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Offline Agabus

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Better know a Protestant
« on: August 09, 2017, 12:41:22 PM »
A thread in which we discuss (charitably) the former groups with which we were associated to help others who don't have ties with them understand them better. It doesn't have to be comprehensive, and non-Orthodox posters are welcome to contribute.

I will start: SOUTHERN BAPTISTS

Origin: For a brief period in the mid-19th century, many of the Baptist congregations in the United states belonged to a single national convention, which existed primarily to help fund and organize mission work. Slavery was a contentious issue, but the convention had a neutral stance on the matter until the 1840s, when a southern state-level convention appointed a slaveholder to be a missionary and the mission board run by the national convention refused to see the appointment through since it violated that neutrality and rules about taking "servants" to the mission field. Churches in the southern states also felt that the home mission efforts of the convention were underrepresented in the South, and southerners generally favored a slightly different structure to the convention's organization (one they more or less maintain to this day). The southerners formed a new convention in 1845. The convention formally apologized for its origins in the slavery controversy in 1995.

Polity: Congregational, and varies somewhat from church to church; congregations generally operate on a system in which the pastor and deacons functionally operate as ruling elders, though all decisions are ultimately approved by the laity.

Many people mistake the "C" in SBC for standing for "church," but it rather stands for "Southern Baptist Convention." The convention technically only exists when it is called, though it has a number of standing committees, commissions and other institutions (e.g. The International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board) that exist year-round. The convention also operates a publishing house, B&H Publishing Group (formerly Broadman & Holman) and the Lifeway Christian Resources chain (formerly the Sunday School Board), and has officially published a translation of the Protestant biblical canon, the Christian Standard Bible.

Churches become members of the national convention by giving to the cooperative program. They can also be members of state level conventions and local associations, but do not have to be a member of one to be a member of the other. The conventions and associations can disassociate member churches, but such moves are rare and usually in cases of extreme theological or social variance.

Orders: Pastor and deacons, though the deacons typically serve in roles like making sure the heat is turned on, the floors are swept, the doors are locked and special events are staffed, and have no inherent liturgical or teaching function. Per the convention's statement of faith, the pastorate is reserved for men, though more moderate congregations may have deaconesses; they aren't common, however. (The church of my youth had one, but she wasn't ordained by our congregation, having instead come from a northern church, and she didn't have much of a role outside of maybe visiting other older ladies.)

Many churches will have an appointed "minister of music" for leading congregational worship. While this person is often ordained to the Gospel ministry, they are not necessarily required to be so.

Within my own observed experience (I can't speak to congregations outside my former sphere), ordination to the pastorate is a two-step process. In the first step, a candidate is recognized by a local congregation as potentially having a call on their life, and as such is granted a license to preach. After a time of proving, the candidate is ordained by laying on of hands by men who have been ordained to the pastorate or the diaconate.

Deacons are ordained by laying on of hands.

While some ministers will be styled as "the Reverend," for the most part pastors and deacons are greeted as "Brother" (e.g. Bro. Dan). This may have some root in the historic Baptist disdain for clericalism, but at this point in history it has come to function as a de facto clerical title.

Worship style:
Varies based on congregation, ranging from old-time fundamentalist services, early 20th century revivalist, lingering bad 1980s "contemporary," "blended" (meaning a mix of the contemporary and older styles) to general present day evangelical rock show. The variance is usually tied to the rural or urban origins of the church, as well as the timing of its founding.

Confession:
The Baptist Faith and Message.  Unlike the Westminster Confession of the Presbyterians or the 39 Articles of Anglican yesteryear, it's not meant to be a confessional document, per se, but a general statement about what member churches believe. The first version was adopted in the 1920s to revise the New Hampshire Confession of Faith while specifically addressing the public debate  about evolution, and subsequent revisions have added more theological language and/or social stances as the convention has deemed fit. Since it's not a binding confession for member churches, you might hear moderates who describe themselves as adherents to the 1963 BF&M rather than the 2000 version, which was revised under the conservative Adrian Rodgers.

Notable moments in convention history: During the 1970s, a group of conservative activists within the convention worked to start stacking certain committees, which in turn made recommendations for appointments within the convention's standing bodies, in order to turn what they saw as a moderate-liberal social and theological drift in the convention. Once the group gained power, many of the convention-affiliated seminaries and other institutions had a purge of those whose theologies didn't align with the orchestrators. This is commonly known as the "conservative resurgence," and effectively created the SBC of today (including the BFM 2000).

Soteriology:
Generally speaking, most of the faithful believe in blend of Arminianism and Calvinism, in which they believe in free will but also in once-saved-always-saved.

