Poll

How do you view those Episcopi Vagante churches which claim to have valid Apostolic succession from an Orthodox - usually Syriac - line?

The Vatican View - At least some such ordinations are "valid" but "unlawful".  Their bishops are bishops, just not in communion with the Universal Church.
The Eastern Orthodox View - Their ordinations are not actual ordinations at all, and thus the persons so ordained are not bishops at all.
It varies based upon the ecclesial body in question and their faith and practice.
They are just silly, self-important people who like to play dress up and declare themselves to be Patriarchs from their living rooms.
They are our estranged brothers in the Orthodox faith and dialogue with them is more important than that with the Catholics and Protestants.
I do not recognize their claims to Apostolic succession, but I view them simply as more heterodox Christians akin to the various Protestant sects.
Other: My point of view is not represented here, and I will explain it below.

Author Topic: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?  (Read 2318 times)

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2017, 11:04:40 PM »
the "Mother Queen of Drangiana and Princess of Bavian"

Coincidentally, I'm rooting for her to take the Iron Throne.  Shame the Night King killed one of her dragons.

No support (yet?). You may be right. The independent church that I know locally happens to be gay.

So it's just an impression you have based on one vagante church that happens to be near you?
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2017, 11:14:30 PM »
the "Mother Queen of Drangiana and Princess of Bavian"

Coincidentally, I'm rooting for her to take the Iron Throne.  Shame the Night King killed one of her dragons.
lol! Drangiana and Bavian are actual places in Iran, which I'm not sure whether makes the whole thing less bad or worse.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2017, 11:15:36 PM »
Real Old Catholics are under the Archbishop of Utrecht, which used to be a Catholic archbishopric but left centuries ago, allegedly (according to some Catholics) siding with the ultra-strict Jansenist movement. This hooked up with German liberal Catholics who left in the 1870s because they didn't believe in papal infallibility. The fake ones are nothing to do with this church now; their clergy founders may have been Old Catholics at some point. The WOCC are fake ones.

I find your implication that the PNCC are "fake old Catholics" because the Union of Utrecht expelled them for refusing to assent to the Union's ultra liberal views on gay marriage and the ordination of women deeply offensive.  Assuming that is your intended implication. 

I consider the Union of Utrecht fake Old Catholics because of their embrace of these heresies.  The Union of Scranton (PNCC and the Old Catholic Church of Norway), although small, because it has not embraced these heresies, and was ejected for it (something that hasnt happened to any other conservative church, as far as I am aware) are the real ones, in that their religion is closer to the Catholic faith of the Holy Orthodox church.

The PNCC probably could be a part of the Orthodox church; I suspect one factor hindering this might be resentment of Russians for reasons relating to the oppression of Poland by the Czars and the Soviets, but there is an autocephalous Polish Orthodox Church, of which our own Dominika is a member; they have no parishes in the US, where the PNCC is primarily located, but I remain hopeful that at some point we can incorporate the PNCC.

I think thats what ROCOR thought they were getting, when they were deceived by a vagante archbishop who had split from the PNCC with basically one parish, ordained a large number of priests wih no congregations, and then claimed to have 75 parishes.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2017, 11:20:09 PM »
I wouldn't call the PNCC fake Old Catholics. They're not claiming to be Old Catholic. They're their own thing.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2017, 11:23:15 PM »
the "Mother Queen of Drangiana and Princess of Bavian"

Coincidentally, I'm rooting for her to take the Iron Throne.  Shame the Night King killed one of her dragons.

No support (yet?). You may be right. The independent church that I know locally happens to be gay.

So it's just an impression you have based on one vagante church that happens to be near you?

I am rooting for someone in Westeros to develop automatic rifles and turn the conflict into a proper mechanized war in the manner of WWI.  Who needs dragons when you have a tank corps and a mobile infantry division with anti-aircraft guns?  I would like to see the Iron Throne dumped into the sea and a brutal fascist military dictatorship established, primarily because I am annoyed at the incredibly slow pace of the series and find the Westerosi culture, its religions and its anachronistic technology incredibly annoying.  The one bright spot of the series was Queen Cersei blowing up the Sept with the green liquid, which amounts to a proper weapon, and which procured the swift demise of a large number of annoying characters.  :P
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2017, 11:24:09 PM »
I wouldn't call the PNCC fake Old Catholics. They're not claiming to be Old Catholic. They're their own thing.

Aren't they?  They were a part of the Union of Utrecht until it forced them out.  They were founded on Old Catholic theological principles.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

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Offline Alpo

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2017, 11:27:35 PM »
Mainstream EOs, OOs and EO schismatics (Ukrainians, Greeks, Russians etc. not the silly Western people) are IMO the only who might have any serious claim on validity.

Not even "Old Catholics"?

Not in my opinion. The Church is not a set of doctrines or magical rituals. Also, Old Catholics schismed over papal infallability which is good in itself but they were put up with universal jurisdiction et al for centuries.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 11:31:21 PM by Alpo »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2017, 08:17:18 AM »
the "Mother Queen of Drangiana and Princess of Bavian"

Coincidentally, I'm rooting for her to take the Iron Throne.  Shame the Night King killed one of her dragons.
lol! Drangiana and Bavian are actual places in Iran, which I'm not sure whether makes the whole thing less bad or worse.

