Poll

How do you view those Episcopi Vagante churches which claim to have valid Apostolic succession from an Orthodox - usually Syriac - line?

The Vatican View - At least some such ordinations are "valid" but "unlawful".  Their bishops are bishops, just not in communion with the Universal Church.
The Eastern Orthodox View - Their ordinations are not actual ordinations at all, and thus the persons so ordained are not bishops at all.
It varies based upon the ecclesial body in question and their faith and practice.
They are just silly, self-important people who like to play dress up and declare themselves to be Patriarchs from their living rooms.
They are our estranged brothers in the Orthodox faith and dialogue with them is more important than that with the Catholics and Protestants.
I do not recognize their claims to Apostolic succession, but I view them simply as more heterodox Christians akin to the various Protestant sects.
Other: My point of view is not represented here, and I will explain it below.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2017, 01:16:42 AM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

They advertise having a cathedral in an area I go several times a year, but I've never seen it despite walking the street where it is supposedly located, even as recently as two weeks ago. I'm guessing based on the district that it's a storefront.

If you ever decide to dig a little deeper and maybe visit them, please share the results!

I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

What I can specifically tell you about that is that when word of Rene Villatte's ordinations, particularly of the African Orthodox Church, which allegedly involved simony, reached the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Indian Catholicos, letters were sent declaring him deposed, and declaring all of his ordinations invalid (either from that point, or entirely; I think the latter).  The African Orthodox Church ordination was the specific episode that led to some fury and initiated his formal removal from the Syriac church; I believe this was due to him being paid a fee or charging a fee for the ordination, but I think this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he was heading for excommunication before the AOC incident.

The AOC in particular is not recognized as legitimate by us, which I think is good; we are in communion with the original "African-Initiated Church" as the WCC calls them, in the form of the Ethiopians, and we don't need to be in communion with people who dedicate one of their largest parishes to "St. John Coltrane" (and who also backup the choir at St. Gregory of Nyassa Episcopal Church across the bay (a parish so heretical even by ECUSA standards; their iconography depicts a dancing Kangxi Emperor among other dancing saints, and they have an anaphora dedicated to Cain, the proto-murderer).

Good info.  Thanks, Alpha.

I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here...

They are not legitimate.  Any "relationship" with the "Syriac Patriarch" is a technicality so extreme it's worthless.

Thank you.

I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

What I can specifically tell you about that is that when word of Rene Villatte's ordinations, particularly of the African Orthodox Church, which allegedly involved simony, reached the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Indian Catholicos, letters were sent declaring him deposed, and declaring all of his ordinations invalid (either from that point, or entirely; I think the latter).  The African Orthodox Church ordination was the specific episode that led to some fury and initiated his formal removal from the Syriac church; I believe this was due to him being paid a fee or charging a fee for the ordination, but I think this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he was heading for excommunication before the AOC incident.

He was deposed for simony?  LOL, as if he was unique in that, if true at all.  Simony in one form or another is still with us.

Actually, I made an error.  He was deposed for ordaining a schismatic PNCC priest as bishop without permission of Ignatius IV.

On September 9, 1898, Vilatte was excommunicated by Ignatius Peter IV for consecrating Kaminski in a way contrary to the canon law of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch.[4](p67) Anson wrote that in his agreement with Alvares, Vilatte acknowledged that if he "deviated from their Canons and Rules, he would be subject to dismissal from the dignity of Metropolitan."[1](p108) Bishops were consecrated by Vilatte "without authority" from the Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, who "therefore does not recognize such consecrations or their derivative consecrations and ordinations."[62](p1070)[76](pp39–40)

----

However, Kamimski did pay him.  The reason Vilatte waited so long to ordain him is initially he demanded a large fee which Kamimski lacked.  Almost all of his subsequent ordinations involved simony.

So if I understand you guys (Mor and Alpha) correctly, Vilatte was canonically ordained by the Syriac Church (or independent Malankara Church?  I'm not clear on the timeline or whether the MOSC was part of the SOC at this point), but later fell out of favor because of his sketchy activities (including rampant simony) and all of the ordinations he conducted were declared null and void?  Even those before his deposition and excommunication?  Is that right?  Can either of you please tell me about the circumstances surrounding his reception into the Oriental Orthodox Communion?  Thanks in advance.

Villatte, upon being deposed by the Episcopal church and refused reception into the RCC, the Russian Orthodox Church and the Dutch Old Catholic church, still wanted to be a bishop to lead the small Old Catholic community he had organized as part of the Episcopal church among the Belgian emigres of the diocese of Fond du Lac.

Now, at this time (1894), the schism within the Syriac Orthodox Church in India did not exist, except for the schism with the Anglicanised Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which was established by the British East India Company and a corrupt, schismatic bishop; the Church had deposited its reserves of gold with the British East India Company, which then refused to release them to anyone except the Protestant-leaning bishop; this happened in the period 1800-1820.  Thoyizoor might also have existed; I can't recall the reason why they came into being; they worship in the Orthodox manner and I consider them Orthodox, but their bishops are ordained in part by Mar Thoma bishops amd vice versa.

Now, where it gets interesting is that the undivided Syriac Orthodox Church in India, the Orthodox Church of the East, of Malankara, posessed a Western Rite.  This was formed by angry Latin Rite Catholics from the Portuguese speaking colony of Goa, who had settled in Sri Lanka; the Roman Catholics would not ordain any Goan Indian or indo-Portuguese (Luso-Indian, to be more precise) clergy for the parishes in Sri Lanka.  Thus, the Goans were received into the Syriac Orthodox Church, retaining their Western Rite, including vestments, the basic Mass, liturgical Latin, and so on, but embracing the Miaphysite Christology of our communion.

