Author Topic: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to declare liturgy changes ‘irreversible’  (Read 5848 times)

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Offline Agabus

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Fogey — re: my comments about pathology in that other thread.

Should this be considered infallible under RC doctrine?

No.

Liturgy is discipline and culture, not doctrine.

My guess is this statement, rather than the coverage of it, is just standard rhetoric since Vatican II supporting the new Mass. That Mass isn't going away any time soon.

While I don't like the new Mass, it is the Mass. Since Benedict XVI's reform in English, I'm fine with it though I use and prefer the old form. In good conscience I can go to Mass anywhere in the United States and thanks to the new text, people will learn the faith from it. I see the new Mass a few times a year: holy days of obligation, Sundays when there is a car show or flea market so I can't make it to my usual traditional Mass, or traveling/vacation.

So no, I'm not foaming at the mouth or considering leaving the church in order to claim that Byzantine Christianity is the center of the universe and the Roman Mass has been graceless all these centuries. I like Byzantine Christianity (the Orthodox small-t tradition) very much; it is my part-time home (monthly Liturgy, and an icon corner and your prayers at home) and some Westerners are called to it full-time. But no.

What's going on in the American Catholic Church: the old liberals who wanted to get rid of the old-fashioned stuff are dying out. The few young people who stay want real religion. Most of my semi-traditionalist parish (my Sunday-morning Tridentine Mass) is couples in their 30s and their many children because the parish is a magnet for them.
by attending the new mass you are insulting Christ since it is a protestant mass
Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570: “Now, therefore, in
order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to
them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches,
it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to
sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal
published by Us... Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to
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On April 3, 1969, Paul VI replaced the Traditional Latin Mass in the Vatican II
churches with his own creation, the New Mass or Novus Ordo.

When the New Mass came out in 1969, Cardinals Ottaviani, Bacci, and some other
theologians wrote to Paul VI about it. Keep in mind that what they said about the
New Mass concerns the Latin Version, the so-called “most pure” version of the New
Mass. Their study is popularly known as The Ottaviani Intervention. It states:
“ The Novus Ordo [the New Order of Mass] represents, both as a whole and in
its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was
formulated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent.” 4
They could clearly see that the Latin version of the New Mass was a striking
departure from the teaching of the Council of Trent. Of the twelve offertory prayers in
the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the New Mass. The deleted offertory
prayers are the same ones that the Protestant heretics Martin Luther and Thomas
Cranmer eliminated. The New Mass was promulgated by Paul VI with the help of six
Protestant Ministers.

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Offline The young fogey

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The Novus Ordo is a cut-and-paste. That doesn't mean it isn't a Mass.

sedevacantist doesn't speak for the church so he doesn't speak for me.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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The Novus Ordo is a cut-and-paste. That doesn't mean it isn't a Mass.

sedevacantist doesn't speak for the church so he doesn't speak for me.

It's just hard to believe that an infallible Church can make such a fallible liturgy.
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Offline The young fogey

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The church has always had several scripts and settings for the liturgy, which almost always have evolved gradually. The Novus Ordo's a new composition that uses bits of the old Roman Rite. It's all good as long as each script tells the truth and nobody tries to take the old forms away from me.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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The church has always had several scripts and settings for the liturgy, which almost always have evolved gradually. The Novus Ordo's a new composition that uses bits of the old Roman Rite. It's all good as long as each script tells the truth and nobody tries to take the old forms away from me.

I wonder how you can nod your head at some of the outrageous blasphemies against God which have been permissible in the Novus Ordo!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr-Q6oYNQ_k

Is this such reverence that "tells the truth?"

It has become a liturgy of self-idolatry and showing off how "holy" you are by dancing around the altar.

Isn't the whole point of liturgy to emulate Heaven? How do these outrageous forms of materialistic self-worship equivocate to that and tell the truth?

And I can't believe that you are perfectly fine with removing what has been used for 500 years, which developed previously from that.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 09:48:37 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline The young fogey

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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.

Were the Iconoclast martyrs "intolerant conservatives" when they were killed for refusing to remove the iconography from the Liturgy?

And by that logic, you can use the label of "intolerant" towards those who are intolerant of such practices as contraception, abortion, LGBTQ, showing no respect to refugees, etc.