I've never heard of Bavian, but I thought Drangiana was an Achaemenid province in what is now Afghanistan.  You know, from Herodotus?  Is there still a place with that name in the modern world?  In any case, the joke was just too good to pass up!  :laugh:

the "Mother Queen of Drangiana and Princess of Bavian"

Coincidentally, I'm rooting for her to take the Iron Throne.  Shame the Night King killed one of her dragons.

No support (yet?). You may be right. The independent church that I know locally happens to be gay.

So it's just an impression you have based on one vagante church that happens to be near you?

I am rooting for someone in Westeros to develop automatic rifles and turn the conflict into a proper mechanized war in the manner of WWI.  Who needs dragons when you have a tank corps and a mobile infantry division with anti-aircraft guns?  I would like to see the Iron Throne dumped into the sea and a brutal fascist military dictatorship established, primarily because I am annoyed at the incredibly slow pace of the series and find the Westerosi culture, its religions and its anachronistic technology incredibly annoying.  The one bright spot of the series was Queen Cersei blowing up the Sept with the green liquid, which amounts to a proper weapon, and which procured the swift demise of a large number of annoying characters.  :P

Are you going to show up at George R.R. Martin's next book signing and punch him in the stomach?

Mainstream EOs, OOs and EO schismatics (Ukrainians, Greeks, Russians etc. not the silly Western people) are IMO the only who might have any serious claim on validity.

Not even "Old Catholics"?

Not in my opinion. The Church is not a set of doctrines or magical rituals. Also, Old Catholics schismed over papal infallability which is good in itself but they were put up with universal jurisdiction et al for centuries.

My apologies, Alpo.  In my haste yesterday, I misread what you wrote.  I thought you were saying that the vagante lines deriving from EO and OO sources had some validity, but not those deriving from Western lines.  I now see what you mean - that only the actual EO and OO Churches are legitimate - and I heartily agree.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 08:18:18 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2017, 09:34:58 AM »

The PNCC probably could be a part of the Orthodox church; I suspect one factor hindering this might be resentment of Russians for reasons relating to the oppression of Poland by the Czars and the Soviets, but there is an autocephalous Polish Orthodox Church, of which our own Dominika is a member; they have no parishes in the US, where the PNCC is primarily located, but I remain hopeful that at some point we can incorporate the PNCC.

Well, there is a branch functioning in Poland with 80 parishes with more or less 21 000 believers; despite belonging to Utrecht, I would say it's Old Catholic - I don't see it accept any heresies and as theologians from the Polish Orthodox Church say, there are no theological differences (mayby only the married bishops...), but... yeah, always there is a "but", I wrote about it in an earlier post.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2017, 11:05:05 AM »
I wouldnt want to punch George RR Martin for two reasons: the sluggish pacing is not his fault as much as HBO, and the overall success of his work creates a climate where my own work (which is SF, not fantasy, but is driven by political conflicts) has a better shot of being accepted, if I ever finish it. 

That people have enjoyed his work despite the slow pacing means people should enjoy similiar work but work that is less agonizingly slow (I think part of the reason for the slow pacing early on was a desire to get a sufficient budget to do the special effects for the dragons adequetely).  Also in a few cases the slow pacing did allow us to visit some fascinating places, like Qarth and Bravos.

Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.
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- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2017, 02:36:32 PM »
I wouldnt want to punch George RR Martin for two reasons: the sluggish pacing is not his fault as much as HBO, and the overall success of his work creates a climate where my own work (which is SF, not fantasy, but is driven by political conflicts) has a better shot of being accepted, if I ever finish it. 

I'm speechless.  How far along are you?

Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2017, 05:30:12 PM »
Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.

Sure, I do, too, but why don't you OO folks give our EO hierarchs a ring when you figure out a way to keep your vagantes part of the church once they've been there more than a minute.

I would love to be wrong, but I believe the EOC model was a one-time success, at least in the U.S.

To go back to the OP: I think of the well-intentioned ones as Protestants with Orthodox-adjacent theology. The bishop I mentioned earlier, whose big hangup was open versus closed communion, requires his seminarians (they have to have actual ministries) to read a whole lot of Orthodox theology.

And Serge is right about vagante jurisdictions often being a haven for gay wanna-be clergy. I've mentioned elsewhere that I've spent a lot of time reading about these folks, and it's a recurrent theme.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2017, 06:21:00 PM »
Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.

Sure, I do, too, but why don't you OO folks give our EO hierarchs a ring when you figure out a way to keep your vagantes part of the church once they've been there more than a minute.

I would love to be wrong, but I believe the EOC model was a one-time success, at least in the U.S.

So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2017, 06:33:00 PM »
I wouldnt want to punch George RR Martin for two reasons: the sluggish pacing is not his fault as much as HBO, and the overall success of his work creates a climate where my own work (which is SF, not fantasy, but is driven by political conflicts) has a better shot of being accepted, if I ever finish it. 

I'm speechless.  How far along are you?

Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.

45%, most of which can be read as a stand alone story in its present condition.  I would say 50%, excepf I decided some material requires a rewrite.  There are three volumes, and volume 1 is complefe, although I may pad it out a bit, as it is only 79,000 words, and I think a word count of 90,000 for the first two volumes would be optimal, 120,000 for the third.  Dune, by Frank Herbert, is something like 350,000 words, for purposes of comparison.

