milhouse Van Houten trapped in a Raymond Chandler novel I'd worship myself too.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2017, 03:04:27 PM »
There are like no new churches opening up at all,
Except where they are. I know of several.

Of course the RCC is losing some members as the culture secularizes. Everyone is. Including us.

I should've added *from my anecdotal experience
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2017, 07:22:07 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2017, 07:38:32 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

Blind as a bat.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2017, 08:41:17 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

I haven't seen particular statistics on Orthodox Christianity - that is something that is hard to find data on; however, to say that Roman Catholicism isn't on life support and quote on quote "Byzantine Christianity" needs a resurgence via Rome is laughable.

In 10 years, Roman Catholics will become a minority in the United States due to the amount of people who either convert or lose faith entirely, and church attendance in Roman Catholicism constantly falls year by year.

There are like no new churches opening up at all, and churches are closed nonstop. In the Roman Catholic diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Lennon was infamous for how many churches he closed - he closed 30 churches, so much so that a priest committed schism with the RCC to keep his church open, and some parishioners actually got in contact with the Vatican to put a stop to it.

And this is not to mention the various heretical bishops (like Bishop Mahoney, Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Barron, who are all heretics) as well as the abundance of offensive liturgy (some going so far to be demonic in the Charismatic movement) which all cause people to lose faith when they see all of these contradictions, which only accentuates the process.

At least in Orthodox Christianity I'm constantly hearing news of Churches being opened in Western Europe and the United States, etc., and in the case of Russia, Orthodoxy is constantly growing.
LivenotoneviL,

It is an ad hominem, and thus a breach of forum rules, to refer to individuals as "heretics." Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

All the best,

Antonis
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How has Antonis not become an Old Calendarist yet?
I thought he had, a few posts ago.

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2017, 10:45:38 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

I haven't seen particular statistics on Orthodox Christianity - that is something that is hard to find data on; however, to say that Roman Catholicism isn't on life support and quote on quote "Byzantine Christianity" needs a resurgence via Rome is laughable.

In 10 years, Roman Catholics will become a minority in the United States due to the amount of people who either convert or lose faith entirely, and church attendance in Roman Catholicism constantly falls year by year.

There are like no new churches opening up at all, and churches are closed nonstop. In the Roman Catholic diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Lennon was infamous for how many churches he closed - he closed 30 churches, so much so that a priest committed schism with the RCC to keep his church open, and some parishioners actually got in contact with the Vatican to put a stop to it.

And this is not to mention the various heretical bishops (like Bishop Mahoney, Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Barron, who are all heretics) as well as the abundance of offensive liturgy (some going so far to be demonic in the Charismatic movement) which all cause people to lose faith when they see all of these contradictions, which only accentuates the process.

At least in Orthodox Christianity I'm constantly hearing news of Churches being opened in Western Europe and the United States, etc., and in the case of Russia, Orthodoxy is constantly growing.
LivenotoneviL,

It is an ad hominem, and thus a breach of forum rules, to refer to individuals as "heretics." Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

All the best,

Antonis
Section Moderator


Welp....shoot...my bad.

I generally try to avoid ad-hominem attacks, but I didn't realize that calling someone a "heretic" is forbidden.
Sorry!

The reason I called them this is because these bishops in particular have not only promoted homosexuality in the Roman church, but have taken part in LGBT parades, have participated in apathetic ecumenism, have attacked liturgy, have wasted millions of dollars on nontraditional architecture with pagan inspired rituals, and have even tried to put Lutheranism in a positive light - one even went so far as to call Martin Luther a "vessel of grace."

These were my reasons, which I see as heterodox - but it still isn't appropriate, so I apologize.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:51:29 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #101 on: September 15, 2017, 10:47:27 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

Blind as a bat.

What are your objections to this "style" of iconography? I think a lot of 12th century and 13th century Roman iconography has a lot of influence from the East....and considering that, although inferior, many realistic Russian icons are used and allowed for veneration, how is this wrong?

Does the emphasis on the "color blue" stir the passions? (just pulling your leg by the way).

By the way, this icon comes from the "Beatus of Facundus," and they are paintings of the Apocalypse of John. These icons are pre-schism by the way.
https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:53:26 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #102 on: September 15, 2017, 10:56:00 PM »
Oh, my bad - I didn't see him advocate statues.

Even then, I'm still split on whether or not statues are acceptable to venerate.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:56:44 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #103 on: September 15, 2017, 11:28:01 PM »
However, statues ... aren't as capable of educating people while maintaining theological soundness, and thus - while I don't believe strictly forbidden, are often seen as inferior.

And we're back to this: pushing the culture not as simply good (obviously I agree!) but superior is exactly what turned me off Orthodoxy forever.

The liturgical statues of the Catholic Church are one of the main contributors to Protestant iconoclasm.  They lit the fuse that resulted in the Calvinist bomb.

That's just more Byzantine chauvinism.

Guys, Byzantine Christianity in America's on life support. I don't wish it so; I participate in Byzantine Christianity. But it's still happening. It may well be gone here in a few more generations. Would you dare say there would then be no more real Christians left here? (To include the Copts et al., let's say all Eastern Christianity in America fades away in three generations. It does.)

Sharbel, you don't sound like a Catholic (anymore). We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

I haven't seen particular statistics on Orthodox Christianity - that is something that is hard to find data on; however, to say that Roman Catholicism isn't on life support and quote on quote "Byzantine Christianity" needs a resurgence via Rome is laughable.

In 10 years, Roman Catholics will become a minority in the United States due to the amount of people who either convert or lose faith entirely, and church attendance in Roman Catholicism constantly falls year by year.

There are like no new churches opening up at all, and churches are closed nonstop. In the Roman Catholic diocese of Cleveland, Bishop Lennon was infamous for how many churches he closed - he closed 30 churches, so much so that a priest committed schism with the RCC to keep his church open, and some parishioners actually got in contact with the Vatican to put a stop to it.

And this is not to mention the various heretical bishops (like Bishop Mahoney, Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Barron, who are all heretics) as well as the abundance of offensive liturgy (some going so far to be demonic in the Charismatic movement) which all cause people to lose faith when they see all of these contradictions, which only accentuates the process.

At least in Orthodox Christianity I'm constantly hearing news of Churches being opened in Western Europe and the United States, etc., and in the case of Russia, Orthodoxy is constantly growing.
LivenotoneviL,

It is an ad hominem, and thus a breach of forum rules, to refer to individuals as "heretics." Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

All the best,

Antonis
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Welp....shoot...my bad.

I generally try to avoid ad-hominem attacks, but I didn't realize that calling someone a "heretic" is forbidden.
Sorry!

The reason I called them this is because these bishops in particular have not only promoted homosexuality in the Roman church, but have taken part in LGBT parades, have participated in apathetic ecumenism, have attacked liturgy, have wasted millions of dollars on nontraditional architecture with pagan inspired rituals, and have even tried to put Lutheranism in a positive light - one even went so far as to call Martin Luther a "vessel of grace."

These were my reasons, which I see as heterodox - but it still isn't appropriate, so I apologize.
LivenotoneviL,

It is a breach of forum rules to address moderation within a thread, with PM being the proper form of communication. Seeing as you do not appear to have made this mistake before and have generally conducted yourself well, I will assume your infraction was due to ignorance of this fact, but please watch this in the future to avoid penalty. If you have any questions regarding this policy, do not hesitate to PM me.

 ;)

All the best,

Antonis
Section Moderator

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:28:26 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #104 on: September 15, 2017, 11:40:52 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

Blind as a bat.

What are your objections to this "style" of iconography? I think a lot of 12th century and 13th century Roman iconography has a lot of influence from the East....and considering that, although inferior, many realistic Russian icons are used and allowed for veneration, how is this wrong?

Does the emphasis on the "color blue" stir the passions? (just pulling your leg by the way).

By the way, this icon comes from the "Beatus of Facundus," and they are paintings of the Apocalypse of John. These icons are pre-schism by the way.
https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Are you asking me? I think they're extraordinary and very appropriate and can't thank you enough for bringing them to our attention.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 11:41:14 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2017, 12:27:21 AM »
After all, this is an Orthodox echo chamber. People come here to get confirmation on what they are already convinced about.
Or they come here as they are on the verge of leaving the Catholic Church (like Sharbel), but still struggling somewhat,
and trying to gather more arguments, just to convince themselves.
This is simply untrue.  OCNet has provided a home for a huge number of Byzantine Catholics who were banned from Catholic Answers...
Abstracting @Lepanto arrogating to himself supernatural powers, his reaction and @Young Fogey's are typical: if you're not Latin Catholic, you'll have to convince him that you, an Eastern Catholic, are a Catholic at all.  Moreover, if you do not subscribe to the Latin theological traditions, many of which were turned into dogma, you definitely are not a Catholic. 

The street from the East to Rome is one way.  So, evidently, I feel more comfortable around other Eastern Christians who don't read me the riot act when I share the Eastern traditions of my Church, even if some of them are foreign to the Orthodox.

Every pope of living memory, from JXXIII to FI, have admitted that the greatest obstacle to union between Rome and the Orthodox Churches is the papacy.  Understood not as the primacy of Peter, but as the monarchy of the bishop of Rome.  Unfortunately, most card carrying Latin Catholics exhibit their Catholicism more on the card than on their hearts.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:27:57 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2017, 12:29:10 AM »
Of course the RCC is losing some members as the culture secularizes. Everyone is. Including us.
Every Christian Church (or church) is shrinking!  It should not surprise any Christian, much less brag about anecdotal or ineffective growth, as Our Lord said that, as His coming again nears, Faith would be hardly found (v. Lk 18:8 ).

It's not science, it's not politics, it's the abandon of a moral life that saps the Church of Christians.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:29:42 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2017, 11:05:16 AM »
@Sharbel: I think this is a misunderstanding. You don't have to prove to anyone that Eastern Catholic is at least just as Catholic as Roman. I would claim that your people often had to pay a much higher price for being in communion with the bishop of Rome than most in the West. Yet they remained true.
But you yourself wrote in several other threads - if I remember correctly - how you were disappointed with the current state of affairs in the Catholic church, and found yourself wondering whether the true Church could be the Orthodox after all. Correct me if I got it wrong.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2017, 11:58:06 AM »
@Sharbel: I think this is a misunderstanding. You don't have to prove to anyone that Eastern Catholic is at least just as Catholic as Roman. I would claim that your people often had to pay a much higher price for being in communion with the bishop of Rome than most in the West. Yet they remained true. But you yourself wrote in several other threads - if I remember correctly - how you were disappointed with the current state of affairs in the Catholic church, and found yourself wondering whether the true Church could be the Orthodox after all. Correct me if I got it wrong.
I'm not disillusioned with the Catholic Church, just tired of the Roman tyranny that stifles the Maronite Church of living her ancient traditions (though we ourselves are guilty of the same).  But, absent the Roman yoke, the Maronite Church is theologically, historically and geographically more kindred to the Orthodox Churches.

Perhaps, in my efforts to straddle my East and the tutelar West, I'm bridging this gap at a personal level.  If I cannot change the Roman Church to let the Maronite Church be fully Eastern, I came to realize that I can change this Maronite to be fully Eastern.

In the last year, I've found the faith of my infant baptism being nourished by Orthodoxy answering my deepest spiritual yearnings.  These yearnings, sewed largely by my Maronite Church but also by the Catholic Church, cannot be answered by the Roman Church or by the limits that she imposes on the Eastern Catholic Churches.  The faith of those seeds is the Catholic Faith of the Apostles and of the Church Fathers and I find it more clearly, more purely, more fully in Orthodoxy.  Surely, this same Faith can be found in its Latin articulation, but regrettably obfuscated by foreign accretions, which increased dramatically after the Great Schism, after Rome found itself unchecked by the other Patriarchs.  More problematically, it's more than intellectual obfuscation, because this Faith demands being lived out.  But how can it be lived out when arbitrary limits were imposed on it as a staple of vassalage? Fidelity to Rome means to de facto deny the traditions transmitted by my Church in favor of those of the Latin Church.  It means, as Winston of 1984 fame at last agreed, 2 + 2 = 5.

In short, I'm disappointed at the state of affairs of the Maronite Church after the price it's paid to be in communion with the Roman Church.  And if the union desired by the Lord between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches is not meant to happen in my lifetime, it can still happen in my life.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:02:30 PM by Sharbel »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2017, 11:55:44 PM »
Sharbel, you've crossed a line, accusing me of Latin chauvinism, but my recent posts show that's not so: I don't do latinizations at the Ukrainian Catholic church I go to or in my icon corner (a prayer rule using only Orthodox forms), and I'm hip to various theological methods, such as Eastern ones, being different from each other but all good. Nor is imagining Orthodox Western rites that don't copy us much post-schism or copy the Byzantine Rite an example of that. Imagining a Western church that doesn't copy the East is no more bigoted than imagining an Eastern church that doesn't copy the West.

Getting down to business:

Quote
many of which were turned into dogma

In other words you don't accept our teachings (anymore); you don't want to be Catholic anymore. In this game, our teachings are merely "Latin."

Well, you've come to the right place. A few folks have walked out of the church here and in similar online fora.

Arguably it's better to leave us than stay and be a hypocrite, signed onto teachings you no longer believe, and/or stay and confuse the faithful by denying those teachings.

Your will be done, I guess.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2017, 12:18:34 AM »
Sharbel, you've crossed a line, accusing me of Latin chauvinism...
That's just your foggy imagination. :)

Quote from: The young fogey
Getting down to business:

Quote
many of which were turned into dogma
In other words you don't accept our teachings (anymore); you don't want to be Catholic anymore. In this game, our teachings are merely "Latin."
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, for instance, is merely Latin, as is its cause: the dogma that human nature became sinful since the Fall.  Both ideas are foreign to Eastern Christians, including the Catholic ones, finding no expression in our liturgies.

And your conclusion showing me the highway since I don't get the Latin way is yet another confirmation of life as an Eastern Catholic.  Let those who have ears hear it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 12:19:25 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2017, 08:15:41 AM »
@Sharbel: I think this is a misunderstanding. You don't have to prove to anyone that Eastern Catholic is at least just as Catholic as Roman. I would claim that your people often had to pay a much higher price for being in communion with the bishop of Rome than most in the West. Yet they remained true. But you yourself wrote in several other threads - if I remember correctly - how you were disappointed with the current state of affairs in the Catholic church, and found yourself wondering whether the true Church could be the Orthodox after all. Correct me if I got it wrong.
I'm not disillusioned with the Catholic Church, just tired of the Roman tyranny that stifles the Maronite Church of living her ancient traditions (though we ourselves are guilty of the same).  But, absent the Roman yoke, the Maronite Church is theologically, historically and geographically more kindred to the Orthodox Churches.

Perhaps, in my efforts to straddle my East and the tutelar West, I'm bridging this gap at a personal level.  If I cannot change the Roman Church to let the Maronite Church be fully Eastern, I came to realize that I can change this Maronite to be fully Eastern.

In the last year, I've found the faith of my infant baptism being nourished by Orthodoxy answering my deepest spiritual yearnings.  These yearnings, sewed largely by my Maronite Church but also by the Catholic Church, cannot be answered by the Roman Church or by the limits that she imposes on the Eastern Catholic Churches.  The faith of those seeds is the Catholic Faith of the Apostles and of the Church Fathers and I find it more clearly, more purely, more fully in Orthodoxy.  Surely, this same Faith can be found in its Latin articulation, but regrettably obfuscated by foreign accretions, which increased dramatically after the Great Schism, after Rome found itself unchecked by the other Patriarchs.  More problematically, it's more than intellectual obfuscation, because this Faith demands being lived out.  But how can it be lived out when arbitrary limits were imposed on it as a staple of vassalage? Fidelity to Rome means to de facto deny the traditions transmitted by my Church in favor of those of the Latin Church.  It means, as Winston of 1984 fame at last agreed, 2 + 2 = 5.

In short, I'm disappointed at the state of affairs of the Maronite Church after the price it's paid to be in communion with the Roman Church.  And if the union desired by the Lord between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches is not meant to happen in my lifetime, it can still happen in my life.

Sharbel, I'm gonna have to be that guy - but you know, both the Orthodox Church and the RCC both state that you cannot be a member of both churches "invisibly." You have to, at the end of the day, choose one or the other. The Orthodox Church says you have to accept all of the dogmas, otherwise you won't find salvation - and the Roman Catholic Church says you have to accept all the dogmas, otherwise you won't find salvation. Both churches have different dogmas, and the Maronite church requires acceptance of Roman dogmas.

Remember what Christ said?

"Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." (Matthew 12:25)

"No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24)

Discerning which is the True Church which Christ established is a hard, long, and time-consuming task, and I don't doubt the amount of pain you have gone through in your empirical and spiritual research - but at the end of the day, all you can do is try your hardest, pray A LOT, and have Faith in God above, and choose that Church.

I know you are in a unique situation because the Maronite liturgy is unique and the Maronite people have had a unique and terrible past (in terms of persecution) - but at the end of the day, you just have to have Faith and choose the Church.

I just don't think it is spiritually healthy to be a Maronite but have Orthodox beliefs.


Of course, there's the Antiochian Church with its beautiful Arabic Liturgy, and
Western Rite Orthodoxy is an option, and - while I don't personally recommend it myself as an Eastern Orthodox, because I'm not ENTIRELY sure if the Oriental churches have Grace or not (I hope so and think so) - the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is similar in liturgy to the Maronite Church, is an option (I wouldn't take that risk though).

I'll pray for you :)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 08:19:54 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2017, 03:28:09 PM »
Because icons aren't Western.
Nonsense:


That makes me remember of the beautiful illuminations of Beatus de Facundus by monk Beatus de Liébana in medieval Spain.



https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/the-beatus-of-facundus/

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

It should be pointed out that if you look at the interior of a typical WRO parish, you will see these icons, and a traditional Rood Screen.   The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.  This means it is as Byzantinized as the Anglican Communion.

The Anglican Communion also increasingly uses Byzantine style icons, for example, there are several in the pillars in front of the altar in the apse of Westminster Abbey, at least four, but I believe eight, one on each side.  Or at least there were during the Royal Wedding.  Many Anglican parishes feature even more extensive Byzantine artwork.

Conversely, many Oriental Orthodox parishes use Western-style icons.  I was looking at pictures of icons uploaded in the Western Icons thread posted by Livetonoevil, and the first thing I thought was, "I've seen that in Oriental churches."

The icons that decorate the mitre of the Coptic Pope and the mitres of his Bishop, the icons that decorate the Bema in very many Armenian Orthodox churches, the icons decorating the mitre of the Ethiopian Patriarch, and most of the iconography in Syriac Orthodox Churches, period, are Western style.

For that matter, the Coptic Monastery of St. Anthony in Yermo, CA, features a Roman Catholic style statue of the Virgin Mary in front of the main Church of St. Anthony, although all of the icons inside the three churches at the main monastery (the tiny, ornate Church of St. Abanoub, the medium sized Church of St. Anthony, which has two or three altars and is used most frequently, and the massive Cathedral of St. Moses the Black) all feature Coptic icons.  Western and Byzantine icons along with a curtain featuring a Coptic icon of St. Paul the Hermit do appear in the Chapel of St. Paul the Hermit at Holy Resurrection Monastery, an attached monastery which serves as the main retreat house, and which used to be a Byzantine Catholic monastery, and before that, it was a Franciscan convent, so it also features beautiful gardens with a station of the cross, and a large outdoor amphitheatre for holding outdoor liturgies.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2017, 04:23:34 PM »

Marvelous! If WRO stuck to that and some tasteful medieval statues (the kind of thing many Anglicans like; obviously related to us but not aping us) instead of putting Byzantine icons everywhere, I'd be impressed.

It should be pointed out that if you look at the interior of a typical WRO parish, you will see these icons, and a traditional Rood Screen.   The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.  This means it is as Byzantinized as the Anglican Communion.

The Anglican Communion also increasingly uses Byzantine style icons, for example, there are several in the pillars in front of the altar in the apse of Westminster Abbey, at least four, but I believe eight, one on each side.  Or at least there were during the Royal Wedding.  Many Anglican parishes feature even more extensive Byzantine artwork.

Conversely, many Oriental Orthodox parishes use Western-style icons.  I was looking at pictures of icons uploaded in the Western Icons thread posted by Livetonoevil, and the first thing I thought was, "I've seen that in Oriental churches."

The icons that decorate the mitre of the Coptic Pope and the mitres of his Bishop, the icons that decorate the Bema in very many Armenian Orthodox churches, the icons decorating the mitre of the Ethiopian Patriarch, and most of the iconography in Syriac Orthodox Churches, period, are Western style.

For that matter, the Coptic Monastery of St. Anthony in Yermo, CA, features a Roman Catholic style statue of the Virgin Mary in front of the main Church of St. Anthony, although all of the icons inside the three churches at the main monastery (the tiny, ornate Church of St. Abanoub, the medium sized Church of St. Anthony, which has two or three altars and is used most frequently, and the massive Cathedral of St. Moses the Black) all feature Coptic icons.  Western and Byzantine icons along with a curtain featuring a Coptic icon of St. Paul the Hermit do appear in the Chapel of St. Paul the Hermit at Holy Resurrection Monastery, an attached monastery which serves as the main retreat house, and which used to be a Byzantine Catholic monastery, and before that, it was a Franciscan convent, so it also features beautiful gardens with a station of the cross, and a large outdoor amphitheatre for holding outdoor liturgies.

I've also seen Byzantine icons inside of traditional Roman Catholic churches as well.



I've even been to a church (Holy Family Catholic Church) which had nuns selling Byzantine icons.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 04:31:47 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2017, 04:31:09 PM »
Was that a self-portrait?
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2017, 04:33:01 PM »
Was that a self-portrait?

Yeah, I wanted to get an image of this church - but I realized I accidentally posted the comment without typing anything, and as such, I rushed and took a screenshot of a YouTube video.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2017, 04:55:01 PM »
Pictures of virtually every WRO church show them mimicking the Byzantine Rite with those icons, lamps, etc., not using Western art such as Beatus de Facundus. The "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look. I get the point about Roman Rite Catholics and Anglicans using these things but you can tell it's not quite the imitation you see among WRO.

Quote
The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.

If your bishops agreed with John of Shanghai and San Francisco there wouldn't be any byzantinizations. There are Catholic churches that aren't latinized.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2017, 07:30:58 PM »
Pictures of virtually every WRO church show them mimicking the Byzantine Rite with those icons, lamps, etc., not using Western art such as Beatus de Facundus. The "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look. I get the point about Roman Rite Catholics and Anglicans using these things but you can tell it's not quite the imitation you see among WRO.

Quote
The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.

If your bishops agreed with John of Shanghai and San Francisco there wouldn't be any byzantinizations. There are Catholic churches that aren't latinized.

I'm sorry that Gothic and Romanesque icons and iconography aren't in high demand for Orthodox Christians to venerate....or even Roman Catholics. Not to mention that the idea of Western Rite Orthodoxy is highly, highly controversial for some conservative Orthodox members.

It's the reason why there is a schism with the Western Rite Orthodox Church of Paris - as soon as the Russian Orthodox Church tried to phase out Western Rite and replace it with Saint John Chrysostom, they broke communion with the Russian Orthodox Church and are now, tragically, a vangate church (can't some Church like Antioch just pick them up?). It's still very controversial for some bishops - and even within Western Orthodoxy itself there is a lot of controversy as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

For example, Antioch has adopted some post-schism practices of the Roman church - which, although not theologically incorrect, isn't like the pre-schism Western Church and is the product of heterodox theologians - while ROCOR has been much more strict on what is acceptable. For example, the six candles on the altar was a Counter Reformation innovation, which is completely acceptable within Antioch, but not within ROCOR - in fact, in ROCOR, it is forbidden. Another thing, for example, is Eucharistic adoration - something permitted in Antioch, but not allowed in ROCOR. The list goes on.

As soon as the Western Rite Orthodox Church bears a lot of fruit and spreads, I'm sure we can spend a lot of time making sure we have theologically acceptable pre-schism artwork (even though, for a major time period, a lot of Rome's artwork was basically copied from Byzantium - see the mosaics which I have posted in the Western Rite forum). But, as of now, we have to deal with the legitimization and spread of Western Orthodoxy first before we can deal with such nitpicking details that aren't as "perfect" and "ideal" as someone who has come across, without offense to you personally, quite apathetic to liturgy.

I mean, shouldn't you make sure that your own church has proper Roman artwork before going on a rant about how Western Rite Orthodoxy hasn't met your pristine standards?

We can't just buy post-Renaissance Catholic statues or Sacred Heart images or Corporeal Renaissance artwork and venerate them, especially with the latter categories.

And let me tell you something, Saint John of Shanghai wasn't anywhere near as apathetic in terms of Liturgy as you are. So don't put words in his mouth.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 07:40:04 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2017, 07:56:16 PM »
Quote
I'm sorry that Gothic and Romanesque icons and iconography aren't in high demand for Orthodox Christians to venerate....or even Roman Catholics.

I get it about "liturgical archaeology" trying to force dead forms on people but it's good art that deserves a revival and it fits WRO's stated principles perfectly. Here I'm not trying to bully someone in church acting in good faith, just presenting a "what if" scenario that's, yes, fair to the Orthodox.

Quote
Not to mention that the idea of Western Rite Orthodoxy is highly, highly controversial for some conservative Orthodox members.

The mirror of the latinization we're accused of but it seems more pervasive and powerful in Orthodoxy. (You know what I think: anti-Westernism is hardwired into Orthodoxy; John of Shanghai and San Francisco was wrong about Orthodoxy in this respect. So I'm not Orthodox.)

Quote
It's the reason why there is a schism with the Western Rite Orthodox Church of Paris - as soon as the Russian Orthodox Church tried to phase out Western Rite and replace it with Saint John Chrysostom, they broke communion with the Russian Orthodox Church and are now, tragically, a vangate church (can't some Church like Antioch just pick them up?). It's still very controversial for some bishops.

Almost a mirror of the Toth and Chornock splits in America except these were generations-old Byzantine Catholic communities and they never were vagantes. There were Rusyns who really thought our authorities were trying to phase out the Byzantine Rite in America (some of our churchmen wanted that but it has never been our policy) and thus were understandably upset. The split was our fault.

I've said and meant I'm very sorry the Byzantine Rite is declining in America and am sorry for the Toth and Chornock splits; I still participate in the rite, remembering 30 years ago when Eastern rites were the only Catholics in America still allowed to be traditional and remembering the born Orthodox I've known who lived and died in good faith.

Quote
As soon as the Western Rite Orthodox Church bears a lot of fruit and spreads...

It's had a century and a quarter; in the same period the Polish National Catholic Church in America has become a generational community (it's now not mostly ex-Catholics; it's fourth-generation members).

Quote
I mean, shouldn't you make sure that your own church has proper Roman artwork before going on a rant about how Western Rite Orthodoxy hasn't met your pristine standards?

Not really my standards but a hypothetical, based on WRO's stated principles.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 07:56:52 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2017, 08:14:45 PM »
Discerning which is the True Church which Christ established is a hard, long, and time-consuming task, and I don't doubt the amount of pain you have gone through in your empirical and spiritual research - but at the end of the day, all you can do is try your hardest, pray A LOT, and have Faith in God above, and choose that Church.
I understand it very well that I have to make a choice. It is the Truth that is moving me to make a choice.  I struggle because I resist. I resist because I'm being taken where I don't want to go.  I don't want to go because I've been Catholic since infancy, staunchly so.

Quote from: LivenotoneviL
I know you are in a unique situation because the Maronite liturgy is unique and the Maronite people have had a unique and terrible past (in terms of persecution) - but at the end of the day, you just have to have Faith and choose the Church.

I just don't think it is spiritually healthy to be a Maronite but have Orthodox beliefs.
Keep in mind that the most particularly Western dogmas came about after the Great Schism.  Truly, in earnest only after the Counter Reformation.  However, the beliefs held by the Maronite Church until then were mostly shared with the Eastern Orthodox Church and they were echoed in our Liturgy of St. James.  Methinks that this was the reason why Rome ordered our liturgical volumes burned and our cherished liturgy replaced in toto by the Tridentine liturgy.  The Maronite Church born this wrong patiently, perhaps fearfully, and, generations later, thanks to God, Rome came to see its error and allowed the Maronites to celebrate our liturgy, which was not easy when the books had been burned and a long time had passed.  Slowly it was recovered, especially after a copy of the Maronite liturgical volumes was found in the Vatican Library.

However, as the Maronite Church recovered its liturgy, with its ancient beliefs coded into its text, it still contradicted the official line demanded by Rome.  The Maronite Church, which has been enduring persecution from Mohammedans and Romans alike for a millennium, chose to not make a big deal out of the inconsistencies between its ancient faith and the Roman faith.  Still, we the faithful are fed theologically firstly by the liturgy, so all it takes is a modicum of study to realize the contradictions imposed by the communion with Rome.  The Eastern Christian ethos and worship is mostly antitethical to the Western Christian ethos and worship, so the tension is real and the personal challenge not that uncommon.

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2017, 11:18:18 PM »
Oh boy...here we go....


Quote
I get it about "liturgical archaeology" trying to force dead forms on people but it's good art that deserves a revival and it fits WRO's stated principles perfectly. Here I'm not trying to bully someone in church acting in good faith, just presenting a "what if" scenario that's, yes, fair to the Orthodox.

We're back to square one once again.

The same argument can be made about all the Byzantine Catholic Churches, which literally copied and pasted the Orthodox Liturgical Tradition as it changed over time, while modifying a few things here and there (to fit Orthodox theology). In the Roman church, all the Byzantine Catholic Churches were a dead liturgy until- unlike the Western Rite Orthodox Church - for the most part - for purely political pressure many Byzantine Catholic Churches were ripped apart from the Orthodox Church. The same with literally every Roman Catholic - equivalent liturgy you guys have with all of the Oriental Orthodox Churches - the Armenian Catholic Church, the Ethiopian Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, etc.

Sure, they had sacraments, but anybody who practiced any of these liturgies before they became part of the Roman church committed a mortal sin.

All of these church traditions, from the Roman Catholic perspective, were literally dead, as they weren't allowed to be practiced. But they were just copied and pasted with little modification, with obviously some theological modification, but most of this was done due to political pressure, grabbing chunks of already existing churches and making it a part of Rome, just to get power - not out of a genuine historical and cultural interest.

But considering that the Western Orthodox Church IS done out of a cultural and historical interest, and we aren't literally taking a piece of the Roman church's hierarchy away from you guys, I don't see how you can attack our idea for something that was beautiful and a part of the Orthodox Church for 1000 years, when you guys did it on a much worse scale.

If someone truly wants to accept Roman dogmas like Papal Infallibility, Papal Supremacy, the Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, etc. while following an Orthodox liturgical tradition, then that's their business. I don't have a problem with the liturgy they prefer, and I hope they do their research on the history of the Papacy and pray to find the Orthodox Church.
And I can't tell you the amount of times during this journey to Orthodoxy I've had people say "Why not just join a Byzantine Catholic Church?"

I have no problem with these churches as entities now - in fact, I would (subjectively) hate it as a matter of fact if these (Eastern) churches were removed out of "ecumenism," and we were forced to remove Western Orthodox Churches. I think God would get upset at both of our churches' apathy towards Faith and legitimate dialogue, with a taste of religious indifferentism (considering that I don't believe legitimate union will ever occur unless one church's faith becomes watered down, and if that happens, then it is dangerous for those members to become a part of the stronger faith, because we will get a bunch of indifferent people who don't really care about dogma and will try to change things even further).

But anyways, just don't have your double standards - don't act like that actions which currently occur in the majority of Novus Ordo masses which were once seen as scandalous (such as communion in the hand, Eucharistic ministers, contemporary music, and contemporary Liberal art) are not a big deal and the liturgy doesn't matter too much, then all of sudden analyze Western Rite Orthodoxy from point A to point B and write an essay about how offensive to your eyes it is to have Byzantine styled icons (which was, pre-schism and post-schism, and still is a part of Roman liturgical tradition).

It's Pharasaical.

Quote
The mirror of the latinization we're accused of but it seems more pervasive and powerful in Orthodoxy. (You know what I think: anti-Westernism is hardwired into Orthodoxy; John of Shanghai and San Francisco was wrong about Orthodoxy in this respect. So I'm not Orthodox.)

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.
And, I was ignorant - they were excommunicated over canonical issues, not Western liturgy.
I'd trust the words of a Saint more than some older priest on the internet who complains about how everyone is worse than him in terms of liturgy.

Quote

Almost a mirror of the Toth and Chornock splits in America except these were generations-old Byzantine Catholic communities and they never were vagantes. There were Rusyns who really thought our authorities were trying to phase out the Byzantine Rite in America (some of our churchmen wanted that but it has never been our policy) and thus were understandably upset. The split was our fault.

I've said and meant I'm very sorry the Byzantine Rite is declining in America and am sorry for the Toth and Chornock splits; I still participate in the rite, remembering 30 years ago when Eastern rites were the only Catholics in America still allowed to be traditional and remembering the born Orthodox I've known who lived and died in good faith.

I stand corrected; I was wrong - the Western Orthodox Church of France split because they were disobeying the authority of the Orthodox Church. There were canonical irregularities, and apparently, the head bishop was involved with a scandalous affair - which led to a bunch of schismatics from that church, said schismatics who are in communion with Serbia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_France

My bad  :-[

Quote
It's had a century and a quarter; in the same period the Polish National Catholic Church in America has become a generational community (it's now not mostly ex-Catholics; it's fourth-generation members).

Well, could you imagine how strong the Byzantine Catholic Churches would be if Rome was run by a communist government?
The Western Orthodox Churches were growing significantly under ROCOR, but it was put on halt when the October Revolution occurred.
Now they are growing again.

Plus, there's only 300,000,000 Orthodox Church members in the world (as of today); there have been Western Orthodox communities that have grown, they aren't as visible due to being of a smaller quantity. It's growing surely but slowly though.

Compare that to the 1.3 billion Roman Catholics.

Quote
Not really my standards but a hypothetical, based on WRO's stated principles.

They are your standards, because if they weren't your standards, you wouldn't be complaining.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 11:27:42 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2017, 05:47:21 AM »
We don't double-deal with doctrine; there is one set of doctrine but several expressions of it. I'm fine with Eastern methods that say Western methods aren't needed in them. I'm not fine with denying our doctrine.

And Roman Catholic doctrine, according to St. Mark of Ephesus and other Orthodox saints, is considered heresy from an Orthodox point of view. This is the real problem we have with Rome. You say all our formalised doctrine is true. But we say significant parts of Rome's formalised doctrine are heretic.

I hope I am not insulting anyone personally here, neither do I wish to break forum rules, but I believe anyone affirming Roman Catholic doctrine, from layperson to Pope, must repent and return to the Truth. Re-establishing communion with Rome would require them to officially adopt the Orthodox doctrine first.

(And honestly, I am sceptical about a potential "Western expression" of that doctrine. The expression of Orthodox doctrine by people such as Metr. Kallistos Ware are Western enough for me. What we surely do not need within Orthodoxy is any kind of doublespeak).

Offline juliogb

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2017, 07:45:46 AM »
This ''byzantine x western'' art debate seems senseless to me, what we call ''byzantine art'' today was like the normal kind of art you would see in christian churches both in east and west. Some examples bellow.


Apse mosaic of the Basilica of San Clemente al Laterano in Rome.



Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome.



Church of Santi Cosma i Damiano, Rome.


Aachen Cathedral, Germany.


Pisa Cathedral

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2017, 10:10:52 AM »
There are Eastern Catholics who are entirely unlatinized.
Being familiar with about half of the Eastern Catholic Churches, I feel inclined to infer that this is hard to believe.

From my experience with Maronite and Ukrainian Catholic Churches, I agree.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2017, 10:11:25 AM »
This ''byzantine x western'' art debate seems senseless to me, what we call ''byzantine art'' today was like the normal kind of art you would see in christian churches both in east and west. Some examples bellow.


Apse mosaic of the Basilica of San Clemente al Laterano in Rome.



Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome.



Church of Santi Cosma i Damiano, Rome.


Aachen Cathedral, Germany.


Pisa Cathedral



You should post these in the Western Rite forum.

Although I'm kind of perplexed by the 13 lambs in Santa Maria... Christ being the Lamb of God was Christ being the ultimate sacrifice, a sacrificial lamb...and Christ is also the Good Shepherd, with the Apostles being sheep I guess...and shepherds (end of John).

Although I don't think both Christ as a Lamb and the Apostles as sheep fits together as a single parable...you can't just blend together parables like that.

What is the meaning of those mosaics? Is it insinuating that the Apostles were also sacrificial lambs (then what about John?) If it's the Shepherd and His sheep, why is Christ a sheep?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:22:31 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2017, 11:19:34 AM »
Pictures of virtually every WRO church show them mimicking the Byzantine Rite with those icons, lamps, etc., not using Western art such as Beatus de Facundus. The "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look. I get the point about Roman Rite Catholics and Anglicans using these things but you can tell it's not quite the imitation you see among WRO.

Quote
The WRO is not "byzantinized" beyond using leavened bread and including an epiklesis in the liturgy.

If your bishops agreed with John of Shanghai and San Francisco there wouldn't be any byzantinizations. There are Catholic churches that aren't latinized.

Callimg the use of leavened bread and the epiklesis Byzantinizations is grossly inaccurate.  In the Eastern Orthodox Church, these are held to be dogmatic.   Just like the ban on the filioque.

Do you expect we would allow the filioque in the WRO churches?  Because if we did they would not be Orthodox.  The Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church agreed in order to resolve the Photian Schism that St. Photius was right and the filioque had to go.  80 years later Rome changed its mind, and this was a major contributor to the "cold war conditions" that ultimately led to the Great Schism rolling in starting in 1054.

Another doctrinal dispute, which was also a sticking point at Florence and a rallying call used by St. Mark of Ephesus, was the use of unleavened bread.  The EOs believe only leavened bread is canonical and appropriate, for a host of reasons.  Of the OOs, only the Armenians use unleavened bread; they also used unleavened bread before Rome ever did, and this fact probably contributed to the schism between them and the Syriac Orthodox Church which has since been resolved.


From an OO perspective,  I consider the Armenian use of unleavened bread to be acceptable only as an act of oikonomia to maintain the unity of the OO communion and as a concession to Armenian culture, as Armenians cuatomarily eat unleavened bread like lavash, in massive quantities.  Its a bit like how we put up with the Armenian Madhab or the Ethiopian insistence on circumcision (since the Ethiopian Orthodox are Jewish Christians and interpret St. Paul as meaning they have to keep the law, in part, whereas the Copts and Syriacs, despite the latter also being largely of Jewish descent, perhaps more Jewish than the Ethiopians, hold to a more liberal interpretation, although OO boys are customarily circumcised).

The OO and EO both agree that the Words of Institution do not consecrate.  Thus, the insertion of an Epiklesis is absolutely required.  What is more, it was the West that first thought as much: the Scottish Non Juring Episcopalians decided an Epiklesis was required, and during their unsuccessful attempt, thwarted by distance and the British government, to become Eastern Orthodox, they inserted an epiklesis into the Holy Communion service.  And because they ordained the American Anglican Bishop Seabury, from whom the other American Anglican bishops got their apostolic succession, amd which is also a major reason why the American province became known as the Protestant Episcopal Church and not something like the "Anglican Church in North America" (the name amusingly selected by the group which has broken from the ECUSA and the ACC in schism over gay marriage, which is itself a collection of smaller jurisdictions ranging from the old 19th century Reformed Episcopal Church to various high church jurisdictions, and former Episcopal dioceses that managed to breakaway entire, for example, I think the Diocese of South Carolina).   

Thus, the Episcopal Church, USA and its successors, except for the Reformed Episcopal Church, which is ultra low church and Calvinist, have always used an Epiklesis.   Even today, all seven Anaphorae in the three rites available in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer have an Epiklesis.

It was to Anglo Catholics St. John was speaking, and he was speaking in the context of historic negotiations between the ECUSA and the Russian Orthodox Church, which produced the report of St. Tikhon on the revisions neccessary for the BCP to be used in an Orthodox setting, and there was a failed attempt led by the high churchmen of the Episcopal Church to unite with the Russian Orthodox, which was sabotaged by the low church, evangelical faction. 

So that is what is to be understood as the "West" St. John was referring to: a group mostly using the BCP, sometimes using the English Missal, of Episcopalian Anglo Catholics, who believed in the importance of the epkilesis as the moment of consecration.

