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Online Dominika

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Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« on: August 25, 2017, 07:52:57 AM »
Yesterday there was council of the bishops of t Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church. All six Polish bishops took part in it; as usually, 2 Brazilian bishops had no any influence on the decisions ;)

As in the period on 1 year Polish Church lost 3 bishops, and in consequence one diocese was without the ordinary, and there was only one vicar bishop (that didn't want to move from Podlasie and become ordinary of the diocese with vacancy), it was important to choose new hierarch(s). The chirotonias of the new hierarchs will be first ones in the Polish Church after 2007, when fathers George and Paisios were elected to be bishops.

So, the new bishops are:

Barsonophius (Doroszkiewicz)
b. in 1956, ex-igumen of monastery Jabłeczna, founder of monastery Saki, one of the translator of the Ecumenical translation of the Bible.
He will be bishop of Siemiatycze, residing on the Holy Mount Grabarka that makes him vicar bishop of the Warsaw-Bielsk diocese.




Andrew (Borkowski)
b. in 1974, igumen of monastery Supraśl.
He will be bishop of Supraśl that makes him vicar bishop of the Białystok-Gdańsk diocese.




Paul(Tokajuk)
b. in 1978, ex-archideacon of the Polish Orthodox Church, secretary of the metropolitan of Warsaw and all Poland Sawa, master in karate tsunami (pictures here).
He will be bishop of Hajnówka residing in Warsaw that makes him vicar bishop of the Warsaw-Bielsk diocese.




Athanasios (Nos)
b. in 1968, igumen of Jabłeczna monastery.
He will be bishop of Łódź and Poznań that makes him ordinary of the Łódź-Poznań diocese.



Bishop Gregory (Charkiewicz) of Supraśl, vicar bishop of the Białystok-Gdańsk diocese, will become bishop of Bielsk Podlaski that makes him vicar bishop of the Warsaw-Bielsk diocese.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 08:22:51 AM »
Congratulations to all new Bishops. And thank you, Dominika, for this information.

As a rule, should every diocese in Poland have at least one vicar bishop?

Online Dominika

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2017, 08:28:10 AM »
Congratulations to all new Bishops. And thank you, Dominika, for this information.

:)

As a rule, should every diocese in Poland have at least one vicar bishop?

No. It's rather for safety reasons, i. e. to not have vacancies in the dioceses and to not loose the autocephaly.
The current situation wasn't good, because, as I wrote, in just 1 year 3 bishops died (plus bishop Miron, being just 52 years old, died in 2010 in the plane crash in Smoleńsk), while metropolitan Sava has serious problems with health plus he will be 80 years old the next year, and archbishop Abel of Lublin and Chełm has also serious problems with health. So, it was a danger that in short time we would be left with only 4 bishops, not counting the Brazilian ones. And as everybody knows, 3 bishops are required to maintain the autocephaly, as 3 bishops are neccesary to ordinate a new bishop.
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2017, 08:35:59 AM »
Hi Dominika!

Do you know much about the new bishops? Obviously, such a large number of new bishops for a relatively small synod has big implications. Are they similar or different in their outlooks, can you tell anything about the direction the Church is going based on the choices, etc?
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2017, 09:04:16 AM »
Hi Dominika!

Do you know much about the new bishops? Obviously, such a large number of new bishops for a relatively small synod has big implications. Are they similar or different in their outlooks, can you tell anything about the direction the Church is going based on the choices, etc?

Yeah, for sure it will have big implications. Maybe nor right now, but in some feauture...

Frankly speaking, I know all the 6 "old" bishops, and they know (well, maybe 2 of them have forgotten) me by name, since I've been meeting them via various occassions (being an intereptator of Seriban, studies, singing something in Arabic, my articles and translations for cerkiew.pl etc.), but I don't know much about the new ones.

Father Barsonophius - undoubtly well-educated man. He's one of the few from the Polish Church knowning something more about Oriental Orthodoxy. I've heard only once his sermosn on Zaccheus Sunday, and it was very good both in liturgical and theological aspects. I have no idea about his views on Church life, liturgical practices etc. The monastery that he found (Saki) is in my personal opinion currently the best male monastery in Poland. He was igumen of the monastery in years 2001-2009. The current igumen was proposed to the epiccopacy too, but he refused - probably he wants a good continuator. The monaster has now 9 monks, so mabye in a few years... Because I think the current igumen of the Saki monastery, fr. Timotheos that I know personally, would be the best candidate.

Father Andrew - he was studying in Greece, but I've heard he's quite pro Russian. Have seen him a few times on Church solemnities and that's all.

Father Paul - he has been over years (actually the whole his clerical life) the right hand of the metropolitan Sava. So, until the death of the metropolitan, he will probably do whatever m. Sava wants. I suppose he will replace archbishop George on the function of the Orthodox bishop chaplain of the Polish Army, since abp George was elected not so long ago to be new archbishop of Wrocław and Szczecin diocese (that's far from Warsaw, and the chaplain has to be mainly in Warsaw) and he's also the rector of the Orthodox section at the Christian Theological Academy in Warsaw. As father Paul is a sportsman, he is a natural candidate to become the military bishop.

Father Athanasios - he was studying in the st. Tichon Institure in South Canaan. He's rather pro-Polish (well, of them are Polish, I mean just some vievs on Church life, liturgical practices, liturgical and sermon language, some etiquette and so on). He got the most difficult diocese to rule: the largest in territory, the smallest in the numer of parishes. That's one of the reasons that bishop Gregory (Charkiewicz) didn't want to go there, despite the fact that until yesterday he was the unique vicar bishop, so he was a natural candidate for this position. Another reason is that he's very connected to Podlasie, he was studying in Russia, he's anti-ecumenical, he preferes some folclore, while the diocese of Łódź and Poznań has nothing to do with such things, and it gets some converts, plus being an absolute minority, its bishop has to deal with Roman Catholics.

So, I know very little about them. Undoubtly, they have to be quite similar in the views as metropolitan Sava, since obviously he wanted to guarantee before his death that the future epiccopacy of our Church will follow similar path. I think that until m. Sava is gone, they won't take their own initatives, bus as for future... Don't know.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 09:05:06 AM by Dominika »
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2017, 09:23:58 AM »
I feel every church could use more bishops. I'm glad to hear the news and I hope they work together well for the welfare of the Polish church.
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2017, 10:45:34 AM »
Hi Dominika!

Do you know much about the new bishops? Obviously, such a large number of new bishops for a relatively small synod has big implications. Are they similar or different in their outlooks, can you tell anything about the direction the Church is going based on the choices, etc?

Yeah, for sure it will have big implications. Maybe nor right now, but in some feauture...

...

Father Barsonophius - undoubtly well-educated man. He's one of the few from the Polish Church knowning something more about Oriental Orthodoxy.

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 06:39:30 PM »
If the Polish Orthodox Church did have a disaster and wound up with two or fewer bishops, surely a neighboring church would participate in an ordination, and thus the autocephaly would be retained?

Isn't it fairly common for for EO bishops to be ordained not just by members of their own jurisdiction but also by guests from other jurisdictions?
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2017, 12:32:00 AM »
The Church can use more clergy bearing the holy name of Barsanuphius.
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2017, 07:09:10 AM »
If the Polish Orthodox Church did have a disaster and wound up with two or fewer bishops, surely a neighboring church would participate in an ordination, and thus the autocephaly would be retained?

Isn't it fairly common for for EO bishops to be ordained not just by members of their own jurisdiction but also by guests from other jurisdictions?

Well, that's true that very, very often there are bishops-guest from other jurisdictions at chirotonias. However, if the Polish Church were left with less than 3 bishops, there would be the problem, because:
1. We had great problems to get autocephaly, so we got it from two jurisdictions (Constantinople and then Moscow) and the first head of the Polish Church was shot.

2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church, would willingly accept a power over 250 parishes for "some time until you will be mature to be autocephalus [again]".

3. The biggest problem: our neighbour jurisdiction is Moscow Patriachate; I still have doubts in pure intentions of our hierarhcs to become an old calendar Church 3 years ago, especially that in fact it tought almost only our capital - Warsaw, including the metropolitan cathedral (and, btw, my parish) and shorlty after it, after years of problem, the construction of first Orthodox church being a separate builduing after the second world war began.
Moreover, for soem years, especially last 2 ones, we have problems with Ukrainian immigration (officcial statistics say it's about 1 million people, in reality it can be much higher), Ukrainians feell also very freely at some Polish parishes - I know it's true for the metropolitan cathedral in Warsaw, for parish in Poznań... Sure, there are many Greek Catholics amogn them, but still... Russian Church could say in the case of such disaster that's:
a) their canoncial territory
b) they have their faitfhul on our terrains
I cain imagine also some actions of Kiev Patriarchate then... Still, we don't have any its parishes, but one rebellious monastery, being a Polish-Ukrainian mix in clergy, very sympathises with them.

Maybe there is too much of conspiracy theories from my side, but... It's based on some things.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 07:51:57 AM »
2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church, would willingly accept a power over 250 parishes for "some time until you will be mature to be autocephalus [again]".
I think the EP is not a problem here. In Albania, the reconstruction of autocephaly went rather well. As soon as they had 3 bishops, it was recognised again.

I can imagine also some actions of Kiev Patriarchate then... Still, we don't have any its parishes, but one rebellious monastery, being a Polish-Ukrainian mix in clergy, very sympathises with them.
Surely, if the POC comes under the MP, the KP will try to take over some parishes with many Ukrainians, and/or start their own parishes.