Salvation is considered a single event in time, prior to which  a sinner was lost and after which they are saved. Though many evangelists will note that the so-called "sinner's prayer" is not required for salvation, it is considered a useful and the usual mechanism by which salvation is achieved.

Apostates are considered to have never been saved in the first place.

Sacraments: Southern Baptists don't believe in sacraments, but consider baptism and the eucharist — commonly called the "Lord's Supper" — to be ordinances, that is, divinely instituted but symbolic services that the faithful are to observe.

Baptism is performed by single or triple immersion depending on the minister, though it is typically single immersion, and is considered a external declaration of an inward faith. Baptisms performed on infants or by any mode other than immersion are not considered valid, and believers are told to seek rebaptism. All baptisms are in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Because it is considered symbolic, some Baptists will be baptized more than once to declare a rededication of their faith, or — in some instances — that they had not been truly saved at the time of their previous baptism but have since been. A happily practicing Christian being rebaptized while visiting the Holy Land is not unheard of.

The Lord's Supper is not typically performed on a daily or weekly basis; monthly or quarterly observances are more common. The elements are blessed in a simple service (the minister often reciting St. Paul's passage about the eucharist from 1 Corinthians) and distributed among the laity by passing trays with small bread and individual cups of grape juice to be consumed. The "body" may be leavened or unleavened bread or even a cracker of some sort, and the "blood" is typically grape juice because many SBC churches are hardline teetotalers.

Other focuses:
SBC churches tend to value community and general Christian education, and will have Sunday School before Sunday morning services, general education classes before Sunday evening services and mid-week prayer meetings. Like other evangelical groups, larger churches will also host Bible studies for different cohorts (youth, singles, etc.) throughout the week. Bible memorization is also a priority in the congregations skewing toward the fundamentalist/revivalist end of the spectrum.

The churches take up annual offerings for local, North American and foreign missions. The North American offering is collected at Easter, and is named after the missionary Annie Armstrong, while the foreign missions offering is taken at Christmas, and is named in memory of missionary Lottie Moon.

Other quirks:
Some SBC churches don't consider themselves Protestants, noting that they are not magisterial Protestants; others hold the belief of the Landmark Movement, which claims a strand of like-minded Baptist believers have always existed throughout history since the apostles, even if they were at times small and persecuted sects. (The sects through which they trace this lineage don't always line up with Baptists, but that's an aside for another day.)

Some also hold to the notion that the Authorized Version of the Bible of 1611, commonly known as the King James Version, is the only appropriate English translation of the Bible for believers to read. Some argue this on manuscript textual grounds, while others argue that modern translations are corrupted by ideology that the KJV is not.

Things they claim are special to them but nearly every church does: Potlucks with delicious but bad-for-you food.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:24:29 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 01:06:36 PM »

Soteriology:
Generally speaking, most of the faithful believe in blend of classical Armenianism

If only this were true!
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2017, 01:21:29 PM »
CHRISTIAN REFORMED CHURCH OF NORTH AMERICA

Origin: Established by Dutch Reformed immigrants in the 1800s. Centered mainly among immigrant communities in places like West Michigan and Iowa.  Later waves of immigration brought CRC folks to California, Washington and elsewhere.  Large post-WWII Dutch immigration to Canada grew the churches there.

Polity: Presbyterian/Synodal.  The Synod meets yearly made up of delegates from regions known as "classis". Each "classis" is made up of a number of congregations united by geography. Each congregation is ruled by a council made up up of elders and deacons who are elected by professing members of the church to a term of service. The pastor is the "teaching elder" but not the "president" of the council which usually is led by an older elder.

Orders: Pastor, elder and deacons. Since the mid-1990s these roles have been open to women but many congregations and even some classis do not ordain women to these roles. Pastors are examined on the classis level after graduating from the denominational seminary, Calvin Seminary in Grand Rapids, MI. (Candidates can receive an education at other approved institutions but must spend some time at Calvin).

Elders and Deacons are nominated by congregations and voted on at congregational meetings where professing members of the church elect. Candidates who are chosen are then required to sign a "covenant of office bearers" testifying to their agreement with the confessions of the church.  There is a "laying on of hands" prayer that commissions these servants of the church but this is not considered "sacramental" as is "holy orders" in RC/EO.

Worship Style: Varies from congregation to congregation.  Traditionally CRCNA folks were commited to exclusive Pslamody during the service and reserved hymn signing to other occasions.  In recent decades "contemporary" worship has become prevalent. The denomination's Book of Order requires certain aspects of worship be fulfilled but these prescriptions are not always followed, for example, the weekly confession and psalm of response.

Confession: Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed (w/ filioque) and Athanasian Creed.  Three Forms of Unity: Heidelberg Catechism, Canons of Dordt, Belgic Confession of Faith. (https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions).  There is also a modern confession known as the Belhar Confession that has a minor status.

Notable Moments: 1857: Schism with Reformed Church of America (RCA). 1875: Opens Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI. 1996: Schism leading to the formation of United Reformed Churches of North America (URCNA) after CRC synod approved female ordination.

Soteriology: Calvinist

Sacraments: Baptism administered to infants of professing members.  Communion to all those in attendance who are believers, fencing varies by church.  A small number of CRC churches practice paedocommunion, norm is to require some kind of "profession of faith".  In past decades this would occur in teenage years but this is changing. Traditionally communion happened quarterly, some churches commune monthy or even weekly - it varies by congregation as does mode.  Traditionally the elders pass around tiny squares of bread in plates and tiny cups of juice (some CRC may use wine, not sure) or the communicants filing forward to take a piece of bread and dunk it in a cup of juice.  There are other ways of doing it - not one mode is "normative" anymore.

Focuses: Christian Education (number of prominent Christian thinkers, see below), Kuyperian engagement with culture, politics, the arts, and society.

Notable Members:

Quote
    David Apol, General Council, United States Office of Government Ethics
    Herman Baker, founder, Baker Publishing Group
    Louis Berkhof, 1873–1957, prominent Reformed theologian of the 20th century
    Dirk Booy, vice president, World Vision
    Emily R. Brink, hymnist and professor of church music and worship
    Scott Brown, U.S. Senator from Massachusetts
    Sietze Buning, poet, the pen name of Stanley Wiersma (1930–1986)
    Richard DeVos, businessman, co-founder of Amway
    Betsy DeVos, US Secretary of Education
    Calvin B. DeWitt, environmentalist and co-founder of the Evangelical Environmental Network
    William B. Eerdmans, founder, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company
    Vern Ehlers, U.S. Representative from Michigan
    William K. Frankena, 1908–1994, philosopher, University of Michigan
    Paul B. Henry, U.S. Representative from Michigan
    Herman Hoeksema, (1886-1965) Reformed theologian who helped found the Protestant Reformed Churches in America
    Shirley B. Hoogstra, president of the Council for Christian Colleges & Universities
    Bill Huizenga, U.S. Representative from Michigan
    Dean Koldenhoven, former mayor of Palos Heights, Illinois; Profile in Courage award recipient
    Richard Krejcir, pastor, theologian, author and director of Into Thy Word
    Frederick Manfred, author of Westerns, the pen name of Feike Feikema (1912–1994)
    Manuel Ortiz, pastor, missionary and scholar
    Richard and Joan Ostling, authors and journalists
    Alvin Plantinga, philosopher, University of Notre Dame
    Cornelius Plantinga, theologian, author, president of Calvin Theological Seminary from 2002-2011
    Michael Rea, philosopher, University of Notre Dame
    Jacoba Beuker Robbert, co-founder of Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services
    Lewis Smedes, author, ethicist, and theologian (1921–2002)
    Calvin Seerveld, philosopher and theologian
    The Staal brothers, professional hockey players Eric Staal, Marc Staal, Jordan Staal, and Jared Staal
    Steven R. Timmermans, psychologist, author, former president of Trinity Christian College, executive director of CRC 2013–present
    Jay Van Andel, businessman, co-founder of Amway
    Cornelius Van Til, (1895–1987) Reformed theologian, (raised CRC and attended denominational schools before joining the Orthodox Presbyterian Church)
    Johanna Veenstra (1894-1933), missionary to Nigeria
    Geerhardus Vos (1862–1949), theologian, "Father of Reformed Biblical Theology"
    John Witvliet, director of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship
    Nicholas Wolterstorff, philosopher, Yale University
    Pat and Bernie Zondervan, founders, Zondervan Publishing
    Jerry Zandstra, conservative activist

I'll add the philosopher James KA Smith to the list as he is currently affiliated with the CRC as a professor at Calvin College.



« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 01:23:14 PM by Hinterlander »

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2017, 01:22:29 PM »

Soteriology:
Generally speaking, most of the faithful believe in blend of classical Armenianism

If only this were true!

Growing up Calvinist, it was also funny how often people suffered the Arminian/Armenian mixup.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Better know a Protestant (or else....)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2017, 01:28:18 PM »
others hold the belief of the Landmark Movement, which claims a strand of like-minded Baptist believers have always existed throughout history since the apostles, even if they were at times small and persecuted sects.
Some even claim that John the Baptist was a Baptist.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Better know a Protestant (or else....)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 02:13:41 PM »
others hold the belief of the Landmark Movement, which claims a strand of like-minded Baptist believers have always existed throughout history since the apostles, even if they were at times small and persecuted sects.
Some even claim that John the Baptist was a Baptist.

he's named after what he is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTLYris4kJU
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 02:19:53 PM »

Soteriology:
Generally speaking, most of the faithful believe in blend of classical Armenianism

If only this were true!

Growing up Calvinist, it was also funny how often people suffered the Arminian/Armenian mixup.

LOL, this is what I get for trusting spellcheck for anything.

I used to make fun of people for the same mistake.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:20:52 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Agabus

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Re: Better know a Protestant (or else....)
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2017, 02:25:29 PM »
others hold the belief of the Landmark Movement, which claims a strand of like-minded Baptist believers have always existed throughout history since the apostles, even if they were at times small and persecuted sects.
Some even claim that John the Baptist was a Baptist.

I have actually heard an evangelist say, "He was John the Baptist, not John the Catholic or John the Methodist."
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline William T

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 04:53:25 PM »
This is the best thing that I stumbled on to keep track of all this stuff and translate it a bit for an Orthodox:

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy

I know the history, and (sometimes very bizarre) basic theology of the 1500's splits, and some high German academic stuff from the 1800's...but it's tough to keep track of the whole thing in the present tense.

The priest I believe is a Protestant convert, my hunch is there are a lot of Protestant/ generic cultural Protestant secularists on this message board.  This podcast may be a good 101 bridge.  This podcast reenforced something  I've learned over the years:  people of a Protestant culture hate it when you use a reflective Orthodox-ish response to something and say "that's Arianism, marcionism, Manichean, Nestorian, etc"  or even when you use some old pre-socratic philosopher you thought was over and done with even before the time of Christ, and they aren't too big on history (but HUGE on historicism or a kind of odd literalism)*.  So the way I tend to filter things and rank things is like punching a brick wall sometimes.  It is a very hard framework for me to overcome just to lay down a 101 groundwork.  I think this podcast helps a bit though.


*honestly, I don't think some Protestant types like it when you say things like "so you are basically a Calvanist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc".
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 04:58:57 PM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 05:03:58 PM »
*honestly, I don't think some Protestant types like it when you say things like "so you are basically a Calvanist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc".
They see that as dilly-dallying. "So, you are basically a Protestant" gets right to the point.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline William T

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 05:10:01 PM »
*honestly, I don't think some Protestant types like it when you say things like "so you are basically a Calvanist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc".
They see that as dilly-dallying. "So, you are basically a Protestant" gets right to the point.

To many people, they would hate that as well: "I'm just spiritual man, I find labels really oppressive".  I would be OK with that answer for someone who was just a generic Western secularist and me saying something like that would probably be obnoxious and uncalled for unless they specifically asked for some kind of genealogy; but it seems really odd  to me when someone "accepts Jesus as their personal Savior".

« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 05:11:25 PM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Better know a Protestant (or else....)
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 05:11:54 PM »
others hold the belief of the Landmark Movement, which claims a strand of like-minded Baptist believers have always existed throughout history since the apostles, even if they were at times small and persecuted sects.
Some even claim that John the Baptist was a Baptist.

I have actually heard an evangelist say, "He was John the Baptist, not John the Catholic or John the Methodist."

 I've heard that a zillion times.  BTW, I do still enjoy listening to Dr. Charles Stanley and old Billy Graham sermons from time to time.  I cut my religious teeth on those giants.
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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 05:22:22 PM »
I would really like someone to tackle Calvinism if they have the time...
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 05:31:55 PM »
I would really like someone to tackle Calvinism if they have the time...

Done.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Better know a Protestant (or else....)
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 06:06:23 PM »
others hold the belief of the Landmark Movement, which claims a strand of like-minded Baptist believers have always existed throughout history since the apostles, even if they were at times small and persecuted sects.
Some even claim that John the Baptist was a Baptist.

I have actually heard an evangelist say, "He was John the Baptist, not John the Catholic or John the Methodist."

A priest I know likes to say St. John the Baptizer, although I'm pretty sure he's not trying to prevent people from thinking St. John belonged to some Protestant sect.
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Online RobS

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 09:46:36 PM »
I would really like someone to tackle Calvinism if they have the time...

Done.
Lol love you buddy.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 11:14:37 AM »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2017, 08:22:37 AM »
That is very misleading

Lets suppose that are two ships one orange sinking and one blue doing great.
Its like asking passengers which ship you want to be orange or blue while keeping silent that the orange one is sinking. It's very misleading.

Protestantism is the sinking ship because it may not give people eternal life  thus letting possibly them being sink in death.

Without mentioning that protestantism is possibly letting people having not life in them or possibly letting them be dead this is misleading in all the descriptions above.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2017, 10:46:18 AM »
That is very misleading

Lets suppose that are two ships one orange sinking and one blue doing great.
Its like asking passengers which ship you want to be orange or blue while keeping silent that the orange one is sinking. It's very misleading.

Protestantism is the sinking ship because it may not give people eternal life  thus letting possibly them being sink in death.

Without mentioning that protestantism is possibly letting people having not life in them or possibly letting them be dead this is misleading in all the descriptions above.

Try again.

I started this thread because I'd seen several posters made incorrect statements about very basic things about what my former group taught. Getting the correct information out there is important so that if one is involved in a conversation with a member of one of these groups, they understand what a person means when they use a word but understand it in a different way than Orthodoxy. It is not about approval. It is about basic approachment.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline David Young

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 04:47:04 PM »
Protestantism ... may not give people eternal life

Quite so. Without being irritatingly pedantic, only God, by his Spirit, gives eternal life, and it comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Some Protestants have eternal life, some do not; some Orthodox have eternal life, some do not. Some are Protestant or Orthodox by tradition and in name, but lack personal faith; some have both the name and the faith. Our Lord said, "Ye must be born again."
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 04:47:54 PM by David Young »
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2017, 12:12:13 AM »
Protestantism ... may not give people eternal life

Quite so. Without being irritatingly pedantic, only God, by his Spirit, gives eternal life, and it comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Some Protestants have eternal life, some do not; some Orthodox have eternal life, some do not. Some are Protestant or Orthodox by tradition and in name, but lack personal faith; some have both the name and the faith. Our Lord said, "Ye must be born again."

Amen. Plenty of Orthodox admit this much. Pasadi needs to learn to be a bit more careful with words.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2017, 07:01:31 PM »
David Young
 Without being irritatingly pedantic, only God, by his Spirit, gives eternal life, and it comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

There may be a contradiction here. David says eternal life comes though faitrh and Jesus says eternal life comes through his blood and flesh.

David is a man, Jesus is God.

I believe in Jesus.
Jesus said Truly Truly, that is take attention. He did not say if you don't have faith you don't have life it says if you don't drink Jesus blood and eat his flesh you have no life in you.
Many protestant denominations are proudly claiming that there is no blood of Jesus in their Church thus people need to come to Orthodox Church that has in Holy Communion blood and flesh of Jesus so people can get eternal life .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcL4mkNfzM

God put many gifts including eternal life in his Church. Even if God said the gates of Hell will not overcome the Church Protestants guided by the fallen angel said the gates of Hell have overcoime the Church nd made revolution. After the revolution was succesfull they said we need to pick from all the gifts brought by God what we want. We pick only Bible that is Sola Scriptura and possibly leave eternal life outside because we are not educated and have no clue what we are doing. Do you want to lose eternal life because a bunch of uneducated people made a revolution IN THE CHURCHvv and possibly left out eternal life and many other gifts God put in his Church?

So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

David is time to become orthodox priest.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 07:03:21 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2017, 07:04:51 PM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2017, 09:32:22 PM »
David Young
 Without being irritatingly pedantic, only God, by his Spirit, gives eternal life, and it comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

There may be a contradiction here. David says eternal life comes though faitrh and Jesus says eternal life comes through his blood and flesh.

David is a man, Jesus is God.

I believe in Jesus.
Jesus said Truly Truly, that is take attention. He did not say if you don't have faith you don't have life it says if you don't drink Jesus blood and eat his flesh you have no life in you.
Many protestant denominations are proudly claiming that there is no blood of Jesus in their Church thus people need to come to Orthodox Church that has in Holy Communion blood and flesh of Jesus so people can get eternal life .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcL4mkNfzM

God put many gifts including eternal life in his Church. Even if God said the gates of Hell will not overcome the Church Protestants guided by the fallen angel said the gates of Hell have overcoime the Church nd made revolution. After the revolution was succesfull they said we need to pick from all the gifts brought by God what we want. We pick only Bible that is Sola Scriptura and possibly leave eternal life outside because we are not educated and have no clue what we are doing. Do you want to lose eternal life because a bunch of uneducated people made a revolution IN THE CHURCHvv and possibly left out eternal life and many other gifts God put in his Church?

So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

David is time to become orthodox priest.

Oh go play with some agiasma. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2017, 09:57:26 PM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.


« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 09:58:15 PM by pasadi97 »
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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2017, 10:59:46 PM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2017, 11:19:33 PM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

As tho Protestants wrote the Bible ... ::)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline michaelus

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2017, 11:32:35 PM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

As tho Protestants wrote the Bible ... ::)

"A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.'" - St. Anthony The Great

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2017, 11:36:55 PM »
If you read the Chick tracts on the KJV, that's the narrative, with the addition that the Catholics were imperial secret police going back to the Apostles' day, and included the Fathers.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2017, 11:46:31 PM »
If you read the Chick tracts on the KJV, that's the narrative, with the addition that the Catholics were imperial secret police going back to the Apostles' day, and included the Fathers.

Wow.   :o  I have never read a Chick tract, and that's probably just as well.
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 12:02:50 AM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

As tho Protestants wrote the Bible ... ::)

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. Christians in Protestant traditions have read, understood and taught the Gospel of John and have so for hundreds of years. Pasadi97 merely citing of that verse doesn't go very far in convincing anyone of anything much less serving as an occasion to meet a Christian unlike them.

People who are living, worshiping and serving in Protestant church communities aren't there because they chose Door A "PROTESTANTISM" instead of Door B "HOLY ORTHODOXY".

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2017, 12:03:45 AM »
If you read the Chick tracts on the KJV, that's the narrative, with the addition that the Catholics were imperial secret police going back to the Apostles' day, and included the Fathers.

Wow.   :o  I have never read a Chick tract, and that's probably just as well.

Chick tracts reflect a particular band of American Protestantism that is much derided, lampooned and bemoaned in Protestant circles.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2017, 12:23:39 AM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

As tho Protestants wrote the Bible ... ::)

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. Christians in Protestant traditions have read, understood and taught the Gospel of John and have so for hundreds of years. Pasadi97 merely citing of that verse doesn't go very far in convincing anyone of anything much less serving as an occasion to meet a Christian unlike them.

People who are living, worshiping and serving in Protestant church communities aren't there because they chose Door A "PROTESTANTISM" instead of Door B "HOLY ORTHODOXY".

While your last sentence is quite true, the rest of your reply makes no sense at all. The plain word of the Bible can be and is denied, lied about, and distorted all the time. Because someone has a Bible  does not mean he is unable to teach heresy. That's absurd. And can you not see that what the Church teaches and the Protestants teach about this matter are diametrically opposed? Someone must be wrong.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2017, 12:47:28 AM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

As tho Protestants wrote the Bible ... ::)

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. Christians in Protestant traditions have read, understood and taught the Gospel of John and have so for hundreds of years. Pasadi97 merely citing of that verse doesn't go very far in convincing anyone of anything much less serving as an occasion to meet a Christian unlike them.

People who are living, worshiping and serving in Protestant church communities aren't there because they chose Door A "PROTESTANTISM" instead of Door B "HOLY ORTHODOXY".

While your last sentence is quite true, the rest of your reply makes no sense at all. The plain word of the Bible can be and is denied, lied about, and distorted all the time. Because someone has a Bible  does not mean he is unable to teach heresy. That's absurd. And can you not see that what the Church teaches and the Protestants teach about this matter are diametrically opposed? Someone must be wrong.

I'll try again, I apologize.

Protestants have the Gospel of John and have read, understood and taught passages in a heterodox manner that differs considerably from the "plain" reading of certain verses, like the one Pasadi cited.  Merely citing that verse  is not going to get you anywhere (as if Protestants weren't aware of these verses) - especially if in citing the passage you admit a complete inability to understand why a Protestant would have a different understanding of the same verse.


Offline pasadi97

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2017, 12:54:05 AM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

I understand them very well. Because they, the Protestant Churches,  possibly don't have blood and flesh of Jesus they possibly don't offer life and eternal life leaving people without life in them. This is very grave.
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2017, 01:21:14 AM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

As tho Protestants wrote the Bible ... ::)

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. Christians in Protestant traditions have read, understood and taught the Gospel of John and have so for hundreds of years. Pasadi97 merely citing of that verse doesn't go very far in convincing anyone of anything much less serving as an occasion to meet a Christian unlike them.

People who are living, worshiping and serving in Protestant church communities aren't there because they chose Door A "PROTESTANTISM" instead of Door B "HOLY ORTHODOXY".

While your last sentence is quite true, the rest of your reply makes no sense at all. The plain word of the Bible can be and is denied, lied about, and distorted all the time. Because someone has a Bible  does not mean he is unable to teach heresy. That's absurd. And can you not see that what the Church teaches and the Protestants teach about this matter are diametrically opposed? Someone must be wrong.

I'll try again, I apologize.

Protestants have the Gospel of John and have read, understood and taught passages in a heterodox manner that differs considerably from the "plain" reading of certain verses, like the one Pasadi cited.  Merely citing that verse  is not going to get you anywhere (as if Protestants weren't aware of these verses) - especially if in citing the passage you admit a complete inability to understand why a Protestant would have a different understanding of the same verse.

No, we don't understand or admit their interpretation. That's a non-negotiable. Pasadi is perfectly in the right when he says we take in Christ himself when we partake of the Eucharistic Gifts, and that those who refuse and defy the Gifts deny to Christ this entry. The passage has been understood this way from the very earliest Christian writings that exist.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Agabus

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2017, 02:22:26 PM »



Ironically, this is a Mormon illustration.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2017, 02:52:34 PM »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Online LivenotoneviL

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2017, 02:58:10 PM »
If you read the Chick tracts on the KJV, that's the narrative, with the addition that the Catholics were imperial secret police going back to the Apostles' day, and included the Fathers.

Admittedly, in a certain way I am glad that Chick made the comics he did, as I think the Chick tracts really show some of the problems of Sola Scriptura.

Despite admittedly being correct, to a certain extent (even though I think in these seldom instances it comes across as too extreme and not really convincing or elaborated upon), in a couple of instances:





And other times:










I will say it is extremely ironic he was an iconoclast in almost every sense of the word, but his "Pagan in origin" artwork of Christ, the angels, and demons is what made him memorable.


May God have mercy on his soul. I hope that he was truly earnest despite the harm he had done by using ignorance and fear tactics to convert people to his own interpretation of the Bible.

When I read these bottom three comics, I thought they were honestly parodies. They aren't.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 03:08:57 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2017, 05:49:32 PM »
lol
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2017, 06:49:17 PM »
Group: Church of God (Anderson, IN)

(note: my experience with this group was in c. 1995-2001, and what follows is based on those long-ago experiences but also at times verified with Google/wiki/official website)

Summary: American denomination, follower of the the Wesleyan holiness tradition, and not to be confused with other denominations of the same name (like the much larger southern one which is charismatic). Started in the late 19th century with a focus on living a holy life, being separate from corrupted society, and following strict moral guidelines; for some examples: evils like tea and coffee were to be avoided, worldly adornments like jewelry and neckties were condemned, and extreme pacifism was the only biblically-acceptable position. These strictures loosened over time, or sometimes became more developed and nuanced (as happened around the time of the World Wars with their pacifist beliefs). Today they are a mostly generic Protestant denomination, holding to mostly generic Evangelical positions (centrality of Bible, a widespread--if not always very deep--missionary/evangelistic spirit, morality rooted in 18th-early 20th century Protestantism which they mistake for "traditional Christian morals," etc.)  They said they were "a movement and not a denomination" more than a century before that became in vogue, so they have that.

Parishes: Congregational organization. I said above that they were generic evangelical, but to be fair there seems to be more (cultural/political/tonal) variety between parishes that you'd expect based on that description... or at least compared to the stereotypical "evangelical" parish. This variety is pretty much acknowledged, and extends to their more centralized institutions (they have a half dozen colleges/universities).

Orders: Typical evangelical stuff--pastor, worship team leader, youth minister, etc... nothing like bishops/priests/deacons. They're very much against "man made traditions," which they see in traditional RC/EO Church organization. So far as I know there are no celebrity pastors or revered figures, or mega-churches, though the original founder (Warner) is still read. As for female pastors, they claim on their website that: "From the earliest days of the Church of God movement, we’ve celebrated the ministry leadership of outstanding women clergy and continue to do so." However, I know from personal experience that this is overstating things.   

Worship style: Varies from parish to parish, with everything from traditional a cappella using an old hymn book, to singing with an accompanying guitar or organ, to modern (usually sappy) Christian pop choruses using guitars+drums+whatever. There often seems to be an attempt to balance spontaneity and "good order," but most humans fall into habits and routine and they are no different.

Sacraments: Practice baptism and communion as symbolic acts (in the more modern sense of the term). They use grape juice and whatever, and the frequency of communion differs from place to place. Most people get baptized after participating in an altar call, 'walking the Roman road,' etc.  For whatever historical reasons they really got into the concept of foot washing (done by all members of a parish who attend the event), and it's treated with pretty much the same gravity as communion and baptism.

Theology: Very little, at least from what I saw/remember, has to do with traditional Christological or even Trinitarian theological discussions, except in university classrooms (and, probably, online discussion forums). Salvation is through grace alone, and justification is by faith, confessing that Jesus is Lord, etc... all that biblical stuff. However, they are not OSAS proponents, and definitely believe in a 'sanctification' concept much closer to Orthodoxy, or at least a C.S. Lewis type, than many Protestants. I don't think that it exactly matches something like the EO theology of image/likeness, but it'd probably close enough to be a decent starting point for discussions. Eschatologically I'm not sure when it comes to general beliefs, though one place I was at had a rabidly anti-Catholic/Orthodox pov on such things, seeing Rome as the whore of Babylon and Orthodoxy as ... her daughter? (I think)  I think other places were less extreme, though a general anti-Catholic sentiment was the norm.

Evangelism: Considering the overall size of it, there's a decent emphasis on evangelism and missions. Despite originating as an isolation-y group in mid-west America in the 1880s, today 74% of the adherents of the group are outside the U.S. Wiki says they have 1.17 million adherents worldwide, the official site says 887 thousand. Using the latter number as a base, 37% of their adherents are in Africa, 25% in Asia, and 11% in the Caribbean and Latin America. They teach skills useful in missionary work at their schools, and have a 'village' in Florida designed to simulate environments found in underdeveloped nations so students can learn how to use technology available in such places, how to deal with life without all the creature comforts, and so on. Due to the strong international presence the students also come into contact with many non-Americans who come to the U.S. for school; and, at least from what I remember, most of the students who come here for University then return to their country of origin.

Other quirks: I'll end with an anecdote: one of the strongest memories I have of a COG parish is when a minister ripped pages out of a Bible during a sermon. Obviously in an Orthodox Church this would be sacrilege, but it was an interesting point in that context, and a point (if not method) that I think most Orthodox would agree with: that the Bibles people hold in their hands are not to be mistaken for Jesus himself, the Gospel itself, etc., and that people shouldn't get so caught up in ink and paper that they forget about being doers. In essence, that reading/studying the Bible is the beginning of a Christian life rather than the goal and fullness of one. Their theology was fairly sola-scriptura-ish, so it was shocking and was meant to be so, made even moreso because the guy wasn't ordinarily someone who did such a performative and odd thing.

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2017, 06:50:06 PM »
That's the joke.

I think the point is general enough that you can get the joke without knowing the origin. I certainly did  8)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2017, 07:09:01 PM »
That's the joke.

I think the point is general enough that you can get the joke without knowing the origin. I certainly did  8)

Yes. Right. I guess I meant that is one part of the joke.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2017, 07:17:14 PM »
So people need to come to Eastern Orthodox Church that have all gifts from God including eternal life.

Do you judge all those who have not received the Holy Eucharist in a Canonical Orthodox Church to lack Eternal Life and be subject to the Second Death?

Did you read what Jesus had to say?

Jesus
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day.

Fallen angel makes many protestant denominations claim there is no blood and flesh of Jesus in their Church only symbols, so what people are doing there in these churches beats me, why there are people in these Churches beats me.

Thank you for at least going so far as to admit they are Churches even if you don't understand them.  :P

I think it is a little more complicated than simply citing this particular verse.  That verse is in every Protestant Bible I know.

P

As tho Protestants wrote the Bible ... ::)

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. Christians in Protestant traditions have read, understood and taught the Gospel of John and have so for hundreds of years. Pasadi97 merely citing of that verse doesn't go very far in convincing anyone of anything much less serving as an occasion to meet a Christian unlike them.

People who are living, worshiping and serving in Protestant church communities aren't there because they chose Door A "PROTESTANTISM" instead of Door B "HOLY ORTHODOXY".

While your last sentence is quite true, the rest of your reply makes no sense at all. The plain word of the Bible can be and is denied, lied about, and distorted all the time. Because someone has a Bible  does not mean he is unable to teach heresy. That's absurd. And can you not see that what the Church teaches and the Protestants teach about this matter are diametrically opposed? Someone must be wrong.

I'll try again, I apologize.

Protestants have the Gospel of John and have read, understood and taught passages in a heterodox manner that differs considerably from the "plain" reading of certain verses, like the one Pasadi cited.  Merely citing that verse  is not going to get you anywhere (as if Protestants weren't aware of these verses) - especially if in citing the passage you admit a complete inability to understand why a Protestant would have a different understanding of the same verse.

No, we don't understand or admit their interpretation. That's a non-negotiable. Pasadi is perfectly in the right when he says we take in Christ himself when we partake of the Eucharistic Gifts, and that those who refuse and defy the Gifts deny to Christ this entry. The passage has been understood this way from the very earliest Christian writings that exist.

In your mind does "understand" only mean "agreement"? 

I am using understand in terms of "be aware of". 

Orthodox can be aware of the details of different Protestant interpretations without "admitting" them as true - isn't this sort of the point of this thread (and larger sub-forum)?

The gist of Pasadi's post "Protestants are apostates led by fallen angels and it beats me why they don't simply accept the Orthodox understanding of this verse" is not much of a contribution.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Better know a Protestant
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2017, 07:24:18 PM »
Why would you think we are "not aware" of the materialist explaining-away of the passage? No, you seem to want us to admit it's subjectively valid, or it's arguable, or something like that. Pasadi's argument is straightforward: To partake of the Divine Gifts in faith is to accept Christ. The Protestant denial of this and replacement of it with novel "get saved" doctrines is an impostor and does not helppeople truly to accept Christ. His method may be unsympathetic or controversial, but his message is Orthodox.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy