Author Topic: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”  (Read 1613 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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“What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« on: August 10, 2017, 05:32:06 PM »
Quote
In the far-off Korea, the Land of the Morning Calm, there has been for at least four decades a unique spiritual and missionary work, which has resulted in a strong Orthodox witness. The responsibility of these efforts fall to the Orthodox Metropolis of Korea, whose work has resulted in good fruit as a result of the inspired choices of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, together with the profound endeavours, first from the Bishop of Zela and then Metropolitan of Korea, Sotirios Trambas, then by his predecessor and current Metropolitan of Korea, Ambrosios Zographos.

This work is supported and enhanced by the holy clergy, in collaboration with the small yet dynamic flock, who together are distinguished for their openness in a country whose powerful tradition favours quietness and introversion. The Orthodox Metropolis of Korea, clergy and laity, together comprise an icon of ecclesiastical community that is characterized by strong ties, solidarity, a willingness to help, and of courtesy, which characterizes the people of Korea; with humility, they resemble the Christians of the first ancient Church.

However, this multifaceted work, which testifies to the best witness for the Orthodox Church, is often harmed, not by external threats but by internal ambitions and claims, which remind us more of a political mindset, rather than brotherly relations within the framework and as defined by the Holy Canons and the decisions taken by ecumenical and local synods throughout the centuries. At least this is what was shown to us as a result of our interview with Metropolitan Ambrosios of Korea following his recent meeting with representatives from the Moscow Patriarchate who visited Seoul.

https://www.orthodoxkorea.org/en-interview-amen-2017/
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 06:16:37 PM »
It's almost as tho the Orthodox world would benefit by its missions being overseen by an essentially politically-neutral yet ancient patriarchate, such as the one cut off from local influence in Turkey today.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 06:40:53 PM »
It's almost as tho the Orthodox world would benefit by its missions being overseen by an essentially politically-neutral yet ancient patriarchate, such as the one cut off from local influence in Turkey today.

lol
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 06:43:02 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:44:00 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 02:52:45 PM »
It's almost as tho the Orthodox world would benefit by its missions being overseen by an essentially politically-neutral yet ancient patriarchate, such as the one cut off from local influence in Turkey today.
so it can use such influence for its own parochial concerns.

Quote
Now, for what purpose Russian diplomats participate in the interactions of Russian clergy with the Metropolitan of the Orthodox Metropolis of Korea, heterodox churches, and the Mayor of Seoul, I leave it to the discernment and judgment of the readers of this interview.
Same reason why a Greek-American diplomat in Qatar carries the title of "Representative of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem to the United States"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_N._Theros
and the Phanar won't take a canonical position in the matter of Jerusalem intruding onto Antioch's canonical territory....


What is at stake is not Christ, but Hellenic phyletism and Phanariot Ultramarism.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 02:54:42 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 02:55:33 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
Alexandria.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 03:07:17 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
Alexandria.

Might as well say Rome.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 03:17:55 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
Alexandria.

Might as well say Rome.
Only if you are an Ultramarist.

Again, you were answered. You just did not like the facts.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 03:18:33 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 03:21:01 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
Alexandria.

Might as well say Rome.
Only if you are an Ultramarist.

Again, you were answered. You just did not like the facts.

Mentioning our patriarchate in Rome is ultra-whatsit?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 03:39:00 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
Alexandria.

Might as well say Rome.
Only if you are an Ultramarist.

Again, you were answered. You just did not like the facts.

Mentioning our patriarchate in Rome is ultra-whatsit?
Who is "we"? You coming out of the Ultramontanist closet?

We Orthodox do not have a Patriarchate in Old Rome at present.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 04:00:44 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2017, 05:00:57 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
I'd ask why not if I had an interest in your opinion.

The fact remains we have one. In fact, the largest (nearly) Patriarchate we have.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:01:24 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2017, 05:48:01 PM »
You sure play fast and loose with your superlatives. MP's the biggest, now AlexP. Not that the discussions we're having have ever called for who's is biggest. Obsession all your own.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2017, 06:01:48 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
Alexandria.

Indeed so.  The 13th Apostle and Judge of the Universe, a Patriarchate noted for resolving disputes between other Patriarchates, and together with the Coptic Pope, the heir to Sts. Mark, Athanasius and Cyril.  Axios!

The Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria also wears a distinctive mitre; in its shape it reminds me slightly of the old Papal Tiaras of Rome.

Due to the Greek diaspora in South Africa and the Missions, the Church of Alexandria is quite large.  Although the largest Orthodox Church in Africa probably remains the Ethiopian, with 40 million members.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2017, 06:07:33 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
I'd ask why not if I had an interest in your opinion.

The fact remains we have one. In fact, the largest (nearly) Patriarchate we have.


Awesome.  I love the archaic Greco-Egyptian nomenclature.  The Greeks are so good at that.  Most jurisdictions would've used the names of contemporary countries or geographic regions, but no!  Instead we get the Archdioceses of Nubia, Tripolis, Aksum, Ptolemais, et al.  Makes me want to break out my toga and laurel wreath.

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2017, 08:26:03 PM »
You sure play fast and loose with your superlatives. MP's the biggest, now AlexP.
Hence the "(nearly)". But then reading comprehension was never your thing.

How much larger the MP is depends on the jurisdiction of the MP outside of its canonical territory (which is much larger than your Phanariot overlords admit). As it is, it is larger only because of its Autonomous Church of China, and only barely. When it comes to uncontested jurisdiction, Alexandria is larger. The MP remains the most populous, of course.
Not that the discussions we're having have ever called for who's is biggest. Obsession all your own.
No, your phanariot projections'.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpha60

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2017, 01:35:35 AM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
I'd ask why not if I had an interest in your opinion.

The fact remains we have one. In fact, the largest (nearly) Patriarchate we have.


Awesome.  I love the archaic Greco-Egyptian nomenclature.  The Greeks are so good at that.  Most jurisdictions would've used the names of contemporary countries or geographic regions, but no!  Instead we get the Archdioceses of Nubia, Tripolis, Aksum, Ptolemais, et al.  Makes me want to break out my toga and laurel wreath.



Let us retire to the Andron for a symposium sometime, then.  Apparently it is possible to eat while reclining, and the novelty of the experience might well prove interesting.  With any luck, an aspiring philosopher might distort our words and dramatize them into an epic dialogue which will influence the future for another twenty five centuries, therefore the subject matter must not be bereft of that quality the Romans called gravitas.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2017, 11:06:46 AM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
I'd ask why not if I had an interest in your opinion.

The fact remains we have one. In fact, the largest (nearly) Patriarchate we have.


Awesome.  I love the archaic Greco-Egyptian nomenclature.  The Greeks are so good at that.  Most jurisdictions would've used the names of contemporary countries or geographic regions, but no!  Instead we get the Archdioceses of Nubia, Tripolis, Aksum, Ptolemais, et al.  Makes me want to break out my toga and laurel wreath.



Let us retire to the Andron for a symposium sometime, then.  Apparently it is possible to eat while reclining, and the novelty of the experience might well prove interesting.  With any luck, an aspiring philosopher might distort our words and dramatize them into an epic dialogue which will influence the future for another twenty five centuries, therefore the subject matter must not be bereft of that quality the Romans called gravitas.

You've just described my view of the Politics forum on oc.net.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2017, 01:07:15 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
I'd ask why not if I had an interest in your opinion.

The fact remains we have one. In fact, the largest (nearly) Patriarchate we have.


Awesome.  I love the archaic Greco-Egyptian nomenclature.  The Greeks are so good at that.  Most jurisdictions would've used the names of contemporary countries or geographic regions, but no!  Instead we get the Archdioceses of Nubia, Tripolis, Aksum, Ptolemais, et al.  Makes me want to break out my toga and laurel wreath.



Let us retire to the Andron for a symposium sometime, then.  Apparently it is possible to eat while reclining, and the novelty of the experience might well prove interesting.  With any luck, an aspiring philosopher might distort our words and dramatize them into an epic dialogue which will influence the future for another twenty five centuries, therefore the subject matter must not be bereft of that quality the Romans called gravitas.

You've just described my view of the Politics forum on oc.net.

Do you customarily adorn yourself in a toga and have kraters of wine prepared with water and spices for your consumption, and recline, when going therein to post?  Perhaps with a slave playing the lyre in your courtyard.   ;D

It amuses me to imagine this on a certain level, in particular given the rhetorical art to which you ascend.  (Of late, I have been spending some energy seeking to work out wih which members of the Alexandrian Canon to associate you and certain other members, for the Persona thread; Mor has alas seized the position of Demosthenes, but rest assured, your canonicity is without question).   
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:08:13 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2017, 05:43:40 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
I'd ask why not if I had an interest in your opinion.

The fact remains we have one. In fact, the largest (nearly) Patriarchate we have.


Awesome.  I love the archaic Greco-Egyptian nomenclature.  The Greeks are so good at that.  Most jurisdictions would've used the names of contemporary countries or geographic regions, but no!  Instead we get the Archdioceses of Nubia, Tripolis, Aksum, Ptolemais, et al.  Makes me want to break out my toga and laurel wreath.



Let us retire to the Andron for a symposium sometime, then.  Apparently it is possible to eat while reclining, and the novelty of the experience might well prove interesting.  With any luck, an aspiring philosopher might distort our words and dramatize them into an epic dialogue which will influence the future for another twenty five centuries, therefore the subject matter must not be bereft of that quality the Romans called gravitas.

You've just described my view of the Politics forum on oc.net.

Do you customarily adorn yourself in a toga and have kraters of wine prepared with water and spices for your consumption, and recline, when going therein to post?  Perhaps with a slave playing the lyre in your courtyard.   ;D

It amuses me to imagine this on a certain level, in particular given the rhetorical art to which you ascend.  (Of late, I have been spending some energy seeking to work out wih which members of the Alexandrian Canon to associate you and certain other members, for the Persona thread; Mor has alas seized the position of Demosthenes, but rest assured, your canonicity is without question).

I'm beginning to think you've hacked my camera.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2017, 07:24:01 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.
I'd ask why not if I had an interest in your opinion.

The fact remains we have one. In fact, the largest (nearly) Patriarchate we have.


Awesome.  I love the archaic Greco-Egyptian nomenclature.  The Greeks are so good at that.  Most jurisdictions would've used the names of contemporary countries or geographic regions, but no!  Instead we get the Archdioceses of Nubia, Tripolis, Aksum, Ptolemais, et al.  Makes me want to break out my toga and laurel wreath.



Let us retire to the Andron for a symposium sometime, then.  Apparently it is possible to eat while reclining, and the novelty of the experience might well prove interesting.  With any luck, an aspiring philosopher might distort our words and dramatize them into an epic dialogue which will influence the future for another twenty five centuries, therefore the subject matter must not be bereft of that quality the Romans called gravitas.

You've just described my view of the Politics forum on oc.net.

Do you customarily adorn yourself in a toga and have kraters of wine prepared with water and spices for your consumption, and recline, when going therein to post?  Perhaps with a slave playing the lyre in your courtyard.   ;D

It amuses me to imagine this on a certain level, in particular given the rhetorical art to which you ascend.  (Of late, I have been spending some energy seeking to work out wih which members of the Alexandrian Canon to associate you and certain other members, for the Persona thread; Mor has alas seized the position of Demosthenes, but rest assured, your canonicity is without question).

I'm beginning to think you've hacked my camera.

Should've changed the admin password to something other than an12345 eh old stick?   :P

I of course jest; I do not have root on your boxen and am not stealing your Internetz.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline The Misplaced Book

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2017, 12:23:24 AM »
Nobody actually commented on the substance of the article. 
"If Moses was excluded from the promised land over a single word, how much more will our big, sharp tongue deprive us of the Kingdom of Heaven, since the Lord says we'll have to account for every empty word we utter?"

-St. Nicodemos the Athonite

Offline Volnutt

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2017, 12:30:08 AM »
Nobody actually commented on the substance of the article.

Yeah, it happens.

I for one am glad that Korea is proving to be a fertile mission field. Many years to all of you!
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Father H

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 06:10:28 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.   
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 06:10:52 PM by Father H »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 07:55:07 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

That's one way to look at it. By the way, what does the fact Greeks don't say "Greek" have to do with anything?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2017, 08:29:17 PM »
Tripolis is still the name of Libya's capital city, though.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2017, 08:30:20 PM »
Tripolis is still the name of Libya's capital city, though.

Lebanon too.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2017, 03:13:54 AM »
Tripolis is still the name of Libya's capital city, though.
Lebanon too.
Lebanon's capital is Beirut, but Tripoli is the name of a major city there too.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 03:14:06 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Mercurius1

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2017, 05:26:06 PM »
In the state sense, old son. Obviously anybody can accuse anybody of politics in the vague sense. Point being, show me an ancient see further removed from major States' interests.
Alexandria.

Indeed so.  The 13th Apostle and Judge of the Universe, a Patriarchate noted for resolving disputes between other Patriarchates, and together with the Coptic Pope, the heir to Sts. Mark, Athanasius and Cyril.  Axios!

The Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria also wears a distinctive mitre; in its shape it reminds me slightly of the old Papal Tiaras of Rome.

Due to the Greek diaspora in South Africa and the Missions, the Church of Alexandria is quite large.  Although the largest Orthodox Church in Africa probably remains the Ethiopian, with 40 million members.


Any idea on how many Orthodox are in the Sub-Saharan portion of the Greek Patriarchate of Alexandria? I know they have been doing a lot of missionary work over the last 20 years almost, but, it's difficult to find good-solid info on it 

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2017, 02:26:46 PM »
No idea of the total sum, but there are 650k in Kenya, 60k in Tanzania, a good number in Nigeria and South Africa, and presence in many other countries, of which I can mention from the top of my head Mozambique (first country to have EO presence in Subsaharan Africa), Malawi, Madagascar, Ethiopia, Eritrea (Greek diaspora)... Côte d'Ivoire has a large Old Calendarist presence, but no idea of the canonical numbers.
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Offline Father H

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2017, 12:19:36 AM »
You are the one who made the big claim.  You are the one who has some 'splainin' to do.  Be careful.  Your ego may isolate you from your allies.  But maybe you think you are too big for your allies because it is an internet forum and you are so BIG here?  Know this, that if you answer wrong, you will have a heap of trouble, not because you answered on the wrong side, but because you answered WRONG. 

We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

That's one way to look at it. By the way, what does the fact Greeks don't say "Greek" have to do with anything?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2017, 01:14:49 PM »
You are the one who made the big claim.  You are the one who has some 'splainin' to do.  Be careful.  Your ego may isolate you from your allies.  But maybe you think you are too big for your allies because it is an internet forum and you are so BIG here?  Know this, that if you answer wrong, you will have a heap of trouble, not because you answered on the wrong side, but because you answered WRONG. 

We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

That's one way to look at it. By the way, what does the fact Greeks don't say "Greek" have to do with anything?

This post is somehow even less coherent than the last.

In case somebody really missed my point, my point was that the OO and EO partitioning of Egypt and Africa is morally unnecessary and perhaps even shameful. And, yes, I even venture the Pope is the rightful father of those lands, but all this is a moot until reunion. Still, confessing it is good for the EO soul.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2017, 02:00:52 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

So are you trying to say that the EO Pope of Alexandria is the legit Pope because of Chalcedon or merely because the Coptic Pope - who also has a residence in Alexandria - spends more of his time in Cairo?  Either way, your post seems an attempt to delegitimize the actual Orthodox Pope of Alexandria in his own country in favor of the Greek bishop.
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Offline Father H

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2017, 11:57:28 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

So are you trying to say that the EO Pope of Alexandria is the legit Pope because of Chalcedon or merely because the Coptic Pope - who also has a residence in Alexandria - spends more of his time in Cairo?  Either way, your post seems an attempt to delegitimize the actual Orthodox Pope of Alexandria in his own country in favor of the Greek bishop.

I meant precisely what I said.  "...your post seems..." (insert rolleyes).  That you read into things is your problem, not mine.  I don't owe you any explanation, since everything that I said is factually true.  Yet, for the sake of other readers, I will reply.

The Coptic Pope's actual See (Seat) is in Cairo, and has not been in Alexandria for nearly 1000 years.  That is a fact.  That your emotions get in the way is your problem, not mine.  In a united local church that agrees in Orthodox theology, I have little doubt (and little objection) that the now "Coptic Patriarch" would hold the See, but NOT because he holds it now, but because he has been de facto the archpastor of so many in Egypt itself.  BTW, how can he be Pope and Patriarch of "all Africa" when Ethiopia and Eritria have their own Patriarch?  I expect you to answer completely and in complete accordance with Orthodox ecclesiology.   

I have shown your Pope great respect.  Since you have challenged me I expect a complete and succinct ecclesiological defense from you.  I expect it to be perfect and without error, at all.     

BTW I don't believe in the modern "EO" and "OO" monikers.  I am NOT an "EASTERN ORTHODOX" (which by the way is bad grammar), but an Orthodox Christian from front to back.  BTW, even though I love those who subscribe as "EO", I challenge them as well to defend why they describe themselves as such.  I will add that the Orthodox Faith is Catholic, and that any of those from "either side" who negate that they are Orthodox Catholics (i.e. acknowledge that the Orthodox Faith is universal), I have NO PART WITH THEM.   


« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 12:03:29 AM by Father H »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2017, 12:29:28 AM »
Sheesh, ask a simple question, get a catty answer.

I meant precisely what I said. 

Then you're off base.

"...your post seems..." (insert rolleyes). 

Rolling your eyes?  What are you gonna do next?  Snap your fingers and rock your neck?

That you read into things is your problem, not mine. 

Yeah, your problem is apparently arrogance and cattiness.  No one is "reading into" anything.  I simply asked you to clarify your position and you got all snippy about it.

I don't owe you any explanation, since everything that I said is factually true.

The conclusion you're drawing - that the Pope of Alexandria isn't the Pope of Alexandria because of where he "actually resides" - doesn't make sense, especially since you're a member of a Church that makes bishops in England bishops of cities in Greece they've never set foot in and since your Patriarch of Antioch actually resides in Damascus, and since there hasn't been a city named Constantinople to be a bishop of for quite some time.  So let's not play semantic games.

Yet, for the sake of other readers, I will reply.

The poor "other readers".

The Coptic Pope's actual See (Seat) is in Cairo, and has not been in Alexandria for nearly 1000 years.  That is a fact.

Which doesn't mean he isn't the Orthodox bishop of Alexandria.  Since our churches are not presently in communion, we cannot at present say that there is another bishop in the city to rival his claim.

That your emotions get in the way is your problem, not mine.

We've already determined what your problem is.  There was no emotion involved in my post.  You're the one rolling your eyes and getting all Real Housewives of Atlanta about it.  I was just asking you to clarify a piece of writing with (at that time) unclear implications.

In a united local church that agrees in Orthodox theology, I have little doubt (and little objection) that the now "Coptic Patriarch" would hold the See, but NOT because he holds it now, but because he has been de facto the archpastor of so many in Egypt itself. 

He holds it now.  And "Coptic" is nowhere in his official title.  Don't get all emotional about it.

BTW, how can he be Pope and Patriarch of "all Africa" when Ethiopia and Eritria have their own Patriarch?  I expect you to answer completely and in complete accordance with Orthodox ecclesiology.   

"You expect". lol  I expect you to spell Eritrea right and not carry on like a pompous blowhard who thinks it's his place to give people orders.  Oops!  Anyway, the Patriarchs of Ethiopia and Eritrea afford the Patriarch of Alexandria primacy of honor on the continent since it was traditionally considered to be a part of his See.  Though autocephalous, they still consider themselves to be a part of the See of St. Mark.  Ask them.

I have shown your Pope great respect. 

No you haven't.  You've made it out as if he is - at present - a pretender to the title of "bishop of Alexandria".

Since you have challenged me I expect a complete and succinct ecclesiological defense from you.  I expect it to be perfect and without error, at all.   

"Since you have challenged me..."  "I expect..."  Get over yourself, D'Artagnan.

BTW I don't believe in the modern "EO" and "OO" monikers.  I am NOT an "EASTERN ORTHODOX" (which by the way is bad grammar), but an Orthodox Christian from front to back.  BTW, even though I love those who subscribe as "EO", I challenge them as well to defend why they describe themselves as such.  I will add that the Orthodox Faith is Catholic, and that any of those from "either side" who negate that they are Orthodox Catholics (i.e. acknowledge that the Orthodox Faith is universal), I have NO PART WITH THEM.

What a lot of bloviating.  What does any of this have to do with what we're discussing here?  You really love to hear yourself pontificate, don't you?
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2017, 03:30:57 PM »
So in perusing the interesting interview Mor posted for us, I found this disturbing quote:

"If you ever came across Metropolitan Hilarion, what would you tell him?"

"I would ask him to respect the work of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Vineyard of our Lord in the countries of the Far East and East Asia. In particular, to respect the work of the Metropolitan of New Zealand, Dionysios, who, as Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in India, Korea, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia, the Philippine islands, and Hong Kong, despite his old age, toured, built and continued to build Orthodox parishes in these countries."

Now, the Orthodox Church of Japan is specifically under the Omophorion of the Moscow Patriarchate and has been since the OCA was granted autocephaly by the MP in a Tomos unrecognized by the EP.  The OCA previously had been in charge of the autonomous Church of Japan, and before the OCA governed it post-WWII, its origins lie primarily in Russian missionary activities.

The Church of Japan is an autonomous, canonical church under the Omophorion of the Moscow Patriarchate, much like the Ukrainian Orthodox Church or the Latvian Orthodox Church.

The Metropolis of Korea undeniably has reasons to be annoyed with the Moscow Patriarchate, although most of these involve ROCOR, and it seems an evident fact of ecclesiastical Realpolitik that ROCOR seems to feel a right to have its own parishes wherever the Russian diaspora is present.  Conversely, the EP has a history of intruding in historically Russian ecclesiastical territory: the very unpleasant schism in the Church of Estonia comes immediately to mind. 

In reading the article, however, I felt stronfly sympathetic towards the Metropolis of Korea until I read this response ro a hypothetical dialogue between their Metropolitan and Metropolitan Hilarion, specifically because there is no logic in asking ROCOR to respect historic mission fields and missionary churches set up in Asian countries by the EP, while concurrently asking them to also support the EP's presence in Japan, which is historically Russian Orthodox and is presently an autonomous part of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Respect is really a two-way street, and what we have here is simply a testament to the unpleasant reality of the very unfortunate and counterproductive enmity between Moscow and Constantinople.

I think the EO should consider following the example of the OO, a state in which overlapping jurisdictions have become de rigeur.  For example, all of the Oriental churches have an overlapping presence in Jerusalem, the Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox churches have historically overlapped in much of their territory, outside of Armenia and a few predominantly Syriac/Assyrian regions (I don't recall hearing of any Armenian churches in the Nineveh Plains or Tur Abdin, although if these existed I would not be suprised at all).   

Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon sets out a noble ideal, but it seems to not be practicable at present; that canon was written at a time when the Roman  church was considered (at Chalcedon) to be a paragon of Orthodoxy, a time in which the Lands of the Barbarians could be unambiguously identified as Central and Northern Europe, East and West, the places from which various relatively primitive tribes of Germanic, Slavic and related origin hailed from, and from which they tended to mount attacks against the crumbling Roman Empire to the South.

The ideal of one bishop per city should be a goal, in the long term, but at present, due to practical issues of pastoral care and the diversity of both the diaspora and the missionary communities, I don't see it quite working outside of the homeland of each specific Orthodox church.
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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2017, 04:18:54 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

So are you trying to say that the EO Pope of Alexandria is the legit Pope because of Chalcedon or merely because the Coptic Pope - who also has a residence in Alexandria - spends more of his time in Cairo?  Either way, your post seems an attempt to delegitimize the actual Orthodox Pope of Alexandria in his own country in favor of the Greek bishop.

I meant precisely what I said.  "...your post seems..." (insert rolleyes).  That you read into things is your problem, not mine.  I don't owe you any explanation, since everything that I said is factually true.  Yet, for the sake of other readers, I will reply.

The Coptic Pope's actual See (Seat) is in Cairo, and has not been in Alexandria for nearly 1000 years.  That is a fact.  That your emotions get in the way is your problem, not mine.  In a united local church that agrees in Orthodox theology, I have little doubt (and little objection) that the now "Coptic Patriarch" would hold the See, but NOT because he holds it now, but because he has been de facto the archpastor of so many in Egypt itself.  BTW, how can he be Pope and Patriarch of "all Africa" when Ethiopia and Eritria have their own Patriarch?  I expect you to answer completely and in complete accordance with Orthodox ecclesiology.   

I have shown your Pope great respect.  Since you have challenged me I expect a complete and succinct ecclesiological defense from you.  I expect it to be perfect and without error, at all.     

BTW I don't believe in the modern "EO" and "OO" monikers.  I am NOT an "EASTERN ORTHODOX" (which by the way is bad grammar), but an Orthodox Christian from front to back.  BTW, even though I love those who subscribe as "EO", I challenge them as well to defend why they describe themselves as such.  I will add that the Orthodox Faith is Catholic, and that any of those from "either side" who negate that they are Orthodox Catholics (i.e. acknowledge that the Orthodox Faith is universal), I have NO PART WITH THEM.

On this point, I should like to make a few observations:

1. Whereas the primary residence of the Coptic Pope is in Cairo, there is an official patriarchal Cathedral of St. Mark in Alexandria.  This situation is actually much like that of the Roman Pope.  The official cathedral church of the Roman Catholic Pope, even before the Great Schism of 1054, has always been the Basillica of St. John Lateran, and the Lateran Palace likewise has always been the official residence.  In practice, however, since the end of the Avignon schism, the de facto cathedral of the Pope is St. Peter's Basillica, and the de facto residence is the Vatican.  This was largely for military reasons, in that the Vatican Hill was easier to fortify and defend than the Lateran. 

Interestingly, since the 1929 concordat between Italy and the Vatican City State, the Lateran Palace and St. John Lateran, as well as St. Mary Major, and St. Paul Outside the Walls, are extraterritorial posessions of the Vatican.  After the fall of the Papal States, the era in which the Popes were called "Prisoners in the Vatican," security concerns made routine use of St. John Lateran impractical; these obviously no longer apply, but because the Vatican City is set up to accomodate the throngs of pilgrims and tourists, it remains the de facto seat of Papal power (although, if memory serves, Pope Paul XII did use St. John Lateran when dogmatizing certain RC beliefs regarding the Assumption/Dormition ex cathedra in 1952).

2. Regarding the title of the Pope, the Coptic Pope remains the Pope and Patriarch of All Africa except in those churches in Africa to which the Coptic Church granted autocephaly.  These were until very recently part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, to the point that many Western scholars still call the Ethiopian Orthodox church Coptic; indeed the word is much better known and more frequently encountered when reading about Ethiopian Orthodoxy than the equally important "Tewahedo."

The Armenian Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin, or the Armenian Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia, or the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, did not have the canonical authority to grant autocephaly to the Ethiopian and Eritrean church.  In the case of Eritrea, the Coptic Pope granted autocephaly to the local church which was previously a part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church; this caused some considerable discord between the Ethiopian and Coptic churches, but communion has since been restored.  One could interpret that action however, by Pope Shenouda, as having assumed that the Coptic Church still posessed some form of authority over the Ethiopian Church which it previously granted autocephaly to; of course, a more realistic assesment would simply conclude the Coptic Pope was trying to avoid a scenario where the Eritrean Church self-declared autocephaly and ruptured communion between itself and every other OO church, and existed in a non-canonical state equivalent to the Macedonian Orthodox Church. 

3. Also on the subject of titles, whereas the Greek Orthodox Pope of Alexandria is referred to as His Beatitude, the Coptic Pope is referred to as His Holiness.  Conversely, however, the Coptic Pope is not referred to as the 13th Apostle and Judge of the Universe.

4.  Since we have mentioned Antioch, it must be stressed that neither the Syriac nor the Greek Orthodox (Antiochian) Patriarchs of Antioch actually reside in Antioch.  There is virtually no Christian presence in that city.  The most recent liturgical celebration I can recall occurring there involved HH Ignatius Zakka Iwas, and was in a cave used by the Apostles in antiquity, around 2000.  Both Patriarchs are officially based in Damascus, although for practical reasons of security, both have spent quite a bit of time in Beirut over the course of the horrible civil war in Syria.

5.  The bulk of the Alexandrian Greeks, the ethnically Greek population which represent the core of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, live downriver from Cairo, in Alexandria and other cities of Northern Egypt; predominantly, Alexandria.   Conversely, the center of the Coptic population in Egypt is Cairo.  However, there are substantial numbers of Copts in Alexandria; I would not be surprised if they outnumbered the Alexandrian Greeks.  The Coptic Pope does retain a cathedral church of St. Mark in Alexandria where he occasionally celebrates the liturgy, and he is the bishop of that city.

6.  Technically, historically, whereas the Phanar is considered a part of modern day Istanbul or Ottoman Constantinople, it was a suburb of the ancient Byzantine capital.  It is utterly lamentable that the Ecumenical Patriarch resides in the Phanar and not in the Bucoleon Palace, and has as his cathedral the small church of St. George instead of the majestic Hagia Sophia.  One can make a case that His All Holiness has been exiled out of Constantinople proper (just as, strictly speaking, in London, Westminster Abbey is located outside the City of London, in what is now called the City of Westminster).

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Father H

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2017, 09:55:59 PM »
Really?  I did not give you insulting comments like calling you "catty" and the like.  But you feel the need to hurl insults.  That is the end of our conversation unless you would like to apologize. 

Sheesh, ask a simple question, get a catty answer.

I meant precisely what I said. 

Then you're off base.

"...your post seems..." (insert rolleyes). 

Rolling your eyes?  What are you gonna do next?  Snap your fingers and rock your neck?

That you read into things is your problem, not mine. 

Yeah, your problem is apparently arrogance and cattiness.  No one is "reading into" anything.  I simply asked you to clarify your position and you got all snippy about it.

I don't owe you any explanation, since everything that I said is factually true.

The conclusion you're drawing - that the Pope of Alexandria isn't the Pope of Alexandria because of where he "actually resides" - doesn't make sense, especially since you're a member of a Church that makes bishops in England bishops of cities in Greece they've never set foot in and since your Patriarch of Antioch actually resides in Damascus, and since there hasn't been a city named Constantinople to be a bishop of for quite some time.  So let's not play semantic games.

Yet, for the sake of other readers, I will reply.

The poor "other readers".

The Coptic Pope's actual See (Seat) is in Cairo, and has not been in Alexandria for nearly 1000 years.  That is a fact.

Which doesn't mean he isn't the Orthodox bishop of Alexandria.  Since our churches are not presently in communion, we cannot at present say that there is another bishop in the city to rival his claim.

That your emotions get in the way is your problem, not mine.

We've already determined what your problem is.  There was no emotion involved in my post.  You're the one rolling your eyes and getting all Real Housewives of Atlanta about it.  I was just asking you to clarify a piece of writing with (at that time) unclear implications.

In a united local church that agrees in Orthodox theology, I have little doubt (and little objection) that the now "Coptic Patriarch" would hold the See, but NOT because he holds it now, but because he has been de facto the archpastor of so many in Egypt itself. 

He holds it now.  And "Coptic" is nowhere in his official title.  Don't get all emotional about it.

BTW, how can he be Pope and Patriarch of "all Africa" when Ethiopia and Eritria have their own Patriarch?  I expect you to answer completely and in complete accordance with Orthodox ecclesiology.   

"You expect". lol  I expect you to spell Eritrea right and not carry on like a pompous blowhard who thinks it's his place to give people orders.  Oops!  Anyway, the Patriarchs of Ethiopia and Eritrea afford the Patriarch of Alexandria primacy of honor on the continent since it was traditionally considered to be a part of his See.  Though autocephalous, they still consider themselves to be a part of the See of St. Mark.  Ask them.

I have shown your Pope great respect. 

No you haven't.  You've made it out as if he is - at present - a pretender to the title of "bishop of Alexandria".

Since you have challenged me I expect a complete and succinct ecclesiological defense from you.  I expect it to be perfect and without error, at all.   

"Since you have challenged me..."  "I expect..."  Get over yourself, D'Artagnan.

BTW I don't believe in the modern "EO" and "OO" monikers.  I am NOT an "EASTERN ORTHODOX" (which by the way is bad grammar), but an Orthodox Christian from front to back.  BTW, even though I love those who subscribe as "EO", I challenge them as well to defend why they describe themselves as such.  I will add that the Orthodox Faith is Catholic, and that any of those from "either side" who negate that they are Orthodox Catholics (i.e. acknowledge that the Orthodox Faith is universal), I have NO PART WITH THEM.

What a lot of bloviating.  What does any of this have to do with what we're discussing here?  You really love to hear yourself pontificate, don't you?

Offline Father H

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2017, 10:13:23 PM »
We probably shouldn't have one in Alexandria either.

What?  The Patriarch and Pope of Alexandria (there is no "Greek" title in the Greek language) has been the sole actual resident bishop of Alexandria since 1047AD--Almost 1000 years.  The Coptic Pope may also hold the title, but he has, de facto, been bishop of Cairo for nearly a millennium.  Now the Coptic Pope has the bigger flock in Egypt itself, which commands respect, but there is actually only one who has been consistently the bishop of Alexandria, and that is the "Greek" Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

So are you trying to say that the EO Pope of Alexandria is the legit Pope because of Chalcedon or merely because the Coptic Pope - who also has a residence in Alexandria - spends more of his time in Cairo?  Either way, your post seems an attempt to delegitimize the actual Orthodox Pope of Alexandria in his own country in favor of the Greek bishop.

I meant precisely what I said.  "...your post seems..." (insert rolleyes).  That you read into things is your problem, not mine.  I don't owe you any explanation, since everything that I said is factually true.  Yet, for the sake of other readers, I will reply.

The Coptic Pope's actual See (Seat) is in Cairo, and has not been in Alexandria for nearly 1000 years.  That is a fact.  That your emotions get in the way is your problem, not mine.  In a united local church that agrees in Orthodox theology, I have little doubt (and little objection) that the now "Coptic Patriarch" would hold the See, but NOT because he holds it now, but because he has been de facto the archpastor of so many in Egypt itself.  BTW, how can he be Pope and Patriarch of "all Africa" when Ethiopia and Eritria have their own Patriarch?  I expect you to answer completely and in complete accordance with Orthodox ecclesiology.   

I have shown your Pope great respect.  Since you have challenged me I expect a complete and succinct ecclesiological defense from you.  I expect it to be perfect and without error, at all.     

BTW I don't believe in the modern "EO" and "OO" monikers.  I am NOT an "EASTERN ORTHODOX" (which by the way is bad grammar), but an Orthodox Christian from front to back.  BTW, even though I love those who subscribe as "EO", I challenge them as well to defend why they describe themselves as such.  I will add that the Orthodox Faith is Catholic, and that any of those from "either side" who negate that they are Orthodox Catholics (i.e. acknowledge that the Orthodox Faith is universal), I have NO PART WITH THEM.

On this point, I should like to make a few observations:

1. Whereas the primary residence of the Coptic Pope is in Cairo, there is an official patriarchal Cathedral of St. Mark in Alexandria.  This situation is actually much like that of the Roman Pope.  The official cathedral church of the Roman Catholic Pope, even before the Great Schism of 1054, has always been the Basillica of St. John Lateran, and the Lateran Palace likewise has always been the official residence.  In practice, however, since the end of the Avignon schism, the de facto cathedral of the Pope is St. Peter's Basillica, and the de facto residence is the Vatican.  This was largely for military reasons, in that the Vatican Hill was easier to fortify and defend than the Lateran. 

Interestingly, since the 1929 concordat between Italy and the Vatican City State, the Lateran Palace and St. John Lateran, as well as St. Mary Major, and St. Paul Outside the Walls, are extraterritorial posessions of the Vatican.  After the fall of the Papal States, the era in which the Popes were called "Prisoners in the Vatican," security concerns made routine use of St. John Lateran impractical; these obviously no longer apply, but because the Vatican City is set up to accomodate the throngs of pilgrims and tourists, it remains the de facto seat of Papal power (although, if memory serves, Pope Paul XII did use St. John Lateran when dogmatizing certain RC beliefs regarding the Assumption/Dormition ex cathedra in 1952).

2. Regarding the title of the Pope, the Coptic Pope remains the Pope and Patriarch of All Africa except in those churches in Africa to which the Coptic Church granted autocephaly.  These were until very recently part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, to the point that many Western scholars still call the Ethiopian Orthodox church Coptic; indeed the word is much better known and more frequently encountered when reading about Ethiopian Orthodoxy than the equally important "Tewahedo."

The Armenian Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin, or the Armenian Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia, or the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, did not have the canonical authority to grant autocephaly to the Ethiopian and Eritrean church.  In the case of Eritrea, the Coptic Pope granted autocephaly to the local church which was previously a part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church; this caused some considerable discord between the Ethiopian and Coptic churches, but communion has since been restored.  One could interpret that action however, by Pope Shenouda, as having assumed that the Coptic Church still posessed some form of authority over the Ethiopian Church which it previously granted autocephaly to; of course, a more realistic assesment would simply conclude the Coptic Pope was trying to avoid a scenario where the Eritrean Church self-declared autocephaly and ruptured communion between itself and every other OO church, and existed in a non-canonical state equivalent to the Macedonian Orthodox Church. 

3. Also on the subject of titles, whereas the Greek Orthodox Pope of Alexandria is referred to as His Beatitude, the Coptic Pope is referred to as His Holiness.  Conversely, however, the Coptic Pope is not referred to as the 13th Apostle and Judge of the Universe.

4.  Since we have mentioned Antioch, it must be stressed that neither the Syriac nor the Greek Orthodox (Antiochian) Patriarchs of Antioch actually reside in Antioch.  There is virtually no Christian presence in that city.  The most recent liturgical celebration I can recall occurring there involved HH Ignatius Zakka Iwas, and was in a cave used by the Apostles in antiquity, around 2000.  Both Patriarchs are officially based in Damascus, although for practical reasons of security, both have spent quite a bit of time in Beirut over the course of the horrible civil war in Syria.

5.  The bulk of the Alexandrian Greeks, the ethnically Greek population which represent the core of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, live downriver from Cairo, in Alexandria and other cities of Northern Egypt; predominantly, Alexandria.   Conversely, the center of the Coptic population in Egypt is Cairo.  However, there are substantial numbers of Copts in Alexandria; I would not be surprised if they outnumbered the Alexandrian Greeks.  The Coptic Pope does retain a cathedral church of St. Mark in Alexandria where he occasionally celebrates the liturgy, and he is the bishop of that city.

6.  Technically, historically, whereas the Phanar is considered a part of modern day Istanbul or Ottoman Constantinople, it was a suburb of the ancient Byzantine capital.  It is utterly lamentable that the Ecumenical Patriarch resides in the Phanar and not in the Bucoleon Palace, and has as his cathedral the small church of St. George instead of the majestic Hagia Sophia.  One can make a case that His All Holiness has been exiled out of Constantinople proper (just as, strictly speaking, in London, Westminster Abbey is located outside the City of London, in what is now called the City of Westminster).

Right, but the issue is that no one can be bishop of two metropolesi by Orthodox canon law.  Obviously there are violations of this in the "new lands", but that does not make it "legitimate".  By Orthodox ecclesiology there is only one real cathedral per bishop (including a patriarch).  The issue with Antioch is that they were forced out by Ottoman rule (so does not apply to Egypt).  I think you missed my point about the titles. 

Offline Alpha60

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2017, 10:35:21 PM »
Father H,

To my knowledge no such canon law exists in the Coptic Orthodox Church.  It must be remembered that canon law is rite-specific.

Furthermore, by that argument, you might just as well have to say that the regional Metropolia and dioceses in the Eastern Orthodox diaspora are uncanonical.   

You would also I think have to declare Metropolitan Hilarion of ROCOR, who I much admire, to be uncanonical, since his jurisdiction extends across multiple Metropolises, sometimes overlapping other jurisdictions, for example, in Korea (a major complaint of the article quoted in the OP), and furthermore, his additional role as the governor of the ROCOR Western Rite causes his jurisdiction to overlap with that of other bishops in his own synod.

Furthermore, I think you would have to declare His Beatitude the Greek Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa uncanonical, given his default jurisdiction over the entire continent, which spans multiple cities.

I would further argue that your interpretation of what a "Metropolis" is is in error; bishops with the title of Metropolitan were and are traditionally senior prelates who are the presiding bishops of entire territories, regions, or autonomous churches.  For example, the Metropolitans who preside over the autonomous Orthodox churches of the Ukraine, Japan, Latvia, and so on.  For that matter, the senior prelate of the Polish Orthodox Church is a Metropolitan.  The Metropolitan is the presiding bishop in an ecclesiastical province, or, historically, one of the provinces of the Roman Empire.

It seems to me you are trying to apply a hypothetical Byzantine ideal of ecclesiology to the Coptic Orthodox Church, which at any rate is not Byzantine.  The Oriental Orthodox communion has overlapping dioceses, overlapping jurisdictions, general bishops, and Patriarchal vicars, all of which represent departures from the ideal of one bishop per city; these variations exist partially for reasons of historical neccessity and partially due to ecclesiastical politics, but within the context of the Oriental Orthodox Church, they are canonical.  Remember that Canon 28 of Chalcedon does not in any sense apply to us. 

By the way, just out of curiosity, what jurisdiction are you with?
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2017, 10:50:47 PM »
Really?  I did not give you insulting comments like calling you "catty" and the like.  But you feel the need to hurl insults.  That is the end of our conversation unless you would like to apologize. 

In other words, you can dish out the highhanded nastiness, but you can't take it.  Remember, I simply asked you a polite question in my first post, and you attempted to upbraid me for "challenging you" as if you were some authority beyond question.  Maybe you should keep a civil tongue in your head next time.  Meanwhile, the hypocrisy of your ridiculous position is manifest for all reading to see, and it seems you have no answer for the counters I've offered to the points you've raised.  To contend that the Coptic Pope is not the legitimate Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria -especially by way of the tortured logic you're attempting - is beyond ludicrous.
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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2017, 10:59:35 PM »
I don't think the canonical legitimacy of either the Coptic or the Greek Orthodox Popes of Alexandria can be reasonably questioned by anyone who claims to reject the continued EO-OO schism, which Fr. H to his credit stressed a rejection of previously.  Rather, the only basis for rejecting one or the other would be if one was an absolute hardliner on the question of Chalcedon, denying the Orthodoxy of the EO or OO church (depending on what side of the fence one was on).

I am not convinced that in the event of EO-OO reunion, which I pray for fervently, that we even need to merge the ancient Patriarchates, given the difference of liturgical rite that exists and the varying size of the laity and the number of bishops of these churches.

Each OO church has a bishop in Jerusalem called a Patriarch, and I think this is reasonable enough, so for example, with EO-OO reunion the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem would simply be numbered alomg with his Armenian, Syriac, Coptic and Ethiopian counterparts.  In the event of Orthodox-RC reunion (which I also pray for, but a prerequisite is the Roman church getting control over its liturgy and suppressing abuses like Charismatic worship, and I also pray for that), we would add the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem to the group.  The same model could be applied to the ancient sees of Antioch and Alexandria.
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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2017, 12:10:15 AM »
I don't think the canonical legitimacy of either the Coptic or the Greek Orthodox Popes of Alexandria can be reasonably questioned by anyone who claims to reject the continued EO-OO schism, which Fr. H to his credit stressed a rejection of previously.  Rather, the only basis for rejecting one or the other would be if one was an absolute hardliner on the question of Chalcedon, denying the Orthodoxy of the EO or OO church (depending on what side of the fence one was on).

I am not convinced that in the event of EO-OO reunion, which I pray for fervently, that we even need to merge the ancient Patriarchates, given the difference of liturgical rite that exists and the varying size of the laity and the number of bishops of these churches.

Each OO church has a bishop in Jerusalem called a Patriarch, and I think this is reasonable enough, so for example, with EO-OO reunion the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem would simply be numbered alomg with his Armenian, Syriac, Coptic and Ethiopian counterparts.  In the event of Orthodox-RC reunion (which I also pray for, but a prerequisite is the Roman church getting control over its liturgy and suppressing abuses like Charismatic worship, and I also pray for that), we would add the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem to the group.  The same model could be applied to the ancient sees of Antioch and Alexandria.
The faithful in Jerusalem are a very small community, though. Maybe the overlapping EC jurisdictions across the Middle East would form a better example.
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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2017, 11:38:25 AM »
To my knowledge no such canon law exists in the Coptic Orthodox Church.  It must be remembered that canon law is rite-specific.

Nope.
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Re: “What is at stake is not me, but the Church of Christ”
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2017, 05:59:25 AM »
Please, everybody, remember that the section "Christian News" is not for polemics. Futhermore, such harsh language being used toward other participants of the discussion (I mean in this case especially Antonious Nikolas and Father H) cannot be tolerated. This time you will not receive any warning points, but if any of you continue such track of writing, you will be penalised.

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