Author Topic: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life  (Read 5419 times)

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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2017, 12:44:44 AM »
I meant to build a bridge between Him and men hahaha I confused the verbs. :p He created men because He wants to share His love, His  glory, His light with us because God is love. He made the world for our glorification. For our pleasure. For our deification. He is everything for us. We don't exist without Him. He is also a "consuming fire". In fire the gold becomes brighter. The wood is burnt. So it depends on our choice how we will receive the flame of God. We commune with Him and be united with Him through His Son and in His Spirit. And if we sin we can still find our reconciliation with our Creator through His Body and Blood. We are to get dressed with that heavenly body. We are to be a trhone and temple of God. We are to participate in His glory and light. And so many other things ....
And what if I find the weight of evil now to not jusitfy him and his kingdom in his omnipotence? What if I consider NOTHING to justify Aushwitz, and that to try and make a justification of it based on future bliss and torment is not just untenable, but morally reprehensible? Because I do.
I didn't understand exactly what you said. Evil is not an existence. It is not eternal. It is just the lack of good, the lack of God. And this is due to our free will and logic. Love isn't compalsive. That 's why our Creator made us according to His image and likeness.  If He forced me to do good so how could I love Him? To have a relationship with someone you must choose it. You are not forced to do it. To become a child of God you must choose it.
I dont find heaven worth it because of things like Auschwitz.
Of course I am FORCED without a choice. Everything else is an excuse. Sure I can make the fatal mistake to stumble when I shouldnt and cause nu damnation, but he who really caused it was he who forced me in to existence and then forces me to love him for it. "No no! You have the wonderful gift of choice! You are not forceeed to love him and hos failure, you can also choose HELL, a burning fire if unending tortures. You see, God loves you so much"
What a joke. I havent found one single human who can answer my question why I should accept this absurdity when I have even agreed to be cast in to this game.

There are not tortures. This isn't the teaching of the Church of Christ. Hell is our failure to surpass the nil. If you don't want to have relationship with God then don't worship and love Him. You are free to do it. For us it is ingraditude to refuse our Maker. It is the same as if you refuse your parents that brought you into existence and brought you up. God at the Last Judgement will still embrace you out of His love but you will not be ready to feel and receive His love. This is hell. To suffer at God's presence.

"For us it is ingraditude to refuse our Maker. "

Based on what I find in Christian theology and the bible, showing ingratitude to this Maker seems like a virtue
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2017, 12:47:13 AM »
You're the one who needs to know the answer.
I already know and I also know I don't need to answer to you.

I think porter is in one of his cranky "catcher in the rye" moods right now.   Best just to let him go on until he eats his pudding cup, to settle his fussiness  or whatever it is he does until he settles him down

Yes, now you're in the right. Now you're wise. Now you're good.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2017, 12:49:04 AM »
I meant to build a bridge between Him and men hahaha I confused the verbs. :p He created men because He wants to share His love, His  glory, His light with us because God is love. He made the world for our glorification. For our pleasure. For our deification. He is everything for us. We don't exist without Him. He is also a "consuming fire". In fire the gold becomes brighter. The wood is burnt. So it depends on our choice how we will receive the flame of God. We commune with Him and be united with Him through His Son and in His Spirit. And if we sin we can still find our reconciliation with our Creator through His Body and Blood. We are to get dressed with that heavenly body. We are to be a trhone and temple of God. We are to participate in His glory and light. And so many other things ....
And what if I find the weight of evil now to not jusitfy him and his kingdom in his omnipotence? What if I consider NOTHING to justify Aushwitz, and that to try and make a justification of it based on future bliss and torment is not just untenable, but morally reprehensible? Because I do.
I didn't understand exactly what you said. Evil is not an existence. It is not eternal. It is just the lack of good, the lack of God. And this is due to our free will and logic. Love isn't compalsive. That 's why our Creator made us according to His image and likeness.  If He forced me to do good so how could I love Him? To have a relationship with someone you must choose it. You are not forced to do it. To become a child of God you must choose it.
I dont find heaven worth it because of things like Auschwitz.
Of course I am FORCED without a choice. Everything else is an excuse. Sure I can make the fatal mistake to stumble when I shouldnt and cause nu damnation, but he who really caused it was he who forced me in to existence and then forces me to love him for it. "No no! You have the wonderful gift of choice! You are not forceeed to love him and hos failure, you can also choose HELL, a burning fire if unending tortures. You see, God loves you so much"
What a joke. I havent found one single human who can answer my question why I should accept this absurdity when I have even agreed to be cast in to this game.

There are not tortures. This isn't the teaching of the Church of Christ. Hell is our failure to surpass the nil. If you don't want to have relationship with God then don't worship and love Him. You are free to do it. For us it is ingraditude to refuse our Maker. It is the same as if you refuse your parents that brought you into existence and brought you up. God at the Last Judgement will still embrace you out of His love but you will not be ready to feel and receive His love. This is hell. To suffer at God's presence.

"For us it is ingraditude to refuse our Maker. "

Based on what I find in Christian theology and the bible, showing ingratitude to this Maker seems like a virtue

Based on your perfect inability to describe and cite "Christian theology and the Bible," what "seems" to you is perfectly certain to be false.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2017, 12:52:44 AM »
Let us say I only Said one of these two things:
1. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul
2. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul because I am certain he har far more insight about the human nature and that he cm teach a man more.

Would any of these two statements make me an idolater according to you?

Yes.
One or both?

Both.
Then I consider it a very necessary thing to reject your version of Christianity. So I am as a "Christian" not allowed to prefer Kierkegaard to Paul? And you may say in your dogmaticism and uncreative spirit "No because God spoke through Paul". You are not the one to say who God can speak through. If Paul is believed to be above all else except God because he wrote some letters no one apparently understands, then how is that not the epitome of idolatry?
 What about Beethoven and Bach? Am I allowed to prefer them to this jewish epileptic?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2017, 12:56:01 AM »
Who like Beebert can make even insults uninteresting?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2017, 12:58:41 AM »
Let us say I only Said one of these two things:
1. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul
2. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul because I am certain he had far more insight about the human nature and that he can teach a man more.

Would any of these two statements make me an idolater according to you?

Yes, and it makes you an enemy of life.
Hah. If I am an enemy of life for prefering a genius to a maniac then I happily remain one, and if Paul and his mainipulative teachings can finally leave me alone, I will immediately be an enemy of life who rejoices and sings hymns to life. I ask you what I asked mor. I prefer Beethoven to all the 12 apostles put together... Idolatry?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:00:16 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #96 on: August 03, 2017, 01:07:23 AM »
So you finally stopped hitting yourself in the head with a stick, and now you hate the stick.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #97 on: August 03, 2017, 01:09:03 AM »
I can see agnosticism on what writings could be attributed to the man, Augustin, but everything else re: marcionism seems like unfounded speculation

Are you beside yourself? He puts his own name at the top of every letter. He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature. All you bright boys have one choice: serve God or serve the Father of Lies. Your problem is you imagine a third choice: serve your ego. That's a bitter laugh on you.
"He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature."

He was no Plato. That is for sure
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:12:01 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #98 on: August 03, 2017, 01:11:05 AM »
So you finally stopped hitting yourself in the head with a stick, and now you hate the stick.
Yes I realized what maniac I was and Turned Into by doing something as insane as to hitting myself in the head with a stick. The stick was Paul's writings
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #99 on: August 03, 2017, 01:12:23 AM »
I can see agnosticism on what writings could be attributed to the man, Augustin, but everything else re: marcionism seems like unfounded speculation

Are you beside yourself? He puts his own name at the top of every letter. He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature. All you bright boys have one choice: serve God or serve the Father of Lies. Your problem is you imagine a third choice: serve your ego. That's a bitter laugh on you.
"He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature."

Unique as in one of the best? Then lol

That's not what "unique" means but, yes, he was also extraordinarily gifted.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #100 on: August 03, 2017, 01:16:28 AM »
So you finally stopped hitting yourself in the head with a stick, and now you hate the stick.
Yes I realized what maniac I was and Turned Into by doing something as insane as to hitting myself in the head with a stick. The stick was Paul's writings
Exactly, but a beautiful healthy tree can grow if you plant the stick on the ground. However, you hate the very stick you used to hit yourself instead of admitting what a stupid use you made of it.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #101 on: August 03, 2017, 01:17:12 AM »
I can see agnosticism on what writings could be attributed to the man, Augustin, but everything else re: marcionism seems like unfounded speculation

Are you beside yourself? He puts his own name at the top of every letter. He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature. All you bright boys have one choice: serve God or serve the Father of Lies. Your problem is you imagine a third choice: serve your ego. That's a bitter laugh on you.
"He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature."

Unique as in one of the best? Then lol

That's not what "unique" means but, yes, he was also extraordinarily gifted.
I dont deny he was gifted. I believe Alexander the Great and Napoleon was "gifted" too. Paul was very intelligent, and that is one main reason of his success. In terms of intelligence, he probably was so far above someone like Peter that Peter didnt understand that Paul had taken the power from and over him quite immediately.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #102 on: August 03, 2017, 01:18:55 AM »
So you finally stopped hitting yourself in the head with a stick, and now you hate the stick.
Yes I realized what maniac I was and Turned Into by doing something as insane as to hitting myself in the head with a stick. The stick was Paul's writings
Exactly, but a beautiful healthy tree can grow if you plant the stick on the ground. However, you hate the very stick you used to hit yourself instead of admitting what a stupid use you made of it.
I see your analogy differently. With this stick you can only hit yourself in the head, but many are fooled in to doing it no matter the insanity of it
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #103 on: August 03, 2017, 01:21:46 AM »
THis thread is outrageous. how much crap gets promoted on this site sometimes? I know I am being mean so I will probably get banned while this crisp goes on. So ban me ban me ban me!

Oh please with the pearl clutching. You want crap that gets promoted, on the splash page last year there was this ridiculous article that argued all Orthodox must vote for Trump or they would be in opposition to Orthodox doctrine. That's worse for inquirers to see than what's posted in this thread, which shouldn't take the faithful much effort to discredit. I don't take augustin717 seriously in this thread and I have a hunch he doesn't either. beebert is currently having fun in his Nietzschean sandbox, but he'll grow out of it.

Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
Stop with your poisonous crap. Nothing is one of few honest members here.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #104 on: August 03, 2017, 01:38:53 AM »
OK, your sudden adherence to Nietzschean nihilism kind of proves what I always imagined about this kind of faith: just made up vitality to hide fear. I hope you get alright.
Of course I fear a totalitarian invisible sadist hiding and yet present everywhere who is all-powerful and ready to strike a moment no one knows and torture the majority of mankind infinitely in fire. This is Scripture. Not the love crap taught by many orthodox, that God embraces all but all cant experience his light...
Nietzsche Btw wasn't a nihilist. And I am not a Nietzschean.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:40:05 AM by beebert »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #105 on: August 03, 2017, 01:48:19 AM »
Let us say I only Said one of these two things:
1. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul
2. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul because I am certain he had far more insight about the human nature and that he can teach a man more.

Would any of these two statements make me an idolater according to you?

Yes, and it makes you an enemy of life.
Hah. If I am an enemy of life for prefering a genius to a maniac then I happily remain one, and if Paul and his mainipulative teachings can finally leave me alone, I will immediately be an enemy of life who rejoices and sings hymns to life. I ask you what I asked mor. I prefer Beethoven to all the 12 apostles put together... Idolatry?

I'm surprised you know what genius means considered how you seem to react like a 6-year old.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2017, 01:52:31 AM »
You know what Beebert...enjoy your newfound atheism.  Perhaps it's better than acting like a winey baby of how you felt you're going to hell.  Enjoy going to non-existence.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:52:48 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline William T

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2017, 02:32:23 AM »
You're the one who needs to know the answer.
I already know and I also know I don't need to answer to you.

I think porter is in one of his cranky "catcher in the rye" moods right now.   Best just to let him go on until he eats his pudding cup, to settle his fussiness  or whatever it is he does until he settles him down

Yes, now you're in the right. Now you're wise. Now you're good.

Thanks big fella! You know, you're not so bad yourself.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2017, 02:49:32 AM »
You know what Beebert...enjoy your newfound atheism.  Perhaps it's better than acting like a winey baby of how you felt you're going to hell.  Enjoy going to non-existence.
Wouldnt you prefer non-existence to an imaginable mental torture, to a nightmarish prison and terrorizing fear because you only have to wait for not death but unending torture striking you at any moment?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #109 on: August 03, 2017, 02:50:53 AM »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #110 on: August 03, 2017, 02:58:16 AM »
Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book. Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician, Paul started a political program above all else with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning, with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy, with his stressing on man's depravity. Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking. Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse. Jesus believed in the greatness of man, Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come. Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline augustin717

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #111 on: August 03, 2017, 03:09:08 AM »
Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book. Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician, Paul started a political program above all else with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning, with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy, with his stressing on man's depravity. Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking. Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse. Jesus believed in the greatness of man, Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come. Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.
  Thimoty isn't Paul's by any standard . It's a pseudographon .
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #112 on: August 03, 2017, 03:28:29 AM »
Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book. Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician, Paul started a political program above all else with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning, with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy, with his stressing on man's depravity. Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking. Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse. Jesus believed in the greatness of man, Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come. Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.
  Thimoty isn't Paul's by any standard . It's a pseudographon .
Whatever. The letters under the name of Paul is what I critizise. And the values  presented there are still similar
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #113 on: August 03, 2017, 03:34:57 AM »
Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book.

Good! Amusing that you want to offer chunks of hundreds of words as your citation, but a start.

Quote
Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician,

Where is Christ "anti-politician"?

Quote
Paul started a political program above all else

What was it?

Quote
... with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning,

What were these?

Quote
with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy,

It was St. Peter that instructed women to call their husbands "Lord" and obey them (I Peter 3:6). Yes, the man you imagine St. Paul deprived of the opportunity to implement Beebertianity"true" Christianity.

Do you really think St. Paul's instructions to women were out-of-keeping with Roman imperial mores? To be quiet in assembly, but to discuss public affairs at home; not to be busy-bodies or gadabouts; to submit to husbands and older women? Does any of this really sound "dangerously degrading" for the times? We read words very similar to some of St. Paul's as epigrams on tombs of pagan Roman women (Robert Louis Wilken in "The Christians as the Romans Saw Them"). While, on the other hand, St. Paul said to wives and husbands, Submit to one another; said to husbands, Cherish your wives as you do your own flesh, and, Give yourselves to her; said, In Christ, there is neither male nor female; said to widows, You are at full liberty to marry whom you wish; who in I Cor 11 for every male injunction gave an equal female injunction (which is his wont in any such discussion, and very remarkable). Who worked with fellow apostle Prisca whom he endears as Priscilla; worked with Lydia who had a church in her house; worked with too many deaconesses and prophetesses and patronesses to remember, but whom he himself called out thanks to by name in many letters.

Quote
with his stressing on man's depravity.

Where does he? And in what way contradicting Christ, and where does Christ say the contrary?

Quote
Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking.

Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)

Quote
Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse.

Please give examples.

Quote
Jesus believed in the greatness of man,

When did he say this?

[/quote]Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come.[/quote]

Where do you find any examples of this?

Quote
Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.

I'm not sure you know what "empathizing" means, but what examples do you have of Jesus teaching this?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #114 on: August 03, 2017, 03:39:28 AM »
I can see agnosticism on what writings could be attributed to the man, Augustin, but everything else re: marcionism seems like unfounded speculation

Are you beside yourself? He puts his own name at the top of every letter. He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature. All you bright boys have one choice: serve God or serve the Father of Lies. Your problem is you imagine a third choice: serve your ego. That's a bitter laugh on you.
"He has one of the most unique writing styles in Greek literature."

He was no Plato. That is for sure

Plato's skill was as a dramatist. It's not fair to take his letters and compare them to St. Paul's, who could turn an epistle into the most sublime and various art.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #115 on: August 03, 2017, 03:40:09 AM »
Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book. Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician, Paul started a political program above all else with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning, with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy, with his stressing on man's depravity. Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking. Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse. Jesus believed in the greatness of man, Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come. Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.
  Thimoty isn't Paul's by any standard . It's a pseudographon .

Do lies taste better when they were first in others' mouths?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #116 on: August 03, 2017, 03:55:19 AM »
Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book.

Good! Amusing that you want to offer chunks of hundreds of words as your citation, but a start.

Quote
Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician,

Where is Christ "anti-politician"?

Quote
Paul started a political program above all else

What was it?

Quote
... with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning,

What were these?

Quote
with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy,

It was St. Peter that instructed women to call their husbands "Lord" and obey them (I Peter 3:6). Yes, the man you imagine St. Paul deprived of the opportunity to implement Beebertianity"true" Christianity.

Do you really think St. Paul's instructions to women were out-of-keeping with Roman imperial mores? To be quiet in assembly, but to discuss public affairs at home; not to be busy-bodies or gadabouts; to submit to husbands and older women? Does any of this really sound "dangerously degrading" for the times? We read words very similar to some of St. Paul's as epigrams on tombs of pagan Roman women (Robert Louis Wilken in "The Christians as the Romans Saw Them"). While, on the other hand, St. Paul said to wives and husbands, Submit to one another; said to husbands, Cherish your wives as you do your own flesh, and, Give yourselves to her; said, In Christ, there is neither male nor female; said to widows, You are at full liberty to marry whom you wish; who in I Cor 11 for every male injunction gave an equal female injunction (which is his wont in any such discussion, and very remarkable). Who worked with fellow apostle Prisca whom he endears as Priscilla; worked with Lydia who had a church in her house; worked with too many deaconesses and prophetesses and patronesses to remember, but whom he himself called out thanks to by name in many letters.

Quote
with his stressing on man's depravity.

Where does he? And in what way contradicting Christ, and where does Christ say the contrary?

Quote
Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking.

Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)

Quote
Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse.

Please give examples.

Quote
Jesus believed in the greatness of man,

When did he say this?

Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come.[/quote]

Where do you find any examples of this?

Quote
Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.

I'm not sure you know what "empathizing" means, but what examples do you have of Jesus teaching this?
[/quote]

I Will soon answer. But only if you answer the previous Kierkegaard I posted plus this one. It is then impossible to believed that Kierkegaard believed Paul had any authority worth the name

"Inasmuch as I have made a critical comment upon 'the Apostle,' the following is to be noted. I am entirely within my rights, for the Apostle [Paul] is only a man....If in the teaching of the Apostle [Paul] there is found even in the slightest degree anything that can be related to what in the course of the centuries has become the sophistic which consumes all true Christianity, I must raise an outcry, lest the Sophists appeal to the Apostle. It is of great importance, especially in Protestantism, to straighten out the prodigious confusion Luther has brought about by inverting the relationship, and in effect criticizing Christ by Paul, the Master by the disciple....What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Kierkegaard’s Attack Upon ‘Christendom’
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 03:57:16 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #117 on: August 03, 2017, 04:07:55 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #118 on: August 03, 2017, 04:15:20 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
Read the rest of the quotes. You asked for some Kierkegaard. I gave it to you. And I would comtinue saying what Kierkegaard said, that "Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ", which is what Kierkegaard Said, and I would golf to this even if Kierkegaard never Said it
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:17:01 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #119 on: August 03, 2017, 04:29:33 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
I quote Kierkegaard once again:


"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther in his reformation failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ" (Kierkegaard, The Journals.)
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #120 on: August 03, 2017, 04:36:48 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
Read the rest of the quotes. You asked for some Kierkegaard. I gave it to you. And I would comtinue saying what Kierkegaard said, that "Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ", which is what Kierkegaard Said, and I would golf to this even if Kierkegaard never Said it

Please cite the quotation. It's identical to what you wrote under your own name above, and it doesn't sound like Kierkegaard's style.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #121 on: August 03, 2017, 04:48:30 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
I quote Kierkegaard once again:


"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther in his reformation failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ" (Kierkegaard, The Journals.)

Now the man's journals, huh? I wonder if you have any idea what you're missing by skulking around in tertiary sources, footnotes, and journals. Keeping in mind that Kierkegaard was only converted to Christ late in life, and spent years writing ironically under pseudonyms on a variety of subjects, fastening on no fixed view of life but mostly content to display a greater cleverness than Hegel on subjects, still I think -- as I've told you before -- reading his 'Philosophical Fragments' and 'Unscientific Postscript' -- his mature, quite-nearly Christian philosophical works -- and they are not very long and very accessible -- has the potential to change your life and silence your questions.

But to address the quotation: St. Paul did not draw attention away from "imitating Christ" -- this is the man who wrote so famously and musically,

μιμηταί μου
γίνεσθε
καθὼς κἀγὼ
Χριστοῦ.

Mimics of me
be ye
in just the way also I
the Christ.

Mr. Kierkegaard is drudging at that unnecessary task, the recovery of the "early church," and ironically imitating his adversary Dr. Luther, since by attacking him as "inauthentic" he doubles down on Dr. Luther's own game. You and I are not Lutheran, certainly not harassed by corrupt Lutheran church bureaucrats in Victorian Denmark, and so by your leave we'll leave Keirkegaard there and go on to his better project, ourselves comparing St. Paul with his Heavenly Teacher.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #122 on: August 03, 2017, 05:01:03 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
I quote Kierkegaard once again:


"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther in his reformation failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ" (Kierkegaard, The Journals.)

Now the man's journals, huh? I wonder if you have any idea what you're missing by skulking around in tertiary sources, footnotes, and journals. Keeping in mind that Kierkegaard was only converted to Christ late in life, and spent years writing ironically under pseudonyms on a variety of subjects, fastening on no fixed view of life but mostly content to display a greater cleverness than Hegel on subjects, still I think -- as I've told you before -- reading his 'Philosophical Fragments' and 'Unscientific Postscript' -- his mature, quite-nearly Christian philosophical works -- and they are not very long and very accessible -- has the potential to change your life and silence your questions.

But to address the quotation: St. Paul did not draw attention away from "imitating Christ" -- this is the man who wrote so famously and musically,

μιμηταί μου
γίνεσθε
καθὼς κἀγὼ
Χριστοῦ.

Mimics of me
be ye
in just the way also I
the Christ.

Mr. Kierkegaard is drudging at that unnecessary task, the recovery of the "early church," and ironically imitating his adversary Dr. Luther, since by attacking him as "inauthentic" he doubles down on Dr. Luther's own game. You and I are not Lutheran, certainly not harassed by corrupt Lutheran church bureaucrats in Victorian Denmark, and so by your leave we'll leave Keirkegaard there and go on to his better project, ourselves comparing St. Paul with his Heavenly Teacher.
You have no clue as to what you say. Most quotes I gave you are from Kierkegaard's late life, even from his last year; 1855. But I am confident that Kierkegaard might be able to change My life, something Paul can NOT
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #123 on: August 03, 2017, 05:04:21 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
Read the rest of the quotes. You asked for some Kierkegaard. I gave it to you. And I would comtinue saying what Kierkegaard said, that "Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ", which is what Kierkegaard Said, and I would golf to this even if Kierkegaard never Said it

Please cite the quotation. It's identical to what you wrote under your own name above, and it doesn't sound like Kierkegaard's style.
No I didnt write that under My own name, they were citations. Kierkegaard's words:

"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther in his reformation failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ" (Kierkegaard, The Journals.)
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #124 on: August 03, 2017, 05:18:18 AM »
Ah yes a footnote to a pamphlet of Kierkegaard's. Well, you see, it's very easy to reply to this. "If in the slightest degree ..." -- yes, of course the Church derives much of her rhetoric from the Apostle. "I must raise an outcry ..." -- rightly, he appeals to the source. "Luther has ... criticized Christ by Paul, the master by the disciple." -- This is what you have often tried to do, heaping blame on God for concepts you imagined you found in St. Paul. I commend the philosopher for resisting this trap. "What I have done is to hold up Christ’s preaching alongside the preaching of the Apostle." Which is precisely what I'm pointing out that you must do, which you have so far done exceedingly poorly, i.e., sparsely. So it seems I am quite agreed with your little snippet here, altho somehow I doubt to your satisfaction.
I quote Kierkegaard once again:


"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther in his reformation failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down, making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ" (Kierkegaard, The Journals.)

Now the man's journals, huh? I wonder if you have any idea what you're missing by skulking around in tertiary sources, footnotes, and journals. Keeping in mind that Kierkegaard was only converted to Christ late in life, and spent years writing ironically under pseudonyms on a variety of subjects, fastening on no fixed view of life but mostly content to display a greater cleverness than Hegel on subjects, still I think -- as I've told you before -- reading his 'Philosophical Fragments' and 'Unscientific Postscript' -- his mature, quite-nearly Christian philosophical works -- and they are not very long and very accessible -- has the potential to change your life and silence your questions.

But to address the quotation: St. Paul did not draw attention away from "imitating Christ" -- this is the man who wrote so famously and musically,

μιμηταί μου
γίνεσθε
καθὼς κἀγὼ
Χριστοῦ.

Mimics of me
be ye
in just the way also I
the Christ.

Mr. Kierkegaard is drudging at that unnecessary task, the recovery of the "early church," and ironically imitating his adversary Dr. Luther, since by attacking him as "inauthentic" he doubles down on Dr. Luther's own game. You and I are not Lutheran, certainly not harassed by corrupt Lutheran church bureaucrats in Victorian Denmark, and so by your leave we'll leave Keirkegaard there and go on to his better project, ourselves comparing St. Paul with his Heavenly Teacher.

Kierkegaard's position is  as follows: on the one hand, he rejected all rational proofs of the objective truth of Christian dogma. He would say Christianity is true, but that it cant be proven  by rational means.. Once again in opposition to Paul. He also rejected the authority of the Church like that found in Catholicism. He tried to find a space for Christian faith based neither on reason nor Church authority, but on what would later come to be called Existential. Of course, for those who believe the Earth is like a thin pizza at the centre of a universe created 4000 BC, this is heresy at best
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 05:19:13 AM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #125 on: August 03, 2017, 05:27:10 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #126 on: August 03, 2017, 05:28:33 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.

"Foolish Galatians.", "Let him be accursed.", "Emasculate themselves."... Christlike?
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #127 on: August 03, 2017, 05:32:49 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.

"Foolish Galatians.", "Let him be accursed.", "Emasculate themselves."... Christlike?

"Den of vipers," "Let him be as a heathen man and a publican," "Pluck out your eye" ...

But you're forgetting a little something you promised to attend to:

Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book.

Good! Amusing that you want to offer chunks of hundreds of words as your citation, but a start.

Quote
Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician,

Where is Christ "anti-politician"?

Quote
Paul started a political program above all else

What was it?

Quote
... with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning,

What were these?

Quote
with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy,

It was St. Peter that instructed women to call their husbands "Lord" and obey them (I Peter 3:6). Yes, the man you imagine St. Paul deprived of the opportunity to implement Beebertianity"true" Christianity.

Do you really think St. Paul's instructions to women were out-of-keeping with Roman imperial mores? To be quiet in assembly, but to discuss public affairs at home; not to be busy-bodies or gadabouts; to submit to husbands and older women? Does any of this really sound "dangerously degrading" for the times? We read words very similar to some of St. Paul's as epigrams on tombs of pagan Roman women (Robert Louis Wilken in "The Christians as the Romans Saw Them"). While, on the other hand, St. Paul said to wives and husbands, Submit to one another; said to husbands, Cherish your wives as you do your own flesh, and, Give yourselves to her; said, In Christ, there is neither male nor female; said to widows, You are at full liberty to marry whom you wish; who in I Cor 11 for every male injunction gave an equal female injunction (which is his wont in any such discussion, and very remarkable). Who worked with fellow apostle Prisca whom he endears as Priscilla; worked with Lydia who had a church in her house; worked with too many deaconesses and prophetesses and patronesses to remember, but whom he himself called out thanks to by name in many letters.

Quote
with his stressing on man's depravity.

Where does he? And in what way contradicting Christ, and where does Christ say the contrary?

Quote
Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking.

Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)

Quote
Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse.

Please give examples.

Quote
Jesus believed in the greatness of man,

When did he say this?

Quote
Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come.

Where do you find any examples of this?

Quote
Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.

I'm not sure you know what "empathizing" means, but what examples do you have of Jesus teaching this?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #128 on: August 03, 2017, 06:05:50 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.

"Foolish Galatians.", "Let him be accursed.", "Emasculate themselves."... Christlike?

"Den of vipers," "Let him be as a heathen man and a publican," "Pluck out your eye" ...

But you're forgetting a little something you promised to attend to:

Beebert, there's no way for anybody to respond to your posts in any meaningful way, when -- as always -- you offer no citations or examples. You don't show in St. Paul where he hates man and contradicts Christ; you don't show in Christ where he contradicts St. Paul or takes your side of things; you don't show from any sources where God does to man the things of which you accuse him; and you don't even cite Kierkegaard for your claims about him. Now, I know that what you're writing is vague slander drawn from high fancy and littered with emotional adjectives to lend it a facade of substance, but I can do little more than aver this, when you refuse to offer substance. Consider yourself disproved by yourself. As for the general subject, which is really just what is to be done about your perpetual, dismal, nasal weeping on subjects of no value except to impress yourself with yourself's assumption of the exceptionalism of yourself -- what an argument in favor of giving a young boy a good spanking sometimes, as unfashionable as it is to say so.
Let's start with examples like romans 1 to 3, 9 and 13 and hebrews the whole book.

Good! Amusing that you want to offer chunks of hundreds of words as your citation, but a start.

Quote
Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician,

Where is Christ "anti-politician"?

Quote
Paul started a political program above all else

What was it?

Quote
... with his New idea of sacrifice and its meaning,

What were these?

Quote
with his disastrous views on women in for example Corinthians and Timothy,

It was St. Peter that instructed women to call their husbands "Lord" and obey them (I Peter 3:6). Yes, the man you imagine St. Paul deprived of the opportunity to implement Beebertianity"true" Christianity.

Do you really think St. Paul's instructions to women were out-of-keeping with Roman imperial mores? To be quiet in assembly, but to discuss public affairs at home; not to be busy-bodies or gadabouts; to submit to husbands and older women? Does any of this really sound "dangerously degrading" for the times? We read words very similar to some of St. Paul's as epigrams on tombs of pagan Roman women (Robert Louis Wilken in "The Christians as the Romans Saw Them"). While, on the other hand, St. Paul said to wives and husbands, Submit to one another; said to husbands, Cherish your wives as you do your own flesh, and, Give yourselves to her; said, In Christ, there is neither male nor female; said to widows, You are at full liberty to marry whom you wish; who in I Cor 11 for every male injunction gave an equal female injunction (which is his wont in any such discussion, and very remarkable). Who worked with fellow apostle Prisca whom he endears as Priscilla; worked with Lydia who had a church in her house; worked with too many deaconesses and prophetesses and patronesses to remember, but whom he himself called out thanks to by name in many letters.

Quote
with his stressing on man's depravity.

Where does he? And in what way contradicting Christ, and where does Christ say the contrary?

Quote
Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking.

Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)

Quote
Paul brought all these things back immediately and made them worse.

Please give examples.

Quote
Jesus believed in the greatness of man,

When did he say this?

Quote
Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come.

Where do you find any examples of this?

Quote
Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.

I'm not sure you know what "empathizing" means, but what examples do you have of Jesus teaching this?
In Another thread I replied to your shallow comment that Nietzsche was responsible for nazism, and repeated my reply like 3 times, but you never answered. Though I will answer to this after I have eaten lunch. In the mean time, I claim that 95 percent or so of all so called Christians make Paul Into an idol. His letters are letters. He is not more inspired than a Dostoevsky.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:08:59 AM by beebert »
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Offline Indocern

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #129 on: August 03, 2017, 06:51:33 AM »
This man is the founder of christianity as we know it, there is no doubt about it. Though of course even more so in the west than the East. But this man is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ, if Christ is to have anything unique to tell us. And in the end an honest man would have to choose. The church chose Paul, and his teachings in combination with Jesus teaching of eternal damnaion, the most disgusting idea in the history of mankind that makes me say with confidence that this idea is the strongest of all reasons as to why the argument that it would be better if mankind never existed is a tenable one. This most disgusting idea combined with Paul's typically jewish worship of a totalitarian and all-powerful Other, has made christianity in to the abusive, destructive and life-hating religion it today is. Paul has no sense of the infinite worth of a human soul, he is the enemy of life par exelence, and complete honesty would lead the combination of Paul's teaching and Jesus to drive a man mad. This is of course something often find in Christian history, and monsterous crimes such as the inquisition and forced conversions are not phenomenas dependent on the time and era in which they occured, But can be directly traced back to the original texts found in the New Testament. Paul's idea has more blood on its conscience than any other idea in human history. Without him, no inquisition, no reformation, no Karl Marx nor nazism. Without him, mental diseases would be less and so would all other miseries. I Will not get started on John of Patmos, But Paul has corrupted the whole world and is a persecutor of God. I like a maximum of 10 percent of his writings, but believe them to be falseness when I dig deeper. I believe he lied and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a surpressed hatred. His proclamation of the elimination of sacrifice by introducing God who sacrifices himself for the forgiveness of sins under the threat of hell, while the single man who is honest would only stand there asking "What the hell is this insane circus? Why has God even started this insanity, this schizophrenic muppet show?" God is just as ignorant as the sacrifice obsessed humans which went before him. At best he is lying about why Jesus is sacrificed (i.e. that Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins, rather the death being a cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice).

Worth and meaning are given without sacrifice, payment or forgiveness. Organized christianity has been a persecutor of God, and dogmatic thought should be abolished. It is all about men not capable to express the truth of man as an artist would, that is, they are too ungifted, like apes who try to imitate men. Sacrifice, punishment, forgiveness and eternal life: These concepts have, when one is brave enough to look deep in to things, been about hierarchy structures and ways to ways to dominate. Without vengeance, revenge and hell, no bliss and heaven. So reasons every follower of Paul.

So, what you think of monks (who leave their lifes and go in one place for the whole life), are they have problems in mind or soul? As I have heard there is monks who go to this life because of their mental problems, even they say so. But according to witness of orthodox man he was told to Jesus to go and live in cave to be "rightouness". Like he was not so in the monastery. So I guess all that not talking to nobody for years, living in caves, eat once per week etc. are doing so according to Christianity and Jesus teaching.

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Also there is people who have suffering for Christ for 10 years in torment because of evil people torment them and God not help them, no matter He can do things most people don't know He ever did. So God accept this torment as good I guess.

What about those things?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:58:47 AM by Indocern »

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #130 on: August 03, 2017, 07:41:22 AM »
To you Peter O'doran: Also, Tao-Te-Ching, Plato, Baghavad-Gita, all explain the profound things that can be found in the New Testament, but they explain it in a far more profound way. The New Testament explanation is for the less intelligent. Unfortunately; many of these unintelligent Christians try to destroy other religions, and call texts like the upanishads demonic. Those are scroundels.
Now here to my reply:
One may call Christ an anti-politician, because his message was a message to the person, a way to make people get away from worshiping hierarchical structures, People way to get away from collective thinking that so easily results in horrible ideologies. Have you ever seen a sane political party,  group, Collective or ideology? No,  in groups insanity is a rule. Christ came to turn man into an authentic being, a self that meets another authentic self that doesnt hide behind ideas, structures, objective thinking, dogmas etc. You may then if you wish call Jesus a rebel in political terms. Paul? The oppisite, his plan was to revaluate the old values in to new hierarchical structures by introducing a new way of sacrifice, from man sacrificing to The Big Other that they feared, to God sacrificing himself. He wanted numbers, Jesus didnt care about numbers. The Big Other, to use a hegelian term, dies on the cross and man is finally left free from fearing it, and is now left alone in union with the holy spirit that becomes present in the here and now.

"Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)"

So to that question, the answer is in the cross. God as this big other, this fearful mystery that rules Nature, dies on the cross. God is not active in history. He is only where man resoponds in love to his vulnerable love. Only there is his power and man's freedom. God can not direct history without man cooperating.

So Paul's political program was to make his ideas of eliminanating the law he was incapable of following known to all so they could be spread, while all that he despised could dissappear, if not now then on the last judgement. Psychologically he is quite easy to get. He hated himself because of his incapability to follow the law - because man has not much Free will to brag with - and expressed this hatred by terrorizing Christians. But suddenly he had a vision thanks to an epileptic seizure: He found in Christ's cross a way to rid himself of his tormented feelings of guilt and self-hatred, and his hate turned into" "love" as long as he could project his anger anger externally; on a last judgement and on all who didnt receive his "Good news". At the same time, like a typical human, he wanted all to Believe in his message in order for him to feel more secure in this invention of his.

Sure, Peter wasn't much better than Paul, but less innocent because he was inferior intellectualy. Btw I doubt the authencity of his letters, especially the 2nd.

You know like me that Paul stresses man's depravity throghout Romans for example, and Christ saves from this depravity, in his Case the inability to keep the law. Jesus on the other hand demanded time after time that we should DO. Matthew 5-7 is just one example,but Paul turned into  "I can't do without grace", grace being a word I believe Jesus never used. And here, on this complete emphazise on God 's grace, power and sovereign freedom that culminated in predestination, contra man's corruption and innate evil soul, Paul made the feelings of guilt, the extremities between guilt contra forgiveness worse than before Christ. In Jesus, man is still capable of doing and changing the course, in Paul not without an interference from God, or in reality, an epileptic seizure
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 07:42:23 AM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #131 on: August 03, 2017, 07:47:46 AM »
This man is the founder of christianity as we know it, there is no doubt about it. Though of course even more so in the west than the East. But this man is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ, if Christ is to have anything unique to tell us. And in the end an honest man would have to choose. The church chose Paul, and his teachings in combination with Jesus teaching of eternal damnaion, the most disgusting idea in the history of mankind that makes me say with confidence that this idea is the strongest of all reasons as to why the argument that it would be better if mankind never existed is a tenable one. This most disgusting idea combined with Paul's typically jewish worship of a totalitarian and all-powerful Other, has made christianity in to the abusive, destructive and life-hating religion it today is. Paul has no sense of the infinite worth of a human soul, he is the enemy of life par exelence, and complete honesty would lead the combination of Paul's teaching and Jesus to drive a man mad. This is of course something often find in Christian history, and monsterous crimes such as the inquisition and forced conversions are not phenomenas dependent on the time and era in which they occured, But can be directly traced back to the original texts found in the New Testament. Paul's idea has more blood on its conscience than any other idea in human history. Without him, no inquisition, no reformation, no Karl Marx nor nazism. Without him, mental diseases would be less and so would all other miseries. I Will not get started on John of Patmos, But Paul has corrupted the whole world and is a persecutor of God. I like a maximum of 10 percent of his writings, but believe them to be falseness when I dig deeper. I believe he lied and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a surpressed hatred. His proclamation of the elimination of sacrifice by introducing God who sacrifices himself for the forgiveness of sins under the threat of hell, while the single man who is honest would only stand there asking "What the hell is this insane circus? Why has God even started this insanity, this schizophrenic muppet show?" God is just as ignorant as the sacrifice obsessed humans which went before him. At best he is lying about why Jesus is sacrificed (i.e. that Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins, rather the death being a cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice).

Worth and meaning are given without sacrifice, payment or forgiveness. Organized christianity has been a persecutor of God, and dogmatic thought should be abolished. It is all about men not capable to express the truth of man as an artist would, that is, they are too ungifted, like apes who try to imitate men. Sacrifice, punishment, forgiveness and eternal life: These concepts have, when one is brave enough to look deep in to things, been about hierarchy structures and ways to ways to dominate. Without vengeance, revenge and hell, no bliss and heaven. So reasons every follower of Paul.

So, what you think of monks (who leave their lifes and go in one place for the whole life), are they have problems in mind or soul? As I have heard there is monks who go to this life because of their mental problems, even they say so. But according to witness of orthodox man he was told to Jesus to go and live in cave to be "rightouness". Like he was not so in the monastery. So I guess all that not talking to nobody for years, living in caves, eat once per week etc. are doing so according to Christianity and Jesus teaching.

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Also there is people who have suffering for Christ for 10 years in torment because of evil people torment them and God not help them, no matter He can do things most people don't know He ever did. So God accept this torment as good I guess.

What about those things?
I am not good at advicing you about these things. But I think you can be a monk for both Good and bad reasons. But some monks I respect highly, higher than all other christians I know of, like Francis of Assisi, Starets Silouan, Isaac of Nineve and Seraphim of Sarov.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 07:48:34 AM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #132 on: August 03, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »
Also a short addition to the last one, Peter O'Doran: Paul is the one who is the Main reason for the Christian "There is one way Only" which then led to "Salvation Only in the Church", which then led to "We must all Think the same". Objective thinking, dogmaticism, equalizing intellectual agreement to creeds with having the truth and being united to it etc. This is one of the most dangerous ways of thinkings that there is, according  to both hinduism in its greatest heights, and buddhism. And in christianity, the reason is the immense inborn fear of the intolerable God, of hell, of punishment, and of a complete misunderstanding of Christ's Words in John when he says that one can Only come to the father through him. Through him doesnt mean through Paul or the hierarchy of the Church, but through God as revealed in him. And I am sure therefore, that even if Christ is the truth, even if he is God, other religions have often been closer to his truth than organized christianity.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 08:06:41 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline RobS

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #133 on: August 03, 2017, 08:20:34 AM »
You're the one who needs to know the answer.
I already know and I also know I don't need to answer to you.

I think porter is in one of his cranky "catcher in the rye" moods right now.   Best just to let him go on until he eats his pudding cup, to settle his fussiness  or whatever it is he does until he settles him down
LOL!
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #134 on: August 03, 2017, 10:06:28 AM »
You know what Beebert...enjoy your newfound atheism.  Perhaps it's better than acting like a winey baby of how you felt you're going to hell.  Enjoy going to non-existence.
Wouldnt you prefer non-existence to an imaginable mental torture, to a nightmarish prison and terrorizing fear because you only have to wait for not death but unending torture striking you at any moment?

There's practically no difference between those choices.  Meanwhile, I'm able to hope enough to inherit the Kingdom, unlike your hopeless case.

I also remember it wasn't Paul who warned of the worm that never dies.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:07:39 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.