Author Topic: LEAVE THE CHURCH???  (Read 10690 times)

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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2006, 03:53:13 AM »
By the way, Matthew, so as not to distract this thread any further with the issue of the relationship between the EO and OO Churches, I direct you to the following thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9218.0

I don't want your conjecture or your personal opinion and gut feeling. I want you to show me from that original faith that you speak of, how one can define ecclesiological unity between two Churches not in Eucharistic Communion. I'd like you to produce evidence from the Orthodox Tradition upheld by the Syrian Orthodox Church, that schismatics, and hence those excluded from Communion, are those who have necessarily departed from the faith in terms of its doctrinal truth. I'd further like you to engage with the works of His Grace Paulos Mar Gregorios (of the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church) on this issue, specifically his work "Eucharistic Hospitality" (which was in fact a criticism against the notion of 'Eucharistic hospitality'), which I referred you to in a previous thread.

That is all.
No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

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Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2006, 04:16:38 AM »
It is both.
"One Lord, one Faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:4), one Eucharist, one Body, one Blood, one Creed....
 
you will never be a member of the Orthodox Church.


ozgeorge

When some one like you that keeps saying you are not Orthodox and saying you  will never be a member of the Orthodox Church. it is a wonder how you got in to the Orthodox Church. See I am Orthodox and in The Orthodox Church. 1. By Baptism and 2. by Chrismation and the only one who can take that way from me is the Lord  Jesus Christ who is the Church.

If I were a Bishop and found out that my Clergy or lay people were saying that to other people regardless who they are
 I would send them packing to the Protestant Church. As in (EXCOMMUNICATED)

Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2006, 04:54:19 AM »
Okay, FPA: When Matthew777 asked what makes the "One Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church" not Orthodox, my request for clarification was based on the fact that he used a general description that fits The Eastern Orthodox Church to describe a specific Church which is/was not in communion with the other Eastern Orthodox Patriarchates and Autocephalous churches.ÂÂ  That's where my request, and ozgeorge's further request come from.

I don't know why people have to gang up on FPA for his grammar and spelling; there are native english-speakers who don't write well, and we all know that many here don't have english as a first langauge.ÂÂ  At least I can understand what he's trying to say, so lighten up!

I would like to hear where this purported icon of priests and bishops in hell comes from, though; I know that there are many references to how easy it will be for clergy to find themselves in Hades thanks to their not living up to the standards that Christ has set.  BUt I've never seen an icon (other than something like the Ladder or the Ship of Orthodoxy) that make this specific depiction.  And if there was one, I don't know if I would use the word Icon to describe it (in the technical sense) since the icon wouldn't be an aid to worship, but rather only a didactic and penitential tool.

The Icon Does existed: but I don't remenber the name of the  ICON



Offline ozgeorge

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2006, 04:55:44 AM »
When some one like you that keeps saying you are not Orthodox and saying you  will never be a member of the Orthodox Church. it is a wonder how you got in to the Orthodox Church. See I am Orthodox and in The Orthodox Church. 1. By Baptism and 2. by Chrismation and the only one who can take that way from me is the Lord  Jesus Christ who is the Church.
Facts and reality:
You are not, nor have ever been a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. And there is a very simple way to prove it: Ask Archbishop Demetrios of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America if you are permitted to receive Communion in one of the Churches under his juristiction. Here are his contact details:

8 East 79th Street, New York, NY 10021
Phone: (212) 570-3500
Fax: (212) 570-3569

So, if you are, as you claim "Orthodox and in The Orthodox Church", why is it he will not permit you to Commune with us? You are "in the Church" yet will not be permitted to Receive Communion which is the right and duty of every member of the Orthodox Church.....why is that? Could it be perhaps that you are not really in the same Orthodox Church that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese is in? Why is it that I can receive Communion in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and you can't? Are we not in the same Church?

