Author Topic: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to declare liturgy changes ‘irreversible’  (Read 5944 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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ROME - Addressing a group of liturgical experts on Thursday, Pope Francis said that after the teaching of the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) and a long path of experience, “We can affirm with certainty and magisterial authority that the liturgical reform is irreversible.”

The declaration came in a speech on Thursday to Italy’s “Center of Liturgical Action,” which sponsors an annual National Liturgical Week.

By “liturgical reform,” Pope Francis meant the changes in Catholic rituals and modes of worship which followed from Vatican II, the most immediately visible elements of which included Mass facing the congregation, the use of vernacular languages, and a stronger emphasis on the “full, conscious and active” participation of the people.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/08/24/pope-invokes-magisterial-authority-declare-liturgy-changes-irreversible/
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Should this be considered infallible under RC doctrine?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 10:32:19 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Luke

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So if a Pope does not speak from the chair, but speaks with magisterial authority, how binding is it? :o  Confusing.

Offline Asteriktos

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So if a Pope does not speak from the chair, but speaks with magisterial authority, how binding is it? :o  Confusing.

Perhaps I just chatted with some overly enthusiastic Catholics back in the day(?), but I remember some of them talking about papal teaching authority as being in a middle ground between the general guidance Random T. Bishop might give, and on the other hand full-blown infallibility, where if a Pope said something as a pastor, that faithful Catholics were obligated to follow that ruling/guidance, regardless of whether it was meant to be infallible teaching or not. Which actually isn't that different from how some things work in Orthodoxy as a general principle, though it's on a much larger and more pervasive scale. For an example of it being applied in Orthodoxy, a bishop might make a decision/ruling on how converts are baptized, in which case that ruling may not be infallible or universally applicable, but it's pretty much set in stone as far as anyone under his care/jurisdiction is concerned. And for Catholics, everyone is under the Pope's loving guidance, and the Pope looms larger in the lives of people (in theory anyway).

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Should this be considered infallible under RC doctrine?

No, but it is "practically" infallible, as no substantive changes are remotely likely to occur. Infallibility is limited to faith and morals, and though the liturgy is obviously connected, it is usually conceived as a disciplinary matter, and as such the pope has full authority over it. It really has to be considered disciplinary in nature, or the post-Vatican II reforms themselves would be illegitimate. At the end of the day, if the pope wants to make up another new liturgy, or go back to the Tridentine liturgy, or even adopt the Byzantine rite, there is not really any real justification that Catholics can bring forward to stop him. Supreme, universal, immediate, ordinary, yadda yadda.
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Offline Faithseeker

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Unless it is declared ex cathedra then it's not an infallible dogma.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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10 Popes later, there will be a new revision and change. Bet on it.
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Offline Asteriktos

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10 bishops later there will be a change in the method of receiving converts. Bet on it.  :P  ;)

Offline Porter ODoran

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10 bishops later there will be a change in the method of receiving converts. Bet on it.  :P  ;)

Were you taught that this matter rises to the level of creating a new liturgy? or that your bishop's economia is infallible and unchanging? I find that hard to believe. I think it's more likely, from your posting history, that this is another "intellectual and subtle" attack on Orthodox belief and believers.
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Offline Agabus

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"Today, Pope Francis said, “there is still work to do in this direction, in particular rediscovering the reasons for the decisions made with the liturgical reform, overcoming unfounded and superficial readings, partial receptions, and practices that disfigure it.” He said that this is not a question “of rethinking the reform by reviewing its choices, but of knowing better the underlying reasons [for it]… [and] of internalizing its inspirational principles and of observing the discipline that governs it.”

From here.

In other words, "The NO is here to stay, but don't think it means clown masses."
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 12:04:46 AM by Agabus »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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I wonder how this affects the prospects of Ecumenism - as although the Tridentine Liturgy certainly has elements (artwork, unleavened bread, etc.) which aren't in line with Orthodox Liturgy, the Novus Ordo Mass in both its logical existence (that thousands of years of liturgical history are permitted to change on a dime by the authority of a single individual - that it is the Pope that binds tradition, not vice-versa) and in many of the elements which are permitted, (such as the priest facing the people, communion in the hand, "Eucharistic ministers"; and in some instances, rock bands in mass and iconoclastic churches) are such a drastic departure from traditional liturgy that I wonder how exactly the liturgy would work out should the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church ever be united - considering that this statement kind of rules out traditional liturgy as an option, and considering that the Orthodox Liturgy is the heart and the soul of the Orthodox Church. It also makes me wonder how Ecumenism would work in context of the very, very liberal direction the Pope is and is able to take the Roman Catholic Church. It's sad.

Also, although this statement is binding, by no means can this authority be seen as infallible, as it isn't binding for the entirety of the Western churches (e.g., the Maronites don't have to folllow it), and liturgy is more or less viewed as disciplinary and not dogmatic from the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church. We know this for a fundamental fact because Pope Pius V made a similar statement for the Tridentine mass, even going so far to say that "this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever" and "Anybody (who uses a different missal) will invoke the Wrath of Almighty God and the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul" in his encyclical "Quo Primum," and these were the lines of reasoning used for the liturgical reform of Vatican II (and many SSPX and Sedevacantists see Quo Primum as an infallible declaration)

Still, it sets a precedent that will most likely be followed for maybe hundreds of years. It's a shame.
Maybe Pope Francis in the Novus Ordo liturgy can change some of the elements which aren't good practice, which I pointed out in order to make a good compromise, but I doubt it.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 09:35:26 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2017, 09:27:11 AM »
I think all the parsing of infallibility, doctrine/morals vs discipline, etc around this statement is a pretty good illustration of how meaningless Papal infallibility really is. It seems the Pope's statement is nothing more than a particularly forceful expression of his own opinion that can be confirmed or overturned at will by his successors.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2017, 09:29:08 AM »
I think all the parsing of infallibility, doctrine/morals vs discipline, etc around this statement is a pretty good illustration of how meaningless Papal infallibility really is. It seems the Pope's statement is nothing more than a particularly forceful expression of his own opinion that can be confirmed or overturned at will by his successors.

+1
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 09:29:58 AM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’ to
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2017, 09:47:18 AM »
I think all the parsing of infallibility, doctrine/morals vs discipline, etc around this statement is a pretty good illustration of how meaningless Papal infallibility really is. It seems the Pope's statement is nothing more than a particularly forceful expression of his own opinion that can be confirmed or overturned at will by his successors.

The papacy is a paper tiger.
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Offline Lepanto

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As an estimated 95% of Catholic masses are NO masses (no pun intended), acknowledging the fact that the change is irreversible is not really groundbreaking.
However, this is of course not really good news.
It just confirms the confinement of the so-called trad Catholics to their drying-out biotopes and gives little cause to hope that the Tridentine mass could be adopted on a larger scale again.
Sigh.
Really, I worry about all this, wonder where we are heading.
I got a feeling the worst is yet to come.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 11:15:06 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline Agabus

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As an estimated 95% of Catholic masses are NO masses (no pun intended), acknowledging the fact that the change is irreversible is not really groundbreaking.
However, this is of course not really good news.
It just confirms the confinement of the so-called trad Catholics to their drying-out biotopes and gives little cause to hope that the Tridentine mass could be adopted on a larger scale again.
Sigh.
Really, I worry about all this, wonder where we are heading.
I got a feeling the worst is yet to come.

I honestly don't have any strong feelings about the NO versus the EF.

But I don't think this ghettoizes the EF any more than its most enthusiastic proponents do.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2017, 01:08:52 PM »
But I don't think this ghettoizes the EF any more than its most enthusiastic proponents do.

Well, they just know that any day now the entire church is going to collapse around them leaving them in the majority.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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10 bishops later there will be a change in the method of receiving converts. Bet on it.  :P  ;)

Okay? I don't think there's an ordinance anywhere that deems one way of receiving irreformable and the other way is jettisoned. Rome has done this before, and is doing this again now. That's a very obvious difference, and if you cannot see such an apparent difference, then you're completely lost.
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Offline Helladius

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Hmm... on the whole :( this doesn't sound too good! I suppose maybe - if I have understood the article correctly - there is one good point, in that by emphasising that the importance of the laity/congregation in the celebration of the Mass perhaps Pope Francis is affirming an orthodoxy which Catholicism has sometimes stepped away from (albeit a long time ago I guess!)... thinking of medieval chantry chapels with priests saying a hundred Masses a day for the souls of the departed with no congregation present. But modern Catholicism is probably already light years away from this problem anyway?

If Pope Francis is speaking with magisterial authority, can Traditionalists who recognise him as pope (so not sede vacantists) in good conscience disobey his instructions here? To what extent is it binding upon all Catholics to obey the pope when he gives an instruction with magisterial authority, regardless of their private conscience? Can any Catholics explain this situation, as I'm not quite sure exactly what it means - thanks!
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Offline Agabus

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I think it's kind of funny to see Orthodox people fretting that the RCC pope tells the people they should use the liturgy that they've been using for 50 years.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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I think it's kind of funny to see Orthodox people fretting that the RCC pope tells the people they should use the liturgy that they've been using for 50 years.