Villatte corresponded with a Metran (Metropolitan) Alvarez of the Western Rite Metropolis in Ceylon, and the latter offered to come to Fond du Lac, but Villatte instead travelled to Sri Lanka.

The conditions of his ordination as Mar Timotheos were that he not ordain any bishops without permission of the Patriarch and in accord with the Syriac tradition, which requires three bishops to ordain, and that he adhere to the Syriac Orthodox faith.

Initially, Vilatte held to these conditions, but his congregations rejected his attempt to blend Oriental Orthodoxy into their Catholicism (they had initially joined his mission only due to the lack of an Orthodox presence in the area).  Vilatte became involved with a schismatic branch of the Portuguese National Catholic Church, the priest of which, Kaminsky, if I recall correctly, had pestered Villatte for years to be ordained, but Vilatte refused on the grounds that he needed three bishops and approval of the Patriarch.   It is alleged he also demanded a large fee, simony; it is known he engaged in simony in 1920 with his final ordination, of the bishops of the African Orthodox Church, which by the way tried and failed to be received as a canonical Eastern Orthodox Church for black people (the founders were black nationalist Episcopalians who decided they should leave the Episcopal church for a "black Catholic church" as it were), but Vilatte was also throughout his career the subject of what appears to be continual harassment and persecution by the Episcopalian bishop who deposed him (who took posession of the diocese of Fond du Lac after the bishop who ordained Vilatte and supported his attempt to set up an Old Catholic Rite in the Episcopal Church, reposed).  So I myself am not convinced that Vilatte's initial refusal to ordain as a bishop this Polish chap had anything to do with simony, but was rather genuine obedience to the Syriac Orthodox Church.

At some point however, Vilatte decided he wished to be Old Catholic and not Syriac Orthodox, as his attempts to incorporate our theology into his church community alienated most of his congregation, who were basically there due to a lack of Roman Catholic parishes, and after Propaganda established missions, the remainder were Old Catholics and Polish Nationalists, who did not want to reject Chalcedon.  So ar that point, Vilatte ordained Kaminsky, and then in the following years travelled to Europe and went on something of an ordination spree, ordaining a great many would be Old Catholic bishops who allegedly were connected to Vilatte through Freemasonry, who were driven by anti-Papal sentiment.

The only really enduring churches he ordained bishops for were the American Catholic Church, which he also initially ran, which represented the fulfillment of his desire for an American Old Catholic Church, and the African Orthodox Church, which still has some parishes, although it used to be much larger.

Naturally when the Patriarch of Antioch found out that Vilatte had performed an unsanctioned ordination of a bishop, he deposed and excommunicated him.

After ordaining the bishops of the African Orthodox Church, Vilatte reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church and was allowed to live on the grounds of a monastery in his native France, where the monks referred to him as monsignor out of respect, despite him having renounced the episcopal state.  He was taken care of by a young American man, who took his posessions when Vilatte finally reposed in 1928.

Now, the American Catholic Church was somewhat successful under his successor, and grew to have a few thousand members.  In the 1970s, it became involved in the occult.  In the 1990s, a member of it, who had become a bishop, Mar Michael, realized the extremely heretical nature of it and broke away with his parishes in Tennessee, rejecting the Gnosticism and occult Catholic practices which continue to dominate the former ACC and its offshoots, like the "Eucharistic Catholic Church."

The parishes under Mar Michael became the Antiochian Catholic Church in America, and adopted a liturgy derived from the West Syriac Rite, but with Byzantine Rite influences, particularly where they lacked access to the Syriac Orthodox seasonal propers.  Later, they obtained copies of these via the Internet and Syriacised some of their services, although the man basically running the church at present loves the Byzantine rite and desires to retain aspects of it.  This man, Mar Andreas Cassian, is an auxilliary bishop; they also have two priests.  They briefly had a female priest, and their old website stated they supported the ordination of women, but this proved to be a mistake amd is no longer the case.  They are also opposed to the ordination of homosexuals to the priesthood, or men with homosexual inclinations, except in cases where it is clear this passion has been conquered and there will be no contact between the priest and young boys, for example, Fr. Seraphim Rose is someone they like.  One of their two male priests, who used to run their website and had a parish, but has health problems and is now semi-retired, was I believe a member of this website.

They used to own a building in downtown Knoxville, St. Demetrios Church, and this operated a soup kitchen which operated on a very large scale and was funded in part by the local Greek Orthodox community, who contributed to it both financially and with donations of food, as part of their charitable operations.  Unfortunately, this building was reposessed in the wake of the subprime mortgage crisis of 2008; I believe Mar Michael had mortgaged it or refinanced it with a subprime loan in order to pay the operating costs of the soup kitchen.  The closure of the soup kitchen did have an adverse effect on the homeless community.  I know of a similiar independent Baptist church in Skid Row in Los Angeles which has managed to fare somewhat better by making use of an old restaurant, which features an organ, although that church is in danger because of the poor health of their ageing, diabetic pastor.

Since that time, Mar Andreas Cassian has been assisting Mar Michael; he does not by the way normally style himself as a bishop.  He and Mar Michael were both ordained by other bishops askde from the ACC and have lines of succcession from persons other than Villatte.