If I were a Bishop and found out that my Clergy or lay people were saying that to other people regardless who they are  I would send them packing to the Protestant Church. As in (EXCOMMUNICATED)
Bully for you. But one of the criteria for being an Bishop in the Eastern Orthodox Church is that one must actually be a member of the Church (not just imagine that they are). Another criterion is being Orthodox....that's two strikes against you.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 05:08:38 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Myrrh

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2006, 06:22:37 AM »
You need to read the bible again where it mentions to ordaind Bishops and Priests

This is Christ's specific teaching which is the basis for the ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church.

Myrrh

Offline Thomas

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2006, 06:44:41 AM »
I think the icon father Paul is likely describing is the Last judgement or the Ladder --- both of which show some bishops, monks, and priests falling and going into hell. What he did not mention is that there were also Bishops, priests, and monastics in heaven as well and having successfully climbed the ladder..

In Christ,
Thomas
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Thomas

Offline Keble

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2006, 01:08:34 PM »
Do I get extra points for being a member of a church that nobody in his right mind would accuse of being Orthodox? ;)

Since some foolish person started this in "Free-For-All" rather than in "Faith Issues", I feel permitted to unfurl my ecclesiology on this one. I don't not think that one's church allegiance will save one, and I doubt that emphasizing one's church allegiance will put one on the road to salvation. If God can make sons of Abraham out of rocks, surely he can make Orthodox churchmen out of the same materials.

But I am absolutely sure that emphasizing a claim to Orthodoxy which is questionable is going to harm you, in the end. My church, for the last two weeks, has been rather an embarrassment to Christianity. But it is my church, and I perceive that there is grace there. (Your perception of course may vary.) And I'm not so deluded, so intellectually dishonest as to claim that it is Orthodoxy on Orthodoxy's terms.

If one is a member of one of the non-Chalcedonian, Oriental Orthodox churches, it simply isn't honest to claim that there is no division between that church and the Chalecedonian Eastern Orthodox. If one is a member of ROAC, it simply isn't honest to ignore that one's church is considered by other Orthodox churches to be an illegitimate schism. I'm not a big fan of the Vincentian Canon, but this is one place where it kicks in with a vengeance. When you put yourself in the position of simply ignoring these disputes of legitimacy, and therefore borrowing, illegitimately, the merits of the other church, you are faking it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 02:21:23 PM by Keble »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2006, 01:36:42 PM »
Do I get extra points for being a member of a church that nobody in his right mind would accuse of being Orthodox? ;)

Since some foolish person started this in "Free-For-All" rather than in "Faith Issues", I feel permitted to unfurl my ecclesiology on this one. I don't not think that one's church allegiance will save one, and I doubt that emphasizing one's church allegiance will put one opn the road to salvation. If God can make sons of Abraham out of rocks, surely he can make Orthodox churchmen out of the same materials.

But I am absolutely sure that emphasizing a claim to Orthodoxy which is questionable is going to harm you, in the end. My church, for the last two weeks, has been rather an embarrassment to Christianity. But it is my church, and I perceive that there is grace there. (Your perception of course may vary.) And I'm not so delusion, so intellectually dishonest as to claim that it is Orthodoxy on Orthodoxy's terms.

If one is a member of one of the non-Chalcedonian, Oriental Orthodox churches, it simply isn't honest to claim that there is no division between that church and the Chalecedonian Eastern Orthodox. If one is a member of ROAC, it simply isn't honest to ignore that one's church is considered by other Orthodox churches to be an illegitimate schism. I'm not a big fan of the Vincentian Canon, but this is one place where it kicks in with a vengeance. When you put yourself in the position of simply ignoring these disputes of legitimacy, and therefore borrowing, illegitimately, the merits of the other church, you are faking it.


Thanka you very much.
Well put.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline Keble

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2006, 04:57:19 PM »
While I'm at it:

If you consider the alternatives, Orthodoxy is the only real option. We are the historical Church as founded by Christ and the Apostles. What we find in Western Christianity is, all too often, nothing but tomfoolery.

Matthew, you have left a trail of the most bizarre questions and opinions I've seen in a long time-- not that there haven't been plenty of others trying to match your record. But the "sweeping generalizations" department, this one is going to be hard to beat. I don't think you know much of anything about Western Christianity-- and for that matter, it doesn't seem to me that you have much to tell me about Eastern Christianity either, but since that's not my home turf, someone else can address that. But the West is my home turf, and for you to opine in majesterial authority about it is utterly beyond the pale.

Offline JoeS

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2006, 08:12:33 PM »
If you consider the alternatives, Orthodoxy is the only real option. We are the historical Church as founded by Christ and the Apostles. What we find in Western Christianity is, all too often, nothing but tomfoolery.

Peace.

Another problem I had to overcome when I became Orthodox is dealing with those whom I felt werent "Orthodox" enough.  ÃƒÆ’‚ This involved others coming in late for Liturgy, or not attending additional services that are ofter held besides Sunday Liturgy and the like.  I had to remind myself that I had to worry about my own salvation not someone elses.  I also had to remind myself that the church doesnt revolve around me, I should revolve myself around it.

JoeS
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 08:13:34 PM by JoeS »

Offline Matthew777

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2006, 10:39:25 PM »
I don't think you know much of anything about Western Christianity

As someone raised in the Catholic faith, before dabbling in Evangelical Protestantism and then converting to Orthodoxy, I highly doubt what you apparently think. Tomfoolery indeed, from the mouth of someone who knows why Orthodox is the one and only historical Church of Christ. While the Western Church has changed over time, Orthodoxy has kept the original Apostolic doctrine and practice intact. Not all church movements are started by kings who'd prefer to divorce their wives, after getting tired of having to kill them. Some are just founded by Apostles.

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 10:49:35 PM by Matthew777 »
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Offline BrotherAidan

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2006, 11:56:33 PM »
I think this is one of the all time weird threads.

I am mildly angry at myself for wasting time reading it. But it is kind of like hanging around an accidenftp://t scene - one just can't help himself wondering what will happen next.

Yuck!ÂÂ  >:(

A reminder - this thread began as one brother's sincere question. It kind of got hijacked.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 11:59:09 PM by BrotherAidan »

Offline Timos

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2006, 12:23:14 AM »
You are starting to get me MAD How dare you, For your info. I do know these things and I say the creed every night when I do my prayers from my Prayer book, I am with out merit for Christ knows whats in my heart. You should get the ICON that shows Bishops and Priests in Hell, That Icon is always on my mind. If you have never seen it you Should get it. Plus you should think about where you might end up, it may be the wrong place
Listen mister, stop being a bishop-smasher. As if our bishops need heckling from deranged people like yourself. They have so much other important stuff they gotta handle. Get Canonical!

www.antiochian.org

www.oca.og

www.goarch.org

Offline sdcheung

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2006, 12:27:03 AM »
Listen mister, stop being a bishop-smasher. As if our bishops need heckling from deranged people like yourself. They have so much other important stuff they gotta handle. Get Canonical!

www.antiochian.org

www.oca.og

www.goarch.org

would that be a Episkopoklast?

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Offline Starlight

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2006, 12:31:25 AM »
Listen mister, stop being a bishop-smasher. As if our bishops need heckling from deranged people like yourself. They have so much other important stuff they gotta handle. Get Canonical!

www.antiochian.org

www.oca.og

www.goarch.org
Timos, I really like that.

Offline Timos

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2006, 12:35:13 AM »
Me too. I actally saw that line "get canonical" on the prosphora (bread baking) website (prosphora.org i think) and on top was a little pic of a bishop which linked to the Antiochian website. Its a shame but I think this shows part of the reality of orthodoxy in North America.

Offline Psalti Boy

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2006, 02:15:29 AM »
Since I'm the one that started this thread, can I ask someone to lock it forever before it really gets out of hand???

Offline Fr. George

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Re: LEAVE THE CHURCH???
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2006, 03:41:32 PM »
It seems to me as if this thread has outlived its usefulness.. the whole "you're not orthodox" "yes I am" cycle has been repeated enough with enough spiritual damage meted out.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.