Oh well. It's your church, but if you truly want reunion, you guys need to get your stuff together with your liturgy and not allow such selfish atrocities to be the norm.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 09:58:52 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline The young fogey

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I've already answered this and you're preaching to the proverbial choir. Almost every Sunday I go to the Tridentine Mass or to the same rite most of this board goes to.
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Offline Alpha60

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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.

Were the Iconoclast martyrs "intolerant conservatives" when they were killed for refusing to remove the iconography from the Liturgy?

And by that logic, you can use the label of "intolerant" towards those who are intolerant of such practices as contraception, abortion, LGBTQ, showing no respect to refugees, etc.

Oh well. It's your church, but if you truly want reunion, you guys need to get your stuff together with your liturgy and not allow such selfish atrocities to be the norm.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.

+1, except re: instruments some Orthodox traditionally use the organ, for example, the Ionian Greeks and the Armenians. The idea that instruments are completely forbidden as a form of accompaniememt is mainly Russian / Slavonic, and I agree in the case of the Slavonic liturgies, i.e. The OCA.  The Russians more than compensate with campanology.

Btw Western Campanology with its single-toned bells, even with an English style Full Peal, which is hours of endless variations accomplished by a guild of bell ringers, pales in comparison to Russian campanology, with beautiful bells tuned to multiple resonant tones, hundreds of which can be controlled by a single monk using an ingenious control system of thin metal wires; the bells remain stationary and only the clappers are moved.
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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.

Hahahahahahahahaha! These are the "heresies" you are worried about? I can't take this seriously.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.

Were the Iconoclast martyrs "intolerant conservatives" when they were killed for refusing to remove the iconography from the Liturgy?

And by that logic, you can use the label of "intolerant" towards those who are intolerant of such practices as contraception, abortion, LGBTQ, showing no respect to refugees, etc.

Oh well. It's your church, but if you truly want reunion, you guys need to get your stuff together with your liturgy and not allow such selfish atrocities to be the norm.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.

+1, except re: instruments some Orthodox traditionally use the organ, for example, the Ionian Greeks and the Armenians. The idea that instruments are completely forbidden as a form of accompaniememt is mainly Russian / Slavonic, and I agree in the case of the Slavonic liturgies, i.e. The OCA.  The Russians more than compensate with campanology.

Btw Western Campanology with its single-toned bells, even with an English style Full Peal, which is hours of endless variations accomplished by a guild of bell ringers, pales in comparison to Russian campanology, with beautiful bells tuned to multiple resonant tones, hundreds of which can be controlled by a single monk using an ingenious control system of thin metal wires; the bells remain stationary and only the clappers are moved.

What I meant by instruments was "rock bands," not necessarily the pipe organ. Some Western Rite Orthodox Churches use organs, and I don't have a problem with it.
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Offline The young fogey

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Quote
This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, [rock-band] instruments, and communion in the hand.

Not heretical but insipid; matters of culture and discipline. I say people can have most of these things if they accept our doctrine and don't try to take away traditional high-church stuff such as the Orthodox services.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.

Hahahahahahahahaha! These are the "heresies" you are worried about? I can't take this seriously.

I wouldn't necessarily they are "heresies" so to speak, they are just drastic departures from Tradition - especially when viewed through the eyes of the symbolism they previously represented - are symbolically disrespectfully.

For example, if everyone can just touch the Eucharist all willy-nilly and hand it out to people, not only is it extremely disrespectful because Christ's Living Body is supposed to be there, but it reduces the idea of the Bloodless Sacrifice to that of mere symbolism and that of a community meal.

I know this for a fact because I was in a Roman Catholic community - and a lot of faithful Roman Catholic people I talked to didn't believe in the literal presence as a doctrine, and it was barely taught to us in our catechesis courses in school. Even one of my relatives who was born in 1969 was shocked to find out recently that the Roman church held such a belief in the real presence.

It even makes no logical sense that the priest would need blessed water to wash his hands before handling the Eucharist, yet he can give it out to like 5 people all willy nilly with no problem whatsoever.

I seriously wonder why this was even a development - despite the whole controversy of having to give both Blood and Body in Orthodox thought, I liked the whole idea of a communion rail - it was even more efficient imo than giving it to several people and having to awkwardly form 4 lines.

Maybe if they had some respect with Eucharistic ministers - like requiring extensive training, requiring to wear robes, requiring to have their hands blessed, and to handle the Eucharist with a napkin - I would be talking with a different tune. But as of now, it is symbolically disrespectful - even good ole Thomas Aquinas agrees with this.

Not to mention that this example in particularly was a post-Vatican II development that didn't come from Vatican II itself.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:58:37 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline The young fogey

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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.

Hahahahahahahahaha! These are the "heresies" you are worried about? I can't take this seriously.

I wouldn't necessarily they are "heresies" so to speak, they are just drastic departures from Tradition - especially when viewed through the eyes of the symbolism they previously represented - are symbolically disrespectfully.

For example, if everyone can just touch the Eucharist all willy-nilly and hand it out to people, not only is it extremely disrespectful because Christ's Living Body is supposed to be there, but it reduces the idea of the Bloodless Sacrifice to that of mere symbolism and that of a community meal.

I know this for a fact because I was in a Roman Catholic community - and a lot of people I talked to didn't believe in the literal presence, and it was barely taught to us in our catechesis courses in school. Even one of my relatives who was born in 1969 was shocked to find out recently that the Roman church held such a belief in the real presence.

It even makes no logical sense that the priest would need blessed water to wash his hands before handling the Eucharist, yet he can give it out to like 5 people all willy nilly with no problem whatsoever.

I seriously wonder why this was even a development - despite the whole controversy of having to give both Blood and Body in Orthodox thought, I liked the whole idea of a communion rail - it was even more efficient imo than giving it to several people and having to awkwardly form 4 lines.

Maybe if they had some respect with Eucharistic ministers - like requiring extensive training, requiring to wear robes, requiring to have their hands blessed, and to handle the Eucharist with a napkin - I would be talking with a different tune. But as of now, it is symbolically disrespectful - even good ole Thomas Aquinas agrees with this.

I largely agree. When the English translation of the new Mass was the bad ICEL paraphrase, it was possible to go to it for years and not know our teachings, which happened a lot.

Eucharistic ministers make sense based on their official name, which starts with the word "extraordinary." They weren't supposed to be used at every Sunday Mass and certainly not to try to promote women's ordination. Most of what you see is an abuse.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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If it's against our doctrine and breaks the rules, I oppose it, and much of the abuse does come from heretics. Beyond that, I won't take the bait; I won't be the intolerant type that liberals accuse conservatives of being.

This includes "Eucharistic ministers," versus populum, instruments, and communion in the hand.

Hahahahahahahahaha! These are the "heresies" you are worried about? I can't take this seriously.

I wouldn't necessarily they are "heresies" so to speak, they are just drastic departures from Tradition - especially when viewed through the eyes of the symbolism they previously represented - are symbolically disrespectfully.

For example, if everyone can just touch the Eucharist all willy-nilly and hand it out to people, not only is it extremely disrespectful because Christ's Living Body is supposed to be there, but it reduces the idea of the Bloodless Sacrifice to that of mere symbolism and that of a community meal.

I know this for a fact because I was in a Roman Catholic community - and a lot of people I talked to didn't believe in the literal presence, and it was barely taught to us in our catechesis courses in school. Even one of my relatives who was born in 1969 was shocked to find out recently that the Roman church held such a belief in the real presence.

It even makes no logical sense that the priest would need blessed water to wash his hands before handling the Eucharist, yet he can give it out to like 5 people all willy nilly with no problem whatsoever.

I seriously wonder why this was even a development - despite the whole controversy of having to give both Blood and Body in Orthodox thought, I liked the whole idea of a communion rail - it was even more efficient imo than giving it to several people and having to awkwardly form 4 lines.

Maybe if they had some respect with Eucharistic ministers - like requiring extensive training, requiring to wear robes, requiring to have their hands blessed, and to handle the Eucharist with a napkin - I would be talking with a different tune. But as of now, it is symbolically disrespectful - even good ole Thomas Aquinas agrees with this.

I largely agree. When the English translation of the new Mass was the bad ICEL paraphrase, it was possible to go to it for years and not know our teachings, which happened a lot.

Eucharistic ministers make sense based on their official name, which starts with the word "extraordinary." They weren't supposed to be used at every Sunday Mass and certainly not to try to promote women's ordination. Most of what you see is an abuse.

My point is that when even the Pope is being abusive with Eucharistic ministers, there is a problem that needs to be fixed somehow for the purposes of "ecumenism," if ever such a reunion can take place.

Once again, its their church, so I can't really tell them what they are and aren't allowed to do, but that's my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:01:59 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline youssef

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For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass. Go on all thing in life change even liturgy they are not puting nude girl  dancing in a novus ordo mass.(it will be cool by the way ;D).
I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:02:38 AM by youssef »

Offline The young fogey

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I will never lie to you. Under Paul VI and St. John Paul II (I have no devotion to him; I just acknowledge the church's decision), the American Catholic Church stank. Benedict XVI improved the new Mass in English so much. We're actually better off under Francis than we were under Paul or John Paul because Francis is a Jesuit so he doesn't care about liturgy and he doesn't care about English because he doesn't speak it; he only really knows Spanish and Italian.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass.

I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.

"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:14:22 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Yeah.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:10:42 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline youssef

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For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass. Go on all thing in life change even liturgy they are not puting nude girl  dancing in a novus ordo mass.(it will be cool by the way ;D).
I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.

"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios

Jesus has said For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. So one these people are gathering in the mass with full conscious of what they are doing Jesus will be with them however they are doing a traditional mass or a novus ordo mass. Get out about this idea of tradition and that modernity is a heresy and the real nonsense that the east has better cultural vlaue then the west.

Offline The young fogey

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For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass. Go on all thing in life change even liturgy they are not puting nude girl  dancing in a novus ordo mass.(it will be cool by the way ;D).
I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.

"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios

Jesus has said For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. So one these people are gathering in the mass with full conscious of what they are doing Jesus will be with them however they are doing a traditional mass or a novus ordo mass. Get out about this idea of tradition and that modernity is a heresy and the real nonsense that the east has better cultural vlaue then the west.

I agree with about half of this.

Quote
Jesus has said For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. So one these people are gathering in the mass with full conscious of what they are doing Jesus will be with them however they are doing a traditional mass or a novus ordo mass.

If they accept our teachings and follow the rules.

Quote
Get out about this idea of tradition

No. When someone tells me I can't be high-church because the Holy Spirit doesn't want it, I rightly get my back up.

Quote
and that modernity is a heresy

It's not necessarily heresy but it's problematic.

Quote
the real nonsense that the east has better cultural vlaue then the west

+1.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass. Go on all thing in life change even liturgy they are not puting nude girl  dancing in a novus ordo mass.(it will be cool by the way ;D).
I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.

"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios

Jesus has said For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. So one these people are gathering in the mass with full conscious of what they are doing Jesus will be with them however they are doing a traditional mass or a novus ordo mass. Get out about this idea of tradition and that modernity is a heresy and the real nonsense that the east has better cultural vlaue then the west.

And my argument to that is that a significant portion of Novus Ordo masses aren't gathered in Christ's name, but themselves - "Look at how much I am dancing, and how its for God! Aren't I such a holy person; I hope everyone can see me doing this! I am totally worthy enough to give out the Eucharist to other people! I want to look so attractive for mass, so I don't need to wear pants to church! Who cares that Christ is supposed to literally come into the mass - I'm just gonna dance around the altar and put a show on for people!"

It's self-worship.

Not to mention that to truly be in Christ's name is to follow proper beliefs.

Also, when did this conversation become about cultural values?

And look - I have no problem with people dancing around for God's glory, singing happily how awesome God is, and if you like that style of talking to God, go ahead - but I think there is a time and place for everything, and I don't think its appropriate when you are supposed to go receive Christ Himself.

I don't want to come across as someone who is so radical that I want to discourage people from loving God - but I just think there is, truly, a time and place for everything.
If you like contemporary Christian music, you can listen to it all you want - just don't take your MP3 player out in Church.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:27:54 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Offline youssef

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For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass. Go on all thing in life change even liturgy they are not puting nude girl  dancing in a novus ordo mass.(it will be cool by the way ;D).
I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.

"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios

Jesus has said For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. So one these people are gathering in the mass with full conscious of what they are doing Jesus will be with them however they are doing a traditional mass or a novus ordo mass. Get out about this idea of tradition and that modernity is a heresy and the real nonsense that the east has better cultural vlaue then the west.

And my argument to that is that a significant portion of Novus Ordo masses aren't gathered in Christ's name, but themselves - "Look at how much I am dancing, and how its for God! Aren't I such a holy person; I hope everyone can see me doing this! I am totally worthy enough to give out the Eucharist to other people! I want to look so attractive for mass, so I don't need to wear pants to church!"

It's self-worship.

Not to mention that to truly be in Christ's name is to follow proper beliefs.

Also, when did this conversation become about cultural values?

Realy, you are condemming people heart, you can condem in the same mentality people who go to traditional mass.
The question of proper belief for me now i don't know what church has the true belief but i know that catholic have some basic in all what they say, from the filioque to immaculate birth and other stuff.

I think that really the conversation is related to cultural issues in some way.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Realy, you are condemming people heart, you can condem in the same mentality people who go to traditional mass.
The question of proper belief for me now i don't know what church has the true belief but i know that catholic have some basic in all what they say, from the filioque to immaculate birth and other stuff.

I think that really the conversation is related to cultural issues in some way.

I edited my post, so I'll quote it again:

And look - I have no problem with people dancing around for God's glory, singing happily how awesome God is, and if you like that style of talking to God, go ahead - but I think there is a time and place for everything, and I don't think its appropriate when you are supposed to go receive Christ Himself.

I don't want to come across as someone who is so radical that I want to discourage people from loving God - but I just think there is, truly, a time and place for everything.
If you like contemporary Christian music, you can listen to it all you want - just don't take your MP3 player out in Church.

Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credenci"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:33:49 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Offline The young fogey

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You're both right. LivenotoneviL points out some problems, but youseff wrote what I feel; I don't want to become the judgemental jerk that liberals say conservatives are.

Quote
Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

So do we. The Novus Ordo by the book has the truth just like my services.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:37:08 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline youssef

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Realy, you are condemming people heart, you can condem in the same mentality people who go to traditional mass.
The question of proper belief for me now i don't know what church has the true belief but i know that catholic have some basic in all what they say, from the filioque to immaculate birth and other stuff.

I think that really the conversation is related to cultural issues in some way.

I edited my post, so I'll quote it again:

And look - I have no problem with people dancing around for God's glory, singing happily how awesome God is, and if you like that style of talking to God, go ahead - but I think there is a time and place for everything, and I don't think its appropriate when you are supposed to go receive Christ Himself.

I don't want to come across as someone who is so radical that I want to discourage people from loving God - but I just think there is, truly, a time and place for everything.
If you like contemporary Christian music, you can listen to it all you want - just don't take your MP3 player out in Church.

Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credenci"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

I had never participate to a novus ordo mass while people dancing,, the church i know here near my house in the morning sunday mass they do a mass without music and in the night they do a mass for the youth with the use of musical instrument and the people i know here but i have never participate with them they dance in the end after they take communion and the priest say the final words.  But also i cannot see any problem with what your are talking about.

Offline Cyrillic

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Quote
ROME - Addressing a group of liturgical experts on Thursday, Pope Francis said that after the teaching of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) and a long path of experience, “We can affirm with certainty and magisterial authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible.”

The declaration came in a speech on Thursday to Italy’s “Center of Liturgical Action,” which sponsors an annual National Liturgical Week.

By “liturgical reform,” Pope Francis meant the changes in Catholic rituals and modes of worship which followed from Vatican II, the most immediately visible elements of which included Mass facing the congregation, the use of vernacular languages, and a stronger emphasis on the “full, conscious and active” participation of the people.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/08/24/pope-invokes-magisterial-authority-declare-liturgy-changes-irreversible/

The last gasp of the old liberals, who are horrified by the sight of their grandchildren slowly undoing their accomplishments.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 11:51:10 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2017, 01:40:17 PM »
I mean of course that as long as you keep our teachings, there are many cultural expressions of them, which is partly why there are several rites.
Multiple rites arise organically over centuries when the same faith is planted in different cultures. The Novus Ordo is nothing like that.
+1.  It's just a cut and paste job.
+1.  From translations by Google.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline Sharbel

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My point is that when even the Pope is being abusive with Eucharistic ministers, there is a problem that needs to be fixed somehow for the purposes of "ecumenism," if ever such a reunion can take place.
As far as I know, the Eucharistic ministers at public liturgies in the Vatican are actually ordained men, either deacons or priests themselves, often recruited from among the attendants.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2017, 02:56:59 PM »
I mean of course that as long as you keep our teachings, there are many cultural expressions of them, which is partly why there are several rites.
Multiple rites arise organically over centuries when the same faith is planted in different cultures. The Novus Ordo is nothing like that.
+1.  It's just a cut and paste job.
+1.  From translations by Google.

If only.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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My point is that when even the Pope is being abusive with Eucharistic ministers, there is a problem that needs to be fixed somehow for the purposes of "ecumenism," if ever such a reunion can take place.
As far as I know, the Eucharistic ministers at public liturgies in the Vatican are actually ordained men, either deacons or priests themselves, often recruited from among the attendants.

Nope.
My grandfather, who is neither, is one.

If you mean "in the Vatican" literally, I don't know, but Pope Francis has definitely been in liturgies  where young men and women hand out the Eucharist like cracker snacks.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 03:46:47 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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Offline The young fogey

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Quote
ROME - Addressing a group of liturgical experts on Thursday, Pope Francis said that after the teaching of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) and a long path of experience, “We can affirm with certainty and magisterial authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible.”

The declaration came in a speech on Thursday to Italy’s “Center of Liturgical Action,” which sponsors an annual National Liturgical Week.

By “liturgical reform,” Pope Francis meant the changes in Catholic rituals and modes of worship which followed from Vatican II, the most immediately visible elements of which included Mass facing the congregation, the use of vernacular languages, and a stronger emphasis on the “full, conscious and active” participation of the people.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/08/24/pope-invokes-magisterial-authority-declare-liturgy-changes-irreversible/

The last gasp of the old liberals, who are horrified by the sight of their grandchildren slowly undoing their accomplishments.

Yes.
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Offline Helladius

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For me really i don't understand people who defend tradition and thinking they are defending the real faith. I have no problem in a novus ordo mass, i prefer to go to a novus ordo mass then to go to a traditional mass.

I don't like the maronite mass but for some different purpose.

"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios


Beautiful!
'Be extremely careful not to offend anyone in word or deed, for it is a grave sin. When someone is offended, God, who loves the man, is also offended, for there can be no offending man without offending God.'
St Tikhon of Zadonsk

'Where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also' Matt 6:21

Offline Helladius

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Realy, you are condemming people heart, you can condem in the same mentality people who go to traditional mass.
The question of proper belief for me now i don't know what church has the true belief but i know that catholic have some basic in all what they say, from the filioque to immaculate birth and other stuff.

I think that really the conversation is related to cultural issues in some way.

I edited my post, so I'll quote it again:

And look - I have no problem with people dancing around for God's glory, singing happily how awesome God is, and if you like that style of talking to God, go ahead - but I think there is a time and place for everything, and I don't think its appropriate when you are supposed to go receive Christ Himself.

I don't want to come across as someone who is so radical that I want to discourage people from loving God - but I just think there is, truly, a time and place for everything.
If you like contemporary Christian music, you can listen to it all you want - just don't take your MP3 player out in Church.

Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credenci"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

I had never participate to a novus ordo mass while people dancing,, the church i know here near my house in the morning sunday mass they do a mass without music and in the night they do a mass for the youth with the use of musical instrument and the people i know here but i have never participate with them they dance in the end after they take communion and the priest say the final words.  But also i cannot see any problem with what your are talking about.

 :o  :'( For anyone who has any knowledge and appreciation of historic RCC, what the RCC has become is heartbreaking.
'Be extremely careful not to offend anyone in word or deed, for it is a grave sin. When someone is offended, God, who loves the man, is also offended, for there can be no offending man without offending God.'
St Tikhon of Zadonsk

'Where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also' Matt 6:21

Offline The young fogey

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Quote
"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios

Within the bounds I wrote earlier, I agree.

Quote
For anyone who has any knowledge and appreciation of historic RCC, what the RCC has become is heartbreaking.

The Catholic Church in itself hasn't gone bad after Vatican II (our doctrine) but in practice this is largely true. This concern from some Orthodox about the Catholic Church is nice, thanks, but contradictory. Why care about something you've turned your back on and opine has been apostate for centuries? (We don't think Orthodoxy is apostate or even heretical, only in schism from us, and as some Orthodox have written on this board, we don't consider the rite heretical so our caring about it and using it aren't contradictory.) As a Catholic friend told me 20 years ago, if you want to remain Orthodox you'll have to consider us apostates, forgetting about us. Orthodox apologists and ROCOR said pretty much the same. I couldn't.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 08:23:40 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline youssef

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Realy, you are condemming people heart, you can condem in the same mentality people who go to traditional mass.
The question of proper belief for me now i don't know what church has the true belief but i know that catholic have some basic in all what they say, from the filioque to immaculate birth and other stuff.

I think that really the conversation is related to cultural issues in some way.

I edited my post, so I'll quote it again:

And look - I have no problem with people dancing around for God's glory, singing happily how awesome God is, and if you like that style of talking to God, go ahead - but I think there is a time and place for everything, and I don't think its appropriate when you are supposed to go receive Christ Himself.

I don't want to come across as someone who is so radical that I want to discourage people from loving God - but I just think there is, truly, a time and place for everything.
If you like contemporary Christian music, you can listen to it all you want - just don't take your MP3 player out in Church.

Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credenci"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

I had never participate to a novus ordo mass while people dancing,, the church i know here near my house in the morning sunday mass they do a mass without music and in the night they do a mass for the youth with the use of musical instrument and the people i know here but i have never participate with them they dance in the end after they take communion and the priest say the final words.  But also i cannot see any problem with what your are talking about.

 :o  :'( For anyone who has any knowledge and appreciation of historic RCC, what the RCC has become is heartbreaking.

For me the church is becoming better.
The essential question is how as christian should behave towards modernism, sure the position of the catholic church is better then the orthodox church. 

Offline scamandrius

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I will never lie to you. Under Paul VI and St. John Paul II (I have no devotion to him; I just acknowledge the church's decision), the American Catholic Church stank. Benedict XVI improved the new Mass in English so much. We're actually better off under Francis than we were under Paul or John Paul because Francis is a Jesuit so he doesn't care about liturgy and he doesn't care about English because he doesn't speak it; he only really knows Spanish and Italian.

1)He cares enough to tell those who worship according to the tridentine Rite are rigid or have rigidity and have no place in the Catholic Church.

2)  His Italian isn't even that good.  this pope is the WORST pope in recent memory when it comes to languages. Say what you want about JP II and BXVI but both of them were fluently conversant in many languages. 

Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Helladius

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Quote
"When there is a respect for small things, there will be an even greater respect towards the bigger things. When there is no respect for small things, then neither will there be for the bigger ones. This is how the Fathers maintained Tradition."
-Saint Paisios

Within the bounds I wrote earlier, I agree.

Quote
For anyone who has any knowledge and appreciation of historic RCC, what the RCC has become is heartbreaking.

The Catholic Church in itself hasn't gone bad after Vatican II (our doctrine) but in practice this is largely true. This concern from some Orthodox about the Catholic Church is nice, thanks, but contradictory. Why care about something you've turned your back on and opine has been apostate for centuries? (We don't think Orthodoxy is apostate or even heretical, only in schism from us, and as some Orthodox have written on this board, we don't consider the rite heretical so our caring about it and using it aren't contradictory.) As a Catholic friend told me 20 years ago, if you want to remain Orthodox you'll have to consider us apostates, forgetting about us. Orthodox apologists and ROCOR said pretty much the same. I couldn't.

On the matter of whether much Catholic doctrine has good bad post Vatican II, I think we will have to agree to disagree. And, concerning Catholics en masse not seeing the Orthodox as apostates and heretics, the definitive statement you give is certainly a very modern position, and I doubt it is universally true even now: I have seen traditionalist websites call Orthodox those things, though I agree most modern Catholics (being more liberal than their predecessors) tend to see Orthodox as pretty much "one of us" - but since a considerable number of them likewise see Protestants that way, I'm not sure I feel the full force of that compliment! In past centuries, many/most Catholics did see the Orthodox as apostates, even heretics. I have certainly read early-modern Catholic works that state quite definitive that the Orthodox are heretics/believe heresies, for example John Gerard's account of the Gunpowder Plot goes off at a tangent at one point to list the heretics/heresies the RCC has faced through the centuries, and the Orthodox are listed among them due to our rejection of the filioque (which was disappointing to see). Though, yes, some others "merely" see us as schismatics, such as Gerard's near contemporary, Thomas More. But anyway... as to the rest - why do I care about what is happening to the Roman Catholic Church, and many other Christian confessions?

In some ways, it's as simple as - how could I not? There was so much that was good in historic Roman Catholicism, and to a lesser extent even in many historic Protestant groups. Goodness is goodness and worthy of respect, wherever it is to be found. There are many Catholic figures from past centuries whom I very much admire: Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas More, John Fisher, many of the English missionary priests and recusants of the late sixteenth and early seventh century like Henry Garnett, to name just a few. And likewise Protestants like C.S. Lewis and Eric Liddell. Why would I not be sad when I see what their Churches have become? Churches that had produced such great Christians in whom an Orthodox can find so much to admire. And historic RC worship was very beautiful, and the RCC produced much wonderful music, art, literature. To see all that, in general, degenerate and disintegrate, apart from pockets of traditionalism/conservatism that too often seem fossilised and cold rather than vibrant and full of charity (with exceptions, of course, thank God)... Why would I not be sad to see that? Are you not sad to see the race to the bottom Anglicanism and Episocopalianism, for example, have largely become, even though you are not an Anglican nor Episcopalian?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 10:30:02 AM by Helladius »
'Be extremely careful not to offend anyone in word or deed, for it is a grave sin. When someone is offended, God, who loves the man, is also offended, for there can be no offending man without offending God.'
St Tikhon of Zadonsk

'Where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also' Matt 6:21

Offline Helladius

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I'm really sorry - I didn't mean to double post!!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 10:30:43 AM by Helladius »
'Be extremely careful not to offend anyone in word or deed, for it is a grave sin. When someone is offended, God, who loves the man, is also offended, for there can be no offending man without offending God.'
St Tikhon of Zadonsk

'Where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also' Matt 6:21

Offline scamandrius

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You're both right. LivenotoneviL points out some problems, but youseff wrote what I feel; I don't want to become the judgemental jerk that liberals say conservatives are.

Quote
Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

So do we. The Novus Ordo by the book has the truth just like my services.

Nothing you can do will ever make them feel differently.  Standing up for the church's tradition and regarding innovations as dangerous and even heretical is not judgmentalism; it is, indeed, more loving than those who want to change the church's liturgy of prayer for more self-indulgent and self-pleasing and self-justifying rituals that put themselves on display.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline youssef

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You're both right. LivenotoneviL points out some problems, but youseff wrote what I feel; I don't want to become the judgemental jerk that liberals say conservatives are.

Quote
Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

So do we. The Novus Ordo by the book has the truth just like my services.

Nothing you can do will ever make them feel differently.  Standing up for the church's tradition and regarding innovations as dangerous and even heretical is not judgmentalism; it is, indeed, more loving than those who want to change the church's liturgy of prayer for more self-indulgent and self-pleasing and self-justifying rituals that put themselves on display.

Also you are condemming people heart.

Offline Gorazd

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As a Catholic friend told me 20 years ago, if you want to remain Orthodox you'll have to consider us apostates, forgetting about us.

We do not consider Roman Catholics to be apostates, but heretics. St. Mark of Ephesus made this quite clear.
Also, we do not forget about heretics. We do not pray with them, but we pray for them.

Offline scamandrius

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You're both right. LivenotoneviL points out some problems, but youseff wrote what I feel; I don't want to become the judgemental jerk that liberals say conservatives are.

Quote
Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

So do we. The Novus Ordo by the book has the truth just like my services.

Nothing you can do will ever make them feel differently.  Standing up for the church's tradition and regarding innovations as dangerous and even heretical is not judgmentalism; it is, indeed, more loving than those who want to change the church's liturgy of prayer for more self-indulgent and self-pleasing and self-justifying rituals that put themselves on display.

Also you are condemming people heart.

When people are doing things in the church for the love of their own self rather than love for God, yes, I am.  What are you going to do about it?  Just because something is in someone's heart does not give it validity or sanction.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline youssef

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You're both right. LivenotoneviL points out some problems, but youseff wrote what I feel; I don't want to become the judgemental jerk that liberals say conservatives are.

Quote
Orthodox take literally "Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi"
"The rule of prayer is the rule of what is believed."

So do we. The Novus Ordo by the book has the truth just like my services.

Nothing you can do will ever make them feel differently.  Standing up for the church's tradition and regarding innovations as dangerous and even heretical is not judgmentalism; it is, indeed, more loving than those who want to change the church's liturgy of prayer for more self-indulgent and self-pleasing and self-justifying rituals that put themselves on display.

Also you are condemming people heart.

When people are doing things in the church for the love of their own self rather than love for God, yes, I am.  What are you going to do about it?  Just because something is in someone's heart does not give it validity or sanction.

What they are doing  ;D . people are gathering and praying in the name of Jesus. We can say the same about people going to your traditional mass.

Offline The young fogey

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I don't necessarily follow traditionalist websites; I follow the church. Brother Nathaniel doesn't speak for you, right? Same thing.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 01:42:03 PM by The young fogey »
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

Russian icons and Byzantine prayers at home; Ukrainian Catholic parish once a month. Traditional Latin Mass most other Sundays.

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