Author Topic: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to declare liturgy changes ‘irreversible’  (Read 5136 times)

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Offline juliogb

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The headquarters of the Heralds of the Gospel, in Mairiporã, São Paulo, Brazil, they make some military style parades in that courtyard.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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At the end novus ordo is a problem for less then 1 percent of the catholics and more than 99 percent of orthodox.

It is not a question that we are more intelligent then those one who make mass before it is accumulation of knowledge. Now a 18 year old can understand all newton work that doesn't mean he is more inteligent

Also i think many catholics who has problem with novus ordo has problem with the western culture.

If you equivocate "Western culture" with "religious indifferentism and moral relativism," beliefs which you obviously hold from reading your other posts

Quote
For me now for exemple i don't consider one as a true christian today if he is against social right, gender right, homosexual right and the full equality between men and women in the church.

Yes, I have a problem with that. This is a morally wrong view of the world and disgusting heresy.

To say that homosexuality is a natural right and men and women, in the context of a Church community, are 100% equivalent (suggesting the advocation of female priesthood and the abolishment of the sanctity of motherhood) is contradictory to 2000 years worth of Christian Tradition. So much for "bearing your cross" and "defending the Faith," you hypocrite!

But the argument that it is mere cultural differences is an absolute load of......when you consider that the Roman Catholic Church was even stricter than the Orthodox Church when it came to liturgy pre-Vatican II. If you see it as "cultural development," then it is a bad and quite frankly offensive cultural development (I'm not gonna say the Aztecs, who had pagan human sacrifices, are immune from criticism).

I encourage you to read Seraphim Rose and some Mount Athos monks about contemporary Western culture.

Tradition are there they don't represent the truth or they represent the faith. You can have our own system of belief but it has nothing to do with how the society should work.



You're in heresy, from both an Orthodox and Roman Catholic perspective. I don't say that to judge you, I'm just pointing out your blatant and contradictory errors.

From a Roman Catholic perspective, I recommend you read Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors (ideas condemned as heretical).

The following ideas are heresy according to one of your Popes:

"There exists no Supreme, all-wise, all-provident Divine Being, distinct from the universe, and God is identical with the nature of things, and is, therefore, subject to changes. In effect, God is produced in man and in the world, and all things are God and have the very substance of God, and God is one and the same thing with the world, and, therefore, spirit with matter, necessity with liberty, good with evil, justice with injustice."

"Human reason, without any reference whatsoever to God, is the sole arbiter of truth and falsehood, and of good and evil; it is law to itself, and suffices, by its natural force, to secure the welfare of men and of nations."

"All the truths of religion proceed from the innate strength of human reason; hence reason is the ultimate standard by which man can and ought to arrive at the knowledge of all truths of every kind."

"Divine revelation is imperfect, and therefore subject to a continual and indefinite progress, corresponding with the advancement of human reason. "

"The prophecies and miracles set forth and recorded in the Sacred Scriptures are the fiction of poets, and the mysteries of the Christian faith the result of philosophical investigations. In the books of the Old and the New Testament there are contained mythical inventions, and Jesus Christ is Himself a myth."

"All the dogmas of the Christian religion are indiscriminately the object of natural science or philosophy, and human reason, enlightened solely in an historical way, is able, by its own natural strength and principles, to attain to the true science of even the most abstruse dogmas; provided only that such dogmas be proposed to reason itself as its object."

"The Church not only ought never to pass judgment on philosophy, but ought to tolerate the errors of philosophy, leaving it to correct itself."

"Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."

"Moral laws do not stand in need of the divine sanction, and it is not at all necessary that human laws should be made conformable to the laws of nature and receive their power of binding from God."

"The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization."

"National churches, withdrawn from the authority of the Roman pontiff and altogether separated, can be established. "

"The State, as being the origin and source of all rights, is endowed with a certain right not circumscribed by any limits."

"The teaching of the Catholic Church is hostile to the well- being and interests of society."

"The civil government, even when in the hands of an infidel sovereign, has a right to an indirect negative power over religious affairs. It therefore possesses not only the right called that of “exsequatur,” but also that of appeal, called “appellatio ab abusu.""

"In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails."

"The civil authority may interfere in matters relating to religion, morality and spiritual government: hence, it can pass judgment on the instructions issued for the guidance of consciences, conformably with their mission, by the pastors of the Church. Further, it has the right to make enactments regarding the administration of the divine sacraments, and the dispositions necessary for receiving them."

" The best theory of civil society requires that popular schools open to children of every class of the people, and, generally, all public institutes intended for instruction in letters and philosophical sciences and for carrying on the education of youth, should be freed from all ecclesiastical authority, control and interference, and should be fully subjected to the civil and political power at the pleasure of the rulers, and according to the standard of the prevalent opinions of the age."

"The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church."


If you hold any of these beliefs, you are in a state of mortal sin according to the Roman Catholic Church.

Also, I find your post disgusting to say that Tradition doesn't matter. Why should we believe in God at all then? Why trust the Bible at all? The Church? Why believe Christ rose from the dead? All of this is Tradition, right? So why believe it? Is it something God permits arbitrarily?

I also recommend reading the "Heresy of Modernism," condemned by Pope Pius X (an article which I tend to mostly agree with; I don't believe in scholastic philosophy as a solution, but rather a cause)
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis.html
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 03:12:47 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Also, I find your post disgusting to say that Tradition doesn't matter. Why should we believe in God at all then? Why trust the Bible at all? The Church? Why believe Christ rose from the dead? All of this is Tradition, right? So why believe it? Is it something God permits arbitrarily?


That is to say, does God just allow us to pick and choose what we believe in from theological systems? If we can just accept that Tradition can simply be disregarded on a whim based on one's own feelings and opinions, why should we believe you need to believe in God to enter Heaven?

On what criteria can we determine what is Truth, and not be in a state like Pontius Pilate? Is it based on our feelings, our ideas, Sola Scriptura?

No, it is the Church.

For those who war against Christ:

"He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth."
(Matthew 12:30)

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.

And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof."

(Matthew 7:21-27)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 03:21:24 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline youssef

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First i only represent myself and now i am more closer to roman catholics then orthodox, you did go and search some of my idea.
But from the first when we start our relation of God it was base on accumulation of knowledge, in the old testament people has some differen way to praise God, but this was change, why don't you defend what the people was doing in old testament. So go and destroy all icon and statue.
How we should treat the church father text. In every time we should read them in the context and why they was writing, and build all thing in a way more similar to our culture. I think that it is the way that the catholics church see them today. Defending tradition and that we should keep them it will become like white washing tomb.
The bible is more important then all the church fathef saying, i am not defending sola scriptura here, and Jesus told us to be like children. That idea is so much important for me and how i see thing.
Also you can read love in paul epistle sure this love will accept any form of worship.
We always should had to ask heretical question to progress.
It is an heretics that makes the fire, not the one who will burn on it.

Maybe i should go and read some critics to the age of enlightment and to the scholasticism and laugh a little.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 03:53:21 PM by youssef »

Offline Jackson02

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If your "vicar of Christ" says that protestant worship is ok, time to reconsider your jurisdiction... or get a new pope.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 04:11:26 PM by Jackson02 »
IC XC
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Offline youssef

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If your "vicar of Christ" says that protestant worship is ok, time to reconsider your jurisdiction... or get a new pope.

Who am i to say if it is ok or not, go and preach like them it will be better.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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First i only represent myself and now i am more closer to roman catholics then orthodox, you did go and search some of my idea.
But from the first when we start our relation of God it was base on accumulation of knowledge, in the old testament people has some differen way to praise God, but this was change, why don't you defend what the people was doing in old testament. So go and destroy all icon and statue.
How we should treat the church father text. In every time we should read them in the context and why they was writing, and build all thing in a way more similar to our culture. I think that it is the way that the catholics church see them today. Defending tradition and that we should keep them it will become like white washing tomb.
The bible is more important then all the church fathef saying, i am not defending sola scriptura here, and Jesus told us to be like children. That idea is so much important for me and how i see thing.
Also you can read love in paul epistle sure this love will accept any form of worship.
We always should had to ask heretical question to progress.
It is an heretics that makes the fire, not the one who will burn on it.

Maybe i should go and read some critics to the age of enlightment and to the scholasticism and laugh a little.

If you are fine contradicting what both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic church believe about Tradition and the denial of moral relativism, that is your belief and your soul, unfortunately. I went through a phase of nihilistic morality when I was in high school, and I thank God I escaped it.

Even though you haven't answered my questions posited to you, such as why it is necessary to believe in God or go to Church or receive the Body and Blood of Christ if everything can be changed based on what individuals feel is morally acceptable, I'll posit some other questions to you:

Considering that you critique people who believe in the importance of Tradition using the flawed Pharisee argument, what will you say during the Great Judgment when you will see the martyrs who died for believing in Christ, from Pagan Rome to ISIS? What about those who died defending the icons in Church against the popularity of iconoclasm at that time? (the martyrs of Byzantine iconoclasm)? What will you say to Saint Athanasius, who was persecuted for fighting against Arianism? Or Saint Flavian, who was murdered for accepting Dyophytism? Or Saint Cyprian and Saint Stephen, who debated fiercely about the necessity of rebaptism? Are all of these great and holy saints "white-washed tombs" who died in vain as hypocrites? Your accusing these great and honorable people for dying for even the littlest detail about the Faith as Pharisee-hypocrites, while you yourself are clean of sin, not caring about what you believe in?

And considering we live in an age where immorality is completely acceptable, and to quote Saint Gregory the Great, the Antichrist and his priests are coming, as the end is ever close - how can you call defenders of moral Truth hypocrites?

And you are defending Sola Scriptura, because the Church Fathers and Tradition help us understand what we have to believe in the Bible (e.g., Saint Augustine's comments on Matthew 16:18) - and you believe that the Bible is completely subjective to each individual person against the Authority of the Church, especially in terms of morals.

How can you say the Bible is subject to change, and on whose authority? (contradicting even what your Roman Catholic popes have said?)

As for the change of the obedience towards the works of the law, this is something the Church debated rather fiercely during its early existence - but the Church doesn't establish a New Covenant every time a Patriarch decides to be liberal. It established One New Covenant, which will last forever till the Consummation of the Age and the Last Judgment. Saint John Chrysostom said the following quote: "Is it Tradition? Ask no more."
That is, if it is Tradition, do it - if not, discard it.
https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine-scripture/sources-of-christian-doctrine/tradition
https://oca.org/questions/otherconfessions/orthodox-worship-vs.-contemporary-worship
https://www.goarch.org/-/the-dogmatic-tradition-of-the-orthodox-church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church#Holy_tradition_and_the_patristic_consensus

Let me show you a more specific quote from Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, about lukewarmness:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou were cold, or hot.
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth."
(Revelation 3:15-16).

And the Saint Paul I read is much different, especially when he says that pagan idolatry is the same as demonic worship - even if it is out of "love."

"What then? Do I say, that what is offered in sacrifice to idols, is any thing? Or, that the idol is any thing? But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils. You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify. Let no man seek his own, but that which is another's. Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, eat; asking no question for conscience' sake."

1 Corinthians 10:19-25
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 08:15:43 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline LivenotoneviL

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I should also point out Saint Paul on Tradition as well:

1 Corinthians 5:9-10, 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 08:23:42 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline youssef

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You are make me saying thing that i didn't say. I will reply when i wake up.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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You are make me saying thing that i didn't say. I will reply when i wake up.

I'm sorry for my ramblings, I just get carried away with it :/
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 12:07:48 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline Sharbel

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Considering such smallness of the numbers and anemic growth as signs of hope is the trap of delusion.
What I am trying to get across is that absolute numbers are not the only metric here.

In a Church of over 1 billion adherents, the Tridentine liturgy and communities have made no dent at all and have no prospects of even keeping the numbers relative to the overall population, as one grows linearly and the other, exponentially.  All that the Catholic Church has had, has and will have for the foreseeable future is the dreadful Novus Ordo liturgy.  And, since lex orandi lex credenti, it's a foreseeably bleak future.
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Offline Sharbel

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The Heralds of the Gospel are a sort of order that came with a dissidence in TFP, founded by Monsignor João Clá Scognamiglio, their headquarters are not far from my home, they have some sort of castle, have a military style discipline and dress in a medieval style, there are rumours that despite the traditionalist appearance, there are some weird cults to the TFP deceased leader Dr. Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira.
The vicar general of the Heralds of the Gospel was interviewed on EWTN when the friars associated with the network decided to transfer their professed brothers to the Heralds of the Gospel (curiously, EWTN seems to have distanced itself from them lately).  In it, their head spoke lavishly about the importance of the writings of Plinio Correa de Oliveira in their formation.  I couldn't help thinking that the Heralds of the Gospel look like the TFP that managed to get the blessing from Rome, by Pope St. JPII no less, to spread its errors.
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Offline youssef

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You had say,
Considering that you critique people who believe in the importance of Tradition using the flawed Pharisee argument, what will you say during the Great Judgment when you will see the martyrs who died for believing in Christ, from Pagan Rome to ISIS? What about those who died defending the icons in Church against the popularity of iconoclasm at that time? (the martyrs of Byzantine iconoclasm)? What will you say to Saint Athanasius, who was persecuted for fighting against Arianism? Or Saint Flavian, who was murdered for accepting Dyophytism? Or Saint Cyprian and Saint Stephen, who debated fiercely about the necessity of rebaptism? Are all of these great and holy saints "white-washed tombs" who died in vain as hypocrites? Your accusing these great and honorable people for dying for even the littlest detail about the Faith as Pharisee-hypocrites, while you yourself are clean of sin, not caring about what you believe in?

There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:03:32 AM by youssef »

Offline youssef

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In every system of belief you have fixed idea that cannot be changed by time but you can add to them by time, and you have what us as human can freely changed it without opposing the fixing idea. Liturgy ia one of he thing that we can change, role of women for me it can change... Did you get my point now.

Where did i defend sola scriptura but i think we all here believe that what Jesus said is more important from what any of the church father sayings.

So stop judging people who are going to novus ordo or any other form and concentrate on your salvation.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:26:39 AM by youssef »

Offline Lepanto

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Considering such smallness of the numbers and anemic growth as signs of hope is the trap of delusion.
What I am trying to get across is that absolute numbers are not the only metric here.

In a Church of over 1 billion adherents, the Tridentine liturgy and communities have made no dent at all and have no prospects of even keeping the numbers relative to the overall population, as one grows linearly and the other, exponentially.  All that the Catholic Church has had, has and will have for the foreseeable future is the dreadful Novus Ordo liturgy.  And, since lex orandi lex credenti, it's a foreseeably bleak future.
Again, it is not about absolute numbers or growth rates or percentages.
I am more than willing to concede that the Church is currently facing some serious problems related to liturgical abuse (among others).
Of course, the tenet lex orandi lex credendi remains true as ever.
However what consequences am I to draw?
Jump ship and leave the true Church just because the future is "foreseeably bleak"?
People have been predicting a "bleak" (or worse) future for the Church for 2000 years, this is not exactly a new idea.
So far, we could cope - HE does not leave his Church to perish.


« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:57:03 AM by Lepanto »
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline youssef

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Considering such smallness of the numbers and anemic growth as signs of hope is the trap of delusion.
What I am trying to get across is that absolute numbers are not the only metric here.

In a Church of over 1 billion adherents, the Tridentine liturgy and communities have made no dent at all and have no prospects of even keeping the numbers relative to the overall population, as one grows linearly and the other, exponentially.  All that the Catholic Church has had, has and will have for the foreseeable future is the dreadful Novus Ordo liturgy.  And, since lex orandi lex credenti, it's a foreseeably bleak future.
Again, it is not about absolute numbers or growth rates or percentages.
I am more than willing to concede that the Church is currently facing some serious problems related to liturgical abuse (among others).
Of course, the tenet lex orandi lex credendi remains true as ever.
However what consequences am I to draw?
Jump ship and leave the true Church just because the future is "foreseeably bleak"?
People have been predicting a "bleak" (or worse) future for the Church for 2000 years, this is not exactly a new idea.
So far, we could cope - HE does not leave his Church to perish.

I had see that in the last 2 years more people are going to church then before here in France. I am now entering to many church found them full in sunday mass.

Offline Alpo

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I wonder if this is the only instance where Pope Francis has explicitly mentioned magisterial authority?  I haven't read of any other but then again I'm not too knowledgeable of things Catholic.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline LivenotoneviL

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In every system of belief you have fixed idea that cannot be changed by time but you can add to them by time, and you have what us as human can freely changed it without opposing the fixing idea. Liturgy ia one of he thing that we can change, role of women for me it can change... Did you get my point now.

Where did i defend sola scriptura but i think we all here believe that what Jesus said is more important from what any of the church father sayings.

So stop judging people who are going to novus ordo or any other form and concentrate on your salvation.

You stated
"Tradition are there they don't represent the truth or they represent the faith. You can have our own system of belief but it has nothing to do with how the society should work. "

Maybe I misunderstood you or you said something that you didn't mean to say, maybe due to a language barrier, but to say Tradition doesn't represent the faith and to say that society should be completely severed from Christian morality are two concepts that I honestly think aren't compatible with Christianity.

The Bible itself is Tradition.

And the whole idea of "changing things over time" I don't think is applicable to what you have placed under your umbrella of "Tradition." You cannot equivocate a hymn or two to homosexuality as a concept in terms of what is able to be changed, nor can the same be said about several elements about Liturgy.

To separate the Liturgy from the Faith is a foolish idea, and to say it is something that should have no standards whatsoever is inherently wrong.

Although I'm not fond for using such tactics, let me use an extreme to demonstrate a point. Let's say that someone decided to perform a Novus Ordo mass, but they decided to wear Satanic robes, destroy images of the saints, and to use a piece of bread which has a Pentagram in it, and, as you put it, decided to have a naked woman on top of the altar. Is this acceptable? Isn't liturgy simply disciplinary, not linked to the faith, and can be changed at any time whatsoever? Following your logic, how is this morally unacceptable?

The Novus Ordo has allowed so much flexibility that disrespectful act have been permitted and promulgated. Up until the 60s for example, NOBODY was allowed to touch the eucharist except the priest in the Roman church, and every time he touched it he had to wash his hands with a form of holy water because - in line with Orthodox Tradition - it would be seen as disrespectful, due to the belief in the literal presence. One simply has to read Thomas Aquinas to figure this out. All of sudden, one council changed it instantaneously, and anybody can touch the eucharist as much as they want, and the liturgy logically makes no sense (why does the priest need to wash his hands if ANYBODY can tough it as much as they want)?

The whole idea of dressing up in a costume to church would bring about scandal in your church - One of my first times going to an Orthodox Church for example, still used to the standards of the Novus Ordo, I decided to wear shorts to Church, and people still are traumatized in my Church by it, and they constantly bring it up to me. Just the other day I was talking with a friend about short sleeved shirts in Church, and a guy I know came up to me and said "well, it is better to come to Church wearing a short sleeve shirt than the shorts you used to wear." Now imagine how they would react if I came in wearing Native American garments - they would forbid me from coming to Church. The Roman church was similar in their belief on the importance of standards in the liturgy, but not anymore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpJzE-7GBjU

The fact that this was even an idea, and it is an idea which has occurred more than once around the world is disgusting to me. People aren't scandalized in church at all by this idolatry (a clear moral action which is banned by both the New Testament and the Old Testament, see my Saint Paul quote).

And it isn't my church, but considering that the word "ecumenism" has been shoved down my throat unceasingly by your church, and you guys are constantly trying to conflate the Orthodox Church and the Roman church together as the same church with the same beliefs, if you want ANY prospect of reunion, there should be some standards of respect for liturgy, otherwise we will take these sacrileges as offensive.

As for the common "Do not judge" argument, I recommend you read John Chrysostom when asked about what Christ meant by this:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200123.htm

And I am not at all judging you, dude. I myself probably committed much worse sins than you have in the past.

P.S. You haven't at all answered ANY of the questions I directly asked you. Admittedly they were caught in walls of text, but you still haven't answered them.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 09:24:12 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline Lepanto

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In every system of belief you have fixed idea that cannot be changed by time but you can add to them by time, and you have what us as human can freely changed it without opposing the fixing idea. Liturgy ia one of he thing that we can change, role of women for me it can change... Did you get my point now.

Where did i defend sola scriptura but i think we all here believe that what Jesus said is more important from what any of the church father sayings.

So stop judging people who are going to novus ordo or any other form and concentrate on your salvation.

You stated
"Tradition are there they don't represent the truth or they represent the faith. You can have our own system of belief but it has nothing to do with how the society should work. "

Maybe I misunderstood you or you said something that you didn't mean to say, maybe due to a language barrier, but to say Tradition doesn't represent the faith and to say that society should be completely severed from Christian morality are two concepts that I honestly think aren't compatible with Christianity.

The Bible itself is Tradition.

And the whole idea of "changing things over time" I don't think is applicable to what you have placed under your umbrella of "Tradition." You cannot equivocate a hymn or two to homosexuality as a concept in terms of what is able to be changed, nor can the same be said about several elements about Liturgy.

To separate the Liturgy from the Faith is a foolish idea, and to say it is something that should have no standards whatsoever is inherently wrong.

Although I'm not fond for using such tactics, let me use an extreme to demonstrate a point. Let's say that someone decided to perform a Novus Ordo mass, but they decided to wear Satanic robes, destroy images of the saints, and to use a piece of bread which has a Pentagram in it, and, as you put it, decided to have a naked woman on top of the altar. Is this acceptable? Isn't liturgy simply disciplinary, not linked to the faith, and can be changed at any time whatsoever? Following your logic, how is this morally unacceptable?

The Novus Ordo has allowed so much flexibility that disrespectful act have been permitted and promulgated. Up until the 60s for example, NOBODY was allowed to touch the eucharist except the priest in the Roman church, and every time he touched it he had to wash his hands with a form of holy water because - in line with Orthodox Tradition - it would be seen as disrespectful, due to the belief in the literal presence. One simply has to read Thomas Aquinas to figure this out. All of sudden, one council changed it instantaneously, and anybody can touch the eucharist as much as they want, and the liturgy logically makes no sense (why does the priest need to wash his hands if ANYBODY can tough it as much as they want)?

The whole idea of dressing up in a costume to church would bring about scandal in your church - One of my first times going to an Orthodox Church for example, still used to the standards of the Novus Ordo, I decided to wear shorts to Church, and people still are traumatized in my Church by it, and they constantly bring it up to me. Just the other day I was talking with a friend about short sleeved shirts in Church, and a guy I know came up to me and said "well, it is better to come to Church wearing a short sleeve shirt than the shorts you used to wear." Now imagine how they would react if I came in wearing Native American garments - they would forbid me from coming to Church. The Roman church was similar in their belief on the importance of standards in the liturgy, but not anymore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpJzE-7GBjU

The fact that this was even an idea, and it is an idea which has occurred more than once around the world is disgusting to me. People aren't scandalized in church at all by this idolatry (a clear moral action which is banned by both the New Testament and the Old Testament, see my Saint Paul quote).

And it isn't my church, but considering that the word "ecumenism" has been shoved down my throat unceasingly by your church, and you guys are constantly trying to conflate the Orthodox Church and the Roman church together as the same church with the same beliefs, if you want ANY prospect of reunion, there should be some standards of respect for liturgy, otherwise we will take these sacrileges as offensive.

As for the common "Do not judge" argument, I recommend you read John Chrysostom when asked about what Christ meant by this:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200123.htm

And I am not at all judging you, dude. I myself probably committed much worse sins than you have in the past.

P.S. You haven't at all answered ANY of the questions I directly asked you. Admittedly they were caught in walls of text, but you still haven't answered them.
+1
Very well said.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial
« Reply #154 on: September 07, 2017, 09:35:53 AM »
Quote
My preferring and using the old forms doesn't mean I buy every accusation against the Novus Ordo. New services aren't necessarily a good idea but Paul VI's Latin and Benedict XVI's English are the Mass. I know little about the Neocatechumenate; I have no problem with low churchmanship and experimentation as long as you accept our doctrine, and don't tell me I can't be high-church, but it sounds like they go too far, even with their own rite (not approved by the church?). I'm fairly sure the church approves the group. I like a lot about TFP but they're probably too narrow for me; never heard of the Heralds of the Gospel

The Heralds of the Gospel are a sort of order that came with a dissidence in TFP, founded by Monsignor João Clá Scognamiglio, their headquarters are not far from my home, they have some sort of castle, have a military style discipline and dress in a medieval style, there are rumours that despite the traditionalist appearance, there are some weird cults to the TFP deceased leader Dr. Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira.



That's really creepy. But pretty much what you'd expect from an organization calling itself "Tradition, Family, Property."
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Offline youssef

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What are your question that i didn't replied.

You had ask me what i should say to the martyr i answer in the same way what you will say to the 30000 martyr killing by your tradition. For an exemple.

But you can put your auestion again.

Stop talking about homosexuality and other stuff it is not our subject concentrate on the novus ordo. I know that maybe if you have the power you will go and kill them.

What chrysostom say about no judge it is a bit contradictory. Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.


Offline LivenotoneviL

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What are your question that i didn't replied.

You had ask me what i should say to the martyr i answer in the same way what you will say to the 30000 martyr killing by your tradition. For an exemple.

But you can put your auestion again.

Stop talking about homosexuality and other stuff it is not our subject concentrate on the novus ordo. I know that maybe if you have the power you will go and kill them.

What chrysostom say about no judge it is a bit contradictory. Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.

"Also, I find your post disgusting to say that Tradition doesn't matter. Why should we believe in God at all then? Why trust the Bible at all? The Church? Why believe Christ rose from the dead? All of this is Tradition, right? So why believe it? Is it something God permits arbitrarily?....Does God just allow us to pick and choose what we believe in from theological systems? If we can just accept that Tradition can simply be disregarded on a whim based on one's own feelings and opinions, why should we believe you need to believe in God to enter Heaven?"

"What will you say during the Great Judgment when you will see the martyrs who died for believing in Christ, from Pagan Rome to ISIS? What about those who died defending the icons in Church against the popularity of iconoclasm at that time? (the martyrs of Byzantine iconoclasm)? What will you say to Saint Athanasius, who was persecuted for fighting against Arianism? Or Saint Flavian, who was murdered for accepting Dyophytism? Or Saint Cyprian and Saint Stephen, who debated fiercely about the necessity of rebaptism? Are all of these great and holy saints "white-washed tombs" who died in vain as hypocrites? Your accusing these great and honorable people for dying for even the littlest detail about the Faith as Pharisee-hypocrites, while you yourself are clean of sin, not caring about what you believe in, ow can you call defenders of moral Truth hypocrites?"

"How can you say the Bible is subject to change, and on whose authority? (contradicting even what your Roman Catholic popes have said?)"


You've only given one answer to the "Tradition" argument, but the answer is flawed because murderers and their actions aren't commemorated in services - let ask you a question: Do the Eastern Orthodox or the Roman Catholics for that matter honor these murderers in their divine services? Is it part of either tradition?


I still find it very disturbing that you can dismiss Saint John Chrysostom and his teachings like that, believing your novel and nontraditional beliefs to be superior, and through direct implication, calling him a Hypocrite.

And you brought up the topic of homosexuality when you said that to be a True Christian one needs to allow homosexuality, and I am simply explaining how you are completely incorrect - in fact, you are the complete opposite of correct.

And honestly, I find you to be more of a Pharisee than I am: "If you disagree with me, my opinion which disagrees with the Church and the Bible, then you want to kill people."

Did I ever say that homosexuals should be killed? I'm sympathetic towards people who have such tendencies - especially those who decide to hang on to the Faith and follow through on it despite the cross they must bear.

Apparently the only form of argumentation you liberals adhere to - a form of strawman argumentation - if you disagree with me, you are just a murderer and oppressor in the closet and you should be stopped.

This same logic is what has caused Antifa to become so violent - they want to suppress anybody who holds a different belief than their cognitively inflexible worldview, believing that anybody who disagrees with them is actually a Fascist in disguise.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 11:21:08 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Keep shining, star!

Offline youssef

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For me i had reply to all of them. Did i open the subject of homosexuality here.
I had say to you that some doctrine are fixed they cannot change, and some depend on a cultural issue that we are free to changed at it doesn't contradict the fixed doctrine. So what the catholic church did in novus ordo doesn't contradict fixed doctrine.

Your church is responsible for the 30000 martyrs that i mention and other also killed by your church not any one else.
The catholics church has exused for many of their fault till now that is good, you didn't fo that yet. Some of the killer are consider saint.

Where did i say that the bible is able to change our understanding can change by accumulation of knowledge.

Now i know that you will not kill people but many traditional will do it. Why must of the traditional are white people by the way.

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

To what does this refer?

Offline youssef

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

To what does this refer?

After the council of chalchadonia and the egyptian refuse it you had 30000 martyr in alexandria by the chalcadonian.
Is it part of the church tradition?

Offline scamandrius

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 Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.

Are you?
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline youssef

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 Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.

Are you?

There is plenty of thing, i am not judging any christian or non christian living today.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

To what does this refer?

After the council of chalchadonia and the egyptian refuse it you had 30000 martyr in alexandria by the chalcadonian.
Is it part of the church tradition?

Romans accept that "tradition" too. And the Roman Catholic Church sine Eastern Orthodox have killed a lot more people in history. So, I don't see where you're going with that.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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 Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.

Are you?

There is plenty of thing, i am not judging any christian or non christian living today.

Oh great sinless one! Please entreat Christ our God to save us.
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Offline youssef

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

To what does this refer?

After the council of chalchadonia and the egyptian refuse it you had 30000 martyr in alexandria by the chalcadonian.
Is it part of the church tradition?

Romans accept that "tradition" too. And the Roman Catholic Church sine Eastern Orthodox have killed a lot more people in history. So, I don't see where you're going with that.


Many time i had say that i represent just my self, now in 2017 i am more closer to the catholics then the orthodox.


Offline youssef

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 Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.

Are you?

There is plenty of thing, i am not judging any christian or non christian living today.

Oh great sinless one! Please entreat Christ our God to save us.

Ok  ;D

Offline scamandrius

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 Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.

Are you?

There is plenty of thing, i am not judging any christian or non christian living today.

Your posts say otherwise.  #sorrynotsorry
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline youssef

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 Are you sure you have nothing in your eye.

Are you?

There is plenty of thing, i am not judging any christian or non christian living today.

Your posts say otherwise.  #sorrynotsorry

No the post are just reply to other post, they don't reflect clearly what i am think. I am just using the same way of argument.

Offline youssef

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Lepanto do you see the novus ordo mass valid or not?

Offline Sharbel

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I am more than willing to concede that the Church is currently facing some serious problems related to liturgical abuse (among others).
Of course, the tenet lex orandi lex credendi remains true as ever.
However what consequences am I to draw?
Jump ship and leave the true Church just because the future is "foreseeably bleak"?...

That the Roman Church is ill and perhaps terminally ill when the "source and summit" of her worship is hardly it.  Yes, the Church will go on, but Christianity has for all purposes died completely in some corners of the world where it used to thrive, even patriarchal sees.  Rome might as well join them.

The question is, if the Roman Church is ill, why is she?

I had see that in the last 2 years more people are going to church then before here in France. I am now entering to many church found them full in sunday mass.

Apparently from foreign immigration, so, in order to fill up churches in France, churches went empty elsewhere.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ

Offline youssef

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Here in paris most of the foreigner have their own mass in a church using their native language or like the maronite who have their own church who are always full bui i don't go there. These church are full of France people and african.

Offline youssef

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Here in paris most of the foreigner have their own mass in a church using their native language or like the maronite who have their own church who are always full bui i don't go there. These church are full of France people and african.

Also my observation is just in 4 churches in Paris so i can not say that it will be the same in other cburch.

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

To what does this refer?

After the council of chalchadonia and the egyptian refuse it you had 30000 martyr in alexandria by the chalcadonian.
Is it part of the church tradition?

Part of church history you mean? I'm not sure either way as I am largely unfamiliar with it.

Offline youssef

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

To what does this refer?

After the council of chalchadonia and the egyptian refuse it you had 30000 martyr in alexandria by the chalcadonian.
Is it part of the church tradition?

Part of church history you mean? I'm not sure either way as I am largely unfamiliar with it.

No i meant part of it tradition :D. Even the oriental orthodox here will not able to say that it didn't happen. Ask Mina
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 10:54:23 PM by youssef »

Offline Vanhyo

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

Maybe you mean by the Byzantine empire ? In the Orthodox Church priests are absolutely forbidden from participating in killings.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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My bad on the whole homosexuality issue, you brought it up elsewhere and I brought it up here, thinking for some reason you brought it up here.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 08:41:36 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline youssef

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There is 30000 oriental orthodox martyr killed in alexandria by the chalcadonian. Is that one of your tradition that you are proud of.

Maybe you mean by the Byzantine empire ? In the Orthodox Church priests are absolutely forbidden from participating in killings.

Who accept something it is like participate on it. No difference for me.

Offline youssef

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My bad on the whole homosexuality issue, you brought it up elsewhere and I brought it up here, thinking for some reason you brought it up here.

Me as liberal christian i am with the legalisation of same sex marriage because every group of people living in a country should have rights since this right doesn't hurt any one. What this subject has to do here.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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My bad on the whole homosexuality issue, you brought it up elsewhere and I brought it up here, thinking for some reason you brought it up here.

Me as liberal christian i am with the legalisation of same sex marriage because every group of people living in a country should have rights since this right doesn't hurt any one. What this subject has to do here.

It doesn't on this particular forum, and I'm sorry for bringing it up - it was pride on my part. I might of conflated your post elsewhere to this thread, but I think it was most likely pride. Although I still think you are wrong on the issue, and I will not give you that - but that's for another thread.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 11:29:28 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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For most of the church's history we didn't write new services because we didn't know how. Since liturgical studies around the 1800s, now we do. Catholic bishops and priests in the '50s fell for the modern belief in "Progress!" Streamline the services like the new jet planes and the church will get even better! That and some heresy (Annibale Bugnini, for example) produced the Novus Ordo, preserved from error because the Holy Spirit leads the church (I have no problem with the original Latin or the English since 2011) but unfortunate.

Infallible Church flopped on the fallible Mass.
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