And before you criticize us for having modified the Tridentine mass to make it compatible with Orthodox doctrine, your own church did the same thing to the Anglican liturgy when creating the new Ordinariates.   In fact, there is no Rite in the Episcopal Church as thoroughly Latinized as the Anglican Rite, by your definition.  Of course, you would say you were merely correcting doctrinal errors in the Anglican prayer books, and we are saying the same thing.

Also, your own church historically did Latinize the Byzantine Rite of the Ruthenians, the East Syriac and Oriental Orthodox Rites (because they accused us, and the Assyrians, of heresy), and the Maronite Rite.    These Latinizations have been reduced since Vatican II but not eliminated; the anaphorae that lack the Words of Institution have not, for example, been restored to the Syriac Catholic Church, nor have devotions like the Novena and the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament native to the West Syriac Rite been removed.  The Syriac Catholic Church, unlike the Malankara Catholic Church, even uses Latin Rite vestments!  In fact, they look like Roman clergy from the 1950s.  The Malankara Catholic Church does use the beautiful vestments of the Syriac Orthodox Church, the colorful, exquisite designs of tailors like Pulickal Brothers, but is also Latinized; I have seen photos of beautifully vested priests of the Malankara Catholic Church celebrating versus populum in a rather Art Nouveau lookimg Cathedral, that came across as looking a bit like what Hector Guimard or Gaudi might have designed, if high on absinthe and opium (which btw, I doubt either used, I simply mean, had heir abilities been degrqded), and on an Orientalist flight of fancy.

Versus Populum is by the way the ultimate Romanization; due to the architecture of several Roman churches built atop the graves of holy martyrs, there is a dip in front of the altar called the Confessio, designed to allow the faithful to get as close as possible to the tombs of St. Peter and other heroic saints killed in the Imperial capital.  It was taken up by the Church of South India which resulted from the merger of all of the mainline Protestant churches after Indian independence, in addition to the use of a BCP which quoted slightly our Syriac Orthodox liturgy, and from that, your church got the idea to use versus populum everywhere, thus Romanizing the Ambrosian Rite, and Romanizing the Maronite, Chaldean and other Rites, even some Melkite parishes.

~

So in conclusion, you have to draw a distinction between cultural imperialism and dogmatic correction.  The Epiklesis and leavened bread are added to the Western Rite liturgy, and the Filioque is removed, because we believe this to be dogmatic.  If this is cultural Imperialism, where do you draw the line?   Your Byzantine churches commemorate the Pope of Rome, including in some litanies where the Patriarch of the local church is himself not normally commemorated aloud, outside the diptychs.  I am not going to accuse them of Romanizing over that gesture, and neither will I classify dogmatic corrections in the Western Rite Orthodox churches as being Byzantinzations.

There is also a realm of local uses which can be permitted via oikonomia, which are non-standard.  Some condescending Catholic and Orthodox bishops view the entire Eastern and Western rites of these churches as a massive exercise in Oikonomia, the pure Roman or Byzantine Rites being the superior, natural and normative liturgy, the default for all missionary activity.  Certainly the Tridentine condescension to allow Western Rites more than 200 years old, namely, the Mozarabic, Bragan, Ambrosian, Lyonaise and the uses of the Dominican Friars, Carmelite monks and the Benedictine breviary, has the flavour of oikonomia.  I myself would prefer to regard, with profuse apologies to our Armenian members, who I regard as fully and entirely Orthodox, and also who I love dearly, having grown up with an Armenian family as the best friends of our family, the use of unleavened bread and straight wine in the Armenian church, as being, from the perspective of the other three churches, Oikonomia, but lest the Armenians take offense, I would also propose that at least some Armenian bishops view our departures from their rite as Oikonomia.  And given that the Armenians control and organize the Oriental Orthodox presence in Jerusalem, albeit subject to the Status Quo, and are the principle "fighting force" I suppose to defend our altars from the kind of brawl that occasionally and shamefully erupts with the Greeks (but even more shamefully, between our own Copts and Ethiopians on one recent occasion), perhaps their view is correct and unleavened bread is normative Oriental Orthodoxy, at least in Jerusalem.   Although numbers wise, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which also has some points of striking contrast with the Copts, Syriacs and Armenians, is surely the normative Oo church, given there are more Ethiopian Orthodox than the combined total of everyone else, amd given that the average baptized Ethiopian probably spends more time in church standing in prayer than the combined total of ten baptized members of each of the other three OO churches, owing to the maximal piety of the Ethiopians, a devotion incomparable.

A strong argument could be made on the basis of pure merit that if we are to convert people from one rite to another, we should have everyone pray using the Ethiopian Rite, or at the very least, "Ethiopianize" everyone elses rites.  Because I can think of no contemporary Christians who have endured more suffering, persecution and been more tried in the fire, and who pray longer and more fervently, than the Ethiopians.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #126 on: September 18, 2017, 12:09:59 PM »
Of the OOs, only the Armenians use unleavened bread; they also used unleavened bread before Rome ever did, and this fact probably contributed to the schism between them and the Syriac Orthodox Church which has since been resolved.

AFAIK, it wasn't a contributing factor, but an ex post facto polemical justification. 

Quote
From an OO perspective,  I consider the Armenian use of unleavened bread to be acceptable only as an act of oikonomia to maintain the unity of the OO communion and as a concession to Armenian culture, as Armenians cuatomarily eat unleavened bread like lavash, in massive quantities. 

We, Armenians and non-Armenian God-fearers who commune regularly among them, are so grateful--tickled pink, really, like the flesh of our animal sacrifices which you also tolerate--that your gracious and much-renowned magnanimity, O Alpha60, allows us to receive Jesus in spite of a lack of yeast. 

You have a habit of finding yourself in some mood and then posting long screeds full of blithering nonsensical claims and then use words like "dogmatic" to lend them authority.  Discern what those moods are so that when you are in them or feel them coming, you can be wise enough not to post here until they pass.  None of us wants to sift through abominable claim after abominable claim in order to set the record straight for the sake of innocent people who might be misled.  Seriously, just stop.

Quote
I have seen photos of beautifully vested priests of the Malankara Catholic Church celebrating versus populum in a rather Art Nouveau lookimg Cathedral, that came across as looking a bit like what Hector Guimard or Gaudi might have designed, if high on absinthe and opium (which btw, I doubt either used, I simply mean, had heir abilities been degrqded), and on an Orientalist flight of fancy.

Produce the photos. 

Quote
I myself would prefer to regard, with profuse apologies to our Armenian members, who I regard as fully and entirely Orthodox, and also who I love dearly, having grown up with an Armenian family as the best friends of our family, the use of unleavened bread and straight wine in the Armenian church, as being, from the perspective of the other three churches, Oikonomia, but lest the Armenians take offense, I would also propose that at least some Armenian bishops view our departures from their rite as Oikonomia.

Just leave them alone.  They have shed their blood for generation upon generation for something you often come across as regarding as a hobby.  And all on the strength of unleavened Eucharist. 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:10:55 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #127 on: September 18, 2017, 12:25:15 PM »
As I recall, when St. Photius was trying to smooth over relations with the Pope (before the council of 869) he mentioned the leavened/unleavened difference as an example of how local practices could differ and shouldn't be points of division (he was trying to justify his quick elevation from layman to bishop). Didn't seem to consider it dogmatic at the time...

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #128 on: September 18, 2017, 02:04:47 PM »
Of the OOs, only the Armenians use unleavened bread; they also used unleavened bread before Rome ever did, and this fact probably contributed to the schism between them and the Syriac Orthodox Church which has since been resolved.

AFAIK, it wasn't a contributing factor, but an ex post facto polemical justification. 

Quote
From an OO perspective,  I consider the Armenian use of unleavened bread to be acceptable only as an act of oikonomia to maintain the unity of the OO communion and as a concession to Armenian culture, as Armenians cuatomarily eat unleavened bread like lavash, in massive quantities. 

We, Armenians and non-Armenian God-fearers who commune regularly among them, are so grateful--tickled pink, really, like the flesh of our animal sacrifices which you also tolerate--that your gracious and much-renowned magnanimity, O Alpha60, allows us to receive Jesus in spite of a lack of yeast. 

You have a habit of finding yourself in some mood and then posting long screeds full of blithering nonsensical claims and then use words like "dogmatic" to lend them authority.  Discern what those moods are so that when you are in them or feel them coming, you can be wise enough not to post here until they pass.  None of us wants to sift through abominable claim after abominable claim in order to set the record straight for the sake of innocent people who might be misled.  Seriously, just stop.

Quote
I have seen photos of beautifully vested priests of the Malankara Catholic Church celebrating versus populum in a rather Art Nouveau lookimg Cathedral, that came across as looking a bit like what Hector Guimard or Gaudi might have designed, if high on absinthe and opium (which btw, I doubt either used, I simply mean, had heir abilities been degrqded), and on an Orientalist flight of fancy.

Produce the photos. 

Quote
I myself would prefer to regard, with profuse apologies to our Armenian members, who I regard as fully and entirely Orthodox, and also who I love dearly, having grown up with an Armenian family as the best friends of our family, the use of unleavened bread and straight wine in the Armenian church, as being, from the perspective of the other three churches, Oikonomia, but lest the Armenians take offense, I would also propose that at least some Armenian bishops view our departures from their rite as Oikonomia.

Just leave them alone.  They have shed their blood for generation upon generation for something you often come across as regarding as a hobby.  And all on the strength of unleavened Eucharist.

Let me apologize: that post was pretty much a failtrain.  My remarks concerning the Armenians were actually intended to be a bit of an oblique satire of the excesses of dogmatic variation that occur in the Roman Catholic Church, how they apparently venerate both St. Cyril and Nestorius.  Which is why I deliberately contradicted myself.

What I should have said is simply that the EO and OO have almost always insisted that the removal of the filioque and the use of an epiklesis are dogmatic, that the epiklesis is consecratory, and not the instittion narrative.  Thus, these can be said to be dogmatic requirements of the liturgy.  The EO have also occasionally dogmatized and written fierce polemics regarding unleavened bread, which the OO have not.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #129 on: September 18, 2017, 04:11:40 PM »
Let me also clarify that I regard !he Armenian Eucharist as completely, perfectly valid and normative, and I also consider it to be highly likely that the Roman Catholic church has a valid Eucharist, at least in some dioceses and under some conditions, if not entirely, on which point I should stress the latter view is at odds with most Orthodox theologians and is not our official teaching.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #130 on: September 18, 2017, 08:25:15 PM »
The EO have also occasionally dogmatized and written fierce polemics regarding unleavened bread, which the OO have not.

Varghese, B., tr.  Dionysius Bar Salibi: Commentary on the Eucharist (1998: SEERI, Kottayam), pp. 30-31.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #131 on: September 18, 2017, 08:26:08 PM »
Let me also clarify that I regard !he Armenian Eucharist as completely, perfectly valid and normative, and I also consider it to be highly likely that the Roman Catholic church has a valid Eucharist, at least in some dioceses and under some conditions, if not entirely, on which point I should stress the latter view is at odds with most Orthodox theologians and is not our official teaching.

No one really cares if you think the RC Eucharist is valid, but you shouldn't be so quick to call into question your own. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #132 on: September 18, 2017, 09:03:20 PM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

For Chaldeans celebrating versus populum, I have a YouTube video here: https://youtu.be/mCIUbrgw1y8

There is a -lot- of Latinization in that parish, in the statues of the Theotokos et cetera.

In blissful contrast however, look at this Chaldean Catholic parish in Toronto, where the Anaphora is said Ad Orientem: https://youtu.be/GB9RrVaj-jg

Compare with this decidedly inferior Assyrian Christmas raza (mystery, the preferred Assyrian term for what we would call the Qurbana Qadisha or more commonly, Qurbono Qadisho , meaning Holy Sacrifice, in the Syriac Orthodox Church):

https://youtu.be/hppltw1PuJM

I think the Chaldeans did a much better job: the historic use of cymbals was preserved; the singing was otherwise a capella with no annoying electronic organ, and especially, without the inane touchy-feely new age synthesized piano accompaniement to communion, despite the presence of minor Latinizations like the sacring bells, unleavened bread and Western mitre and crosier vs. the Shashta (the cap of the bishops of the Assyrian church; it has another name as well; in the Chaldean Church only the Patriarch of Babylon wore a simiiar cap, called a shash, but infuriatingly, the newly elected Patriarch is refusing to wear one "in the spirit of Pope Francis" "to avoid creating a barrier between myself and the people."

Hopefully the new Patriarch of Babylon will not ruin the absolute liturgical excellence we see in this Chaldean parish, but move the Chaldean church as a whole away from the Latinized lameness of the first video I linked to, and in the direction of this parish, and perhaps do away with the more annoying latinizations, like the sacring bell (which clashes cacophonically with the cymbal-accompanied music).

I think it possible the Chaldean use of the cymbals was once normative throughout the Assyrian church, but lost due to extreme poverty and the genocide.  I also have a recording of Syriac Catholics using cymbals.  I would assume however Mor that there is no historical record or use of them among the Syro-Malabar Catholics or the Orthodox in India?  I haven't seen any suggestion of it; I think its a Levantine thing.
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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #133 on: September 18, 2017, 09:15:59 PM »
Let me also clarify that I regard !he Armenian Eucharist as completely, perfectly valid and normative, and I also consider it to be highly likely that the Roman Catholic church has a valid Eucharist, at least in some dioceses and under some conditions, if not entirely, on which point I should stress the latter view is at odds with most Orthodox theologians and is not our official teaching.

No one really cares if you think the RC Eucharist is valid, but you shouldn't be so quick to call into question your own.

Just to be clear, it was not my intent to call into question the validity of my own, in any respect.  The OO Eucharist and the EO Eucharist I am certain are valid.  As explained above, my comments on the use of leavened bread or unleavened bread as normative Oriental Orthodoxy vs. Oikonomia was a completely failed attempt, in retrospect also tasteless, or in bad taste, to satirically criticize the Roman Catholics for their extreme equivocation on the Filioque, on leavned vs. unleavened bread, and on allowning Syro-Malabar and Chaldean Catholics to venerate Nestorius, while simultaneously venerating St. Cyril, especially in the Coptic, Ethiopian and Syriac Catholic churches.

Yet, to my knowledge, despite Rome allowing Nestorius to be venerated, they continue to regard our Saints Dioscorus, Severus, Jacob of Sarugh, Peter the Fuller, Jacob Bar Addai, and others, as anathema, in fact, in the case of St. Dioscorus and Peter the Fuller, Pope Gelasius I in the Gelasian Sacramentary I posted a link to in Religious Topics dared to declare them inextricably anathematized and damned to Hell forever, which I believe is a violation of Scholastic and contemporary Roman theology on the nature of what an anathema is (that is to say, the Catholic Encyclopedia and more recent Roman documents on excommunication that I have read indicate there is no way the Church can, without leaving the door open to repentance, completely and permanently damn you, so that even if you do repent your sins will still be retained rather than forgiven).  Perhaps the importance of the Pope Leo narrative is the reason for this, or perhaps the RCC managed to convince the Oriental Catholics that Miaphysitism == bad and Chalcedon == good, so there is no desire among these churches to avail themselves of the freedom granted to the Chaldeans and Syro Malabar to embrace Miaphysitism and the Oriental Orthodox saints.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #134 on: September 18, 2017, 09:18:56 PM »
The EO have also occasionally dogmatized and written fierce polemics regarding unleavened bread, which the OO have not.

Varghese, B., tr.  Dionysius Bar Salibi: Commentary on the Eucharist (1998: SEERI, Kottayam), pp. 30-31.

Oh shap; I have read that, actually, or at least a summary of what it contains, but I forgot.  It was from that text summarizing St. Bar Salibi that first learned of the Syro-Armenian schism.

What ultimately caused the schism, and what led to its reconciliation?  I will post a thread asking that in the OO forum.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #135 on: September 18, 2017, 09:27:19 PM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

I wouldn't have risked encouraging you if I wasn't interested.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #136 on: September 18, 2017, 10:01:13 PM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

I wouldn't have risked encouraging you if I wasn't interested.

Ok, I'll hunt it down.  This is going to take some digging, and I'll have to upload it to Mediawiki (I think its where I found it).
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2017, 12:49:43 AM »
Alpha60,

One question please: Is receiving communion sub una (i.e. only the body, not the blood) an authentic Chaldean practice, or a Latinisation?

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2017, 02:01:38 PM »
quote author=Gorazd link=topic=72306.msg1484895#msg1484895 date=1505796583]
Alpha60,

One question please: Is receiving communion sub una (i.e. only the body, not the blood) an authentic Chaldean practice, or a Latinisation?
[/quote]

I think receiving sub una is a legitimate Assyrian praxis, at least at present, based on personal experience, for reasons of pastoral care and provided the bread has been intincted.  In my history of the Assyrian church from the time of the Turkish genocide, I have also read that in its poverty the church faced severe wine shortages, and was using wine watered down to an extreme extent in the Eucharistic liturgy.  Here is my experience receiving communion sub una in the Assyrian church before I became Orthodox:

When I was Episcopalian during my Methodist-Orthodox transitional phase I took communion at St. Mary's Assyrian Church of the East.  The most beautiful service we attended was evening prayer followed by a Raza during the start of the Rogation of the Ninevites.  I had hoped to visit a Syriac Orthodox church for the Eucharist served at the end, and a Coptic church in the middle, but was unwell, and my mother was even more so; this was when my father's health was really starting to get bad and he had a bad episode of pneumonia which my wicked half sisters contrived with the nursing home to conceal from us; fortunately he recovered and he and I spoke again and had a wonderful conversation.

Because my mother was so feeble, the priest, Chorepiscopus George, who is a very dear friend even today, even though I did not join his church but went the Syriac Orthodox route, told us that because he had already dipped the body in the blood during the anaphora, or hallowing, in Assyrian terminology,, there was no need for us to stand in a separate line for one of the two deacons providing the shared chalice (Assyrians drink straight from the chalice these days; I believe we also received communion in the hand, quite large pieces of bread, too, delicious bread, rivalled only by the blessed Coptic antidoron for Flavor.  I don't know if the Assyrian Eucharist is real or not; I did not see the very specific evidence that convinced me that the Roman Eucharist even in one species is valid, so all I can do is comment on its flavour compared to our antidoron or blessed bread; it is my experience that among other things, a true Eucharist posesses a heavenly flavour and will never upset the stomach unless consumed unworthily; the Assyrian bread certainly posesses a delicious flavour, but I never experienced a miraculous healing which has, on extremely rare occasions, happened when partaking of the Orthodox liturgy.   However, I only took communion there two or three times before deciding I preferred the Orthodox, and set my mind on Syriac Orthodoxy owing to my love for the very pleasant, loving, and horribly persecuted people of the Syriac and Assyrian ethnic groups; I loved the Assyrian music, but the Syriac Orthodox music was the most beautiful I had ever heard.

Also, there were some more pressing issues: icons, the Christology, theopaschitism, and so on.

I've written out a complete and very personal account of my encounter with the Assyrian Church and my 15 year journey to Syriac Orthodoxy and the Orthodox CHurch as a whole, and the spiritual experiences which led me this way, as well as what I hope and pray will happen to allow the Assyrian church, which did give us St. Isaac the Syrian, to throw off the shackles of Nestorianism and creeping iconoclasm-in-practice (and contrary to their own canons), and enter into communion with the Oriental church.  I feel the Church of the East must restore communion with the Syriacs, Copts, Armenians and Ethiopians first, because otherwise, if it instead enters into communion with the Romans or the Eastern Orthodox,  that would ruin the prospects of an ecumenical reconciiation between our communions.  Of course, before anything else, the schism between the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East needs to end, so that there is one unified Church of the East, because otherwise the needed liturgical repairs and restorations in the Assyrian church and the dumping of Nestorius as a venerated saint would just cause large numbers of people to abandon it and join the Ancient church; if the two churches are merged, any schismatic breakaway group would be forced to start afresh and would likely be smaller.   

I might post this in the OO forum once I have redacted it, or in Convert Issues as a history of my conversion; in the interim, if anyone wants to know what caused me to go to the Church of the East while transitioning from Methodism to Orthodoxy, PM me and I will send you my story.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2017, 04:29:28 PM »
Probably dis-illusioned with the Devil.
Learn meditation.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2017, 05:16:19 PM »
the Assyrian church, which did give us St. Isaac the Syrian

Isn't that controversial? St. Paisios strongly denied this claim.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #141 on: September 19, 2017, 07:18:23 PM »
In another thread one of the many converts in this forum was being kind saying that losing your faith in your birth church and in God as it understands him is painful. I just wanted to say I've done that. I was born Episcopal, so before I became Catholic I had to be shocked by the reality of Episcopalianism and let go of a vision of it I had really believed in. (I really wanted Catholicism; Episcopalianism is at heart Protestant.) So my non-acceptance of Orthodoxy isn't based on a reluctance to let go.

Your non acceptance of orthodoxy is a lack of faith in God.

As I said romanians catholics and orthodox asked God which Church is true and God responded that Orthodox. So the o[pinion of God is that Orthodox is true Church.

Your opinion is that Catholicism is best Church.

So you have more faith in your opinion than in Gods opinion.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline biro

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2017, 07:22:03 PM »
In regards to your second paragraph: where did you get this stuff?!
My only weakness is, well, never mind

He said he had a horrible house
I looked in it and learnt to shut my mouth

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

Online augustin717

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2017, 07:29:21 PM »
the Assyrian church, which did give us St. Isaac the Syrian

Isn't that controversial? St. Paisios strongly denied this claim.
what other historical facts was St Paisios strongly denying?
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Offline pasadi97

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2017, 07:48:56 PM »
Why the Liturgy has to be pleasant to you? If it is pleasant to God this is what it matters.

Anyhow we get life and eternal life from Holy Liturgy and this is what it matters. I am romanian that is western blood and eastern culture and I don't see the need for western style Liturgy. I am not against it if it brings forth life and eternal life.

For me oif God is happy with Holy Lityurgy being it in arabic or hindu I cannot be more happier. And if I getr life and eternal life that is super.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #145 on: October 01, 2017, 11:14:45 AM »
As I recall, when St. Photius was trying to smooth over relations with the Pope (before the council of 869) he mentioned the leavened/unleavened difference as an example of how local practices could differ and shouldn't be points of division (he was trying to justify his quick elevation from layman to bishop). Didn't seem to consider it dogmatic at the time...

Just to add something maybe more interesting, the following paper covers, among other things, the history of some of the differences (including the azymes issue):

Byzatine Perceptions of Latin Religious Errors

The emphasis is not on 'Latin Religious Errors' but rather 'Byzantine Perceptions'; and so for example it argues that Catholicism sometimes served as the public face for problems only after they became contentious among EOs/OOs.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #146 on: October 01, 2017, 01:10:53 PM »
The emphasis is not on 'Latin Religious Errors' but rather 'Byzantine Perceptions'; and so for example it argues that Catholicism sometimes served as the public face for problems only after they became contentious among EOs/OOs.

 ;)
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #147 on: October 02, 2017, 02:04:37 AM »
Oh btw Mor, I believe I have the image of that church downloaded to my ipad; as I have so many images it will take a while to find it, and then I will upload it, but before I proceed, are you sure you want to see it?  The church in question was really very garish. 

I wouldn't have risked encouraging you if I wasn't interested.

I havent had a chance to find it yet, but I havent forgotten about this.  My mother is in an unexpected amount of pain after the removal of the squamous cell and I am a bit unfer a crushload.  I'll post a thread here linking to pictures of said church if/when I find them.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #148 on: October 02, 2017, 01:01:03 PM »
Why the Liturgy has to be pleasant to you? If it is pleasant to God this is what it matters.

Anyhow we get life and eternal life from Holy Liturgy and this is what it matters. I am romanian that is western blood and eastern culture and I don't see the need for western style Liturgy. I am not against it if it brings forth life and eternal life.

For me oif God is happy with Holy Lityurgy being it in arabic or hindu I cannot be more happier. And if I getr life and eternal life that is super.

Very good.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Dis-illusionment and letting go
« Reply #149 on: October 02, 2017, 03:43:23 PM »
Why the Liturgy has to be pleasant to you? If it is pleasant to God this is what it matters.

Anyhow we get life and eternal life from Holy Liturgy and this is what it matters. I am romanian that is western blood and eastern culture and I don't see the need for western style Liturgy. I am not against it if it brings forth life and eternal life.

For me oif God is happy with Holy Lityurgy being it in arabic or hindu I cannot be more happier. And if I getr life and eternal life that is super.

Very good.

Indeed.

I love you guys, Pasadi and Porter.  You are loving champions of our faith.  God bless you, and please pray for me a sinner.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.