I have spoken with Fr Andreas and like him.  I have verified that the ACCA's remaining parishes do have several families as members; at the St. Demetrios church they had fairly high attendance due to the soup kitchen, but in their St. Elias parish attendance is well over a dozen people on a typical Sunday, which for a vagante church is not bad.  The ACCA would like to be reconciled to the Syriac Orthodox, particularly the Indian church; Fr Andreas and Mar Michael both have living wives, but Fr Andreas has indicated to me that they would willingly give up any aspect of their clerical rank in order to accomodate a reconciliation, but he does not believe it likely that such a reconciliation could be arranged, because of not unfounded concerns about the heretical origins of the ACCA, which they are very candid about.  They adhere to the Oriental Orthodox doctrine, the writings of Sts. Cyril and Severus and our other theologians, rejecting Chalcedon and what followed.  They have a catechtical booklet which contains, if I remember correctly, the Didache, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, De Incarnatione by St. Athanasius, and the canons and decisions of the first three ecumenical councils.

Fr. Andreas attended the GoArch seminary in the late 70s I believe, but left when someone told him that the Greeks would not likely ordain a non-Greek in GoArch; this was I think a big mistake on his part as he would have made a superb priest.  He instead became a novice at Christminster, but found that after having grown used to the Byzantine Rite, he was not happy in a Western Rite monastery.  I believe he spent some time as a novice in another Orthodox monastery before deciding he lacked that vocation; thus he married, and met Mar Michael by accident, where he has happily worked since.

Of all of the vagante jurisdictions, the ACCA is the only one I have encountered that I really like, primarily because of their historic achievements in feeding the homeless in Knoxville, and because of the way in which their leader Mar Michael realized the ACA, founded by Vilatte, had become mired in the worst forms of Gnostic heresies and resolved to rid it of those, and the denomination continued to correct itself, for example, on the issue of the ordination of women. Fr. Andreas also recently started a new mission catering to two families in an area in the mountains near Knoxville which is extremely popular with Pagans and occultists, like Wicca practitioners, who believe the mountain in question, which I think is in the Appalachians, is magical.   The two families Fr. Andreas is serving in addition to his main parish are literally across the street from a Wiccan stone circle, an occult bookstore, and a Neo Pagan temple.  So I admire him for charging in there, and hope that is a success.

So, that is the history of Mar Vilatte's ordination, and also the only silver lining which that cloud produced, in my opinion (the ACCA, which is the only Vagante jurisdiction I have personally corresponded with that I think has really done meaningful work).  I have talked to several other vagantes, and as I mentioned before, most are cranks, some are committed heretics, and a few are theologically correct and have small congregations, that would be worth "scooping up" if we could convince their leaders to retire to monasteries and sign over the property.  I intend to reach out to that interesting-looking WOCC group to determine if they actually have congregations, or merely some priests and a chaplain without people to minister to.

The independent church I wish the Orthodox could scoop up the most is that Baptist mission on Skid Row that I memtioned, assuming their pastor could be talked into handing it over to a church with radically different theology.   Speaking of which, the Syriac Orthodox sort of have a semi Western Rite once more; in 2013 we received 900,000 former Catholics in Guatemala, and they are transitioning to use the West Syriac rite; I am not sure where they are in that process.  Alas, our Western Rite Metropolis in Sri Lanka died off completely; I dont think either of the two Syriac Orthodox jurisdictions even has a parish there using our normal liturgy.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2017, 01:22:14 AM »
I would note by the way the ACCA kept our Eucharistic liturgy basically unchanged; they merely added a Byzantine style litany at the start in place of the complex Husoyo, which at the time they did not understand how they worked.  They use several of our anaphoras; Fr. Andreas is particularly fond of the Anaphorae of St. Jacob of Sarugh and St. Severus, due to the strong Christological statements they contain.  I do like them and pray that their current missions will be a success, and that one day they might join the Syriac Orthodox Church.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2017, 11:09:23 AM »
Thank you for the comprehensive synopsis, Alpha!  Very much appreciated.  :)
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2017, 02:58:56 PM »
Thank you for the comprehensive synopsis, Alpha!  Very much appreciated.  :)

You're most welcome.

Today I found a website of a vagante bishop who uses the name of the American Orthodox Catholic Church set up by the Metropolia around 1920 or so, which folded in the 1930s amidst tensions between it, the Metropolia, the Rennovationists, who were trying to set up parishes in the US, and the Moscow Patriachate under HH Sergius.

This vagante claims to be the only valid Orthodox church for American converts, in America, and he claims to have won trademark infringement damages against another Vagante church, but it is clear that he has no parishes or subordinate clergy; I would not be suprised if he actually had no parishioners.

The arrogance of some of these people is staggering.   They are truly the self-important posing LARPers you outlined as one of your options.

I guess the main reason I like the ACCA is humility; they are honest about their small size, the limited scope of their mission, and their emergence from a heretical sect.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2017, 03:23:16 PM »
I guess the main reason I like the ACCA is humility; they are honest about their small size, the limited scope of their mission, and their emergence from a heretical sect.

I generally agree with your assessment of the ACCA.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2017, 03:55:15 PM »
In the case of any that were conducted before, how then does the Church not recognize these vagante lines as legit?

The Church would recognise them if they maintained their communion with the Church.  But I am unaware of any that did so or even tried and failed for whatever reason.  How, then, could we vouch for them?

So from their inception, each vagante church established by Vilatte or traceable to a Vilatte line made no pretensions of being in communion with the (Syriac) Church from which they claimed to derive legitimacy?

I don't know the individual histories of groups originating with Vilatte.  But I have never once heard of or come across references to any of these groups trying to maintain a connection with the Syriac Church, whether in the Middle East or India, or really any other legitimate Orthodox or Chalcedonian Orthodox jurisdiction.  Creating the appearance of legitimacy through a demonstrable lineage of "hands-to-head" apostolic succession seems to have been the main concern, which makes sense from one perspective, but that's not an Orthodox interpretation of apostolic succession. 
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2017, 04:55:59 PM »
Quote
I don't know the individual histories of groups originating with Vilatte.  But I have never once heard of or come across references to any of these groups trying to maintain a connection with the Syriac Church, whether in the Middle East or India, or really any other legitimate Orthodox or Chalcedonian Orthodox jurisdiction.  Creating the appearance of legitimacy through a demonstrable lineage of "hands-to-head" apostolic succession seems to have been the main concern, which makes sense from one perspective, but that's not an Orthodox interpretation of apostolic succession. 

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2017, 04:58:18 PM »
In the case of any that were conducted before, how then does the Church not recognize these vagante lines as legit?

The Church would recognise them if they maintained their communion with the Church.  But I am unaware of any that did so or even tried and failed for whatever reason.  How, then, could we vouch for them?

So from their inception, each vagante church established by Vilatte or traceable to a Vilatte line made no pretensions of being in communion with the (Syriac) Church from which they claimed to derive legitimacy?

I don't know the individual histories of groups originating with Vilatte.  But I have never once heard of or come across references to any of these groups trying to maintain a connection with the Syriac Church, whether in the Middle East or India, or really any other legitimate Orthodox or Chalcedonian Orthodox jurisdiction.  Creating the appearance of legitimacy through a demonstrable lineage of "hands-to-head" apostolic succession seems to have been the main concern, which makes sense from one perspective, but that's not an Orthodox interpretation of apostolic succession.

I agree entirely, with one exception:

Fr. Andreas told me that they hope that someday they can be received into the Syriac church, but right now with probably 30 or somparisihioners max, it would not be likely the Syriac hierarchy would have the time to talk to them.  But if it led to a situation where their current people would be taken care of pastorally, they would retire from their ecclesiastical offices; they are not attached to the episcopate.

This to me makes the ACCA a bit unique among vagante groups in that usually episcopi vagante want to be bishops more than anything else, whereas the ACCA carries on out of a sense of moral obligation, and also does not help encourage vaganteism by ordaining random bishops.  I believe that since they left the crumbling Gnostic-Spiritualist remnants of the ACC, which still exist on the West Coast (one of their bishops, a Mar Narsai, was a young man with full Pulickal brothers regalia; in the one photo of him I have seen he wore a blue phelonion with red trim that matched the one owned by Fr. Shara at St. Ephrems, had a drinking problem and killed himself, and they have been a bit less active since, I believe, but there are still a number of these fake Syriac bishops out here); the only bishop they ordained in partnership with a likeminded church which I think no longer exists or else has gone further down the vagante path, was Fr. Andreas, only to act as a backup in case Mar Michael was incapacitated, to ensure a continuity of pastoral care.

Almost every other vagante group I have encountered craves the episcopate; when I put the question to them "would you consider joining a canonical church if it meant resigning the episcopate permanently, and serving as a priest or in some other capacity, the answer has been an unequivocal "NO!"  Their fake episcopate and the lines of succession behind it are rheir most valuable possessions.

Now if push came to shove, I dont knowmif ACCA would do it or not, but they say they would.  There are no canonical Syriac parishes in their area, however, and given the priest shortage, the question of whether the Syriac Orthodox would send someone to replace them for the pastoral care of fewer than 30 Americans, seems doubtful.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 05:01:12 PM by Alpha60 »
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #98 on: September 04, 2017, 03:22:37 PM »
In the case of any that were conducted before, how then does the Church not recognize these vagante lines as legit?

The Church would recognise them if they maintained their communion with the Church.  But I am unaware of any that did so or even tried and failed for whatever reason.  How, then, could we vouch for them?

So from their inception, each vagante church established by Vilatte or traceable to a Vilatte line made no pretensions of being in communion with the (Syriac) Church from which they claimed to derive legitimacy?

I don't know the individual histories of groups originating with Vilatte.  But I have never once heard of or come across references to any of these groups trying to maintain a connection with the Syriac Church, whether in the Middle East or India, or really any other legitimate Orthodox or Chalcedonian Orthodox jurisdiction.  Creating the appearance of legitimacy through a demonstrable lineage of "hands-to-head" apostolic succession seems to have been the main concern, which makes sense from one perspective, but that's not an Orthodox interpretation of apostolic succession.

I agree entirely, with one exception:

Fr. Andreas told me that they hope that someday they can be received into the Syriac church, but right now with probably 30 or somparisihioners max, it would not be likely the Syriac hierarchy would have the time to talk to them.  But if it led to a situation where their current people would be taken care of pastorally, they would retire from their ecclesiastical offices; they are not attached to the episcopate.

This to me makes the ACCA a bit unique among vagante groups in that usually episcopi vagante want to be bishops more than anything else, whereas the ACCA carries on out of a sense of moral obligation, and also does not help encourage vaganteism by ordaining random bishops.  I believe that since they left the crumbling Gnostic-Spiritualist remnants of the ACC, which still exist on the West Coast (one of their bishops, a Mar Narsai, was a young man with full Pulickal brothers regalia; in the one photo of him I have seen he wore a blue phelonion with red trim that matched the one owned by Fr. Shara at St. Ephrems, had a drinking problem and killed himself, and they have been a bit less active since, I believe, but there are still a number of these fake Syriac bishops out here); the only bishop they ordained in partnership with a likeminded church which I think no longer exists or else has gone further down the vagante path, was Fr. Andreas, only to act as a backup in case Mar Michael was incapacitated, to ensure a continuity of pastoral care.

Almost every other vagante group I have encountered craves the episcopate; when I put the question to them "would you consider joining a canonical church if it meant resigning the episcopate permanently, and serving as a priest or in some other capacity, the answer has been an unequivocal "NO!"  Their fake episcopate and the lines of succession behind it are rheir most valuable possessions.

Now if push came to shove, I dont knowmif ACCA would do it or not, but they say they would.  There are no canonical Syriac parishes in their area, however, and given the priest shortage, the question of whether the Syriac Orthodox would send someone to replace them for the pastoral care of fewer than 30 Americans, seems doubtful.

Thank you both!

Alpha, could you please link to a website or something where I could read more about the ACCA?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2017, 03:55:07 PM »
In the case of any that were conducted before, how then does the Church not recognize these vagante lines as legit?

The Church would recognise them if they maintained their communion with the Church.  But I am unaware of any that did so or even tried and failed for whatever reason.  How, then, could we vouch for them?

So from their inception, each vagante church established by Vilatte or traceable to a Vilatte line made no pretensions of being in communion with the (Syriac) Church from which they claimed to derive legitimacy?

I don't know the individual histories of groups originating with Vilatte.  But I have never once heard of or come across references to any of these groups trying to maintain a connection with the Syriac Church, whether in the Middle East or India, or really any other legitimate Orthodox or Chalcedonian Orthodox jurisdiction.  Creating the appearance of legitimacy through a demonstrable lineage of "hands-to-head" apostolic succession seems to have been the main concern, which makes sense from one perspective, but that's not an Orthodox interpretation of apostolic succession.

I agree entirely, with one exception:

Fr. Andreas told me that they hope that someday they can be received into the Syriac church, but right now with probably 30 or somparisihioners max, it would not be likely the Syriac hierarchy would have the time to talk to them.  But if it led to a situation where their current people would be taken care of pastorally, they would retire from their ecclesiastical offices; they are not attached to the episcopate.

This to me makes the ACCA a bit unique among vagante groups in that usually episcopi vagante want to be bishops more than anything else, whereas the ACCA carries on out of a sense of moral obligation, and also does not help encourage vaganteism by ordaining random bishops.  I believe that since they left the crumbling Gnostic-Spiritualist remnants of the ACC, which still exist on the West Coast (one of their bishops, a Mar Narsai, was a young man with full Pulickal brothers regalia; in the one photo of him I have seen he wore a blue phelonion with red trim that matched the one owned by Fr. Shara at St. Ephrems, had a drinking problem and killed himself, and they have been a bit less active since, I believe, but there are still a number of these fake Syriac bishops out here); the only bishop they ordained in partnership with a likeminded church which I think no longer exists or else has gone further down the vagante path, was Fr. Andreas, only to act as a backup in case Mar Michael was incapacitated, to ensure a continuity of pastoral care.

Almost every other vagante group I have encountered craves the episcopate; when I put the question to them "would you consider joining a canonical church if it meant resigning the episcopate permanently, and serving as a priest or in some other capacity, the answer has been an unequivocal "NO!"  Their fake episcopate and the lines of succession behind it are rheir most valuable possessions.

Now if push came to shove, I dont knowmif ACCA would do it or not, but they say they would.  There are no canonical Syriac parishes in their area, however, and given the priest shortage, the question of whether the Syriac Orthodox would send someone to replace them for the pastoral care of fewer than 30 Americans, seems doubtful.

Thank you both!

Alpha, could you please link to a website or something where I could read more about the ACCA?

I could if one existed.  Fr. Gregory, who was a member here, was the maintainer of their website, and since his health problems, it has gone offline.   However, according to Fr. Andreas, the website no lomger reflected their current views, for example, regarding the ordination of women to the priesthood.  They supported it at the time the website was put up, having ordained one as a priest(ess), before realizing it was an error, and that the highest role a woman could serve in is deaconness.   I would bring it up on the Wayback Machine except I forgot the URL.

I haven't fully completed my investigation of the ACCA, and I am not suggesting people regard it as Orthodox, by the way.  I think at best it might be like Thoyizoor in miniature: a West Syriac jurisdiction lacking proper apostolic succession according to the model of St. Cyprian of Carthage.  They also use the reconstructed presanctified liturgy of St. Severus, the Signing of the Chalice, which Thoyizoor published.

I think a priority for a reunified Syriac Orthodox Church in India would be to absorb Thoyizoor, which would be nothing more than a stumbling block for Indian Christians under such a scenario.   As it stands, I am not sure whether or not they (the Malankara Independent Syrian Church) meet the OCNet definition of being Orthodox, or if they are equivalent to how we view the PNCC or the Assyrians.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2017, 04:08:43 PM »
By the way AN, the most sad Vagante church I have encountered is this one:

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com

I've spoken with their "bishop" a few times (who as far as I can tell was never ordained as a bishop but as a priest, in another jurisdiction; his diagram showing his apostolic succession does not make it clear how he obtained the episcopal dignity), and all I can say is that we should pray for his illumination.

His website reflects the confused hodgepodge of theological ideas he holds.

He insists when he was growing up, he attended a Celtic Orthodox Church in Detroit with 30-40 members.  This sounds unlikely but is possible, that he is a second generation vagante; the church in question could have been one of the small breakaway Anglo Catholic sects like the OSSB, which was received into Holy Orthodoxy as the Antiochian WRV in 1958.

He insists however this church was ancient, predating the arrival of Roman Catholicism into Ireland, and even now the Vatican, especially the Dominicans, were trying to wipe out all traces of its existence.

Also, I resent his statement about how his church is part of Johannine Christianity.  I hate it when people, comtrary to the clear instruction of St. Paul, identify with "Johannine" or "Pauline" or "Petrine" or "Lukan" Christianity or Spirituality.  For example, there is a quasi-monastic order officially recognized in the United Methodist Church called The Order of St. Luke, which sees as its missiom the promotion of "Lukan spirituality."  What does that even mean?  And how possibly are they going to do that in a denomination in which growing up, I did not once hear a sermon venerating St. Mary, or hear a minister refer to her as Theotokos or as the Mother of God?   Or hear the Magnificat, for that matter.

