Topic: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to declare liturgy changes ‘irreversible’

[Mor Ephrem]

I don't necessarily follow traditionalist websites; I follow the church. Brother Nathaniel doesn't speak for you, right? Same thing.

We didn't elect Brother Nathaniel to lead our Church...

[The young fogey]

Doesn't faze me; people have the right to be insipid up to a point. Interesting to hear Argentine Spanish; the accent and pacing are definitely influenced by Italian (the Pope's family name is Bergoglio; he was born to Italian immigrants in the biggest Italian community outside of Italy — sorry, New Jersey).

[xOrthodox4Christx]

I don't necessarily follow traditionalist websites; I follow the church. Brother Nathaniel doesn't speak for you, right? Same thing.

So, no matter how many contradictions and inconsistencies exist, it won't be a problem.

Good to know.

[The young fogey]

I don't necessarily follow traditionalist websites; I follow the church. Brother Nathaniel doesn't speak for you, right? Same thing.

So, no matter how many contradictions and inconsistencies exist, it won't be a problem.

Good to know.

Right. A lot of those sites don't speak for the church.

[LivenotoneviL]

For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass. Go on all thing in life change even liturgy they are not puting nude girl  dancing in a novus ordo mass.(it will be cool by the way ).
I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.

I should also point out that certain people such as myself concede that this happened in Renaissance iconography.

[LivenotoneviL]

I love accidentally posting things twice!

[LivenotoneviL]

"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios

Within the bounds I wrote earlier, I agree.

For anyone who has any knowledge and appreciation of historic RCC, what the RCC has become is heartbreaking.

The Catholic Church in itself hasn't gone bad after Vatican II (our doctrine) but in practice this is largely true. This concern from some Orthodox about the Catholic Church is nice, thanks, but contradictory. Why care about something you've turned your back on and opine has been apostate for centuries? (We don't think Orthodoxy is apostate or even heretical, only in schism from us, and as some Orthodox have written on this board, we don't consider the rite heretical so our caring about it and using it aren't contradictory.) As a Catholic friend told me 20 years ago, if you want to remain Orthodox you'll have to consider us apostates, forgetting about us. Orthodox apologists and ROCOR said pretty much the same. I couldn't.

Oh well. It's your church, but if you truly want reunion, you guys need to get your stuff together with your liturgy and not allow such selfish atrocities to be the norm.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.

Aren't we supposed to be "ecumenical?" (Not the religious indifferent  understanding mind you?)
And considering the role that the Roman church played in Western Civilization to an extent, and some good things (such as Aquinas's 5 Proofs and founding Oxford University), it's sad to see how apathetic the population of the Roman Catholic Church has become, when it was once a source of similar (although a bit heterodox) theology and stability in moral beliefs.

As Orthodox Patriarch Irinej of Serbia says,
"We care more about the Roman Catholic church. Truth is they introduced many elements into their faith since they broke away from the Orthodox Church. But we believe there is still something sacramental and divine in them. So we care the church keeps its dignity."

[The young fogey]

some good things (such as Aquinas's 5 Proofs and founding Oxford University)

Glad to know we're good for something after all. Seriously, your post reminds me of Newman decades after his conversion writing about the role of the Church of England in his society. Don't tear it down, he wrote; it's keeping England Christian. He and/or other Catholics then said frankly that they couldn't replace the schools, hospitals, and other charities the C of E had then.

"We care more about the Roman Catholic church. Truth is they introduced many elements into their faith since they broke away from the Orthodox Church. But we believe there is still something sacramental and divine in them."

Almost mirroring our view of his communion. OK. But there are Orthodox in good standing who believe we are sacramental frauds.

[LivenotoneviL]

Seriously, your post reminds me of Newman decades after his conversion writing about the role of the Church of England in his society. Don't tear it down, he wrote; it's keeping England Christian.

lol

Almost mirroring our view of his communion. OK. But there are Orthodox in good standing who believe we are sacramental frauds.

https://www.goarch.org/-/the-sacramental-life-of-the-orthodox-church?inheritRedirect=true
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/rcsacs.htm

[The young fogey]

There is still an Evangelical minority in England; churchgoing, very Protestant Anglicans, a drop in the bucket of a very irreligious country (lived there).

[Sharbel]

The Catholic Church in itself hasn't gone bad after Vatican II (our doctrine) but in practice this is largely true.

Indeed, the bad seeds of VII and the foul spirit invoked in its name are to be found in the period preceeding VII.  Otherwise, why would bishops who had known no other liturgy but the one of Trent gift the West with the abhorring Novus Ordo?

