Author Topic: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life  (Read 6339 times)

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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #315 on: August 04, 2017, 10:07:11 AM »
Is there any other reason for becoming a Christian than the belief that it is true? Why have all of you decided to be Christians? This is a well meaning question that I am interested to understand
This would seem to be a rather compelling reason to me. If I didn't think it was true, I wouldn't believe it. I don't believe things just because they make me happy or scratch a philosophical itch. I believe them because I think they are true regardless of how uncomfortable the ramifications might be.

I'm a Christian because I've studied a lot about Christ and the early Church and I don't know what to do with all that testimony if it isn't true. It seems like an awful lot of first or second hand testimony that you just have to pretend that they are all hallucinating. I might not like some of it, but I can't discard it purely because I don't like it.
But even if you believe it true, say that you would find that truth to be awful even if it were true, if so, why align yourself with it instead of opposing it and say "Truth is ugly!"? In what way is there benefit in aligning one self with the truth other than the fact that it is true, since it might be ugly?
I suppose I could make up a fairy tale world to believe in where nothing bad happens and no one ever dies, but what is the point in believing in that other than to make myself feel better?

The truth is frightening. It is a yawning chasm with no bottom in sight. The ramifications are scary. That is the way the world and the universe are. Almost 100% of this universe is completely hostile to life. It is but a sliver of a percentage that can sustain life. That is truth. We are a fallen, defective species. That is truth. It is also truth that the Supreme Being also came to redeem this species and that while many will not accept that redemption, some will, and through that redemption, will be divinized and raised to a plane far beyond our current comprehension. That road to redemption is a rocky one, full of perils and struggle and pain. This is reality, this is truth. I prefer to face it head on than retreat to a fictional setting where everyone lives happily ever after. The good news is that despite all this horror, the Supreme Being that came to redeem us, is capable and willing to guide us through all these perils and see us through to the other side.
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Velsigne

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #316 on: August 04, 2017, 10:25:21 AM »
You could try being grateful for and enjoying what life you have.  Appreciate this beautiful world.  Go out away from the city and have quiet time in nature and be grateful.  Think about what a miracle it is that you draw breath at all, that you've had the chance to experience all this amazing stuff here.

Or you can just endlessly waste your life railing about how empty unproveable ideas and how you want life to be physically and emotionally comfortable for you and how you want to be god and change everything to suit yourself. 
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #317 on: August 04, 2017, 10:41:17 AM »
And as you know, repentance is internal and yet dependant on another person; God.

More than just that.  Repentance is not internal.

Sin (generally speaking) affects both the sinner and the one who was harmed by the sin (knowingly or unknowingly), and the effect is manifested on the sinner in multiple ways: on their own person, on their relationship with God, and on their relationship with others. 

So repentance (the seeking of forgiveness and turnaround of life away from the way of sin) cannot be purely internal (nor is it purely external) - it must manifest itself in the same way in which the sin did: rebuilding the relationship with the one harmed, and reforming the sinner's attitude and relationship to the one harmed, to themselves, and to the Lord.

This is one of the reasons why the conditional forgiveness of the Lord's prayer is so important ("forgive us our trespasses/debts, as we forgive those who trespass against us / have debts to us") - God offers His forgiveness freely, but we ask Him to make it conditional on our forgiveness of others in order to teach us (and propel us) to offer forgiveness freely to others in imitation of Him.

Repentance, then, is both complicated and simple, both easy and difficult.  Our fallibility as humans, though, is why it is always possible.  I'm not sure how you can consistently take the words of the scripture to their most absurd possible personal interpretation when the examples provided demonstrate the opposite perspective to your own: the Thief on the Cross (deserving of death), Peter (denying the Lord even after seeing his power manifest), Paul (blasphemer and persecutor, in his own words), the woman who anointed Jesus's feet, Zaccheus & Matthew (tax collectors), etc. all were great sinners in one way or another, but were forgiven - some even at the last possible moment.  Forgiveness from the Lord is always possible provided that you're able to seek it.
Of course repentance is both, but I am talking about the tendency to interpret external signs etc to realities that nullify the internal motions and makes them unimportant. You also talk about sin as if all sins are caused against someone else, but but guess you mean that if I cut myself with a knife or masturbate, it effects all creation? That is a spiritual insight unavalable without revelation.

"I'm not sure how you can consistently take the words of the scripture to their most absurd possible personal interpretation when the examples provided demonstrate the opposite perspective to your own: the Thief on the Cross (deserving of death), Peter (denying the Lord even after seeing his power manifest), Paul (blasphemer and persecutor, in his own words), the woman who anointed Jesus's feet, Zaccheus & Matthew (tax collectors), etc. all were great sinners in one way or another, but were forgiven - some even at the last possible moment.  Forgiveness from the Lord is always possible provided that you're able to seek it."

These examples are typical of the multiple personality disorder-problem that I find in christianity and the New Testament. On the one hand this forgiveness and even God's weakness, on the other hand an all-powerful and ruling God,  a vengeful and wrathful judge who Condemns others to suffer and there by shows a total unwilligness to forgive in eternity and worse; to want suffering to exist forever.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #318 on: August 04, 2017, 11:02:18 AM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #319 on: August 04, 2017, 11:05:52 AM »
Also, this is very important to understand my whole critique about christianity as resting on the Words of Paul: What do we find in Christ? The son of God, God incarnate who become crucified, mocked, punched, tortured etc. Now Jesus came to show the face of God, right(He who has seen me has seen the Father)? He came to free the oppressed and poor etc. And he did all this in weakness. He was weak, powerless, suffering, poor, an outcast etc. And he was the image of God. To me that suggests Only one thing: God is all These things. He is not powerful in the way that has been suggested in Christian theology. The Only way he has power is in his weakness, love, suffering etc. This IS God and Christ. But from Paul onwards, God is this all-powerful and ruling Other, that only takes the ROLE of being an outcast, a sufferer, a weak man who gets crucified, while in reality being a ruling King, a judge with absolute power. This I find untrenable. God MUST be crucified every time an evil act is committed; and thereby proving his complete powerlessness and love. He can only conquer evil by being weak. He transforms hearts because he HAS no power, because he is like a lamb, and that is his power. Eternally. Because he has no other power to destroy it. That must be the truth, but the schizophrenic contradiction found in classical theology.
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Offline WPM

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #320 on: August 04, 2017, 11:13:28 AM »
Not buying into the over complicated arguments.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #321 on: August 04, 2017, 11:39:49 AM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
If God does not want that, why then did he create a world where the possibility is real, even probable for the majority if we believe the earliest christian writings?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #322 on: August 04, 2017, 01:36:03 PM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
If God does not want that, why then did he create a world where the possibility is real, even probable for the majority if we believe the earliest christian writings?

Pretty darn curious how you cope with death. Every day brings you closer. Nobody asked to be born, but everybody has to die. I'd assume from your perspective life is a death march. Every day you wake up and struggle to avoid your death. Every step you take is a dodge of a death trap. Every bite is a fight to maintain metabolism. Every breath is a rebel sigh. Am I right?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline William T

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #323 on: August 04, 2017, 01:40:52 PM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
If God does not want that, why then did he create a world where the possibility is real, even probable for the majority if we believe the earliest christian writings?

Pretty darn curious how you cope with death. Every day brings you closer. Nobody asked to be born, but everybody has to die. I'd assume from your perspective life is a death march. Every day you wake up and struggle to avoid your death. Every step you take is a dodge of a death trap. Every bite is a fight to maintain metabolism. Every breath is a rebel sigh. Am I right?

It may be best , and most productive at this point to drop out of this and just let B talk to rob, as b requested.    I think any of us adding anything would just be poisoning the regardless of how valuable we think are opinions are.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #324 on: August 04, 2017, 01:43:51 PM »
Still missing from this thread: citations for Beebert's claims about Christ, viz.:

Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician,

Where is Christ "anti-politician"?

Quote
Paul started a political program above all else

What was it?

Quote
Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking.

Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)

Quote
Jesus believed in the greatness of man,

When did he say this?

Quote
Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come. Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.

I'm not sure you know what "empathizing" means, but what examples do you have of Jesus teaching like this?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #325 on: August 04, 2017, 01:44:51 PM »
The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

Maybe I am far too tolerant of radically opposed views, Mor. All those claims are laughable for the sheer fact of how naive they are. It's all provocation and edginess. There's no depth. It's hard to take any one of them seriously, so maybe that's why I'm OK with beebert getting what he needs off his chest for some kind of catharsis.

I don't necessarily agree these are "thrown out there as stumbling blocks". That doesn't seem to me beebert's intentions. Rather I see a poster who is running a bit too wild and loose with Nietzsche.

Since we don't have the same understanding of "stumbling block", I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

I never claimed that every item on that list was equal to the others.  A number of them are, as you said, "laughable" or "naive", but some of them are quite serious.  Maybe I'm laughable and naive for taking beebert seriously, but because I do, I think his espousing of those serious claims is not a matter of catharsis.  It may have started that way, but the focus on what you're trying to get rid of just takes it in again, reinforces it, and corrupts the person.  Beebert (ca. December 2016) is not beebert (ca. August 2017). 

Quote
Have you read any Nietszche at all? I ask because I'm not sure how you can understand beebert's grandstanding otherwise.

I haven't read Nietzsche, no, so I was willing to take your statement for granted, but given beebert's rejection of it, I'm not sure what to make of it. 

Quote
Quote
I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     
They aren't acceptable views for any Orthodox, of course. I agree. To Purgatory this thread shall go! A Christian forum probably shouldn't have threads like these openly blaspheming God. But like I said, I'm a very tolerant person maybe too much so. However I'm not cynical enough to dismiss what may very well be "genuine cries from a troubled soul". beebert has posted before on despondency and depressed feelings. Just keep in mind though that beebert is drawing from the same well as Nietszche. Maybe mimicking is the better description. I've wondered if Nietszche's animus toward God (and his thing for little girls) was because he could never get a girlfriend. I'm not saying that's true of beebert, his strongly inpenitant malevolence towards God seems rooted elsewhere. But in any case, I think its fair to read Nietszche at times projecting his own feelings of inadequacy. Just look at what he wrote about the poor and oppressed, that they should rise above and conquer the rich and powerful. How nostalgic!

Believe it or not, I also have a high tolerance for opposing views, lashing out at God, etc.  But what may be understandable or acceptable in one circumstance is not in another.

I have very little spiritual experience, but my own impression from his posts is that beebert is no longer in a place where this can be tolerated because it is actually harming him and not helping him.  God can defend himself, but if beebert is as broken as he seems, he needs people to help him out, and part of that is not enabling his own spiritual self-harm by pretending it's no big deal. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #326 on: August 04, 2017, 01:45:19 PM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
If God does not want that, why then did he create a world where the possibility is real, even probable for the majority if we believe the earliest christian writings?

Pretty darn curious how you cope with death. Every day brings you closer. Nobody asked to be born, but everybody has to die. I'd assume from your perspective life is a death march. Every day you wake up and struggle to avoid your death. Every step you take is a dodge of a death trap. Every bite is a fight to maintain metabolism. Every breath is a rebel sigh. Am I right?

It may be best , and most productive at this point to drop out of this and just let B talk to rob, as b requested.    I think any of us adding anything would just be poisoning the regardless of how valuable we think are opinions are.

What's your motive for this commandment? How bizarre.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Velsigne

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #327 on: August 04, 2017, 02:02:37 PM »
The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

Maybe I am far too tolerant of radically opposed views, Mor. All those claims are laughable for the sheer fact of how naive they are. It's all provocation and edginess. There's no depth. It's hard to take any one of them seriously, so maybe that's why I'm OK with beebert getting what he needs off his chest for some kind of catharsis.

I don't necessarily agree these are "thrown out there as stumbling blocks". That doesn't seem to me beebert's intentions. Rather I see a poster who is running a bit too wild and loose with Nietzsche.

Since we don't have the same understanding of "stumbling block", I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

I never claimed that every item on that list was equal to the others.  A number of them are, as you said, "laughable" or "naive", but some of them are quite serious.  Maybe I'm laughable and naive for taking beebert seriously, but because I do, I think his espousing of those serious claims is not a matter of catharsis.  It may have started that way, but the focus on what you're trying to get rid of just takes it in again, reinforces it, and corrupts the person.  Beebert (ca. December 2016) is not beebert (ca. August 2017). 

Quote
Have you read any Nietszche at all? I ask because I'm not sure how you can understand beebert's grandstanding otherwise.

I haven't read Nietzsche, no, so I was willing to take your statement for granted, but given beebert's rejection of it, I'm not sure what to make of it. 

Quote
Quote
I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     
They aren't acceptable views for any Orthodox, of course. I agree. To Purgatory this thread shall go! A Christian forum probably shouldn't have threads like these openly blaspheming God. But like I said, I'm a very tolerant person maybe too much so. However I'm not cynical enough to dismiss what may very well be "genuine cries from a troubled soul". beebert has posted before on despondency and depressed feelings. Just keep in mind though that beebert is drawing from the same well as Nietszche. Maybe mimicking is the better description. I've wondered if Nietszche's animus toward God (and his thing for little girls) was because he could never get a girlfriend. I'm not saying that's true of beebert, his strongly inpenitant malevolence towards God seems rooted elsewhere. But in any case, I think its fair to read Nietszche at times projecting his own feelings of inadequacy. Just look at what he wrote about the poor and oppressed, that they should rise above and conquer the rich and powerful. How nostalgic!

Believe it or not, I also have a high tolerance for opposing views, lashing out at God, etc.  But what may be understandable or acceptable in one circumstance is not in another.

I have very little spiritual experience, but my own impression from his posts is that beebert is no longer in a place where this can be tolerated because it is actually harming him and not helping him.  God can defend himself, but if beebert is as broken as he seems, he needs people to help him out, and part of that is not enabling his own spiritual self-harm by pretending it's no big deal.

+1

A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #328 on: August 04, 2017, 02:21:59 PM »
As a Christian, you need to work on your bedside manners.

Please don't start a fourth "Marital Fasting" thread, I think I had to lock the first three.  Seriously, just don't do it. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #329 on: August 04, 2017, 02:24:32 PM »
As a Christian, you need to work on your bedside manners.

Please don't start a fourth "Marital Fasting" thread, I think I had to lock the first three.  Seriously, just don't do it.
???
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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #330 on: August 04, 2017, 02:25:10 PM »
Mor on a roll on his birthday. ;D
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #331 on: August 04, 2017, 02:25:28 PM »
because I find it laughable to say "If you confess to a priest, are baptized and take the eucharist you Will be saved ". This is a blasphemous lie beyond all else. All this can be done in despair...

Which is not more powerful than God.

Quote
...hatred and without any relationship to God whatsoever.

If we believed in a purely mechanistic theory of sacraments, then your objection might make sense.  But we don't. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #332 on: August 04, 2017, 02:29:27 PM »
Still missing from this thread: citations for Beebert's claims about Christ, viz.:

Then we can move on to the rest. Christ was an anti-politician,

Where is Christ "anti-politician"?

Quote
Paul started a political program above all else

What was it?

Quote
Jesus tried to eliminate the fear of the Big Other, the horrible sense of diffuse guilt and judgemental thinking.

Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)

Quote
Jesus believed in the greatness of man,

When did he say this?

Quote
Paul empathized man's worthlessness and wanted men to be concerned only about what is to come. Jesus wanted man to take no thought for tomorrow while empathizing a PRACTICE.

I'm not sure you know what "empathizing" means, but what examples do you have of Jesus teaching like this?
Cant you answer my New questions instead? My 4-5 posts?
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #333 on: August 04, 2017, 02:32:16 PM »
There  is no doubt for example that nothing external makes one a christian if the internal isnt there first in a deciding way. And with that in consideration it seems like it is often a spiritual rape to Force christianity on others, especially children. Do any of you understand why christianity feels evil to me? Because it doesnt give hope, it eliminates hope. Without christianity - a religion that calls the reason for the suffering of the world man's sinfullness, that is, his guilt - death is for a man without hope at least a last Hope. And that last Hope is eliminated in christianity, that says you Will experience eternal unending torment if you die without Faith. A Faith I can not achieve. So what is despair? It is when the last Hope of dying is eliminated, when a man who wants to stop existing feels that he can not under any circumstances get rid of his existence. And that is a greater suffering than any other

If Christianity is so evil and life-hating and soul-destroying, why are you still here trying to engage with it?  You call it "spiritual rape", but you seem like you're begging for it.  Why wouldn't you just run away from it? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #334 on: August 04, 2017, 02:32:35 PM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
If God does not want that, why then did he create a world where the possibility is real, even probable for the majority if we believe the earliest christian writings?

Pretty darn curious how you cope with death. Every day brings you closer. Nobody asked to be born, but everybody has to die. I'd assume from your perspective life is a death march. Every day you wake up and struggle to avoid your death. Every step you take is a dodge of a death trap. Every bite is a fight to maintain metabolism. Every breath is a rebel sigh. Am I right?

It may be best , and most productive at this point to drop out of this and just let B talk to rob, as b requested.    I think any of us adding anything would just be poisoning the regardless of how valuable we think are opinions are.

What's your motive for this commandment? How bizarre.
That you are just as much a poison to me as some of you would say I am to others
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #335 on: August 04, 2017, 02:34:23 PM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
If God does not want that, why then did he create a world where the possibility is real, even probable for the majority if we believe the earliest christian writings?

Pretty darn curious how you cope with death. Every day brings you closer. Nobody asked to be born, but everybody has to die. I'd assume from your perspective life is a death march. Every day you wake up and struggle to avoid your death. Every step you take is a dodge of a death trap. Every bite is a fight to maintain metabolism. Every breath is a rebel sigh. Am I right?

It may be best , and most productive at this point to drop out of this and just let B talk to rob, as b requested.    I think any of us adding anything would just be poisoning the regardless of how valuable we think are opinions are.

What's your motive for this commandment? How bizarre.
That you are just as much a poison to me as some of you would say I am to others

Aw that's sweet. I didn't know you cared.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #336 on: August 04, 2017, 02:37:13 PM »
There  is no doubt for example that nothing external makes one a christian if the internal isnt there first in a deciding way. And with that in consideration it seems like it is often a spiritual rape to Force christianity on others, especially children. Do any of you understand why christianity feels evil to me? Because it doesnt give hope, it eliminates hope. Without christianity - a religion that calls the reason for the suffering of the world man's sinfullness, that is, his guilt - death is for a man without hope at least a last Hope. And that last Hope is eliminated in christianity, that says you Will experience eternal unending torment if you die without Faith. A Faith I can not achieve. So what is despair? It is when the last Hope of dying is eliminated, when a man who wants to stop existing feels that he can not under any circumstances get rid of his existence. And that is a greater suffering than any other

If Christianity is so evil and life-hating and soul-destroying, why are you still here trying to engage with it?  You call it "spiritual rape", but you seem like you're begging for it.  Why wouldn't you just run away from it?
Because I am no hedonist. I want to know the truth and stand in a true, inwardly relationship to it. Of Christianity is true, then it is better to be decidengly opposed to it than indifferent, but best is to embrace it. But embracing something that I believe is probably true but yet find absolutely horrifying, ugly and so on, is impossible. And I cant as I said understand how Christians can call Christ God and still Believe in a ruling king who guides history by his allmighty power and foreknowledge
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #337 on: August 04, 2017, 02:42:46 PM »
So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable.

And yet, beebert is not dishonest when he calls creation (e.g., literature, music, philosophy, or generally whatever he thinks is great) good, even while "considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable".  If Christianity cannot solve eternal suffering, certainly Beethoven can't.  But he is to be preferred over "Jewish epileptics" in beebert's world, even though children are being raped while Beethoven's 7th is playing on the radio in that world.   

Yours is a pure delusion. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #338 on: August 04, 2017, 02:44:12 PM »
There  is no doubt for example that nothing external makes one a christian if the internal isnt there first in a deciding way. And with that in consideration it seems like it is often a spiritual rape to Force christianity on others, especially children. Do any of you understand why christianity feels evil to me? Because it doesnt give hope, it eliminates hope. Without christianity - a religion that calls the reason for the suffering of the world man's sinfullness, that is, his guilt - death is for a man without hope at least a last Hope. And that last Hope is eliminated in christianity, that says you Will experience eternal unending torment if you die without Faith. A Faith I can not achieve. So what is despair? It is when the last Hope of dying is eliminated, when a man who wants to stop existing feels that he can not under any circumstances get rid of his existence. And that is a greater suffering than any other

If Christianity is so evil and life-hating and soul-destroying, why are you still here trying to engage with it?  You call it "spiritual rape", but you seem like you're begging for it.  Why wouldn't you just run away from it?
Because I am no hedonist. I want to know the truth and stand in a true, inwardly relationship to it. Of Christianity is true, then it is better to be decidengly opposed to it than indifferent, but best is to embrace it. But embracing something that I believe is probably true but yet find absolutely horrifying, ugly and so on, is impossible. And I cant as I said understand how Christians can call Christ God and still Believe in a ruling king who guides history by his allmighty power and foreknowledge

You wouldn't run away from rape because you aren't a hedonist? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline William T

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #339 on: August 04, 2017, 02:48:02 PM »
I dont find it Good news, because considering what you just said, the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.
Maybe look at it as not so much of leap of faith to avoid damnation but rather leap to life. Christ wants to give life abundantly and also give us rest, His burden is light. Christ is the narrow gate that leads to life. God does not want anyone to suffer eternally.
If God does not want that, why then did he create a world where the possibility is real, even probable for the majority if we believe the earliest christian writings?

Pretty darn curious how you cope with death. Every day brings you closer. Nobody asked to be born, but everybody has to die. I'd assume from your perspective life is a death march. Every day you wake up and struggle to avoid your death. Every step you take is a dodge of a death trap. Every bite is a fight to maintain metabolism. Every breath is a rebel sigh. Am I right?

It may be best , and most productive at this point to drop out of this and just let B talk to rob, as b requested.    I think any of us adding anything would just be poisoning the regardless of how valuable we think are opinions are.

What's your motive for this commandment? How bizarre.

It's all part of my conspiratorial Zionist - Masonic plan to rule the world... Either that,  or just advice for productive dialogue for the actual concerns of the op. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 02:48:22 PM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #340 on: August 04, 2017, 02:49:30 PM »
If I add the sentence "as it seems to me" to Everything, then Perhaps you Christians who apparently love Christ and try to imitate him will not be as rude in your posts as I am. So it you want and care,  I beg you to give your opinions in this:

"I'm not sure how you can consistently take the words of the scripture to their most absurd possible personal interpretation when the examples provided demonstrate the opposite perspective to your own: the Thief on the Cross (deserving of death), Peter (denying the Lord even after seeing his power manifest), Paul (blasphemer and persecutor, in his own words), the woman who anointed Jesus's feet, Zaccheus & Matthew (tax collectors), etc. all were great sinners in one way or another, but were forgiven - some even at the last possible moment.  Forgiveness from the Lord is always possible provided that you're able to seek it."

These examples seems to me as typical of the multiple personality disorder-problem that I find in christianity and the New Testament. On the one hand this forgiveness and even God's weakness, on the other hand an all-powerful and ruling God,  a vengeful and wrathful judge who Condemns others to suffer and there by shows a total unwilligness to forgive in eternity and worse; to want suffering to exist forever.

I also dont this all good news, what question is answered because I live forever is a question that arises. And the fact that God even created a world that would unfold in this way and, according to Christ's own words, a world where many Will inevitably be damnned (narrow is the gate etc.), is bad news it seems to me. The power of the sin of Adam is apparently far stronger than the power of Christ's salvific work... Because all fell in Adam, but not all are redeemed. So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable. So left for me is to try to make a leap of faith for the sole reason that I fear punishment and dont want hell, but that again is dishonest and pathetic from my side.

And here comes a very important thing for me that I would like to see the view on of as many as possible:
This is a great part of why my whole critique about christianity is resting on many of the words of Paul: What do we find in Christ? The son of God, God incarnate who become crucified, mocked, beaten, tortured etc. Now Jesus came to show the face of God, right(He who has seen me has seen the Father)? He came to free the oppressed and poor etc. And he did all this in weakness. He was weak, powerless, suffering, poor, an outcast etc. And he was the image of God. To me that suggests Only one thing: God is all These things. He is not powerful in the way that has been suggested in Christian theology. The Only way he has power is in his weakness, love, suffering etc. This IS God and Christ. But from Paul onwards, God is this all-powerful and ruling Other, that only takes the ROLE of being an outcast, a sufferer, a weak man who gets crucified, while in reality being a ruling King, a judge with absolute power. This I find untrenable. God MUST be crucified every time an evil act is committed; and thereby proving his complete powerlessness and love. He can only conquer evil by being weak. He transforms hearts because he HAS no power, because he is like a lamb, and that is his power. Eternally. Because he has no other power to destroy it. That must be the truth, not the schizophrenic contradiction found in classical theology. It is too influenced by ancient Greek and its worship of passionlessness and a God that can neither feel passion mot suffer. But I believe God the father to be filled with passion and to suffer. He IS in need of man. Otherwise I can't  Believe him...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #341 on: August 04, 2017, 02:53:52 PM »
If I add the sentence "as it seems to me" to Everything, then Perhaps you Christians who apparently love Christ and try to imitate him will not be as rude in your posts as I am. So it you want and care,  I beg you to give your opinions in this: ...

Beebert, is your purpose here debate? Because you don't respond to those who respond to you, and you don't offer fleshed out arguments, and you don't cite when you make claims about sources, and you don't respond to those who respond to you.

Is your purpose here to seek counsel? Because you don't seem open.

Is your purpose here to catechize us?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline servulus

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #342 on: August 04, 2017, 02:55:21 PM »
Is there any other reason for becoming a Christian than the belief that it is true? Why have all of you decided to be Christians? This is a well meaning question that I am interested to understand
Love.

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #343 on: August 04, 2017, 02:55:50 PM »
So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable.

And yet, beebert is not dishonest when he calls creation (e.g., literature, music, philosophy, or generally whatever he thinks is great) good, even while "considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable".  If Christianity cannot solve eternal suffering, certainly Beethoven can't.  But he is to be preferred over "Jewish epileptics" in beebert's world, even though children are being raped while Beethoven's 7th is playing on the radio in that world.   

Yours is a pure delusion.
How a man can prefer Paul to Beethoven I will never get. Anyway, please dont resist evil. You reply asa fool because you are provoked by me posting like a maniac and a fool. I said that if the teachings of christianity as I understand them are true (Creation ex nihilo, God's forelnowledge and omnipotence, sovereign grace and man's depravity because of the first sin that God foreknew, eternal damnation which God foreknew and therefore willed even before sin entered the world, a last judgement with a separation in all eternity between sheep and goats etc.) and you take that in relation to the weight of evil and innocent suffering in the world, creation is evil and bad.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #344 on: August 04, 2017, 02:57:05 PM »
If I add the sentence "as it seems to me" to Everything, then Perhaps you Christians who apparently love Christ and try to imitate him will not be as rude in your posts as I am. So it you want and care,  I beg you to give your opinions in this: ...

Beebert, is your purpose here debate? Because you don't respond to those who respond to you, and you don't offer fleshed out arguments, and you don't cite when you make claims about sources, and you don't respond to those who respond to you.

Is your purpose here to seek counsel? Because you don't seem open.

Is your purpose here to catechize us?
I am now open, please answer this long post, if you want of course
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #345 on: August 04, 2017, 02:58:33 PM »
If I add the sentence "as it seems to me" to Everything, then Perhaps you Christians who apparently love Christ and try to imitate him will not be as rude in your posts as I am. So it you want and care,  I beg you to give your opinions in this: ...

Beebert, is your purpose here debate? Because you don't respond to those who respond to you, and you don't offer fleshed out arguments, and you don't cite when you make claims about sources, and you don't respond to those who respond to you.

Is your purpose here to seek counsel? Because you don't seem open.

Is your purpose here to catechize us?
I am now open, please answer this long post, if you want of course

Why? What are you going to do? Someone almost always answers your posts. You don't respond to those who respond to you. You don't flesh out your arguments. You don't cite when you make claims about sources. What are you going to do this time? "I am now open, please answer this long post" sounds like a ruse.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #346 on: August 04, 2017, 03:00:37 PM »
You reply asa fool because you are provoked by me posting like a maniac and a fool.

Finally, some progress.

Quote
I said that if the teachings of christianity as I understand them are true (Creation ex nihilo, God's forelnowledge and omnipotence, sovereign grace and man's depravity because of the first sin that God foreknew, eternal damnation which God foreknew and therefore willed even before sin entered the world, a last judgement with a separation in all eternity between sheep and goats etc.) and you take that in relation to the weight of evil and innocent suffering in the world, creation is evil and bad.

They're not.  I don't think you understand or could explain even a single teaching of Christianity in a more or less correct manner. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #347 on: August 04, 2017, 03:02:07 PM »
So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable.

And yet, beebert is not dishonest when he calls creation (e.g., literature, music, philosophy, or generally whatever he thinks is great) good, even while "considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable".  If Christianity cannot solve eternal suffering, certainly Beethoven can't.  But he is to be preferred over "Jewish epileptics" in beebert's world, even though children are being raped while Beethoven's 7th is playing on the radio in that world.   

Yours is a pure delusion.
Is your advice for me to kill myself? Because as I said, this hope would exist in a world without eternal hell if suffering would be found impossible to endure. But in christianity as Said, this hope is eliminated and only Faith can save one from inevitable torment that never ends. But I cant Believe. So... What would you do? Find relief in Beethoven or take the pistol and stop waiting for hell But instead embrace it immediately?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #348 on: August 04, 2017, 03:03:07 PM »
You reply asa fool because you are provoked by me posting like a maniac and a fool.

Finally, some progress.

Quote
I said that if the teachings of christianity as I understand them are true (Creation ex nihilo, God's forelnowledge and omnipotence, sovereign grace and man's depravity because of the first sin that God foreknew, eternal damnation which God foreknew and therefore willed even before sin entered the world, a last judgement with a separation in all eternity between sheep and goats etc.) and you take that in relation to the weight of evil and innocent suffering in the world, creation is evil and bad.

They're not.  I don't think you understand or could explain even a single teaching of Christianity in a more or less correct manner.
Explain all those doctrines to me then, please... I beg you to
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #349 on: August 04, 2017, 03:03:49 PM »
If I add the sentence "as it seems to me" to Everything, then Perhaps you Christians who apparently love Christ and try to imitate him will not be as rude in your posts as I am. So it you want and care,  I beg you to give your opinions in this:

I'm not sure how you can consistently take the words of the scripture to their most absurd possible personal interpretation when the examples provided demonstrate the opposite perspective to your own: the Thief on the Cross (deserving of death), Peter (denying the Lord even after seeing his power manifest), Paul (blasphemer and persecutor, in his own words), the woman who anointed Jesus's feet, Zaccheus & Matthew (tax collectors), etc. all were great sinners in one way or another, but were forgiven - some even at the last possible moment.  Forgiveness from the Lord is always possible provided that you're able to seek it.

These examples seems to me as typical of the multiple personality disorder-problem that I find in christianity and the New Testament.

You mean the Trinity?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 03:04:56 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #350 on: August 04, 2017, 03:06:34 PM »
If I add the sentence "as it seems to me" to Everything, then Perhaps you Christians who apparently love Christ and try to imitate him will not be as rude in your posts as I am. So it you want and care,  I beg you to give your opinions in this:

I'm not sure how you can consistently take the words of the scripture to their most absurd possible personal interpretation when the examples provided demonstrate the opposite perspective to your own: the Thief on the Cross (deserving of death), Peter (denying the Lord even after seeing his power manifest), Paul (blasphemer and persecutor, in his own words), the woman who anointed Jesus's feet, Zaccheus & Matthew (tax collectors), etc. all were great sinners in one way or another, but were forgiven - some even at the last possible moment.  Forgiveness from the Lord is always possible provided that you're able to seek it.

These examples seems to me as typical of the multiple personality disorder-problem that I find in christianity and the New Testament.

You mean the Trinity?
Please answer my post.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #351 on: August 04, 2017, 03:08:28 PM »
So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable.

And yet, beebert is not dishonest when he calls creation (e.g., literature, music, philosophy, or generally whatever he thinks is great) good, even while "considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable".  If Christianity cannot solve eternal suffering, certainly Beethoven can't.  But he is to be preferred over "Jewish epileptics" in beebert's world, even though children are being raped while Beethoven's 7th is playing on the radio in that world.   

Yours is a pure delusion.
Is your advice for me to kill myself?

Never.  My advice would be for you to seek medical care and counseling because you are not in a good or healthy place at all.  If you in such a good and healthy place and decided Christianity was not for you, I might disagree but would wish you all the best because I appreciate how difficult it is to live according to its teachings and sometimes I find myself wanting to escape.  But in your condition, the only decision you should be making is to listen to a physician's instructions. 

Quote
Because as I said, this hope would exist in a world without eternal hell if suffering would be found impossible to endure. But in christianity as Said, this hope is eliminated and only Faith can save one from inevitable torment that never ends. But I cant Believe. So... What would you do? Find relief in Beethoven or take the pistol and stop waiting for hell But instead embrace it immediately?

What is "belief" to you?  What is "believing"? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #352 on: August 04, 2017, 03:11:04 PM »
You reply asa fool because you are provoked by me posting like a maniac and a fool.

Finally, some progress.

Quote
I said that if the teachings of christianity as I understand them are true (Creation ex nihilo, God's forelnowledge and omnipotence, sovereign grace and man's depravity because of the first sin that God foreknew, eternal damnation which God foreknew and therefore willed even before sin entered the world, a last judgement with a separation in all eternity between sheep and goats etc.) and you take that in relation to the weight of evil and innocent suffering in the world, creation is evil and bad.

They're not.  I don't think you understand or could explain even a single teaching of Christianity in a more or less correct manner.
Explain all those doctrines to me then, please... I beg you to

You're not ready to listen.  And when you are, you won't need me to explain them. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #353 on: August 04, 2017, 03:13:03 PM »
If I add the sentence "as it seems to me" to Everything, then Perhaps you Christians who apparently love Christ and try to imitate him will not be as rude in your posts as I am. So it you want and care,  I beg you to give your opinions in this:

I'm not sure how you can consistently take the words of the scripture to their most absurd possible personal interpretation when the examples provided demonstrate the opposite perspective to your own: the Thief on the Cross (deserving of death), Peter (denying the Lord even after seeing his power manifest), Paul (blasphemer and persecutor, in his own words), the woman who anointed Jesus's feet, Zaccheus & Matthew (tax collectors), etc. all were great sinners in one way or another, but were forgiven - some even at the last possible moment.  Forgiveness from the Lord is always possible provided that you're able to seek it.

These examples seems to me as typical of the multiple personality disorder-problem that I find in christianity and the New Testament.

You mean the Trinity?
Please answer my post.

Normally that would sound like a reasonable request.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #354 on: August 04, 2017, 03:13:34 PM »
So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable.

And yet, beebert is not dishonest when he calls creation (e.g., literature, music, philosophy, or generally whatever he thinks is great) good, even while "considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable".  If Christianity cannot solve eternal suffering, certainly Beethoven can't.  But he is to be preferred over "Jewish epileptics" in beebert's world, even though children are being raped while Beethoven's 7th is playing on the radio in that world.   

Yours is a pure delusion.
Is your advice for me to kill myself?

Never.  My advice would be for you to seek medical care and counseling because you are not in a good or healthy place at all.  If you in such a good and healthy place and decided Christianity was not for you, I might disagree but would wish you all the best because I appreciate how difficult it is to live according to its teachings and sometimes I find myself wanting to escape.  But in your condition, the only decision you should be making is to listen to a physician's instructions. 

Quote
Because as I said, this hope would exist in a world without eternal hell if suffering would be found impossible to endure. But in christianity as Said, this hope is eliminated and only Faith can save one from inevitable torment that never ends. But I cant Believe. So... What would you do? Find relief in Beethoven or take the pistol and stop waiting for hell But instead embrace it immediately?

What is "belief" to you?  What is "believing"?
I have been at a psychiatrical hospital for 2 weeks even with daily care. It doesnt answer my life questions nor solves the agony arising from it... I have taken medication; no difference, etc.

Belief is trust. To trust in Christ and to have the internal movements in the soul that makes it possible for you to be a follower of him and to practice his commands... There is much to be said here, but it is the opposite of despair.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #355 on: August 04, 2017, 03:15:40 PM »
So both mor ephrem and Peter O'doran (the greatest Expletive removed --Mina on this forum) are unwilling to help me as soon as I ask seriously for it and pose some honest things?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 10:15:43 PM by minasoliman »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #356 on: August 04, 2017, 03:18:00 PM »
Is there any other reason for becoming a Christian than the belief that it is true? Why have all of you decided to be Christians? This is a well meaning question that I am interested to understand
Love.

Amen.

And on a baser level, desire.

Neither Beethoven composing, nor Beebert using (God forbid) his pistol as he offers above (please drive yourself to a hospital if you're at all serious) solve the problem of human suffering; yet Beebert is drawn to them. They are non-answers to his overwhelming question about suffering, yet rather than resent them for that, he embraces them all the same. The difference between how he treats music and Scripture may seem arbitrary and sophistical, but it makes sense to him because it is what he desires.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #357 on: August 04, 2017, 03:20:21 PM »
So both mor ephrem and Peter O'doran (the greatest expletive removed --Mina on this forum) are unwilling to help me as soon as I ask seriously for it and pose some honest things?

Why do you want more responses to more posts of yours? You don't seem to use them. What's your purpose in posting?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 10:16:34 PM by minasoliman »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #358 on: August 04, 2017, 03:22:03 PM »
So IMO, christianity is dishonest when it calls creation good considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable.

And yet, beebert is not dishonest when he calls creation (e.g., literature, music, philosophy, or generally whatever he thinks is great) good, even while "considering that eternal suffering for the multitude is inevitable".  If Christianity cannot solve eternal suffering, certainly Beethoven can't.  But he is to be preferred over "Jewish epileptics" in beebert's world, even though children are being raped while Beethoven's 7th is playing on the radio in that world.   

Yours is a pure delusion.
Is your advice for me to kill myself?

Never.  My advice would be for you to seek medical care and counseling because you are not in a good or healthy place at all.  If you in such a good and healthy place and decided Christianity was not for you, I might disagree but would wish you all the best because I appreciate how difficult it is to live according to its teachings and sometimes I find myself wanting to escape.  But in your condition, the only decision you should be making is to listen to a physician's instructions. 

Quote
Because as I said, this hope would exist in a world without eternal hell if suffering would be found impossible to endure. But in christianity as Said, this hope is eliminated and only Faith can save one from inevitable torment that never ends. But I cant Believe. So... What would you do? Find relief in Beethoven or take the pistol and stop waiting for hell But instead embrace it immediately?

What is "belief" to you?  What is "believing"?
I have been at a psychiatrical hospital for 2 weeks even with daily care. It doesnt answer my life questions nor solves the agony arising from it... I have taken medication; no difference, etc.

You don't take the medication and go through the therapy to answer your life's questions. 

Quote
Belief is trust. To trust in Christ and to have the internal movements in the soul that makes it possible for you to be a follower of him and to practice his commands... There is much to be said here, but it is the opposite of despair.

If belief is trust--and you are right about that--is your claim that you are incapable of trusting Christ? 

If the answer to that is "yes", then it seems to me you should find peace in accepting that truth about yourself and just move on, whether to belief in some other deity or none at all or Sunday Mornings with Beethoven or whatever. 

You are very clear in these threads about how Christianity is evil, but you have yet to answer the question of why you don't just move on from it. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #359 on: August 04, 2017, 03:24:05 PM »
Can someone please offer their views om this :
Here comes a very important thing for me that I would like to see the view on of as many as possible:
This is a great part of why my whole critique about christianity is resting on many of the words of Paul: What do we find in Christ? The son of God, God incarnate who become crucified, mocked, beaten, tortured etc. Now Jesus came to show the face of God, right(He who has seen me has seen the Father)? He came to free the oppressed and poor etc. And he did all this in weakness. He was weak, powerless, suffering, poor, an outcast etc. And he was the image of God. To me that suggests Only one thing: God is all These things. He is not powerful in the way that has been suggested in Christian theology. The Only way he has power is in his weakness, love, suffering etc. This IS God and Christ. But from Paul onwards, God is this all-powerful and ruling Other, that only takes the ROLE of being an outcast, a sufferer, a weak man who gets crucified, while in reality being a ruling King, a judge with absolute power. This I find untenable. God MUST be crucified every time an evil act is committed; and thereby proving his complete powerlessness and love. He can only conquer evil by being weak. He transforms hearts because he HAS no power, because he is like a lamb, and that is his power. Eternally. Because he has no other power to destroy it. That must be the truth, not the schizophrenic contradiction I find in classical theology. It is too influenced by ancient Greek and its worship of passionlessness and a God that can neither feel passion mot suffer. But I believe God the father to be filled with passion and to suffer. He IS in need of man. Is this out of Place and wrong? In what way lf so?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 03:25:23 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)