You would expect to encounter the evangelical canticles in a denomination forked from Anglicanism, but, nope.  In fact many Methodists I think would be confused by Luke chapter 1.

My guess is that in the context of the UMC, Lukan spirituality probably means something blasphemous, like adding fish to the Eucharist.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2017, 05:14:52 PM »
All interesting stuff, Alpha.  The most sad vagante church I have encountered - other than the so-called "Church of Trinidad" (which seems to be more accurately described as the church of one gentleman in New York and a handful of American followers acquired via Facebook) is the "International Communion of Orthodox Churches" - or another variant on this name, depending on what day of the week it is - otherwise known as the Timothy Paul Baymon group.

This poster features the presence of canonical EO priest Fr. Moses Berry:



The group is led by this guy, and seems to represent a hodgepodge of Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Charismatic, and other belief systems, and their clergy - including married men - are often vested as Syriac bishops, complete with a monastic eskimo.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 05:15:05 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2017, 06:13:53 PM »
Was Fr Moses really there, and did he know what he was getting into?
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2017, 07:02:57 PM »
All interesting stuff, Alpha.  The most sad vagante church I have encountered - other than the so-called "Church of Trinidad" (which seems to be more accurately described as the church of one gentleman in New York and a handful of American followers acquired via Facebook) is the "International Communion of Orthodox Churches" - or another variant on this name, depending on what day of the week it is - otherwise known as the Timothy Paul Baymon group.

This poster features the presence of canonical EO priest Fr. Moses Berry:

[img]https://static.wixstatic.com/media/93b919_b4565b2e11974f00bf821fb2f361
The group is led by this guy, and seems to represent a hodgepodge of Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Charismatic, and other belief systems, and their clergy - including married men - are often vested as Syriac bishops, complete with a monastic eskimo.

That Mar Narsai chap who killed himself, who had a drinking problem, was affiliated with that group I believe as well as one of the descendants of the ACA which the ACCA separated from in the late 1980s.

In my opinion, the Syriac Orthodox Church does have the most beautiful vestments, with the other Orthodox and traditional Roman, Ambrosian, Maronite vestmenfs fied for second, the traditional low church Anglicans and certain traditional Protestants, along with "Gothic-style" vestments in third, and the bland, banal vestments that are de rigeur in the Novus Ordo mass and your typical Episcopalian parish, fourth, and the vile vestments of the sort that the Bad Vestments blog features not earning a placement).  Thus, I understand why it is the preferred choice of vagantes.  They are also cheap, compared to Byzantine vestments.

Note btw I only collected vestments to give them away; I never wore them, as I never have owned a zostikon, exorason or an alb, and have no idea how to put them on; I have two Byzantine sets left which I was going to give to St. Anthony's in Florence, but I think I might give them to Vashon Island.  I am switching to collecting and then donating the covers for gospel books, and then hope to manufacure these myself, for mission churches which cannot afford the extremely expensive units made by Hovsepian Church Supply.

  I once made a pectoral cross for an Orthodox priest who is a friend of mine; metalwork is something of a hobby (as is fabrication using automated laithes and 3D printers, although I do not envisage producing any items for consecration using 3D printers yet, as I don't think the quality is good enough at this stage; they tend to emit plastic with rough edges which then have to be smoothed, and they can't work with metal, yet).

I actually got into that line because in network engineering, we frequently benefit from special shelves for our 19 inch racks and cable-management devices, to prevent spaghetti or spider webs, like this nightmare:

http://eecue.com/i/One-Wilshire-Meet-Me-Room-Cable-Monster-eecue_30394_kutr_l.jpg



Scary fact: most Internet traffic in the West Coast passes through that room.  It used to be much worse, too, before they instituted annual mandatory "cable mining" to remove fibre, coax and ethernet cables disconnected on one or both ends.  The harnesses, patch panels and other devices to keep cables in order and prevent the formation of such monstrosities, for example, "racetracks" for fibre optics, are ridiculously overprieced pieces of plastic, so I started making them myself.

But I digress.

~

I suppose I could make a killing using a 3D printer to manufacture kitschy rhinestone-studded mitres  for episcopi vagantes and price them at $99.99.  Something tells me, based on the usual state of their vestments, that they would not notice the difference.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 07:06:30 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #104 on: September 04, 2017, 07:03:55 PM »
Was Fr Moses really there, and did he know what he was getting into?

Good question.  The poster is vague enough so as to suggest some kind of ecumenical conference type event.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2017, 09:23:58 PM »
Was Fr Moses really there, and did he know what he was getting into?

I can't speak to his motives, of course, and whether he knew what he was getting into, but a friend interested in Orthodox outreach to the African-American community did send me a link to a Facebook post Fr. Moses made featuring him standing next to one of the other fellows on the poster - in full Syriac regalia - in a place that looked like vagante Comic-Con on cosplay night, so yes, I think he did attend.  Based on the post - in which he said something along the lines of the man he was standing with wanting to become a part of the Orthodox Church - I think he went their as a form of missionary outreach.  That's good, but in the process, I think any Orthodox clergyman getting involved would have to be very careful not to let these guys make hay of their attendance and make it out as if the Orthodox Church accepts them.  In my experience, vagantes love to do that.

That Mar Narsai chap who killed himself, who had a drinking problem, was affiliated with that group I believe as well as one of the descendants of the ACA which the ACCA separated from in the late 1980s.

I don't know that story.  What happened there?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2017, 10:33:39 PM »
Was Fr Moses really there, and did he know what he was getting into?

I can't speak to his motives, of course, and whether he knew what he was getting into, but a friend interested in Orthodox outreach to the African-American community did send me a link to a Facebook post Fr. Moses made featuring him standing next to one of the other fellows on the poster - in full Syriac regalia - in a place that looked like vagante Comic-Con on cosplay night, so yes, I think he did attend.  Based on the post - in which he said something along the lines of the man he was standing with wanting to become a part of the Orthodox Church - I think he went their as a form of missionary outreach.  That's good, but in the process, I think any Orthodox clergyman getting involved would have to be very careful not to let these guys make hay of their attendance and make it out as if the Orthodox Church accepts them.  In my experience, vagantes love to do that.

That Mar Narsai chap who killed himself, who had a drinking problem, was affiliated with that group I believe as well as one of the descendants of the ACA which the ACCA separated from in the late 1980s.

I don't know that story.  What happened there?

I mentioned it above.  He was a young man in his 30s, he owned beautiful Syriac regalia, and distressingly, in a bid to come across as accessible, in his profile page he said one would as likely find him at a bar as celebrating divine liturgy.  From what I understand, this turned into a drinks problem and he ended his life.  Kyrie eleison.

This is from the liberal group that the ACCA broke away from.

I assume he was unaware of the ancient canons which prohibit clergy from entering into taverns.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2017, 11:03:02 PM »
All interesting stuff, Alpha.  The most sad vagante church I have encountered - other than the so-called "Church of Trinidad" (which seems to be more accurately described as the church of one gentleman in New York and a handful of American followers acquired via Facebook) is the "International Communion of Orthodox Churches" - or another variant on this name, depending on what day of the week it is - otherwise known as the Timothy Paul Baymon group.

This poster features the presence of canonical EO priest Fr. Moses Berry:



The group is led by this guy, and seems to represent a hodgepodge of Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Charismatic, and other belief systems, and their clergy - including married men - are often vested as Syriac bishops, complete with a monastic eskimo.

Are there any video or audio recordings anywhere of this event that Fr. Moses Barry attended, particularly the part where Fr. Moses spoke?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 11:03:35 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #108 on: September 04, 2017, 11:11:26 PM »
The saddest vagante church for me is the Queluz Patriarchate (Queluz is a 11k-people city 3 hours from Rio), it's led by some guy consecrated by a fake Old Calendarist bishop (from the Holy Traditional Greek Orthodox Church, which is actually just a spin-off of the notorious Brazilian Apostolic Catholic Church) who can't even do the sign of the cross properly. A friend of mine trolled their Patriarch into adding him to a WhatsApp group called "I want to be an Orthodox priest", exposed him and was in turn threatened.

The Patriarch's ordination video is pure cringe. He was at this point ordained as an archbishop, but I guess this wasn't enough for him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PKHMhUsgK0

I can't speak to his motives, of course, and whether he knew what he was getting into, but a friend interested in Orthodox outreach to the African-American community did send me a link to a Facebook post Fr. Moses made featuring him standing next to one of the other fellows on the poster - in full Syriac regalia - in a place that looked like vagante Comic-Con on cosplay night, so yes, I think he did attend.  Based on the post - in which he said something along the lines of the man he was standing with wanting to become a part of the Orthodox Church - I think he went their as a form of missionary outreach.  That's good, but in the process, I think any Orthodox clergyman getting involved would have to be very careful not to let these guys make hay of their attendance and make it out as if the Orthodox Church accepts them.  In my experience, vagantes love to do that.
I saw that one! Posted by some Orthodox from Jamaica IIRC. I was a bit confused. Not sure if I'm less confused right now or more, lol
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 11:11:50 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #109 on: September 05, 2017, 12:10:14 AM »
By the way AN, the most sad Vagante church I have encountered is this one:

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com
There was a better Celtic one called "Celtic Orthodox Christian Church" with 2 (count 'em, 2!) "bishops", but it seems to be defunct (at least their website). I say "better" because they used a translation of the Stowe Missal, an actual Celtic rite, as the base. Someone preserved their missal at http://www.faithandworship.com/pdf/stowe%20missal.pdf though. If I ever wanted to join a bogus vagante church, that would have been the one  :P
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #110 on: September 05, 2017, 02:44:30 AM »
By the way AN, the most sad Vagante church I have encountered is this one:

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com
There was a better Celtic one called "Celtic Orthodox Christian Church" with 2 (count 'em, 2!) "bishops", but it seems to be defunct (at least their website). I say "better" because they used a translation of the Stowe Missal, an actual Celtic rite, as the base. Someone preserved their missal at http://www.faithandworship.com/pdf/stowe%20missal.pdf though. If I ever wanted to join a bogus vagante church, that would have been the one  :P

Hieromonk Fr. Aidan Keller hosted a copy of the Stowe Missal on his website, which I can probably link you to.  But here is the thing: the conspiracy theory types who insist Ireland was Orthodox until brutally converted by the Romans would reject the Stowe Missal, because it is a Missal, a variant on the standard Western liturgical pattern of the Roman Rite.

  Of the Latin speaking rites that have come down to us, only the Mozarabic is radically different from the Roman Rite; the other rites feature a similiar structure, similiar prayers, a similiar Canon (Anaphora) and so on, even the Ambrosian, which differs from the Roman in the liturgical calendar, length of fasts, liturgical colors, lectionary, number of scripture lessons, style of chant, vestment design, et cetera, but has a few parts common to the Roman Rite, most notably, the overall structure of the mass, and the Canon (most of the differences begin after the initial approach to the altar, the asperges and so on, with a litany, three lessons rather than two, a bit like the Novus Ordo, and some very different proper prayers said by the priest or congregation, which vary depending in the season).

Now the chap I linked to epitomizes the Vagante experience for me because he has at best a minimal congregation, lives and works out of a trailer, likes to be called "your grace", and as you can see from that website, holds to a number of peculiar ideas about the Church.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #111 on: September 05, 2017, 02:51:46 AM »
To be clear, I respect episcopi vagantes who have actual ministries, actual congregations, and priests serving under them.  I consider them small independent Old Catholic or schismatic Orthodox jurisdictions.  There are several tiny Continuing Anglican groups that would be called Vagante if it weren't for the Anglican in their name.  One is a traditional low church group near my former residence that uses the 1928 BCP.

The real Episcopi Vagante has no congregation, and simply desires the episcopal dignity, with no idea or desire or ability to take up the burden which properly comes with that office.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #112 on: September 05, 2017, 08:13:56 AM »
Was Fr Moses really there, and did he know what he was getting into?

I can't speak to his motives, of course, and whether he knew what he was getting into, but a friend interested in Orthodox outreach to the African-American community did send me a link to a Facebook post Fr. Moses made featuring him standing next to one of the other fellows on the poster - in full Syriac regalia - in a place that looked like vagante Comic-Con on cosplay night, so yes, I think he did attend.  Based on the post - in which he said something along the lines of the man he was standing with wanting to become a part of the Orthodox Church - I think he went their as a form of missionary outreach.  That's good, but in the process, I think any Orthodox clergyman getting involved would have to be very careful not to let these guys make hay of their attendance and make it out as if the Orthodox Church accepts them.  In my experience, vagantes love to do that.

That Mar Narsai chap who killed himself, who had a drinking problem, was affiliated with that group I believe as well as one of the descendants of the ACA which the ACCA separated from in the late 1980s.

I don't know that story.  What happened there?

I mentioned it above.  He was a young man in his 30s, he owned beautiful Syriac regalia, and distressingly, in a bid to come across as accessible, in his profile page he said one would as likely find him at a bar as celebrating divine liturgy.  From what I understand, this turned into a drinks problem and he ended his life.  Kyrie eleison.

This is from the liberal group that the ACCA broke away from.

I assume he was unaware of the ancient canons which prohibit clergy from entering into taverns.

Thank you.  Lord, have mercy.

All interesting stuff, Alpha.  The most sad vagante church I have encountered - other than the so-called "Church of Trinidad" (which seems to be more accurately described as the church of one gentleman in New York and a handful of American followers acquired via Facebook) is the "International Communion of Orthodox Churches" - or another variant on this name, depending on what day of the week it is - otherwise known as the Timothy Paul Baymon group.

This poster features the presence of canonical EO priest Fr. Moses Berry:



The group is led by this guy, and seems to represent a hodgepodge of Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Charismatic, and other belief systems, and their clergy - including married men - are often vested as Syriac bishops, complete with a monastic eskimo.

Are there any video or audio recordings anywhere of this event that Fr. Moses Barry attended, particularly the part where Fr. Moses spoke?

Not that I've seen.  Apparently, just the FB post that Rapha and I both saw.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #113 on: September 05, 2017, 06:57:28 PM »
Quote
The real episcopus vagans has no congregation, and simply desires the episcopal dignity, with no idea or desire or ability to take up the burden which properly comes with that office.

I believe something similar about "independent sacramental" churches: they're wrong but if people go to church there on Sunday so it's not just a few people pretending to be priests, they are in a sense real and get my respect.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #114 on: September 05, 2017, 10:15:28 PM »
Quote
The real episcopus vagans has no congregation, and simply desires the episcopal dignity, with no idea or desire or ability to take up the burden which properly comes with that office.

I believe something similar about "independent sacramental" churches: they're wrong but if people go to church there on Sunday so it's not just a few people pretending to be priests, they are in a sense real and get my respect.

I agree to a point - insofar as those ecclesial bodies that actually have a real pastoral dimension involving real souls are worth engaging with and attempting to bring into the Church - but I won't go as far as to say that they are real in any other sense.  For example, I do not believe that God is at all glorified in "Charismatic masses", "puppet masses", "clown masses", or the like - inclusive of any blend of liturgical worship and charismatic theatre - no matter where it's conducted, in a vagante body or in the RCC, and I don't believe that such a ceremony is a real liturgy or that the real presence of God is there in any such alleged sacrament.  I'm sure that advocates of such farces will unjustly cry "Pharisee!" on this point, but I don't take mockery of the Mysteries lightly.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 10:26:11 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #115 on: September 05, 2017, 10:29:18 PM »
Quote
The real episcopus vagans has no congregation, and simply desires the episcopal dignity, with no idea or desire or ability to take up the burden which properly comes with that office.

I believe something similar about "independent sacramental" churches: they're wrong but if people go to church there on Sunday so it's not just a few people pretending to be priests, they are in a sense real and get my respect.

I agree to a point - insofar as those ecclesial bodies that actually have a real pastoral dimension involving real souls are worth engaging with and attempting to bring into the Church - but I won't go as far as to say that they are real in any other sense.  For example, I do not believe that God is at all glorified in "Charismatic masses", "puppet masses", "clown masses", or the like - inclusive of any blend of liturgical worship and charismatic theatre - no matter where it's conducted, in a vagante body or in the RCC, and I don't believe that such a ceremony is a real liturgy or that the real presence of God is there in any such alleged sacrament.  I'm sure that advocates of such farces will unjustly cry "Pharisee!" on this point, but I don't take mockery of the Mysteries lightly.

+1
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.