Interesting monastery, what's their name?

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2017, 08:27:19 AM »
2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church, would willingly accept a power over 250 parishes for "some time until you will be mature to be autocephalus [again]".
I think the EP is not a problem here. In Albania, the reconstruction of autocephaly went rather well. As soon as they had 3 bishops, it was recognised again.
That's true.


I can imagine also some actions of Kiev Patriarchate then... Still, we don't have any its parishes, but one rebellious monastery, being a Polish-Ukrainian mix in clergy, very sympathises with them.
Surely, if the POC comes under the MP, the KP will try to take over some parishes with many Ukrainians, and/or start their own parishes.

Interesting monastery, what's their name?

I wouldn't say it's interesting... Since 2015 this monastery is no in communion with anybody, during Liturgies it commemorates "the righteous patriarchs" (nobody knows idea, who are they). It's in Ujkowice, the patrons are saints Cyril and Methodius.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2017, 10:24:39 AM »
b. in 1956, ex-igumen of monastery Jabłeczna, founder of monastery Saki, one of the translator of the Ecumenical translation of the Bible.
What is that?

Btw, "ex-" in this sense is usually expressed as "former igumen" ("ex-" has a connotation of being removed from office, rather than just leaving it).

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« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 10:24:55 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2017, 10:26:51 AM »
If the Polish Orthodox Church did have a disaster and wound up with two or fewer bishops, surely a neighboring church would participate in an ordination, and thus the autocephaly would be retained?
It has happened to the Church of Cyprus, several times.
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2017, 10:31:20 AM »
b. in 1956, ex-igumen of monastery Jabłeczna, founder of monastery Saki, one of the translator of the Ecumenical translation of the Bible.
What is that?

There is a problem in Poland that there are two the most popular translations of Bible into Polish, but both made by Catholics, and one of them is very archaic. So, the Churches being minorities in this country, decided to make own translation. It costs a lot of effort to do a proper translation, so in one comission there were Orthodox, Old Catholics, various Protestants...

Btw, "ex-" in this sense is usually expressed as "former igumen" ("ex-" has a connotation of being removed from office, rather than just leaving it).

Many Years!

Oh, good to know.


If the Polish Orthodox Church did have a disaster and wound up with two or fewer bishops, surely a neighboring church would participate in an ordination, and thus the autocephaly would be retained?
It has happened to the Church of Cyprus, several times.

That's interesting. Do you have any links for articles about it?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2017, 10:31:42 AM »
2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church
No, that would be Moscow. Btw, do you know where the text of the Tomos from Moscow on autocephaly can be had?
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2017, 10:31:53 AM »
Quote
2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church, would willingly accept a power over 250 parishes for "some time until you will be mature to be autocephalus [again]".
LOL. It's so true.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 10:35:13 AM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2017, 10:34:49 AM »
Hi Dominika!

Do you know much about the new bishops? Obviously, such a large number of new bishops for a relatively small synod has big implications. Are they similar or different in their outlooks, can you tell anything about the direction the Church is going based on the choices, etc?

Yeah, for sure it will have big implications. Maybe nor right now, but in some feauture...

...

Father Barsonophius - undoubtly well-educated man. He's one of the few from the Polish Church knowning something more about Oriental Orthodoxy.

Somewhere on Athos, Antonis groans, and the skulls of the holy brethren with him!
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2017, 10:36:39 AM »
I wouldn't say it's interesting... Since 2015 this monastery is no in communion with anybody, during Liturgies it commemorates "the righteous patriarchs" (nobody knows idea, who are they). It's in Ujkowice, the patrons are saints Cyril and Methodius.

Ah, I am surprised now since some years ago (4 or 5 years maybe? Definitely before Maidan), I heard positively about this monastery from a priest of the UOC-MP, who had visited it. That priest is one of the few celebrating liturgy in the Ukrainian language in the MP though.

Also, Wikipedia seems to say the monastery is under a UOC-KP bishop now. Though I don't understand much Polish. Maybe you or some other Polish speaker can help me? The quote is
Quote
W maju 2016 świętu patronalnemu monasteru przewodniczył biskup lwowski i sokalski Dymitr z niekanonicznego Ukraińskiego Kościoła Prawosławnego Patriarchatu Kijowskiego
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaster_św._św._Cyryla_i_Metodego_w_Ujkowicach

PS: Sorry for the off-topic. Feel free to put this into its own thread...

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2017, 10:44:56 AM »
2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church, would willingly accept a power over 250 parishes for "some time until you will be mature to be autocephalus [again]".
I think the EP is not a problem here. In Albania, the reconstruction of autocephaly went rather well. As soon as they had 3 bishops, it was recognised again
That has more to do with Abp. Anastasios (like Abp. Demetrios in America, Many Years!), than with the plans of the Phanar.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2017, 10:53:02 AM »
b. in 1956, ex-igumen of monastery Jabłeczna, founder of monastery Saki, one of the translator of the Ecumenical translation of the Bible.
What is that?

There is a problem in Poland that there are two the most popular translations of Bible into Polish, but both made by Catholics, and one of them is very archaic. So, the Churches being minorities in this country, decided to make own translation. It costs a lot of effort to do a proper translation, so in one comission there were Orthodox, Old Catholics, various Protestants...
What is the title in Polish?

IIRC, the first attempt to translate the Bible into Polish was commissioned by an illiterate Ruthenian Orthodox noblewoman who became Queen of Poland (and rebaptized by the Vatican) from Kiev.
Btw, "ex-" in this sense is usually expressed as "former igumen" ("ex-" has a connotation of being removed from office, rather than just leaving it).

Many Years!

Oh, good to know.


If the Polish Orthodox Church did have a disaster and wound up with two or fewer bishops, surely a neighboring church would participate in an ordination, and thus the autocephaly would be retained?
It has happened to the Church of Cyprus, several times.

That's interesting. Do you have any links for articles about it?
Fortescue talks about the latest instance a century ago-it was when Meletios the many numbered first moved up in the hierarchy of prominence. Neale(?)'s history of the Church of Cyprus IIRC also records a number of instances. One occurred because IIRC the Ottoman governor beheaded all the bishops at one time. I know one instance Cyprus asked the EP to have Antioch consecrate a new hiearchy for Cyprus. That might have been when the Crusaders were expelled with their Latin bishops by the Ottomans.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2017, 11:13:56 AM »
2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church
No, that would be Moscow. Btw, do you know where the text of the Tomos from Moscow on autocephaly can be had?
No, it's Ecumenical Patriarchate. Well, in 18th century Moscow entered there, but over centuries we were under Constantinople. And that's Constantinople that gave as firstly the autocephaly.

Only in Polish, there are both tomoses: http://www.studiawarminskie.uwm.edu.pl/assets/Artykuly/sw46-153-172.pdf


I wouldn't say it's interesting... Since 2015 this monastery is no in communion with anybody, during Liturgies it commemorates "the righteous patriarchs" (nobody knows idea, who are they). It's in Ujkowice, the patrons are saints Cyril and Methodius.

Ah, I am surprised now since some years ago (4 or 5 years maybe? Definitely before Maidan), I heard positively about this monastery from a priest of the UOC-MP, who had visited it. That priest is one of the few celebrating liturgy in the Ukrainian language in the MP though.
it's a long time. But, anyway, evne then the monastery had suspiciosu practices; e.g it created "Family of Ujkowice" - peopel belonging to it were under their spiritual control and were obliged to give some money. They also created a blog "Wiadomości ze świata" (Newses from the world) - all concpiracy theories, very anti-semitic etc.

Also, Wikipedia seems to say the monastery is under a UOC-KP bishop now. Though I don't understand much Polish. Maybe you or some other Polish speaker can help me? The quote is
Quote
W maju 2016 świętu patronalnemu monasteru przewodniczył biskup lwowski i sokalski Dymitr z niekanonicznego Ukraińskiego Kościoła Prawosławnego Patriarchatu Kijowskiego
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaster_św._św._Cyryla_i_Metodego_w_Ujkowicach

PS: Sorry for the off-topic. Feel free to put this into its own thread...
No, it's not. One of my friends goes from time to time to this monastery and the info who they commemorate in the Liturgy is from him.
The quotations says: "In may 2016 the patronal feast of the monastery was presied by bishop of Lvov and Sokal Dymitr from non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Kiev Patriarchate". And that's true, but it hasn't changed their canonical status.

2. I suppose that the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being our Mother Church, would willingly accept a power over 250 parishes for "some time until you will be mature to be autocephalus [again]".
I think the EP is not a problem here. In Albania, the reconstruction of autocephaly went rather well. As soon as they had 3 bishops, it was recognised again
That has more to do with Abp. Anastasios (like Abp. Demetrios in America, Many Years!), than with the plans of the Phanar.

Yeah, indeed, I've heard a lot about abp. Anastasios; due to him the Albanian Orthodox Church has resurrected.

What is the title in Polish?

Biblia Ekumeniczna (Ecumenical Bible)
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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 04:05:18 PM »
Today there was chirotony of the first bishop elect, H.E. Athanasios (Nos)

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Re: Polish Orthodox Church gets four new bishops
« Reply #23 on: Today at 03:47:45 PM »
Today there was chirotony of the second bishop elect, H.E. Paul (Tokajuk). Like yesterday, it was also held in the metropolitan cathedral of st. Mary Magdalene in Warsaw.

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