Author Topic: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"  (Read 447 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« on: August 03, 2017, 04:11:48 PM »
Creepy stuff.

Quote
Largely behind the scenes, a group of mostly self-proclaimed “apostles,” leading ministries from North Carolina to Southern California, has attracted millions of followers with promises of direct access to God through signs and wonders.

Their movement, which Christerson and Flory called “Independent Network Charismatic” or “INC” Christianity, has become one of the fastest-growing faith groups in the United States. Apostles like Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle, Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, and Ché Ahn claim millions of followers. They’re also aided by an army of fellow ministers who fall under their “spiritual covering.”

Many of these apostles run megachurches, including Bethel Church in Redding California, HRock Church in Pasadena, and the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City. But their real power lies in their innovative approach to selling faith. They’ve combined multi-level marketing, Pentecostal signs and wonders, and post-millennial optimism to connect directly with millions of spiritual customers. That allows them to reap millions in donations, conference fees, and book and DVD sales. And because these INC apostles claim to get direction straight from God, they operate with almost no oversight.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/august-web-only/bethel-church-international-house-prayer-prophets-apostles.html
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline William T

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2017, 04:26:10 PM »
I just did a skim of this article.  To me this just seems like a par for the course thing that is to be expected in American religion.  Is there something about this you want to point out or find peculiarly different?  I'm not any expert in this kind of thing, but to my mind just translates this as "ultrazealous and opportunistic spiritual fad "X" is up and comming and ex-ultrazealous  opportunistic spiritual fad "y" is on the wane".

Since college, everytime I hear the word "prophetic" alarm bells start going off.  That's not just privy to the "Christ Haunted South" kind of folk Christianity either, that very much plays very much into the academic trends that comes out of American universities.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:29:45 PM by William T »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2017, 04:32:06 PM »
I'm sure it's nothing really new. I don't have any direct experience of this kind of religious culture, so it just fills me with horror and disgust reading about any of its incarnations.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2017, 04:33:54 PM »
I'm sure it's nothing really new. I don't have any direct experience of this kind of religious culture, so it just fills me with horror and disgust reading about any of its incarnations.
+1
God bless!

Offline William T

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2017, 04:36:12 PM »
I'm sure it's nothing really new. I don't have any direct experience of this kind of religious culture, so it just fills me with horror and disgust reading about any of its incarnations.

Yeah, I've only got tertiary experience with this kind of thing.  It's big enough, and I've been around the block enough where it has had some minor interactions with my life. Even in cities like Toledo, Detroit and Chicgao there is a presence and you probably know someone involved in things like this.   But I just broadly filter all these things the same way....probably the same way these guys would filter me in as a superstitious, dead ritual, tradition of men, "whore of Babylon" papist along with Anglicans and Catholics.

Is this stuff virtually unknown in Pennsylvania (I think that's where you are from)?  I would imagine you guys would be similar.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:37:59 PM by William T »

Offline Agabus

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2017, 05:05:14 PM »
This stuff is all over the South. I know several people personally harmed by it.
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THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 07:18:36 PM »
I'm sure it's nothing really new. I don't have any direct experience of this kind of religious culture, so it just fills me with horror and disgust reading about any of its incarnations.

Yeah, I've only got tertiary experience with this kind of thing.  It's big enough, and I've been around the block enough where it has had some minor interactions with my life. Even in cities like Toledo, Detroit and Chicgao there is a presence and you probably know someone involved in things like this.   But I just broadly filter all these things the same way....probably the same way these guys would filter me in as a superstitious, dead ritual, tradition of men, "whore of Babylon" papist along with Anglicans and Catholics.

Is this stuff virtually unknown in Pennsylvania (I think that's where you are from)?  I would imagine you guys would be similar.
If it is, it isn't well known. We have our fair share of mega churches and whatnot, but I don't really know any pentacostal/prosperity gospel/charismatic type people. I'm rather grateful for that tbh.
God bless!

Offline William T

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2017, 07:26:59 PM »
I'm sure it's nothing really new. I don't have any direct experience of this kind of religious culture, so it just fills me with horror and disgust reading about any of its incarnations.

Yeah, I've only got tertiary experience with this kind of thing.  It's big enough, and I've been around the block enough where it has had some minor interactions with my life. Even in cities like Toledo, Detroit and Chicgao there is a presence and you probably know someone involved in things like this.   But I just broadly filter all these things the same way....probably the same way these guys would filter me in as a superstitious, dead ritual, tradition of men, "whore of Babylon" papist along with Anglicans and Catholics.

Is this stuff virtually unknown in Pennsylvania (I think that's where you are from)?  I would imagine you guys would be similar.
If it is, it isn't well known. We have our fair share of mega churches and whatnot, but I don't really know any pentacostal/prosperity gospel/charismatic type people. I'm rather grateful for that tbh.

Maybe I lump all that kind of thing together.  My first hand experience with any of this evangelical stuff involved one of my (atheist) friends converting to the dark side and starting some youth Church.  I got suckered and conned into two services (and this was when I was at my least religious), and I think I labled the prayer as overly emotional and "charismatic".  Maybe that's a bit different, or just a million times more low key than what goes on down south.  Like I said, I tend to muddle all of that stuff together as they probably do with me and the Catholics.

BTW Ohio had a famous Mega Church eye blasphemy we called "Big Butter Jesus":



that got struck by lightning and reveled it was the terminator:



For the record when he was an atheist I always thought the kid was a bit of a con, and when he converted he seemed to be an even bigger one.  He was kewt when he was an honest con, after that, I shortly quit seeing him, it was unsettling and uncomfortable.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 07:30:58 PM by William T »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 07:29:38 PM »
HAHAHAHA!!!
God bless!

Offline William T

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 07:47:11 PM »
This stuff is all over the South. I know several people personally harmed by it.

I know a few very devout Christians who moved down South and are really influenced by it, to the point where they may do Bible studies on Sunday, or worship Saturday, or even dislike icons (but like really watered down paintings of "buddy Jesus"), I know some who even listen to some Mormon preachers.

Up north, I think that effects a most Orthodox in more minor indirect ways, and usually on the second generation.  Usually because people listen to "radio preachers" because that is what is most available, or go to a non Catholic friends church because it's more convenient and more entertaining than an Orthodox service.  Some second generation Arabs in my Church even feel uncomfortable kissing Icons for example. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 07:49:50 PM by William T »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2017, 08:15:23 PM »
Creepy stuff.

Quote
Largely behind the scenes, a group of mostly self-proclaimed “apostles,” leading ministries from North Carolina to Southern California, has attracted millions of followers with promises of direct access to God through signs and wonders.

Their movement, which Christerson and Flory called “Independent Network Charismatic” or “INC” Christianity, has become one of the fastest-growing faith groups in the United States. Apostles like Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle, Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, and Ché Ahn claim millions of followers. They’re also aided by an army of fellow ministers who fall under their “spiritual covering.”

Many of these apostles run megachurches, including Bethel Church in Redding California, HRock Church in Pasadena, and the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City. But their real power lies in their innovative approach to selling faith. They’ve combined multi-level marketing, Pentecostal signs and wonders, and post-millennial optimism to connect directly with millions of spiritual customers. That allows them to reap millions in donations, conference fees, and book and DVD sales. And because these INC apostles claim to get direction straight from God, they operate with almost no oversight.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/august-web-only/bethel-church-international-house-prayer-prophets-apostles.html

If the franchise idea was as huge a hit as it's been for a dour brand like the Independent Fundamental Baptists (IFB), then, yeah, I can believe INC will blow up nationwide. I mean, you sign up, you pay your dues and get your certificate or whatever, you rent a hole in a strip mall, you shout Hallelujah and watch the income roll in. Plus, you get to lay down whatever Christian law you want on your family and acquaintances. Big appeal in the South.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 10:56:27 PM »
I'm sure it's nothing really new. I don't have any direct experience of this kind of religious culture, so it just fills me with horror and disgust reading about any of its incarnations.

Yeah, I've only got tertiary experience with this kind of thing.  It's big enough, and I've been around the block enough where it has had some minor interactions with my life. Even in cities like Toledo, Detroit and Chicgao there is a presence and you probably know someone involved in things like this.   But I just broadly filter all these things the same way....probably the same way these guys would filter me in as a superstitious, dead ritual, tradition of men, "whore of Babylon" papist along with Anglicans and Catholics.

Is this stuff virtually unknown in Pennsylvania (I think that's where you are from)?  I would imagine you guys would be similar.

I'm pretty sure it's around. I've seen advertisements for such things. I don't think it gets too big though because generally people are very awkward about religion around here, even religious people.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 11:20:41 PM »
Quote
Their movement, which Christerson and Flory called “Independent Network Charismatic” or “INC”...

The truth hidden in plain sight:

Independent Network Charismatic, Inc.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 11:22:14 PM by Sharbel »
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline Daniel2:47

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2017, 07:44:47 AM »
I have encountered a few evangelicals who have become involved or at least influenced by this movement (New Apostolic Reformation). The influence of the movement within charismatic circles is definitely on the up. One person I knew was travelling back and forth from England to Bill Johnson's "School of Supernatural Ministry" (a sort of hands-on seminary) for 3 or 4 years. To be honest, it all seemed very cultish and manifested itself with an absolute devotion to these "anointed" figures and unquestioning defence of everything they do. With regards to the supposed signs, I was told that the people going there weren't seeking the various manifestations of gold dust or angel feathers floating down from the roof, golden teeth, and the more normative Toronto Blessing style slain-in-the-spirit emotionalism. I was told people are going there to seek God and these signs and wonders just happen. Everything I heard though seems to contradict this, since this lady was obsessed with signs and wonders, prophetic dreams and visions and supernatural manifestations. It is very far from the sober spirituality of Orthodoxy, and very similar to the counterfeit faith that Fr Seraphim Rose described in his brilliant Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2017, 04:01:51 PM »
Creepy stuff.

Quote
Largely behind the scenes, a group of mostly self-proclaimed “apostles,” leading ministries from North Carolina to Southern California, has attracted millions of followers with promises of direct access to God through signs and wonders.

Their movement, which Christerson and Flory called “Independent Network Charismatic” or “INC” Christianity, has become one of the fastest-growing faith groups in the United States. Apostles like Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle, Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, and Ché Ahn claim millions of followers. They’re also aided by an army of fellow ministers who fall under their “spiritual covering.”

Many of these apostles run megachurches, including Bethel Church in Redding California, HRock Church in Pasadena, and the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City. But their real power lies in their innovative approach to selling faith. They’ve combined multi-level marketing, Pentecostal signs and wonders, and post-millennial optimism to connect directly with millions of spiritual customers. That allows them to reap millions in donations, conference fees, and book and DVD sales. And because these INC apostles claim to get direction straight from God, they operate with almost no oversight.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/august-web-only/bethel-church-international-house-prayer-prophets-apostles.html

If the franchise idea was as huge a hit as it's been for a dour brand like the Independent Fundamental Baptists (IFB), then, yeah, I can believe INC will blow up nationwide. I mean, you sign up, you pay your dues and get your certificate or whatever, you rent a hole in a strip mall, you shout Hallelujah and watch the income roll in. Plus, you get to lay down whatever Christian law you want on your family and acquaintances. Big appeal in the South.

Set it up as a ministry for clean addicts, the cash can really roll in. The best kind of signs-and-wonders seeker is someone on a dry drunk.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline William T

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2017, 04:44:25 PM »
Creepy stuff.

Quote
Largely behind the scenes, a group of mostly self-proclaimed “apostles,” leading ministries from North Carolina to Southern California, has attracted millions of followers with promises of direct access to God through signs and wonders.

Their movement, which Christerson and Flory called “Independent Network Charismatic” or “INC” Christianity, has become one of the fastest-growing faith groups in the United States. Apostles like Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle, Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, and Ché Ahn claim millions of followers. They’re also aided by an army of fellow ministers who fall under their “spiritual covering.”

Many of these apostles run megachurches, including Bethel Church in Redding California, HRock Church in Pasadena, and the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City. But their real power lies in their innovative approach to selling faith. They’ve combined multi-level marketing, Pentecostal signs and wonders, and post-millennial optimism to connect directly with millions of spiritual customers. That allows them to reap millions in donations, conference fees, and book and DVD sales. And because these INC apostles claim to get direction straight from God, they operate with almost no oversight.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/august-web-only/bethel-church-international-house-prayer-prophets-apostles.html

If the franchise idea was as huge a hit as it's been for a dour brand like the Independent Fundamental Baptists (IFB), then, yeah, I can believe INC will blow up nationwide. I mean, you sign up, you pay your dues and get your certificate or whatever, you rent a hole in a strip mall, you shout Hallelujah and watch the income roll in. Plus, you get to lay down whatever Christian law you want on your family and acquaintances. Big appeal in the South.

Set it up as a ministry for clean addicts, the cash can really roll in. The best kind of signs-and-wonders seeker is someone on a dry drunk.

That's infuriating.   I live in the Midwest if region matters .   If this is common,  do you have any advice how to combat such a thing , or look for it it's a big deal in my region (and if this is conflicting with your philosophy, I generally am fine with AA type programs)?  I'm in health care,  I know enough lawyers in the field,  and I may know enough (usually Greek , Armenian, or Arab if that matters) orthodox in the region.  PM me if you think that would be better... If this is a popular method,  it ought be fought.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 04:46:30 PM by William T »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2017, 05:14:03 PM »
When it comes to religion in America, region matters a lot.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Article on "Independent Network Charismatics"
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2017, 02:02:49 PM »
I'm sure it's nothing really new. I don't have any direct experience of this kind of religious culture, so it just fills me with horror and disgust reading about any of its incarnations.
+1

+2

Anathema to these heretics.
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