[The young fogey]

For most of the church's history we didn't write new services because we didn't know how. Since liturgical studies around the 1800s, now we do. Catholic bishops and priests in the '50s fell for the modern belief in "Progress!" Streamline the services like the new jet planes and the church will get even better! That and some heresy (Annibale Bugnini, for example) produced the Novus Ordo, preserved from error because the Holy Spirit leads the church (I have no problem with the original Latin or the English since 2011) but unfortunate.

[sedevacantist]

The Catholic Church in itself hasn't gone bad after Vatican II (our doctrine) but in practice this is largely true.

Indeed, the bad seeds of VII and the foul spirit invoked in its name are to be found in the period preceeding VII.  Otherwise, why would bishops who had known no other liturgy but the one of Trent gift the West with the abhorring Novus Ordo?

the bad seeds are the non catholic modernist priests that had infiltrated the Church decades before Vatican 2, read Pascendi Pius X...the novus ordo is a protestant service, fact is 6 protestant ministers assisted in it's creation..

[Mor Ephrem]

For most of the church's history we didn't write new services because we didn't know how. Since liturgical studies around the 1800s, now we do. Catholic bishops and priests in the '50s fell for the modern belief in "Progress!" Streamline the services like the new jet planes and the church will get even better! That and some heresy (Annibale Bugnini, for example) produced the Novus Ordo, preserved from error because the Holy Spirit leads the church (I have no problem with the original Latin or the English since 2011) but unfortunate.

The Holy Spirit + some heresy = An unfortunate but acceptable Mass

[The young fogey]

Already answered that: preserved from error because the Holy Spirit leads the church (I have no problem with the original Latin or the English since 2011). Just acknowledging that Bugnini's motive was likely heresy.

[scamandrius]

For most of the church's history we didn't write new services because we didn't know how.

No, they didn't write new services because they humbly accepted what was handed down to them instead of thinking, "Hey, we're smarter than those guys from x years ago so we can do what we want."

[The young fogey]

For most of the church's history we didn't write new services because we didn't know how.

No, they didn't write new services because they humbly accepted what was handed down to them instead of thinking, "Hey, we're smarter than those guys from x years ago so we can do what we want."

That was what made Vatican II a problem.

[MalpanaGiwargis]

Already answered that: preserved from error because the Holy Spirit leads the church (I have no problem with the original Latin or the English since 2011). Just acknowledging that Bugnini's motive was likely heresy.

But what about the 38 years between the promulgation of the original English Novus Ordo and 2011?

[Lepanto]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

[Vanhyo]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

[Lepanto]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

Well, this is just not true, but replying in more detail will not achieve anything.
I do not know you and I do not play the more polemical games anymore:
For many, it is a nice mental exercise on the internet, anonymous, without real people, without any real personal involvement.
Things start to look very different when you have those problems in your home.

[The young fogey]

Already answered that: preserved from error because the Holy Spirit leads the church (I have no problem with the original Latin or the English since 2011). Just acknowledging that Bugnini's motive was likely heresy.

But what about the 38 years between the promulgation of the original English Novus Ordo and 2011?

All we had to go on was the unchangeability of our teachings and the soundness of the Latin original of the Novus Ordo.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

I know that's what Orthodoxy teaches, as Fr. Andrew Phillips repeats. I reject it, so I'm not Orthodox.

[Sharbel]

The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.

Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.

Pope BXVI's legacy is being torn down at an increasing pace.  By now it should be clear that the Hermeneutics of Rupture has replaced the Hermeneutics of Continuity.  And its corollary is that many bishops around the world are undoing his Summorum Pontificum by forbidding the Vetus Ordo liturgy.

Then again, that's why legalism never fails to fall in its face.  At the end of the day, law is just ink and paper when consent is withdrawn.  Only tradition remains.

[youssef]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

They tell you that. houw can i contact them to know where they will be active.
I am sure they will not be active in place full of dead bones.

[Lepanto]

The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.

Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.

Pope BXVI's legacy is being torn down at an increasing pace.  By now it should be clear that the Hermeneutics of Rupture has replaced the Hermeneutics of Continuity.  And its corollary is that many bishops around the world are undoing his Summorum Pontificum by forbidding the Vetus Ordo liturgy.

Then again, that's why legalism never fails to fall in its face.  At the end of the day, law is just ink and paper when consent is withdrawn.  Only tradition remains.

"Forbidding" the Vetus Ordo liturgy is the very thing that is not admissible:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificum.html

Art. 7.  If a group of the lay faithful, as mentioned in Art. 5, §1, has not been granted its requests by the parish priest, it should inform the diocesan bishop.  The bishop is earnestly requested to satisfy their desire.  If he does not wish to provide for such celebration, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.