Yes sir!

Also funny to hear from Catholics who seem somehow to have thought Vatican II would evaporate someday.
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Offline scamandrius

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This doesn't invalidate the Tridentine or Extraordinary Rite since the Tridentine council had declared that Mass to be used "for all time" by Pope Pius V.  I think all this done by Francis is done motu proprio which Pope Benedict XVI used to free up the restrictions on celebrating Mass according to the Tridentine Rite.  It does not invalidate Benedict's move nor Pius'. 
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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My question is this: Is the media overblowing a statement by the Pope, as it tends to do?

It seems that the Pope said "after this magisterial and long journey we can affirm that the liturgical reform is irreversible."

However, does such a comment qualify as an Ex Cathedra statement?
Given the Roman church's history, especially Vatican II, I wonder. It's not like he's following the usual lines of "We declare with Apostolic Authority such and such and such and such," or "We command and declare with Christ's authority such and such," he's simply saying that "this has been a long journey, but we have to admit that we can't reverse the liturgy."

One thing, though, that is really offends me personally is how the Pope creates this caricature of people who want dignified and consistent liturgy as these ultra-conservative Pharisees who cause poor, young converts to leave the church in despair.

From American Jesuit Review:
"Moreover, seeking to counter a clerical mentality in celebrating the liturgy, Francis emphasized that “the liturgy is life for the entire people of the church,” and “by its nature the liturgy is in fact ‘popular’ and not clerical” because “it is an action for the people but also of the people.”"
"There has been a tendency to use the liturgy to exclude people, but Francis has had little time for this approach. Today again he said, “The church in prayer gathers all those whose have a heart that listens to the Gospel, without excluding anyone: The small and the great are called, as are the rich and the poor, children and old people, the healthy and the sick, the just and sinners."
"Pope Francis concluded his talk by emphasizing yet again that “the liturgy is life, not an idea to be understood.” Liturgical worship “is not above all a doctrine to be understood or a rite to be accomplished,” the pope said. “It is a wellspring of life and of light for our journey of faith.”"


I personally argue that it is his promotion of moral-relativism and watered-down theology is what causes people to leave the church, as there is no reason to really care about one's faith at that point.

I hope that such liturgical apathy never comes in the Orthodox Church to the same degree that it has the RCC.

I'm one of those people who would even be okay allowing people to pray at Christian concerts - but I mean, there is a time and place for everything, and there is a time to be reminded of Heaven and in solemnity receive the Body (and Blood) of Christ.

But then again, I'm just some dude rambling on the internet, he's the Pope.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:37:04 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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I think it's kind of funny to see Orthodox people fretting that the RCC pope tells the people they should use the liturgy that they've been using for 50 years.

For me, it is terrifying how simply one council was able to dismantle thousands of years of tradition (not perfect tradition, but still better than now), and allow so much artistic liberalism and inconsistency, even to the point of direct blasphemy - and it is concerning if such a thing will ever be attempted in the Orthodox Church.

Maybe it is a symptom of absolute monarchism and its consequences, and maybe the collegial structure of the Church will prevent something like that from happening...

What will happen to the Orthodox Church if something parallel occurs out of "ecumenism" or something?

Because certainly, if no other churches exist with any respect for liturgy, the result will be pressure from the rest of the Christian world and thus, the results will be spiritually deceived or selfish wolves who enter the Church, the so called "heroes against the Pharisees" who will try to change the Liturgy "for the purposes of "ecumenism"", or "the Liturgy having a central role in one's spiritual life is Pharisaical" or "the Church needs to modernize," or "the Church having art is against the calling of Christ for us to be against private property, because Christ was a socialist revolutionary" or any of these other vain and flawed reasons.

It's a terrifying thought to imagine the Orthodox Church without Her Liturgy.

Obviously, it isn't the absolutely ONLY important thing in one's spiritual journey, but it is of grand significance, so much so that people have died and been martyred just so they can use icons.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:47:53 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Agabus

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What will happen to the Orthodox Church if something parallel occurs out of "ecumenism" or something?

Because certainly, if no other churches exist with any respect for liturgy, the result will be pressure from the rest of the Christian world and thus, the results will be spiritually deceived or selfish wolves, so called "heroes against the Pharisees" who will try to change the Liturgy in order to conform to the world or for the purposes of "ecumenism" or who believe that the Liturgy having a central role in one's spiritual life is Pharisaical or who believe that "the Church needs to modernize," or any of these other vain reasons.

How long have you been hanging around Orthodox churches?

The likelihood of this scenario happening is nil.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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What will happen to the Orthodox Church if something parallel occurs out of "ecumenism" or something?

Because certainly, if no other churches exist with any respect for liturgy, the result will be pressure from the rest of the Christian world and thus, the results will be spiritually deceived or selfish wolves, so called "heroes against the Pharisees" who will try to change the Liturgy in order to conform to the world or for the purposes of "ecumenism" or who believe that the Liturgy having a central role in one's spiritual life is Pharisaical or who believe that "the Church needs to modernize," or any of these other vain reasons.

How long have you been hanging around Orthodox churches?

The likelihood of this scenario happening is nil.

For a year and a half, and of course, I don't know everything.

As of now, I agree.
But, "what if?"

And even though Christ promised the gates of hell won't prevail against the Church, they've at points have come pretty dang close - one needs to look at Arianism, Iconoclasm, Florence, etc.

I guess I just need to have faith, but shouldn't we be on our defense, for the "Devil is prowling around like a lion?"
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:56:27 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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What will happen to the Orthodox Church if something parallel occurs out of "ecumenism" or something?

Because certainly, if no other churches exist with any respect for liturgy, the result will be pressure from the rest of the Christian world and thus, the results will be spiritually deceived or selfish wolves, so called "heroes against the Pharisees" who will try to change the Liturgy in order to conform to the world or for the purposes of "ecumenism" or who believe that the Liturgy having a central role in one's spiritual life is Pharisaical or who believe that "the Church needs to modernize," or any of these other vain reasons.

How long have you been hanging around Orthodox churches?

The likelihood of this scenario happening is nil.

For a year and a half, and of course, I don't know everything.

As of now, I agree.
But, "what if?"

And even though Christ promised the gates of hell won't prevail against the Church, they've at points have come pretty dang close - one needs to look at Arianism, Iconoclasm, Florence, etc.

I guess I just need to have faith, but shouldn't we be on our defense, for the "Devil is prowling around like a lion?"

Maybe it's just my liturgical PTSD from Roman Catholicism talking, not any semblance of reality.

But if the Church grows throughout the world, and all other Christian sects abandon the Traditional understanding of liturgy, certainly these latter sects will influence the Church in a negative way in the minds of Her children.

Oh well....let's focus on the now, not the future, and truly have Faith in God.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:05:16 PM by LivenotoneviL »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Orthodoxy is different from the core. You will encounter a certain amount of modern-sounding talk, but in my experience it's superficial and the core remains unmolested. Also we have many patriarchs and hierarchs, and in a cord of many ply is strength.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Orthodoxy is different from the core. You will encounter a certain amount of modern-sounding talk, but in my experience it's superficial and the core remains unmolested. Also we have many patriarchs and hierarchs, and in a cord of many ply is strength.

That's what Michael Whelton said, and I agree with him.
"I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
Through belief in the Threeness,
Through confession of the Oneness
of the Creator of creation."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

Offline ConfusedRC

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As an estimated 95% of Catholic masses are NO masses (no pun intended), acknowledging the fact that the change is irreversible is not really groundbreaking.
However, this is of course not really good news.
It just confirms the confinement of the so-called trad Catholics to their drying-out biotopes and gives little cause to hope that the Tridentine mass could be adopted on a larger scale again.
Sigh.
Really, I worry about all this, wonder where we are heading.
I got a feeling the worst is yet to come.

I think is further proof that he will try to get rid of the TLM.
I am no longer a "confused Roman Catholic" as I joined the Orthodox Church in April 2016.

Offline Sharbel

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At the end of the day, the Catholic hierarchs are very selective considering which papal pronouncement is infallible and which one is not.  For instance, St. JPII used very precise words to state dogmatically that the Catholic Church cannot ordain women, invoking his Petrine privilege.  Yet, I've yet to meet a priest or a bishop who considers it infallible.  Conversely, many quickly enthrone any sneeze by Pope FI as part of the Petrine charisma. "Peter has sneezed", they might say.  :)


Bottom line, move along, there's nothing new to see here, in this relentless decadence of the Roman Church.
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Offline Sharbel

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Sigh.
Really, I worry about all this, wonder where we are heading.
I got a feeling the worst is yet to come.
After 50 years of the malignant spirit of VII it should be pretty clear where the Roman Church is going, or at least what most of her bishops are striving to accomplish.
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Offline Sharbel

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I think is further proof that he will try to get rid of the TLM.
It's my suspicion too.  Pope BXVI's Motu Proprio is already being ignored by many bishops throughout the world.  A discombobulated liturgy as the Novus Ordo couldn't but lead to a discombobulated faith.  After all, lex orandi, lex credendi (roughly, "as one prays, so one believes").


Lord, have mercy!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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At the end of the day, the Catholic hierarchs are very selective considering which papal pronouncement is infallible and which one is not. 

Why is it their job to decide which papal pronouncement is infallible?  They don't have that charism according to their own system. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Sharbel

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At the end of the day, the Catholic hierarchs are very selective considering which papal pronouncement is infallible and which one is not. 
Why is it their job to decide which papal pronouncement is infallible?  They don't have that charism according to their own system.
Exactly, it's not.  As a matter of fact, they use the approach of acknowledging a teaching as orthodox much like the Orthodox Church in acknowledging a council as ecumenical: a posteriori based on the acceptance by the hierarchs and the people, in spite of the Roman Church claiming to have the privilege of making such judgements a priori.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 10:36:56 PM by Sharbel »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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The Popes of the Middle Ages said the Latin Mass and the Vulgate were irreformable... look how long that lasted.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Agabus

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What will happen to the Orthodox Church if something parallel occurs out of "ecumenism" or something?

Because certainly, if no other churches exist with any respect for liturgy, the result will be pressure from the rest of the Christian world and thus, the results will be spiritually deceived or selfish wolves, so called "heroes against the Pharisees" who will try to change the Liturgy in order to conform to the world or for the purposes of "ecumenism" or who believe that the Liturgy having a central role in one's spiritual life is Pharisaical or who believe that "the Church needs to modernize," or any of these other vain reasons.

How long have you been hanging around Orthodox churches?

The likelihood of this scenario happening is nil.

For a year and a half, and of course, I don't know everything.

As of now, I agree.
But, "what if?"

First off, you'd have to get all the churches on board, and so far, we can't even get people to agree on an agenda that everyone will attend to discuss.

Assuming that every happens, you'd still have to convince all of the churches to actually make the change.

People are still rumbling about the calendar (which wasn't even a real reform), and that shift -- which still isn't universally adopted -- happened nearly 100 years ago.

So tinkering with the liturgy beyond maybe quietly removing a petition here or an litany there within the confines of your jurisdiction? Forget about it.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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What will happen to the Orthodox Church if something parallel occurs out of "ecumenism" or something?

Because certainly, if no other churches exist with any respect for liturgy, the result will be pressure from the rest of the Christian world and thus, the results will be spiritually deceived or selfish wolves, so called "heroes against the Pharisees" who will try to change the Liturgy in order to conform to the world or for the purposes of "ecumenism" or who believe that the Liturgy having a central role in one's spiritual life is Pharisaical or who believe that "the Church needs to modernize," or any of these other vain reasons.

How long have you been hanging around Orthodox churches?

The likelihood of this scenario happening is nil.

For a year and a half, and of course, I don't know everything.

As of now, I agree.
But, "what if?"

First off, you'd have to get all the churches on board, and so far, we can't even get people to agree on an agenda that everyone will attend to discuss.

Assuming that every happens, you'd still have to convince all of the churches to actually make the change.

People are still rumbling about the calendar (which wasn't even a real reform), and that shift -- which still isn't universally adopted -- happened nearly 100 years ago.

So tinkering with the liturgy beyond maybe quietly removing a petition here or an litany there within the confines of your jurisdiction? Forget about it.

True.
"I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
Through belief in the Threeness,
Through confession of the Oneness
of the Creator of creation."

May God one day unite me with the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

Offline The young fogey

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Should this be considered infallible under RC doctrine?

No.

Liturgy is discipline and culture, not doctrine.

My guess is this statement, rather than the coverage of it, is just standard rhetoric since Vatican II supporting the new Mass. That Mass isn't going away any time soon.

While I don't like the new Mass, it is the Mass. Since Benedict XVI's reform in English, I'm fine with it though I use and prefer the old form. In good conscience I can go to Mass anywhere in the United States and thanks to the new text, people will learn the faith from it. I see the new Mass a few times a year: holy days of obligation, Sundays when there is a car show or flea market so I can't make it to my usual traditional Mass, or traveling/vacation.

So no, I'm not foaming at the mouth or considering leaving the church in order to claim that Byzantine Christianity is the center of the universe and the Roman Mass has been graceless all these centuries. I like Byzantine Christianity (the Orthodox small-t tradition) very much; it is my part-time home (monthly Liturgy, and an icon corner and your prayers at home) and some Westerners are called to it full-time. But no.

What's going on in the American Catholic Church: the old liberals who wanted to get rid of the old-fashioned stuff are dying out. The few young people who stay want real religion. Most of my semi-traditionalist parish (my Sunday-morning Tridentine Mass) is couples in their 30s and their many children because the parish is a magnet for them.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Should this be considered infallible under RC doctrine?

No.

Liturgy is discipline and culture, not doctrine.

What a sad commentary on the decay of the venerable Western tradition, which has gone from lex orandi, lex credendi to, essentially, "whatever costumes and scripts you prefer, enjoy the show". 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:25:08 PM by Mor Ephrem »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline The young fogey

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Ritual for its own sake is what modern Episcopalianism's accused of. I mean of course that as long as you keep our teachings, there are many cultural expressions of them, which is partly why there are several rites.
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Offline sedevacantist

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Should this be considered infallible under RC doctrine?

No.

Liturgy is discipline and culture, not doctrine.

My guess is this statement, rather than the coverage of it, is just standard rhetoric since Vatican II supporting the new Mass. That Mass isn't going away any time soon.

While I don't like the new Mass, it is the Mass. Since Benedict XVI's reform in English, I'm fine with it though I use and prefer the old form. In good conscience I can go to Mass anywhere in the United States and thanks to the new text, people will learn the faith from it. I see the new Mass a few times a year: holy days of obligation, Sundays when there is a car show or flea market so I can't make it to my usual traditional Mass, or traveling/vacation.

So no, I'm not foaming at the mouth or considering leaving the church in order to claim that Byzantine Christianity is the center of the universe and the Roman Mass has been graceless all these centuries. I like Byzantine Christianity (the Orthodox small-t tradition) very much; it is my part-time home (monthly Liturgy, and an icon corner and your prayers at home) and some Westerners are called to it full-time. But no.

What's going on in the American Catholic Church: the old liberals who wanted to get rid of the old-fashioned stuff are dying out. The few young people who stay want real religion. Most of my semi-traditionalist parish (my Sunday-morning Tridentine Mass) is couples in their 30s and their many children because the parish is a magnet for them.
by attending the new mass you are insulting Christ since it is a protestant mass
Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum Tempore, July 14, 1570: “Now, therefore, in
order that all everywhere may adopt and observe what has been delivered to
them by the Holy Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of the other churches,
it shall be unlawful henceforth and forever throughout the Christian world to
sing or to read Masses according to any formula other than this Missal
published by Us... Accordingly, no one whosoever is permitted to
infringe or rashly contravene this notice of Our permission, statute,
ordinance, command, direction, grant, indult, declaration, will,
decree, and prohibition. Should any venture to do so, let him
understand that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the
blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”2
On April 3, 1969, Paul VI replaced the Traditional Latin Mass in the Vatican II
churches with his own creation, the New Mass or Novus Ordo.

When the New Mass came out in 1969, Cardinals Ottaviani, Bacci, and some other
theologians wrote to Paul VI about it. Keep in mind that what they said about the
New Mass concerns the Latin Version, the so-called “most pure” version of the New
Mass. Their study is popularly known as The Ottaviani Intervention. It states:
“ The Novus Ordo [the New Order of Mass] represents, both as a whole and in
its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was
formulated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent.” 4
They could clearly see that the Latin version of the New Mass was a striking
departure from the teaching of the Council of Trent. Of the twelve offertory prayers in
the Traditional Mass, only two are retained in the New Mass. The deleted offertory
prayers are the same ones that the Protestant heretics Martin Luther and Thomas
Cranmer eliminated. The New Mass was promulgated by Paul VI with the help of six
Protestant Ministers.

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2017, 09:14:55 AM »
I mean of course that as long as you keep our teachings, there are many cultural expressions of them, which is partly why there are several rites.

Multiple rites arise organically over centuries when the same faith is planted in different cultures. The Novus Ordo is nothing like that.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pope invokes ‘magisterial authority’
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2017, 09:35:29 AM »
I mean of course that as long as you keep our teachings, there are many cultural expressions of them, which is partly why there are several rites.

Multiple rites arise organically over centuries when the same faith is planted in different cultures. The Novus Ordo is nothing like that.

+1.  It's just a cut and paste job.
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