David Lean is my favorite director, and one thing he liked to do with his films is cut, almost unexpectedly, across material that one might expect to be subjected to, but which would in fact be extraneous.  This is particularly evident in Lawrence of Arabia and A Passage to India, but Dr. Zhivago featues similiar dramatic cuts back in time, as well as forwards.

 I like the idea of using these in the context of a novel, as opposed to subjecting the reader to a continuous, unending narrative.  I don't need to know when my characters use the loo (although a lavatory sequence is a good way to stress the humanity of a hero according to DH Lawrence; that said I can think of only four that are of interest, only two of which are in the context of science fiction, that being Dr. Heywood Floyd readimg the instructions on the Zero-G Toilet, and the other being a rather gross scene adding to the brutal oppression of Winston Smith in Nineteen Eighty Four, so I don't think we will be taking any trips into the lavatories of my science fiction setting). 

When writing fiction, I try to use an economy of prose, facilitated through an exact and demanding vocabulary, which aims for impressionism; if I can express something in four words uncommonly spoken vs. eight vernacular words, I will go for the first option.   The exception, of course, is my characters; I don't want them to sound like me, except of course for the ones that express some aspect of myself, and that is a constant struggle, to remove my verbal idiosyncracies from characters who should lack it.

I also have completed two short stories as well which are in the SF mold, and which may be of interest.  I am very much tempted to self publish the entire work in its written form free of charge on a blog, in the hopes of acquiring a readership that might enjoy the work in other media.  My dream would be to have it filmed in a manner that would blend elements of contemporary story-arc driven series on Netflix, Hulu, etc, with the style of 1960s epic filmmakimg associated with David Lean, Stanley Kubrick, and other directors, the kind of films that had a full theatrical overture and an en'tracte.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2017, 06:39:31 PM »
Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.

Sure, I do, too, but why don't you OO folks give our EO hierarchs a ring when you figure out a way to keep your vagantes part of the church once they've been there more than a minute.

I would love to be wrong, but I believe the EOC model was a one-time success, at least in the U.S.

So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?

If he is, he is inaccurate; the EOs successfully absorbed a nasty cult known as the Holy Order Of MANS which reformed into a psuedo Orthodox "Christ the Savior Brotherhood".

What is more, we would still have the BOC as part of the OO church were it not for exceptionally egregious conduct on the part of Metropolitan Seraphim.  I am not at liberty to say what happened, but I can say the "schism" was not really a schism so much as a way of sparing the Coptic church from an extreme embarassment.   As it happens, we still have most of the BOC's parishioners (a few went to Antioch), while His Eminence has a number of tiny, useless and empty chapels, amd a brand name.  So really, when it comes down to it, we still have the business; the BOC's separation from the Coptic church was close to being nominal.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2017, 06:56:29 PM »
Quote
So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?

That's my impression. The Eastern churches were victims; they were very trusting and were used horribly by these men, often clergy wannabes for the wrong reason.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2017, 07:15:56 PM »
Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.

Sure, I do, too, but why don't you OO folks give our EO hierarchs a ring when you figure out a way to keep your vagantes part of the church once they've been there more than a minute.

I would love to be wrong, but I believe the EOC model was a one-time success, at least in the U.S.

So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?

If he is, he is inaccurate; the EOs successfully absorbed a nasty cult known as the Holy Order Of MANS which reformed into a psuedo Orthodox "Christ the Savior Brotherhood".

...Which still retains some kookiness.

So it's a two-off, and they were 25-30 years ago.

I honestly don't know about the success of the mass EO receptions overseas because other than the mention that they're pending and that the numbers seem very, ahem, inflated, there's not a lot of followup coverage.

And I don't think we really have to explore what's happened with the WRO group receptions.

All of that said, I'd love the be wrong.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 07:16:44 PM by Agabus »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2017, 09:19:37 PM »
Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.

Sure, I do, too, but why don't you OO folks give our EO hierarchs a ring when you figure out a way to keep your vagantes part of the church once they've been there more than a minute.

I would love to be wrong, but I believe the EOC model was a one-time success, at least in the U.S.

So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?

If he is, he is inaccurate; the EOs successfully absorbed a nasty cult known as the Holy Order Of MANS which reformed into a psuedo Orthodox "Christ the Savior Brotherhood".

What is more, we would still have the BOC as part of the OO church were it not for exceptionally egregious conduct on the part of Metropolitan Seraphim.  I am not at liberty to say what happened, but I can say the "schism" was not really a schism so much as a way of sparing the Coptic church from an extreme embarassment.   As it happens, we still have most of the BOC's parishioners (a few went to Antioch), while His Eminence has a number of tiny, useless and empty chapels, amd a brand name.  So really, when it comes down to it, we still have the business; the BOC's separation from the Coptic church was close to being nominal.

Thank you, Alpha.  I agree.  And I think we still have the bulk of the actual personnel of the BOC within the Coptic Patriarchate.  They just aren't called by that name anymore.

Now regarding the main subject of this thread, it seems we are approaching a consensus that while the vagante churches are invalid in terms of apostolic succession, to the extent their faith aligns with ours, if they have actual congregations and do not merely consist of someone prancing about in assorted vestments, it can be worth it to integrate them if they desire this integration and if their clergy have sufficient humility to be reordained as deacons, retrained and then installed as priests of their flock, basically following the model of the Evangelical Orthodox Church integration into Antioch.

I can agree with that.

Sure, I do, too, but why don't you OO folks give our EO hierarchs a ring when you figure out a way to keep your vagantes part of the church once they've been there more than a minute.

I would love to be wrong, but I believe the EOC model was a one-time success, at least in the U.S.

So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?

If he is, he is inaccurate; the EOs successfully absorbed a nasty cult known as the Holy Order Of MANS which reformed into a psuedo Orthodox "Christ the Savior Brotherhood".

...Which still retains some kookiness.

So it's a two-off, and they were 25-30 years ago.

I honestly don't know about the success of the mass EO receptions overseas because other than the mention that they're pending and that the numbers seem very, ahem, inflated, there's not a lot of followup coverage.

And I don't think we really have to explore what's happened with the WRO group receptions.

All of that said, I'd love the be wrong.

I was about to bring that up.  So, you're not too trusting as it concerns either the EO or OO missions in Latin America, huh?
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2017, 09:20:09 PM »
Quote
So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?

That's my impression. The Eastern churches were victims; they were very trusting and were used horribly by these men, often clergy wannabes for the wrong reason.

In some instances, I believe you're right.  I do think there have been some notable successes though.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2017, 10:53:51 PM »
If he is, he is inaccurate; the EOs successfully absorbed a nasty cult known as the Holy Order Of MANS which reformed into a psuedo Orthodox "Christ the Savior Brotherhood".
The Archeparchy of Brazil (PAOC), of which I'm part, has roughly similar origins (esoteric group, then non-canonical Orthodox), but its path toward and after the Orthodox Church was much cleaner and more successful. The group grew exponentially after becoming Orthodox, and finally became canonical, while MANS seems to have done the opposite (lost members and just one part and another of them became canonical Orthodox).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 10:58:05 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2017, 01:38:34 AM »
Quote
So you're saying that on the whole - with the exception of the EOC episode - the EO and OO are unsuccessful at retaining vagante groups they've absorbed?

That's my impression. The Eastern churches were victims; they were very trusting and were used horribly by these men, often clergy wannabes for the wrong reason.

In some instances, I believe you're right.  I do think there have been some notable successes though.

Indeed, we can count at least five: the Anglo Catholic groups that formed the nucleus of the ROCOR and Antiochian WRV, the Evangelical Orthodox Church, Christ the Savior Brotherhood, and the British Orthodox Church.

And these have been big wins; they have taken the Church much deeper into new demographics, bringing many Western Christians into Holy Orthodoxy.   So I see no reason not to try to continue to pick up strays as we move towards salvation; like stray cats, some will hiss at us and not let us take them, but others, a minority, perhaps, but those previously domesticated by Orthodox-leaning theology, will embrace us enthusiastically.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2017, 09:42:25 AM »
Indeed, we can count at least five: the Anglo Catholic groups that formed the nucleus of the ROCOR and Antiochian WRV, the Evangelical Orthodox Church, Christ the Savior Brotherhood, and the British Orthodox Church.

And these have been big wins; they have taken the Church much deeper into new demographics, bringing many Western Christians into Holy Orthodoxy.   

I think that's an exceedingly rosy view of the success for the WRV.

And, for that matter, the BOC.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2017, 09:47:17 AM »
Unless something dramatically changes in the attitudes of clergy and hierarchs toward WR, I don't see it expanding far beyond the little niche it currently inhabits.

I also wonder if absorbing Christ the Savior Brotherhood can necessarily be counted a win.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 09:51:21 AM by Iconodule »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2017, 12:07:38 PM »
Unless something dramatically changes in the attitudes of clergy and hierarchs toward WR, I don't see it expanding far beyond the little niche it currently inhabits.

I also wonder if absorbing Christ the Savior Brotherhood can necessarily be counted a win.

It was a poisonous venus fly trap luring people away from tne Church, and it is now effectively defunct.  The only problem that we have had with them since the takeover,, although I concede it was a very bad one, was the abusive conditions at the retreat for troubled youth run by the Italian ex-HOOM priest, which stopped short of paedophilia, thankfully, and as soon as they were made aware of it, the Bulgarian bishops in the US investigated and wound up shutting the facility down and deposing the abusive priest in question.

However, had CSB remained independent, there would have been no one in a position to reign in those excesses, which I think pale in comparison with those of Elder Pamteleimon when he was the abbot and archbishop in charge of Holy Transfiguration Monastery and HOCNA.   HOCNA was a schismatic group originally created by him so he could evade ROCOR's investigation into the allegations he was abusing novice monks, which in the grand scheme of things, by the way, comes across as vagante-ish, although to their credit, they did catch him and force him to retire eventually,

Its very important that we get the deeds on the real estate when we annex a vagante group, to keep them from having undesirable  "second thoughts" and to ensure if we have another issue such as that at the youth retreat in Alaska, we can shut it down, and not have it slip away like Elder Panteleimon into a new non-canonical jurisdiction.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2017, 05:46:15 PM »
Well, there is a branch functioning in Poland with 80 parishes with more or less 21 000 believers; despite belonging to Utrecht, I would say it's Old Catholic - I don't see it accept any heresies and as theologians from the Polish Orthodox Church say, there are no theological differences (mayby only the married bishops...), but... yeah, always there is a "but", I wrote about it in an earlier post.

Well what is their ecclesiology? Is it not some kind of branch theory?

And if they are still members of Utrecht, that basically means that while they wouldn't hole opinions of other Utrecht Union members themselves (for example concerning homosexuality), they basically believe that one can be fully part of the Church while holding such opinions. And since the Union of Utrecht is in full communion with the Anglicans, that means doctrinal pluralism to the point of accepting Calvinism and such things, and one is still considered fully part of the Church... this is what some Orthodox bishops and monks have included in definitions of "ecumenism". Even the moderate definitions.

And indeed, Old Catholics, both the liberal and the conservative kinds, seem to be a lot into ecumenism.


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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2017, 06:24:07 PM »
Well, there is a branch functioning in Poland with 80 parishes with more or less 21 000 believers; despite belonging to Utrecht, I would say it's Old Catholic - I don't see it accept any heresies and as theologians from the Polish Orthodox Church say, there are no theological differences (mayby only the married bishops...), but... yeah, always there is a "but", I wrote about it in an earlier post.

Well what is their ecclesiology? Is it not some kind of branch theory?

And if they are still members of Utrecht, that basically means that while they wouldn't hole opinions of other Utrecht Union members themselves (for example concerning homosexuality), they basically believe that one can be fully part of the Church while holding such opinions. And since the Union of Utrecht is in full communion with the Anglicans, that means doctrinal pluralism to the point of accepting Calvinism and such things, and one is still considered fully part of the Church... this is what some Orthodox bishops and monks have included in definitions of "ecumenism". Even the moderate definitions.

And indeed, Old Catholics, both the liberal and the conservative kinds, seem to be a lot into ecumenism.

Well, it seems that Polish Old Catholics (at least the Polish Catholic Church and Old Catholic Mariavite Church) have maintanined an autonomy in their theology and the practices despite belonging to the Utrecht; at least that's what I was, more or less, said by the students of the Old Catholic section at the Christian Theological Academy (our Orthodox section have some subjects with them together).
So, the ecclosiology is something based on the episcopacy and conciliarity coming from the first millenium of the Christianity. The dogmat may be only this thing, that has been believe always and commonly; so, they accept as the ecumenical only the 7 councils. The sources of the faith and dogmas are the Holy Scriptures and unbroke, uninterrupted Holy Tradition. They don't regognise papal infability (and the universal authority of the pope over the Church), immaculate conception, Filioque...
They don't accept homosexualism.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2017, 07:15:10 PM »
PNCC founding Prime Bishop Franciszek Hodur wrote a book, Apocalypse of the Twentieth Century; I've read it. It's not the pious things you'd expect from a Catholic bishop from Poland, even one who had broken with Rome. It's not Orthodox. It's not even Protestant. It's more like the Unitarians and the Masons (many PNCC clergy are Masons), with America and the Poles being special in God's plan. He even mentions women priests.

The parishes remained very Catholic, even traditional, Poles being conservative, but my point is it's ironic that a church founded and led by crypto-radicals ended up relatively conservative (liturgically not anymore; they've copied the Novus Ordo), the Union of Scranton in a position to replace Utrecht for more conservative Old Catholics, such as the Eastern European ones who are often Catholic priests who switched to marry.

(The Catholic Church recognizes their bishops and Mass.)

I don't think the PNCC were ever vagantes; they were and are real congregations, now of generational members. (They have a parish here in Philadelphia, St. Valentine's.)

Interestingly they've picked up a few ex-Catholics in America in the wake of Catholic parish closings in our old Northeastern industrial base.

There are two factions, a relatively conservative one that wants a reconciliation with honor with Catholicism where they can keep their distinctive practices (I say if it's not doctrine, go for it) and a liberal one that wants to be like the Episcopalians (under Hodur they went into communion with the Episcopalians, in 1946; the PNCC ended that in 1977 over women's ordination).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 07:16:47 PM by The young fogey »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2017, 09:26:08 AM »
Well, it seems that Polish Old Catholics (at least the Polish Catholic Church and Old Catholic Mariavite Church) have maintanined an autonomy in their theology and the practices despite belonging to the Utrecht; at least that's what I was, more or less, said by the students of the Old Catholic section at the Christian Theological Academy (our Orthodox section have some subjects with them together).
So, the ecclosiology is something based on the episcopacy and conciliarity coming from the first millenium of the Christianity. The dogmat may be only this thing, that has been believe always and commonly; so, they accept as the ecumenical only the 7 councils. The sources of the faith and dogmas are the Holy Scriptures and unbroke, uninterrupted Holy Tradition. They don't regognise papal infability (and the universal authority of the pope over the Church), immaculate conception, Filioque...
They don't accept homosexualism.

Maybe my wording was unclear. Do they not believe that one can be a valid part of the church and at the same time hold heresies? For example, they themselves don't marry gays, but they are in full communion with the Old Catholics of Utrecht/Holland, who do. Or they don't believe in filioque, but they are in full communion withthe Church of England, who does...

I believe this is not acceptable from an Orthodox point of view. If an Orthodox diocese were to teach the filioque and to include it in its creed, of course we would break communion with them. And I see a problem in the ecclesiology of those who don't see the necessity of breaking communion. Unity of the Church means unity in faith.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2017, 09:33:48 AM »
the Union of Scranton in a position to replace Utrecht for more conservative Old Catholics,

The Union of Scranton rejects women's ordination and homosexuality. But otherwise, it's the same as the Union of Utrecht. Or let's say, it is exactly the Union of Utrecht before some of them introduced the two points mentioned before.

So the Union of Scranton means being in communion with filioquists, Calvinists, deniers of the real presence in the Eucharist etc. Surely Orthodoxy does not mean to be in communion with heretics.

And whereras I am quite in favour of dialogue with non-Orthodox Christians, we cannot share the Eucharist if we don't even believe in the same Holy Spirit to come down on the gifts, let alone if we cannot even agree whether the gifts are truly transformed ...

I always found it completely odd that Lutherans are now taking communion, in which they see a real presence, together with Reformed Protestants, who consider the same gifts to be mere bread and wine. If let's say the PNCC and the Anglican Church of Uganda take communion together, it seems to be about the same.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2017, 11:00:21 AM »
Its very important that we get the deeds on the real estate when we annex a vagante group, to keep them from having undesirable  "second thoughts" ...

A positive rephrasing would be, "as a demonstration of their good faith."

I'm not much for keeping someone around who wants to leave. Or for retributive reassignment of property, vis-a-vis the Episcopalians.

Probably just an old congregational hangup on my part.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2017, 02:29:24 PM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2017, 02:40:25 PM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

They advertise having a cathedral in an area I go several times a year, but I've never seen it despite walking the street where it is supposedly located, even as recently as two weeks ago. I'm guessing based on the district that it's a storefront.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2017, 02:47:27 PM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

What I can specifically tell you about that is that when word of Rene Villatte's ordinations, particularly of the African Orthodox Church, which allegedly involved simony, reached the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Indian Catholicos, letters were sent declaring him deposed, and declaring all of his ordinations invalid (either from that point, or entirely; I think the latter).  The African Orthodox Church ordination was the specific episode that led to some fury and initiated his formal removal from the Syriac church; I believe this was due to him being paid a fee or charging a fee for the ordination, but I think this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he was heading for excommunication before the AOC incident.

The AOC in particular is not recognized as legitimate by us, which I think is good; we are in communion with the original "African-Initiated Church" as the WCC calls them, in the form of the Ethiopians, and we don't need to be in communion with people who dedicate one of their largest parishes to "St. John Coltrane" (and who also backup the choir at St. Gregory of Nyassa Episcopal Church across the bay (a parish so heretical even by ECUSA standards; their iconography depicts a dancing Kangxi Emperor among other dancing saints, and they have an anaphora dedicated to Cain, the proto-murderer).
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2017, 03:41:17 PM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

What I can specifically tell you about that is that when word of Rene Villatte's ordinations, particularly of the African Orthodox Church, which allegedly involved simony, reached the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Indian Catholicos, letters were sent declaring him deposed, and declaring all of his ordinations invalid (either from that point, or entirely; I think the latter).  The African Orthodox Church ordination was the specific episode that led to some fury and initiated his formal removal from the Syriac church; I believe this was due to him being paid a fee or charging a fee for the ordination, but I think this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he was heading for excommunication before the AOC incident.

He was deposed for simony?  LOL, as if he was unique in that, if true at all.  Simony in one form or another is still with us. 
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2017, 03:48:29 PM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here...

They are not legitimate.  Any "relationship" with the "Syriac Patriarch" is a technicality so extreme it's worthless. 
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2017, 04:04:34 PM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

What I can specifically tell you about that is that when word of Rene Villatte's ordinations, particularly of the African Orthodox Church, which allegedly involved simony, reached the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Indian Catholicos, letters were sent declaring him deposed, and declaring all of his ordinations invalid (either from that point, or entirely; I think the latter).  The African Orthodox Church ordination was the specific episode that led to some fury and initiated his formal removal from the Syriac church; I believe this was due to him being paid a fee or charging a fee for the ordination, but I think this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he was heading for excommunication before the AOC incident.

He was deposed for simony?  LOL, as if he was unique in that, if true at all.  Simony in one form or another is still with us.

Actually, I made an error.  He was deposed for ordaining a schismatic PNCC priest as bishop without permission of Ignatius IV.

On September 9, 1898, Vilatte was excommunicated by Ignatius Peter IV for consecrating Kaminski in a way contrary to the canon law of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch.[4](p67) Anson wrote that in his agreement with Alvares, Vilatte acknowledged that if he "deviated from their Canons and Rules, he would be subject to dismissal from the dignity of Metropolitan."[1](p108) Bishops were consecrated by Vilatte "without authority" from the Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, who "therefore does not recognize such consecrations or their derivative consecrations and ordinations."[62](p1070)[76](pp39–40)

----

However, Kamimski did pay him.  The reason Vilatte waited so long to ordain him is initially he demanded a large fee which Kamimski lacked.  Almost all of his subsequent ordinations involved simony.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #81 on: August 30, 2017, 04:15:55 PM »
I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

They advertise having a cathedral in an area I go several times a year, but I've never seen it despite walking the street where it is supposedly located, even as recently as two weeks ago. I'm guessing based on the district that it's a storefront.

If you ever decide to dig a little deeper and maybe visit them, please share the results!

I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

What I can specifically tell you about that is that when word of Rene Villatte's ordinations, particularly of the African Orthodox Church, which allegedly involved simony, reached the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Indian Catholicos, letters were sent declaring him deposed, and declaring all of his ordinations invalid (either from that point, or entirely; I think the latter).  The African Orthodox Church ordination was the specific episode that led to some fury and initiated his formal removal from the Syriac church; I believe this was due to him being paid a fee or charging a fee for the ordination, but I think this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he was heading for excommunication before the AOC incident.

The AOC in particular is not recognized as legitimate by us, which I think is good; we are in communion with the original "African-Initiated Church" as the WCC calls them, in the form of the Ethiopians, and we don't need to be in communion with people who dedicate one of their largest parishes to "St. John Coltrane" (and who also backup the choir at St. Gregory of Nyassa Episcopal Church across the bay (a parish so heretical even by ECUSA standards; their iconography depicts a dancing Kangxi Emperor among other dancing saints, and they have an anaphora dedicated to Cain, the proto-murderer).

Good info.  Thanks, Alpha.

I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here...

They are not legitimate.  Any "relationship" with the "Syriac Patriarch" is a technicality so extreme it's worthless.

Thank you.

I wonder if Mor or any of our posters of the Syriac tradition would be so kind as to comment on how we (Oriental Orthodox) should view those specific vagante churches claiming descent from Syriac lines - such as the African Orthodox Church - as here:

Quote
Relationship to Syriac Patriarch[edit]
A notice from the Syriac Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East concerning schismatic bodies and episcopi vagantes, dated December 10, 1938, states that "after direct expulsion from official Christian communities" some schismatic bodies exist, including "all the sects claiming succession through Vilatte," that claim "without truth to derive their origin and apostolic succession from some ancient Apostolic Church of the East" and
[...] some of these schismatic bodies have with effrontery published statements which are untrue as to an alleged relation "in succession and ordination" to our Holy Apostolic Church and her forefathers, We find it necessary to announce to all whom it may concern that we deny any and every relation whatsoever with these schismatic bodies and repudiate them and their claims absolutely. Furthermore, our Church forbids any and every relationship, and above all, intercommunion with all and any of these schismatic sects and warns the public that their statements and pretensions [...] are altogether without truth.[3](p70)
The notice named the AOC specifically as an example of such schismatic bodies.[3](p70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Orthodox_Church#Relationship_to_Syriac_Patriarch

What I can specifically tell you about that is that when word of Rene Villatte's ordinations, particularly of the African Orthodox Church, which allegedly involved simony, reached the Patriarch of Antioch, and the Indian Catholicos, letters were sent declaring him deposed, and declaring all of his ordinations invalid (either from that point, or entirely; I think the latter).  The African Orthodox Church ordination was the specific episode that led to some fury and initiated his formal removal from the Syriac church; I believe this was due to him being paid a fee or charging a fee for the ordination, but I think this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and that he was heading for excommunication before the AOC incident.

He was deposed for simony?  LOL, as if he was unique in that, if true at all.  Simony in one form or another is still with us.

Actually, I made an error.  He was deposed for ordaining a schismatic PNCC priest as bishop without permission of Ignatius IV.

On September 9, 1898, Vilatte was excommunicated by Ignatius Peter IV for consecrating Kaminski in a way contrary to the canon law of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch.[4](p67) Anson wrote that in his agreement with Alvares, Vilatte acknowledged that if he "deviated from their Canons and Rules, he would be subject to dismissal from the dignity of Metropolitan."[1](p108) Bishops were consecrated by Vilatte "without authority" from the Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, who "therefore does not recognize such consecrations or their derivative consecrations and ordinations."[62](p1070)[76](pp39–40)

----

However, Kamimski did pay him.  The reason Vilatte waited so long to ordain him is initially he demanded a large fee which Kamimski lacked.  Almost all of his subsequent ordinations involved simony.

So if I understand you guys (Mor and Alpha) correctly, Vilatte was canonically ordained by the Syriac Church (or independent Malankara Church?  I'm not clear on the timeline or whether the MOSC was part of the SOC at this point), but later fell out of favor because of his sketchy activities (including rampant simony) and all of the ordinations he conducted were declared null and void?  Even those before his deposition and excommunication?  Is that right?  Can either of you please tell me about the circumstances surrounding his reception into the Oriental Orthodox Communion?  Thanks in advance.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2017, 05:21:56 PM »
I don't remember reading that Vilatte practiced simony but it wouldn't have been out of character. At least one of his parishes in Wisconsin is still around, long Episcopal.
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #83 on: August 30, 2017, 05:30:49 PM »
Well, it seems that Polish Old Catholics (at least the Polish Catholic Church and Old Catholic Mariavite Church) have maintanined an autonomy in their theology and the practices despite belonging to the Utrecht; at least that's what I was, more or less, said by the students of the Old Catholic section at the Christian Theological Academy (our Orthodox section have some subjects with them together).
So, the ecclosiology is something based on the episcopacy and conciliarity coming from the first millenium of the Christianity. The dogmat may be only this thing, that has been believe always and commonly; so, they accept as the ecumenical only the 7 councils. The sources of the faith and dogmas are the Holy Scriptures and unbroke, uninterrupted Holy Tradition. They don't regognise papal infability (and the universal authority of the pope over the Church), immaculate conception, Filioque...
They don't accept homosexualism.

Maybe my wording was unclear. Do they not believe that one can be a valid part of the church and at the same time hold heresies? For example, they themselves don't marry gays, but they are in full communion with the Old Catholics of Utrecht/Holland, who do. Or they don't believe in filioque, but they are in full communion withthe Church of England, who does...

I believe this is not acceptable from an Orthodox point of view. If an Orthodox diocese were to teach the filioque and to include it in its creed, of course we would break communion with them. And I see a problem in the ecclesiology of those who don't see the necessity of breaking communion. Unity of the Church means unity in faith.

I agree that "Unity of the Church means unity in faith" but... I guess, just guess, that they don't have any choice. I mean, they're not ready to join Orthodoxy, they don't agree with Catholicism and with Protestantism, but can't leave the Utrecht to... Not become vagante ;)
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2017, 05:59:12 PM »
I agree that "Unity of the Church means unity in faith" but... I guess, just guess, that they don't have any choice.

Well, they should ask themselves if they are willing to be in communion with heterodox structures. And honestly, the historical answer of Old Catholics is "No problem". And this has been the case since the 1920s when the Bonn Agreement with the Anglicans was signed.

So I am convinced that one of the main reasons they haven't become Orthodox is their ecclesiology.

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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2017, 06:05:01 PM »
So if I understand you guys (Mor and Alpha) correctly, Vilatte was canonically ordained by the Syriac Church (or independent Malankara Church?  I'm not clear on the timeline or whether the MOSC was part of the SOC at this point)...

IIRC, Rene Vilatte was consecrated "Mor Timotheos" by SS Gregorios of Parumala, Julius Alvarez of Goa, and another (non-canonised) bishop whose name escapes me right now.  This means it was before the internal schism from which we get "MOSC" and "MSOC". 

Quote
...but later fell out of favor because of his sketchy activities (including rampant simony) and all of the ordinations he conducted were declared null and void?  Even those before his deposition and excommunication?  Is that right?  Can either of you please tell me about the circumstances surrounding his reception into the Oriental Orthodox Communion?  Thanks in advance.

Alpha60 may have access to better information, I don't know.  I thought a cursory review of the wikipedia article would demonstrate that it was reasonably accurate, but I don't know enough to say...either it's written from a particular slant or the situation really was that screwy, maybe a bit of both.  There are resources in Malayalam, but even if I have them (I'm not sure), it would take me a while to get through. 

Technically, if someone is being deposed for X, it only affects subsequent attempted ministrations, not those performed within the bosom of the Church.  But while it could be the case that someone could be deposed for X and some/all prior ministrations could be declared null for cause, it would also not surprise me if it were done without cause (i.e., as a form of retribution), even if that's not exactly correct.  And in any case, I'm not sure why deposing a bishop for simony would only apply to "foreign" bishops.  It's shameful to say, but simony is something that is not limited to a random 19th century French convert. 
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2017, 07:01:44 PM »
So if I understand you guys (Mor and Alpha) correctly, Vilatte was canonically ordained by the Syriac Church (or independent Malankara Church?  I'm not clear on the timeline or whether the MOSC was part of the SOC at this point)...

IIRC, Rene Vilatte was consecrated "Mor Timotheos" by SS Gregorios of Parumala, Julius Alvarez of Goa, and another (non-canonised) bishop whose name escapes me right now.  This means it was before the internal schism from which we get "MOSC" and "MSOC". 

Quote
...but later fell out of favor because of his sketchy activities (including rampant simony) and all of the ordinations he conducted were declared null and void?  Even those before his deposition and excommunication?  Is that right?  Can either of you please tell me about the circumstances surrounding his reception into the Oriental Orthodox Communion?  Thanks in advance.

Alpha60 may have access to better information, I don't know.  I thought a cursory review of the wikipedia article would demonstrate that it was reasonably accurate, but I don't know enough to say...either it's written from a particular slant or the situation really was that screwy, maybe a bit of both.  There are resources in Malayalam, but even if I have them (I'm not sure), it would take me a while to get through. 

Technically, if someone is being deposed for X, it only affects subsequent attempted ministrations, not those performed within the bosom of the Church.  But while it could be the case that someone could be deposed for X and some/all prior ministrations could be declared null for cause, it would also not surprise me if it were done without cause (i.e., as a form of retribution), even if that's not exactly correct.  And in any case, I'm not sure why deposing a bishop for simony would only apply to "foreign" bishops.  It's shameful to say, but simony is something that is not limited to a random 19th century French convert.

Thanks for the information.  So I guess the issue then is determining which ordinations were conducted before and which were conducted after his canonical deposition.

In the case of any that were conducted before, how then does the Church not recognize these vagante lines as legit?
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2017, 08:10:30 PM »
In the case of any that were conducted before, how then does the Church not recognize these vagante lines as legit?

The Church would recognise them if they maintained their communion with the Church.  But I am unaware of any that did so or even tried and failed for whatever reason.  How, then, could we vouch for them? 
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2017, 08:16:11 PM »
Recognizing lines outside the church isn't Orthodox. Simony or not, Vilatte was an adventurer, a minister for fun and profit, who abused at least one Eastern church among others.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 08:16:39 PM by The young fogey »
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Re: How Do You View the "Orthodox" Episcopi Vagante Churches?
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2017, 10:23:43 PM »
In the case of any that were conducted before, how then does the Church not recognize these vagante lines as legit?

The Church would recognise them if they maintained their communion with the Church.  But I am unaware of any that did so or even tried and failed for whatever reason.  How, then, could we vouch for them?

So from their inception, each vagante church established by Vilatte or traceable to a Vilatte line made no pretensions of being in communion with the (Syriac) Church from which they claimed to derive legitimacy?
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