The two examples you posted are unfortunate, but I really think that it is an exaggeration to claim this means a general "undoing" of SP.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

I'm seriously surprised at some of the absolutely Orwellian apologetics emanating from some on this forum. It's not disconcerting, just really surprising.

[Sharbel]

The two examples you posted are unfortunate, but I really think that it is an exaggeration to claim this means a general "undoing" of SP.

They didn't dare it under Pope BXVI, but feel quite confident to undo Sumorum Pontificum in their local churches right in the first year of the reign of Pope FI.  Of course, what is any general undoing of anything but its undoing in many places?  It has to start somehow and we are seeing it right before our very eyes.  Or at least of those who still have eyes to see.

[Sharbel]

I'm seriously surprised at some of the absolutely Orwellian apologetics emanating from some on this forum. It's not disconcerting, just really surprising.

Yet, untenable.

[Lepanto]

The two examples you posted are unfortunate, but I really think that it is an exaggeration to claim this means a general "undoing" of SP.

They didn't dare it under Pope BXVI, but feel quite confident to undo Sumorum Pontificum in their local churches right in the first year of the reign of Pope FI.  Of course, what is any general undoing of anything but its undoing in many places?  It has to start somehow and we are seeing it right before our very eyes.  Or at least of those who still have eyes to see.

This is the trap of pessimism: Selective perception. You only keep track of the bad news and dismiss signs of hope, such as the Star parish
http://starparish.com/start-here/
or the overall growth of the FSSP:
https://www.fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm

You are right that a general global trend would just consist of many local events.
You are also right that unfortunately, there are still too many examples where the tradition is suppressed,
even by bishops. But if you disregard positive examples altogether, you get a biased picture just the same.

[juliogb]

There was a teacher here in Brazil, of italian origin, Professor Orlando Fedelli, a devout catholic and intelectual that wrote and made lots of lectures and interviews about the errors in the text of the Novus Ordo mass, the protestant and jewish influence over VII and lots of other matters, like the Neocatecumenal Way errors and the idolatric cult that exists or existed within the TFP and the Heralds of the Gospel.

[LivenotoneviL]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

Well, this is just not true, but replying in more detail will not achieve anything.
I do not know you and I do not play the more polemical games anymore.
For many, it is a nice mental exercise on the internet, anonymous, without real people, without any real personal involvement.
Things start to look very different when you have those problems in your home.

Mmm...that's some delicious Red Herring you got there, mind if I take a bite?

[Lepanto]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

Well, this is just not true, but replying in more detail will not achieve anything.
I do not know you and I do not play the more polemical games anymore.
For many, it is a nice mental exercise on the internet, anonymous, without real people, without any real personal involvement.
Things start to look very different when you have those problems in your home.

Mmm...that's some delicious Red Herring you got there, mind if I take a bite?

Hm... I do not know exactly what you mean, really.
But please help yourself!

[Fr. George]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

Well, this is just not true, but replying in more detail will not achieve anything.
I do not know you and I do not play the more polemical games anymore.
For many, it is a nice mental exercise on the internet, anonymous, without real people, without any real personal involvement.
Things start to look very different when you have those problems in your home.

Mmm...that's some delicious Red Herring you got there, mind if I take a bite?

Hm... I do not know exactly what you mean, really.
But please help yourself!

red herring
noun
noun: red herring; plural noun: red herrings

1. a dried smoked herring, which is turned red by the smoke.

2. something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.
"the book is fast-paced, exciting, and full of red herrings"

(Source: dictionary.com)

[Brigidsboy]

"Reversion to Type"

A perspective that might be unpopular with the reigning Pope:

https://ignatiushisconclave.org/2017/08/30/reversion-to-type/

[The young fogey]

There was a teacher here in Brazil, of italian origin, Professor Orlando Fedelli, a devout catholic and intelectual that wrote and made lots of lectures and interviews about the errors in the text of the Novus Ordo mass, the protestant and jewish influence over VII and lots of other matters, like the Neocatecumenal Way errors and the idolatric cult that exists or existed within the TFP and the Heralds of the Gospel.

My preferring and using the old forms doesn't mean I buy every accusation against the Novus Ordo. New services aren't necessarily a good idea but Paul VI's Latin and Benedict XVI's English are the Mass. I know little about the Neocatechumenate; I have no problem with low churchmanship and experimentation as long as you accept our doctrine, and don't tell me I can't be high-church, but it sounds like they go too far, even with their own rite (not approved by the church?). I'm fairly sure the church approves the group. I like a lot about TFP but they're probably too narrow for me; never heard of the Heralds of the Gospel

Brigidsboy: +1. It has a picture of my old stomping grounds, St. Clement's, long that rare, eccentric bird, serious would-be Catholics in the Episcopal Church. Now everybody there who meant that is in fact Catholic (again); they do High Masses around our archdiocese.

[Sharbel]

This is the trap of pessimism: Selective perception. You only keep track of the bad news and dismiss signs of hope, such as the Star parish
http://starparish.com/start-here/
or the overall growth of the FSSP:
https://www.fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm

Less than 500 members and flat number of seminarians...  Not unlike the Tridentine liturgies, whose attendance has remained flat for the last decade.


Considering such smallness of the numbers and anemic growth as signs of hope is the trap of delusion.

[Sharbel]

... I like a lot about TFP...

FWIW, the TFP was declared heretic by the Brazilian bishops in 1985 and forbade Catholics of joining or supporting them (cf.https://is.gd/5zsx6w).

[LivenotoneviL]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

Well, this is just not true, but replying in more detail will not achieve anything.
I do not know you and I do not play the more polemical games anymore.
For many, it is a nice mental exercise on the internet, anonymous, without real people, without any real personal involvement.
Things start to look very different when you have those problems in your home.

Mmm...that's some delicious Red Herring you got there, mind if I take a bite?

Hm... I do not know exactly what you mean, really.
But please help yourself!

You're trying to derail the debate about the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo and what is permitted in it by trying to argue about whether the internet validates or invalidates the content of the argument, or debating whether or not the argument itself is mean in its tone.

It's a fallacious debate tactic, and I'm just pointing it out.

[LivenotoneviL]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

Well, this is just not true, but replying in more detail will not achieve anything.
I do not know you and I do not play the more polemical games anymore.
For many, it is a nice mental exercise on the internet, anonymous, without real people, without any real personal involvement.
Things start to look very different when you have those problems in your home.

Mmm...that's some delicious Red Herring you got there, mind if I take a bite?

Hm... I do not know exactly what you mean, really.
But please help yourself!

red herring
noun
noun: red herring; plural noun: red herrings

1. a dried smoked herring, which is turned red by the smoke.

2. something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.
"the book is fast-paced, exciting, and full of red herrings"

(Source: dictionary.com)

Thanks, Father.

[Lepanto]

Again, what is the issue?
After all, since 2007, with SP we have even the written guarantee about which was always evident: The TLM was never "abrogated".
The last bishop of Rome developed the beautiful concept of the Hermeneutic of Continuity.
Unfortunately, there is some fear-mongering in certain trad circles that the current bishop of Rome intends to outlaw or consequently
marginalize the forma extraordinaria. Naturally, this fear is completely unfounded.
The communities of the Latin tradition remain an integral part of the Catholic church, the relatively high number of vocations is proof of that.
We must not play the bad NO vs. good TLM game, as it is only leading to ever more division - the NOM is not going away anytime soon.
We should rather for now just acknowledge the fact that there is almost no chance to see a NO mass really
celebrated according to the rubrics when visiting a random parish.
This is sad, but it is merely a matter of discipline, not so much of liturgy let alone dogma.
It is a moot point whether the NO itself is more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

The Lord, the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses, that is why they look like atheists entertaining parties.

Well, this is just not true, but replying in more detail will not achieve anything.
I do not know you and I do not play the more polemical games anymore.
For many, it is a nice mental exercise on the internet, anonymous, without real people, without any real personal involvement.
Things start to look very different when you have those problems in your home.

Mmm...that's some delicious Red Herring you got there, mind if I take a bite?

Hm... I do not know exactly what you mean, really.
But please help yourself!

You're trying to derail the debate about the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo and what is permitted in it by trying to argue about whether the internet validates or invalidates the content of the argument, or debating whether or not the argument itself is mean in its tone.

It's a fallacious debate tactic, and I'm just pointing it out.

This is a misunderstanding - that was not my intention.
I replied to Vanhyo who claimed that "the Holy Spirit is not active in your masses".
Naturally, this is a strong statement and not something Catholics like to hear obviously.
But this is an Orthodox board, you got all the property rights and Vanhyo is of course entitled to such an opinion,
so I chose not to engage further, but could not refrain from replying something. No Red Herring tactics.

[Lepanto]

This is the trap of pessimism: Selective perception. You only keep track of the bad news and dismiss signs of hope, such as the Star parish
http://starparish.com/start-here/
or the overall growth of the FSSP:
https://www.fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm

Less than 500 members and flat number of seminarians...  Not unlike the Tridentine liturgies, whose attendance has remained flat for the last decade.


Considering such smallness of the numbers and anemic growth as signs of hope is the trap of delusion.

33 A.D in Jerusalem: The church has probably less than 500 members and very flat number of seminarians - trap of delusion?
What I am trying to get across is that absolute numbers are not the only metric here.
Also seminarians mean potential new priests, a flat number would mean linear growth in the number of priests, which is more than acceptable.

[youssef]

At the end novus ordo is a problem for less then 1 percent of the catholics and more than 99 percent of orthodox.

It is not a question that we are more intelligent then those one who make mass before it is accumulation of knowledge. Now a 18 year old can understand all newton work that doesn't mean he is more inteligent

Also i think many catholics who has problem with novus ordo has problem with the western culture.

[LivenotoneviL]

At the end novus ordo is a problem for less then 1 percent of the catholics and more than 99 percent of orthodox.

It is not a question that we are more intelligent then those one who make mass before it is accumulation of knowledge. Now a 18 year old can understand all newton work that doesn't mean he is more inteligent

Also i think many catholics who has problem with novus ordo has problem with the western culture.

If you equivocate "Western culture" with "religious indifferentism and moral relativism," beliefs which you obviously hold from reading your other posts

For me now for exemple i don't consider one as a true christian today if he is against social right, gender right, homosexual right and the full equality between men and women in the church.

Yes, I have a problem with that. This is a morally wrong view of the world and disgusting heresy.

To say that homosexuality is a natural right and men and women, in the context of a Church community, are 100% equivalent (suggesting the advocation of female priesthood and the abolishment of the sanctity of motherhood) is contradictory to 2000 years worth of Christian Tradition. So much for "bearing your cross" and "defending the Faith," you hypocrite!

But the argument that it is mere cultural differences is an absolute load of......when you consider that the Roman Catholic Church was even stricter than the Orthodox Church when it came to liturgy pre-Vatican II. If you see it as "cultural development," then it is a bad and quite frankly offensive cultural development (I'm not gonna say the Aztecs, who had pagan human sacrifices, are immune from criticism).

I encourage you to read Seraphim Rose and some Mount Athos monks about contemporary Western culture.

[youssef]

At the end novus ordo is a problem for less then 1 percent of the catholics and more than 99 percent of orthodox.

It is not a question that we are more intelligent then those one who make mass before it is accumulation of knowledge. Now a 18 year old can understand all newton work that doesn't mean he is more inteligent

Also i think many catholics who has problem with novus ordo has problem with the western culture.

If you equivocate "Western culture" with "religious indifferentism and moral relativism," beliefs which you obviously hold from reading your other posts

For me now for exemple i don't consider one as a true christian today if he is against social right, gender right, homosexual right and the full equality between men and women in the church.

Yes, I have a problem with that. This is a morally wrong view of the world and disgusting heresy.

To say that homosexuality is a natural right and men and women, in the context of a Church community, are 100% equivalent (suggesting the advocation of female priesthood and the abolishment of the sanctity of motherhood) is contradictory to 2000 years worth of Christian Tradition. So much for "bearing your cross" and "defending the Faith," you hypocrite!

But the argument that it is mere cultural differences is an absolute load of......when you consider that the Roman Catholic Church was even stricter than the Orthodox Church when it came to liturgy pre-Vatican II. If you see it as "cultural development," then it is a bad and quite frankly offensive cultural development (I'm not gonna say the Aztecs, who had pagan human sacrifices, are immune from criticism).

I encourage you to read Seraphim Rose and some Mount Athos monks about contemporary Western culture.

Tradition are there they don't represent the truth or they represent the faith. You can have our own system of belief but it has nothing to do with how the society should work.

I had also say that i think the church has become better after vatican 2.

Always our relation with God was based on accumulation of knowledge from the begining from the old testament and it continue like this.

Western culture had win forget all the critics they are nonsense. They just make me laugh.

[juliogb]

My preferring and using the old forms doesn't mean I buy every accusation against the Novus Ordo. New services aren't necessarily a good idea but Paul VI's Latin and Benedict XVI's English are the Mass. I know little about the Neocatechumenate; I have no problem with low churchmanship and experimentation as long as you accept our doctrine, and don't tell me I can't be high-church, but it sounds like they go too far, even with their own rite (not approved by the church?). I'm fairly sure the church approves the group. I like a lot about TFP but they're probably too narrow for me; never heard of the Heralds of the Gospel

The Heralds of the Gospel are a sort of order that came with a dissidence in TFP, founded by Monsignor João Clá Scognamiglio, their headquarters are not far from my home, they have some sort of castle, have a military style discipline and dress in a medieval style, there are rumours that despite the traditionalist appearance, there are some weird cults to the TFP deceased leader Dr. Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira.