Author Topic: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life  (Read 6341 times)

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Online Asteriktos

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #225 on: August 03, 2017, 02:58:33 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #226 on: August 03, 2017, 02:58:49 PM »
This is why it is hard to take you seriously. You rattle off a bunch of names with no sources, and then when someone points out that maybe you just misunderstood something, it's off to a new list of names. That isn't a discussion, that is just baiting. Why don't you take a passage, any passage, and provide a cogent argument that that passage means what you are interpreting it to mean. Show how historical Christianity believed what you claim it believed.
Which claim, that it has been power-driven by a lust for revenge? I believe as to that, the following quotes Will do and show that the Christians, if they really believed what they said, were more criminal than their persecutors. This is not the way lf Peace nor love:


“When thou shalt despise that which is here esteemed to be death, when thou shalt fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who shall be condemned to the eternal fire, which shall afflict those even to the end that are committed to it. Then shalt thou admire those who for righteousness’ sake endure the fire that is but for a moment, and shalt count them happy when thou shalt know the nature of that fire” (Epistle to Diognetus 10:7-8).

 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Galatians 1:8-9


2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 on hell: “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among those who have believed.”

“Thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,’ these shall be damned forever; and to whomsoever He shall say, ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,’ these do receive the kingdom forever” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.28.2).

Tertullian:
"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . ."

The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.


“Let us fancy we see hell, and imagine what is worst to behold—a horrible cavern full of black flames. Sulphur, devils, dragons, fire, swords, arrows, and innumerable damned who roar in despair. Imagine the worst you can, and then say, ‘All this is nothing compared to hell.' …In that voracious subterranean cavern all the filth of the world is collected and inclosed, without exhalation or air, which must produce a most foetid pestilence…The sight is tormented by frightful devils; a holy religious saw at death two so monstrous and ugly devils, that he cried out that rather than see them again he would walk till the day of judgment on fire of sulphur and melted metal.” Spiritual Exercises, Medit. 12 by Ignatius of Loyola

“(Hell) It is a sea of fire—not a sea of the kind or dimensions we know here, but much larger and fiercer, with waves made of fire, fire of a strange and fearsome kind. There is a great abyss there, in fact, of terrible flames, and one can see fire rushing about on all sides like some wild animal. … There will be no one who can resist, no one who can escape: Christ’s gentle, peaceful face will be nowhere to be seen. But as those sentenced to work the mines are give over to rough men and see no more of their families, but only their taskmasters, so it will be there—or not simply so, but much worse. For here on can appeal to the Emperor for clemency, and have the prisoner released—but there, never. They will not be released, but will remain roasting and in such agony as cannot be expressed.” (Homilies on Matthew 43[44].4)

Combine all this with things like :

"6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles"(Romans 9:6-24)
And you have absurdities immediately.

How christianity can ever lead to anything else than heavenly utilitarism and egotism I will never know.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Indocern

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #227 on: August 03, 2017, 03:00:06 PM »
Not that I know of. But if you think he did, I'm always willing to examine any well reasoned argument. I'm not opposed to re-evaluating my position on things.
I believe he did. I find a Christ saying one shall forgive endlessly, and a Paul that seems to make forgiveness very limited and as something that is given in certain circumstances: By God's free and sovereign choice, a ones for all sacrifice , where a slip=Damnation (Hebrews 6 and 10).
According to St John Chrysostom, Hebrews is arguing that you cannot be baptized a second time. It has nothing to do with being incapable of repentance. Given that he is not confined by our modern arguments and mindsets along with the fact that he would be far more familiar with the idiocincracies of the language, I have no compelling reason to dismiss his contemplation.
Yup, Chrysostom was alone in this. And most likely wrong, or Paul (If Paul wrote this epistle which he probably didnt) was hideously bad at making his intention understandable
Interesting. Given that there is this massive multi-millennial scheme that you have uncovered and exposed, what is the philosophical foundation on which you put your feet? What is the basis of your morality? Even Nietzsche had problems with this. His solution is that nihilism will solves all these problems then Poof! Master Morality and all that.
Nietzsche a nihilist? Have you read him, really?
I didn't say he was. I said he thought it would solves these problems. For him, it is the caustic acid that will dissolve away all these current slave moralities and allow the master morality to appear. If you are going to discuss Nietzsche, you need to step up your game a bit. You seem to have a hard time comprehending basic explanations of his philosophy. I note you also didn't answer my question.
It probably would solve many problems, if Only we could first follow the most difficult task through; to stop fearing a beyond-the-grave-punishment that goes on forever

It makes me MAD how anyone could be so inhumane and monstrous as to accept this most hideous doctrine, that makes Stalin look innocent in comparsion, as true. Tell me: How can ANY sin, or let us first begin with an unrepented, in the big total, small sin of doing Everything to live ethically(say follow the ethics of Aristotle) while not believing in Christ, send one to the eternal flames? Tell me seriously how you reason

God created all religions... why people will create something divine... All humans on earth in every of their own souls have place where they can getting God's energy via prayers.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 03:00:57 PM by Indocern »

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #228 on: August 03, 2017, 03:00:11 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

trolljumpingtheshark.jpg  :P
You will see
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #229 on: August 03, 2017, 03:02:49 PM »
. . . all explain the profound things that can be found in the New Testament, but they explain it in a far more profound way. The New Testament explanation is for the less intelligent.
"At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants."  -- Matthew11:25, NASB.
But look at the history of christianity. It has been a pure arm-chair religion compared to hinduism and buddhism

Methinks the Christians in India and SE Asia would take offense  more acutely than we do, considering the suffering they've had at the hands of the Hindus and Buddhists.
Dont even dare as a Christian to make your religion look as better at behaving. We all know christianity might be the most violent religion in history
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 03:03:11 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #230 on: August 03, 2017, 03:04:31 PM »
I don't know what lies beyond the grave for the ungodly. I don't believe in anything similar to your characterization though.
I above gave you examples from holy sadists like Aquinas, Chrysostom and Tertullian. Do you Believe anything like them?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 03:04:52 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #231 on: August 03, 2017, 03:06:52 PM »
Christianity has thus far prevented me from everything called living except eating, sleeping, pee and poop

At least you're enjoying regular sex, you're doing better than many of us.
?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #232 on: August 03, 2017, 03:08:25 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

trolljumpingtheshark.jpg  :P
You will see

Oh goody, spectacle.

'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #233 on: August 03, 2017, 03:15:02 PM »
Beebert, I want to start contributing concrete quotations from the Letter to the Hebrews in the thread, in contrast to your abstract hysteria about it. So I'll just start. These will merely be excerpts that, I find, contradict your accusations' general character.

Beforehand, a word about the Letter. It was an apologetic with a specific job to do. I'll let the author sum his job in his own words:

To demonstrate that "He [the Christ] is worthy of greater glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who made the house has more honor than the house; since every house is made my someone, and he who made all things is God. And Moses was faithful in all the house of God as a servant to witness to things that are to be spoken, but Christ as the son in his own house. We are his house, if we keep our courage and pride of hope."

So the matter and method of the Letter was to teach Jewish converts well-versed in the apologetics of their own background a pious, well-founded pride in their adopted faith. To this end, the Letter comprises -- by my quick count -- no less than 80 quotations from the Hebrew scriptures.

We can assume, as you do, and the Church generally does, that the author of the Letter is the great Apostle, St. Paul. Altho myself I feel a weakness for the tradition that the author was the "fervent" St. Apollos.

And now, without more ado, the first sample I've chosen from the Letter to the Hebrews that I think confutes your raging mischaracterization and, if only you so choose, should pleasantly surprise you:

"For the consecrated [humankind] and the consecrator [the Christ] are from a single source; for which reason he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying: I will announce your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will hymn you. And again: I will put my trust in him ... Here am I and my children whom God gave me. Since, then, his children share his flesh and blood, so likewise he too partakes of theirs, so as by his death to abolish the one who has power over death, that is, the devil; and set free those who through fear of death had been condemned to slavery all their lives. ... Hence he needed to be made like his brothers in every way ... for by the fact that he himself suffered through trial, he can help those who undergo trial."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #234 on: August 03, 2017, 03:16:08 PM »
Dont even dare as a Christian to make your religion look as better at behaving. We all know christianity might be the most violent religion in history 

This is laughable.  Whose lies are you parroting this time?

You are clearly trolling at this point.  No sense in engaging further.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #235 on: August 03, 2017, 03:22:12 PM »
Dont even dare as a Christian to make your religion look as better at behaving. We all know christianity might be the most violent religion in history 

This is laughable.  Whose lies are you parroting this time?

You are clearly trolling at this point.  No sense in engaging further.
Christianity can keep up with anybody in the murder contest. You can still find Christians today who will passionately defend the slaughters of the Medieval Crusades. You can use Christianity to kill abortion doctors, massacre Muslims in Bosnia or Kosovo, or launch a preemptive war. Jesus is more flexible than some people might think. You have inquisitions, hideous violence in Russia, forced conversions etc. I am quite sure christianity is at least top 2 violent religions.

And you quote was more of a trolling lie than mind when you tried to make hindus the bad guys as if Asia have lever fallen prey of the violence of fanatical christians
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 03:22:34 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #236 on: August 03, 2017, 03:24:45 PM »
Beebert, I want to start contributing concrete quotations from the Letter to the Hebrews in the thread, in contrast to your abstract hysteria about it. So I'll just start. These will merely be excerpts that, I find, contradict your accusations' general character.

Beforehand, a word about the Letter. It was an apologetic with a specific job to do. I'll let the author sum his job in his own words:

To demonstrate that "He [the Christ] is worthy of greater glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who made the house has more honor than the house; since every house is made my someone, and he who made all things is God. And Moses was faithful in all the house of God as a servant to witness to things that are to be spoken, but Christ as the son in his own house. We are his house, if we keep our courage and pride of hope."

So the matter and method of the Letter was to teach Jewish converts well-versed in the apologetics of their own background a pious, well-founded pride in their adopted faith. To this end, the Letter comprises -- by my quick count -- no less than 80 quotations from the Hebrew scriptures.

We can assume, as you do, and the Church generally does, that the author of the Letter is the great Apostle, St. Paul. Altho myself I feel a weakness for the tradition that the author was the "fervent" St. Apollos.

And now, without more ado, the first sample I've chosen from the Letter to the Hebrews that I think confutes your raging mischaracterization and, if only you so choose, should pleasantly surprise you:

"For the consecrated [humankind] and the consecrator [the Christ] are from a single source; for which reason he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying: I will announce your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will hymn you. And again: I will put my trust in him ... Here am I and my children whom God gave me. Since, then, his children share his flesh and blood, so likewise he too partakes of theirs, so as by his death to abolish the one who has power over death, that is, the devil; and set free those who through fear of death had been condemned to slavery all their lives. ... Hence he needed to be made like his brothers in every way ... for by the fact that he himself suffered through trial, he can help those who undergo trial."
And yet, christianity has caused more fear of death than the opposite . Do you want me to give you quotes from Scripture that makes me puke? Is that it?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #237 on: August 03, 2017, 03:35:28 PM »
I attempted to engage in a reasonable discussion, but I really don't have any desire to respond to google lists of verses that offend you. You're reaching a point of hysteria that I don't think is mentally healthy, so I'm  just going to bow out here.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #238 on: August 03, 2017, 03:36:10 PM »
"Keep encouraging each other every day, while it is called today [i.e., in the present], so that no one of you may be hardened by the beguilement of sin; for we are partners of the Christ, if only we can keep our original condition firm to the end."

"Once more he sets a certain day, today; as he says through David after all that time, as has been said here before: Today, if you hear his voice, do not close your hearts."

"For the high priest [the Christ] we have is not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, since he has suffered all the trials we have (except that he did not sin). So let us confidently approach the throne of favor, so that we may receive mercy and find favor to rescue us in our time of need."

"And in his [the Christ's] days of the flesh he addressed entreaties and supplications to him who could save him from death, with strong outcry and tears; and after being heard because of piety, even though he was the son, he learned obedience from his sufferings; and, made perfect, he became for all who obey him the cause of everlasting salvation ... ."

"God is not unfair, so that he could forget your work and the love you have shown for his name, serving the saints in the past and serving them still. But we desire that each one of you should show the same enthusiasm, to the last, toward the fulfillment of your hope; not to be dull, but to imitate those who, by faith and patience, are given a share in the promise."

"God ... guaranteed it [his promise to bless] with an oath; so that ... we who have taken refuge with him may have strong assurance that we shall grasp the hope that lies before us. This hope we have as an anchor for our life, steady and secure ... ."



All emphases in all these quotes are mine.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 03:36:41 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #239 on: August 03, 2017, 03:39:47 PM »
... Do you want me to give you quotes from Scripture that makes me puke? Is that it?

Yes, indeed, as I've said a dozen times, I and basic decency want you to start providing these scriptures that supposedly exist and supposedly are so wicked, and supposedly found your characterizations of St. Paul et al. I am also still waiting for the scriptures you promised that supposedly show Christ teaching various opposite things to St. Paul. Those seem particularly important to me. Yes, again and again, man up.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #240 on: August 03, 2017, 04:07:49 PM »
... Do you want me to give you quotes from Scripture that makes me puke? Is that it?

Yes, indeed, as I've said a dozen times, I and basic decency want you to start providing these scriptures that supposedly exist and supposedly are so wicked, and supposedly found your characterizations of St. Paul et al. I am also still waiting for the scriptures you promised that supposedly show Christ teaching various opposite things to St. Paul. Those seem particularly important to me. Yes, again and again, man up.
I gave The Trisagion like 10 quotes of Christian insanity, which I want you too to read, and reply to. Not to do like a typical chrisrian (The Trisagion) and flee as soon as things get difficult.

Here are more quotes:

"He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.”[f]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet”[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

"We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."

"So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8     do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
    though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
    I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”[c]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief."

"For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

"We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil."

 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

 "Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever."

He made atonement? What happened to forgiveness? That is not forgiveness. That is punishing someone else

"Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven."

What is it with this jewish obsession of priests and sacrifices? A violent human who starts doing violence against himself through fasts and ascetic struggles because he has reflected too much and sees his natural drives as evil, and instead of physically tormenting he does it mentally: His will turns against himself in self-hatred.

Paul, the Priest of priests. Here we have an examole of this new way to domination by changing the form of sacrifice:

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!"

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins"

It seems one sacrifice is stressed. Eucharist, confession, etc... All helpless means for most.



"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Ugh. At least explain yourself.

"But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved."

Ugh. Primitive.

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

Help! Fresh air please!!!
These are just examples from one Book. I will give you 50 more But let us start here
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #241 on: August 03, 2017, 04:20:01 PM »
"Hope is introduced by which we draw near to God."

"I [the Lord] will inscribe them [my new laws] on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they need not instruct each other -- each man saying to his fellow citizen or brother -- 'Know the Lord'; because all of them -- from small to great -- will know me."

"Let us study each other to stimulate love and good works, not failing to attend our own meetings as is the way of some, but encouraging each other all the moreso as you see the Day coming nearer."

"Remember the days that have been ... for you suffered along with those who were imprisoned, and you accepted the seizure of your propery with joy, knowing that you have a greater possession that endures. Do not lose your courage, which brings a great reward, for you have need of endurance in order to do the will of God and win the promise."

"By faith Abel brought to God a better offering than Cain ... . ... By faith Noah, divinely warned of things not yet apparent, took careful thought and built the ark for the salvation of his household ... . ... By faith also Sarah herself found strength to give birth ... . ... By faith Moses, grown big, refused to be called the son of Pharoah's daughter, choosing to suffer with the people of God ... considering the despised estate of the Christ a richer thing than the treasures of Egypt. ... By faith they walked across the Red Sea as if on dry land. ... By faith they did works of righteousness ... ."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #242 on: August 03, 2017, 04:29:38 PM »
I didn't flee because things got difficult. I've engaged you on this topic quite extensively both in this thread and in the other. You flatter yourself if you think you his is the first time anyone has ever thrown up these or similar verses as an argument vs Christianity. I honestly do think you have an obsessive compulsive disorder that needs professional help. This isn't healthy behavior, and you admitted that yourself with your inability to do anything out of fear of eternal torment. Seek help. Seriously. It doesn't even need to be a Christian psychologist. Pretty much any competent one will do.
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #243 on: August 03, 2017, 04:45:50 PM »
... Do you want me to give you quotes from Scripture that makes me puke? Is that it?

Yes, indeed, as I've said a dozen times, I and basic decency want you to start providing these scriptures that supposedly exist and supposedly are so wicked, and supposedly found your characterizations of St. Paul et al. I am also still waiting for the scriptures you promised that supposedly show Christ teaching various opposite things to St. Paul. Those seem particularly important to me. Yes, again and again, man up.
I gave The Trisagion like 10 quotes of Christian insanity, which I want you too to read, and reply to.

I must have missed that; sorry.

Quote
[Hebrews chapter 10 and one or two juvenile one-liners]

These are just examples from one Book. I will give you 50 more But let us start here

Start here? Surely you mean repeat, here? You and I have gone over these passages in detail in the past in one of your numerous other complaint threads.

However, I'm glad to go over the chapter again. The first thing you're missing is a simple thing -- the rest of the essay. The Letter to the Hebrews is a coherent essay that begins with the first chapter. By the time we get to chapter ten, the author is transitioning from ( a ) his arguments of how Jesus can be proved from Hebrew scriptures to supersede the Aaronic priesthood to ( b ) bringing things home to his audience, making their commitment to Christianity personal and permanent. So what he's describing here is how fitting it is, again in terms of Hebrew scriptures, for he who has begun a new relationship not to escape to the old. He goes about this, over the next couple of chapters, in various ways. The part that bothers you is based flatly on the fatal, capital nature of much of Moses' law, which his audience accepted as right and as a proper manifestation of God. However, you cannot stop there. He also appeals to their previous courage, when they converted, even (possibly) when they were persecuted Jews in Rome. He also cajoles them as friends, heaping their futures with best hopes and wishes. He finally points to the many heroes of their own old faith to rally them.

You see, the critical question in this section of the essay is this:

Why shouldn't I, as a Jewish Christian, simply retreat to the Jewish plan of salvation again if it become expedient? Isn't God also the God of the Jews?

And the Letter's answer is:

No; Christ has called you and you are his now; do not "trample down the son of God" and "insulted" God's offer of favor toward you; do not turn back; have courage and trust and go onward.

Now, you would sum his arguments with, "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!" but I would sum it otherwise, with, "Do not lose your courage ... We do not belong to faltering ... Run with tenacity the course that lies before us." You must just read with comprehension, which means, comprehending or holding the whole.

And please do refer back to our previous discussion in another thread on the same passage, where I elucidated some other points.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #244 on: August 03, 2017, 04:48:36 PM »
"Hope is introduced by which we draw near to God."

"I [the Lord] will inscribe them [my new laws] on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they need not instruct each other -- each man saying to his fellow citizen or brother -- 'Know the Lord'; because all of them -- from small to great -- will know me."

"Let us study each other to stimulate love and good works, not failing to attend our own meetings as is the way of some, but encouraging each other all the moreso as you see the Day coming nearer."

"Remember the days that have been ... for you suffered along with those who were imprisoned, and you accepted the seizure of your propery with joy, knowing that you have a greater possession that endures. Do not lose your courage, which brings a great reward, for you have need of endurance in order to do the will of God and win the promise."

"By faith Abel brought to God a better offering than Cain ... . ... By faith Noah, divinely warned of things not yet apparent, took careful thought and built the ark for the salvation of his household ... . ... By faith also Sarah herself found strength to give birth ... . ... By faith Moses, grown big, refused to be called the son of Pharoah's daughter, choosing to suffer with the people of God ... considering the despised estate of the Christ a richer thing than the treasures of Egypt. ... By faith they walked across the Red Sea as if on dry land. ... By faith they did works of righteousness ... ."

These all are for the "elect", a word that alone makes me shudder. Romans 5-9 makes it clear for all that can draw logical conclusions. And not to mention all that talk from the gospels about blinding eyes and making one incapable of hearing. All talk about God's chosen ones. Justified by Faith... It has been used Only as an excuse to not act like Jesus. 0.5 percent of all Christians actually sell all that have, leave their family and "hate" them, love their enemies, walks two Miles instead of one, turns the other cheek, Leaves Everything behind. No they just want heaven for them and hell for the enemies . Protestants by obsessively defining "jusrifitication by faith", "salvation by Faith through grace", "predestination and election" in order to stop their neurotic fear and prevent taking the burden of actually doing whag Christ says etc. Catholics by trusting the pope, confessing sins obsessively, praying to Mary, worshiping dogmas and authorities. And orthodox by worshiping the fathers as if they for some reason knew basically everything, thinking that as long as they confess to a Priest and drink wine and bread they will be saved. WHAT HAPPENED to actually in reality caring about the world? I find not many doing that, and those who do either reject some dogmas or are so great they Believe act as if they worship Another God than Jehovah of the Old Testament
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #245 on: August 03, 2017, 04:50:05 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

trolljumpingtheshark.jpg  :P
You will see

No. I am about to develop a philosophy.

This is one of the lines I've never been able to cross, no matter how big my head got. That is, the idea that of all the billions of people who have existed, the tens of thousands of philosophies and religions, and the hundreds of millions of texts and oral defenses and lived examples of those belief systems, that none of them had yet got things right, and thus the world had to wait until your or I showed up to develop the right system of ideas and practices.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #246 on: August 03, 2017, 04:55:16 PM »
Beebert, I wonder (now that you're hopefully reading Hebrews for yourself) whether, if you were able to think of these passages as a Jewish Rabbi writing to his congregation, you wouldn't react quite less angrily and actually think, He does some very interesting and perceptive things with the scriptures and stories of his tradition.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline William T

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #247 on: August 03, 2017, 04:55:51 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

trolljumpingtheshark.jpg  :P
You will see

No. I am about to develop a philosophy.

This is one of the lines I've never been able to cross, no matter how big my head got. That is, the idea that of all the billions of people who have existed, the tens of thousands of philosophies and religions, and the hundreds of millions of texts and oral defenses and lived examples of those belief systems, that none of them had yet got things right, and thus the world had to wait until your or I showed up to develop the right system of ideas and practices.

You just crossed the line mister, that's the final straw...I'm going to make you a part of my philosophy I'm developing now.  You won't be so smug when I'm through with you, just you wait.

Now do you want to be called a fundamentalist, reactionary, anti-social, hypocritical, beta male, untermench, alienated, a coward, a slave, herdlike, victim of a false conscience, or sexually repressed in my little scheme?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 05:01:02 PM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #248 on: August 03, 2017, 05:06:38 PM »
"[Perhaps] you have forgotten that appeal that speaks to you as sons [from the Hebrew proverbs]: 'My son, do not think lightly of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when you are punished by him; for whom the Lord loves he disciplines, and he whips every son whom he acknowledges.' Put up with discipline! God treats you as sons. Where is there a son whose father does not discipline him? If you go without the discipline which all are born to share, you are bastards, not sons. Also, we had the fathers of our flesh to discipline us, and we have let them; should we not far rather submit to the father of our spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a few days, as it seemed right to them, but he does it for our good so that we can participate in his sanctity. All discipline, for the moment, seems to belong not with pleasure but with pain; but later, to those who have been through it, it yields a peaceful harvest or righteousness. So straighten up the slack arms and the tottering knees, and take steps with your feet, so that your lameness may not put you off, but rather be set right."

"Let brotherly love abide. Do not forget your hospitality, for through this some have entertained angels without knowing it. Remember the prisoners as if you were in prison with them, the abused as if you were so in body."

"Let your living be without avarice, making do with what is on hand; for he himself said: I will never let you go, I will never forsake you. So that we can be confident and say: The Lord is my aid, I shall not fear. What can man do to me?"

"Do not be carried away by strange and complex teachings ..."

"Jesus ... suffered outside the gate. Let us therefore go to him outside the camp and bear the abuse he bore ... . For him let us offer a sacrifice of praise to God continually ... . And do not forget to do good, and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased."

"And I ask you, brothers, to be patient with my message of exhortation, for I have written to you in only a few words."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #249 on: August 03, 2017, 05:22:53 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

trolljumpingtheshark.jpg  :P
You will see

No. I am about to develop a philosophy.

This is one of the lines I've never been able to cross, no matter how big my head got. That is, the idea that of all the billions of people who have existed, the tens of thousands of philosophies and religions, and the hundreds of millions of texts and oral defenses and lived examples of those belief systems, that none of them had yet got things right, and thus the world had to wait until your or I showed up to develop the right system of ideas and practices.

You just crossed the line mister, that's the final straw...I'm going to make you a part of my philosophy I'm developing now.  You won't be so smug when I'm through with you, just you wait.

Now do you want to be called a fundamentalist, reactionary, anti-social, hypocritical, beta male, untermench, alienated, a coward, a slave, herdlike, victim of a false conscience, or sexually repressed in my little scheme?
What you two dont really get, is that Wittgenstein was right. A philosopher doesnt want the solution to everything really, he just enjoys philosophizing. It is his game and language. Just like art, it is a way to live, to escape reality perhaps, or maybe to live not in order to know everything, but to make the quest for knowledge a meaning of its own. I dont develop a philosophy in order to provide mankind with all solutions, But in order to create. That is meaningful. Who cares about imposing things on others? Only power-seeking, fearful people to that. I must create My own values and truths without imposing it on others. The strength to do that would be liberation, and that then entails not believing what others say without exceptionally good reason for it. Judgement, immortal soul, etc. What really good reason do I find for believing it? Had not the tremendous threats imposed on others by christianity been so enormous and terryfying, and if it hadnt Said "Reject our belief, which is based on a historical event and you are damned!", I would have rejected all its basic tenets like immortality of the soul, heaven and hell, last judgement etc a long time ago. I would even reject the need for a savior. To me, art would be my savior. People that are death that I can REALLY communicate with through their art; Beethoven, Schubert, Bach, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Kierkegaard, Strindberg, Leopardi, etc. I find this way of imposing ideas on others that Christianity does as I explained here to be tremendously cruel.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #250 on: August 03, 2017, 05:38:26 PM »
These all are for the "elect", a word that alone makes me shudder. Romans 5-9 makes it clear for all that can draw logical conclusions. And not to mention all that talk from the gospels about blinding eyes and making one incapable of hearing. All talk about God's chosen ones. Justified by Faith... It has been used Only as an excuse to not act like Jesus. 0.5 percent of all Christians actually sell all that have, leave their family and "hate" them, love their enemies, walks two Miles instead of one, turns the other cheek, Leaves Everything behind. No they just want heaven for them and hell for the enemies . Protestants by obsessively defining "jusrifitication by faith", "salvation by Faith through grace", "predestination and election" in order to stop their neurotic fear and prevent taking the burden of actually doing whag Christ says etc. Catholics by trusting the pope, confessing sins obsessively, praying to Mary, worshiping dogmas and authorities. And orthodox by worshiping the fathers as if they for some reason knew basically everything, thinking that as long as they confess to a Priest and drink wine and bread they will be saved. WHAT HAPPENED to actually in reality caring about the world? I find not many doing that, and those who do either reject some dogmas or are so great they Believe act as if they worship Another God than Jehovah of the Old Testament

In other words, the Scriptures (to the very limited extent you know them) are set-pieces for your own drama. Well I guess, as they say to actors if not dramaturges, break a leg.

Perhaps you'll eventually reach a frame of mind in which you're willing to learn what Christianity really teaches about your "problem passages." In case, I'll quote a great St. Teacher, Gregory of Nyssa, here:

"We will therefore examine what debts human nature owes, and, on the other hand, what debts it is in our power to forgive. For from the knowledge of these a fair perception of the Divine goodness may be derived. Let us therefore start from an account of man's debts towards God.

"In the first place, man had to pay a penalty to God because he had separated himself from his Maker and deserted to the enemy, and thus become a runaway and apostate from his nature Master. Secondly, because he had exchanged for the liberty of his free will the wicked slavery of sin, he preferred the tyranny of the power of destruction to the companionship of God.  But what greater evil is there than not to look at the beauty of the Creator, and to turn one's eyes towards shameful sin instead? What kind of punishment ought to be assigned to the man who scorns the Divine goodness and prefers the baits of the evil one? Which treatise could enumerate all the sins? The defacing of the Image and the destruction of the Divine impress which was formed in us when we were first created? ...

"When ... we return to ourselves and remember the Heavenly Father, we may rightly use these words: 'Forgive us our debts.' ... But such words are ineffectual and do not reach the Divine hearing unless our conscience cries in unison with us that it is good to impart mercy. ... 'You ask me to love men, and yourself do not give love to your neighbor? ... You pray that I may blot out what is written against you, and you preserve carefully the acknowledgements of those who owe you something? ... Your debtor is in prison while you are in church?' Your prayer cannot be heard because the voice of him who suffers is drowning in it. ... You must be your own judge, your own lawgiver. ...

"If we approach the Benefactor, we should ourselves be benefactors; if we go to Him who is good and just, we should ourselves be the same. Because He is forbearing and kind, we should also be forbearing and kind, and so with all the other things. For He is benign and gentle, He communicates good things and dispenses mercy to everyone -- to all these qualities, and whatever else we may see in the Divine Being, we should be assimilated by our free will. ... Therefore it is absolutely necessary that a man who approaches the charity of God should rid himself of all callousness. And if a man is free from everything that comes under the idea of evil he becomes, so to speak, a god by his very way of life, since he verifies in himself what reason finds in the Divine Nature. ...

" 'Why,' He says, 'do you go to God crouching in fear like a slave because your conscience pricks you? Why do you shut out holy audacity which is inherent in the freedom of the soul because it has been joined to its very essence from the beginning? Why do you offer language of abject servility to Him who regards only deeds? Yet you may lawfully say whatever is worthy of God, because your mind is free in its own right. Be yourself your own judge, give yourself the sentence of acquittal. ...

"As to those who would achieve goodness, God is proposed for imitation according to the words of the Apostle, 'Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ' ... ."


Manly words, words of challenge and penetration, words of will and action as well as of belief and contemplation. Christian words. May they speak to you some day.


[All emphases mine.]
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #251 on: August 03, 2017, 05:40:18 PM »
Beebert, I wonder (now that you're hopefully reading Hebrews for yourself) whether, if you were able to think of these passages as a Jewish Rabbi writing to his congregation, you wouldn't react quite less angrily and actually think, He does some very interesting and perceptive things with the scriptures and stories of his tradition.
Stop talking as if I haven't read the New Testament just because I find it cruel and that it is leading me to schizophrenia or worse. Perhaps I would. I find it an epistle that shows great thinking in terms of understanding tradition and interpreting scripture in a certain context. But for me, the whole mentality is wrong to begin with. We human beings might feel the need to forgiveness, and in many cases We do reject life and alienate ourselves, But life is so immensely complex, that to me, a God who doesnt say eternally and unconditionally yes to all his creation no matter What, is not a good God and not worth worshiping, even if it leads to eternal torture. If on the other hand only I am the problem, things are different. If God says eternally yes while I refuse for some reason, then I can accept but I CANT find that in the New Testament. Because then there would Be no last judgement. What I find in the gospels: I am a problem for God according to the Gospels, because I offend him somehow, perhaps his honour. And the gospels make me feel like even My birth is an offence to him, so why not just kill myself? He loves me only if I Accept a 2000 year old sacrifice recorded in a book that I must believe in but am incapable of trusting. He is the one that actively punishes, rejects and casts me into hell forever because of my deeds, it is a no from both sides. If I say no, he says not yes but no. Even if I once say no under the wrong circumstances at the wrong time once, he says eternally no it seems. And the yes I am incapable of without his yes and woing. This is mental torture beyond all else to me.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #252 on: August 03, 2017, 05:40:46 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

trolljumpingtheshark.jpg  :P
You will see

No. I am about to develop a philosophy.

This is one of the lines I've never been able to cross, no matter how big my head got. That is, the idea that of all the billions of people who have existed, the tens of thousands of philosophies and religions, and the hundreds of millions of texts and oral defenses and lived examples of those belief systems, that none of them had yet got things right, and thus the world had to wait until your or I showed up to develop the right system of ideas and practices.

You just crossed the line mister, that's the final straw...I'm going to make you a part of my philosophy I'm developing now.  You won't be so smug when I'm through with you, just you wait.

Now do you want to be called a fundamentalist, reactionary, anti-social, hypocritical, beta male, untermench, alienated, a coward, a slave, herdlike, victim of a false conscience, or sexually repressed in my little scheme?
What you two dont really get, is that Wittgenstein was right. A philosopher doesnt want the solution to everything really, he just enjoys philosophizing. It is his game and language. Just like art, it is a way to live, to escape reality perhaps, or maybe to live not in order to know everything, but to make the quest for knowledge a meaning of its own. I dont develop a philosophy in order to provide mankind with all solutions, But in order to create. That is meaningful. Who cares about imposing things on others? Only power-seeking, fearful people to that. I must create My own values and truths without imposing it on others. The strength to do that would be liberation, and that then entails not believing what others say without exceptionally good reason for it. Judgement, immortal soul, etc. What really good reason do I find for believing it? Had not the tremendous threats imposed on others by christianity been so enormous and terryfying, and if it hadnt Said "Reject our belief, which is based on a historical event and you are damned!", I would have rejected all its basic tenets like immortality of the soul, heaven and hell, last judgement etc a long time ago. I would even reject the need for a savior. To me, art would be my savior. People that are death that I can REALLY communicate with through their art; Beethoven, Schubert, Bach, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Kierkegaard, Strindberg, Leopardi, etc. I find this way of imposing ideas on others that Christianity does as I explained here to be tremendously cruel.

So ( 1 ) keep your game, or whatever it is, decent and stop blaspheming and making yourself look entirely ignorant, and ( 2 ) (this is just a suggestion) go do it on somebody else's front porch. What lured you here?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #253 on: August 03, 2017, 05:42:23 PM »
Beebert, I wonder (now that you're hopefully reading Hebrews for yourself) whether, if you were able to think of these passages as a Jewish Rabbi writing to his congregation, you wouldn't react quite less angrily and actually think, He does some very interesting and perceptive things with the scriptures and stories of his tradition.
Stop talking as if I haven't read the New Testament just because I find it cruel and that it is leading me to schizophrenia or worse. Perhaps I would. I find it an epistle that shows great thinking in terms of understanding tradition and interpreting scripture in a certain context. But for me, the whole mentality is wrong to begin with. We human beings might feel the need to forgiveness, and in many cases We do reject life and alienate ourselves, But life is so immensely complex, that to me, a God who doesnt say eternally and unconditionally yes to all his creation no matter What, is not a good God and not worth worshiping, even if it leads to eternal torture. If on the other hand only I am the problem, things are different. If God says eternally yes while I refuse for some reason, then I can accept but I CANT find that in the New Testament. Because then there would Be no last judgement. What I find in the gospels: I am a problem for God according to the Gospels, because I offend him somehow, perhaps his honour. And the gospels make me feel like even My birth is an offence to him, so why not just kill myself? He loves me only if I Accept a 2000 year old sacrifice recorded in a book that I must believe in but am incapable of trusting. He is the one that actively punishes, rejects and casts me into hell forever because of my deeds, it is a no from both sides. If I say no, he says not yes but no. Even if I once say no under the wrong circumstances at the wrong time once, he says eternally no it seems. And the yes I am incapable of without his yes and woing. This is mental torture beyond all else to me.

The simple fact that you are unable to discuss the corpus in material terms of passage or paraphrase has to be accepted as ignorance. You don't really know. If this is not what we should accept, you have to prove why not against simple appearance of fact.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #254 on: August 03, 2017, 05:42:26 PM »
What are you saying about the man that preached God to gentiles? An apostle that was chosen by God Himself? Which is the difference of Paul and Jesus? I can't find one. Paul taught love. The Lord taught love. Paul confess Jesus as Lord and God and Jesus said that too. And much more... The writings of Paul can change lives! Paul inspires so many things. He wrote one of the best passages in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13). Paul is misunderstood by many because they don't know the teachings of the Church, the Old Testament and Second Temple Judaism.
So Jesus and Paul are the same to you? I find in Paul a completely different spirit, a surpressed want to dominate combined with a wish for all things to be over. I find occasional bursts of joy and insight, probably because of epilepsy, but in the end a man who didnt understand the consequences of his writings. The world would have been a better Place if he had remained quiet or at least explained himself. You call his preaching love. Just because I say 11 times that love is important doesnt mean I stand for it in depth, reading Paul in its entirety eliminates the idea for me that he preached love, no matter how beautiful corinthians 13 is (though these days I cant even read this chapter without feeling sick). And a God who poops out new men in to existence when we are already too many, in to a world of misery and evil, without their consent and under the threat of ETERNAL hell, while calling himself both all-loving and all-powerful (what a great contradiction considering how these words have been used)... Is this love? What else to it? The church's and God's condemnation against the man who criticizes Paul who was just a man. This is life-killing and a crime against creativity. Just take the behavior of the churches against Nazi Germany! It is the epitome of turning a great man's (Jesus) message into nihilism. These Christian cowards make me puke! They should stand for what they preach or else be honest enough to leave their faith immediately that they havent got in their hearts. But then when one looks to Paul and his pathetic worship of the role of the greatest evil that exists; the state, one ceases to wonder. To say that God is a ruler of the state or anything that even gives a hint to something close to such a belief is hideous, and of course you find it in the jurist and politician Paul. His promotion of slavery is another problem. Yes to compare this insect with someone like Buddha for example, or Socrates, or even Francis of Assisi, is almost criminal it seems to me.

MOD HAT ON:

I completely missed this post.  You have been skirting close to insulting God and the saints.  You have now directly called St. Paul an insect.

In this section, you have the freedom to disagree with Orthodoxy and with Christianity in general.  But you have no right to insult the saints, let alone God in this site.  So to help you remember that, I will give you a 10% warning.  If you like to appeal this warning, ONLY send me a PM.  If you reply to my green text publicly, you run the risk of incurring an even worse penalty.

Hit the brakes in your posts and reconsider the way you would like to present your heresies.

Mina

This just seems to me like another example in favour for Nietzsche's thoughts over Paul's, if you know what I mean. God is both life "giver" and "destroyer" in the end. I want to be destroyed as in non-existence rather then living on these terms and it is exceptionally hard for me to see how one could feel otherwise. Had God been kind or wise it seems to me, he would have prevented me from coming to life. So my only conclusion is: He wants me destroyed in a much more terrifying way: Eternal destruction as in torture torture torture and torture

MOD HAT ON:

JUst an FYI, I let this one slide as people might tell earlier.  But next time I won't be so forgiving.  Don't challenge my mod directive publicly again.

Mina

PS if you're really in the mood to challenge my green text angrily, take it out on me via private messaging.  That way, you won't get any penalties.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #255 on: August 03, 2017, 05:43:48 PM »
These all are for the "elect", a word that alone makes me shudder. Romans 5-9 makes it clear for all that can draw logical conclusions. And not to mention all that talk from the gospels about blinding eyes and making one incapable of hearing. All talk about God's chosen ones. Justified by Faith... It has been used Only as an excuse to not act like Jesus. 0.5 percent of all Christians actually sell all that have, leave their family and "hate" them, love their enemies, walks two Miles instead of one, turns the other cheek, Leaves Everything behind. No they just want heaven for them and hell for the enemies . Protestants by obsessively defining "jusrifitication by faith", "salvation by Faith through grace", "predestination and election" in order to stop their neurotic fear and prevent taking the burden of actually doing whag Christ says etc. Catholics by trusting the pope, confessing sins obsessively, praying to Mary, worshiping dogmas and authorities. And orthodox by worshiping the fathers as if they for some reason knew basically everything, thinking that as long as they confess to a Priest and drink wine and bread they will be saved. WHAT HAPPENED to actually in reality caring about the world? I find not many doing that, and those who do either reject some dogmas or are so great they Believe act as if they worship Another God than Jehovah of the Old Testament

In other words, the Scriptures (to the very limited extent you know them) are set-pieces for your own drama. Well I guess, as they say to actors if not dramaturges, break a leg.

Perhaps you'll eventually reach a frame of mind in which you're willing to learn what Christianity really teaches about your "problem passages." In case, I'll quote a great St. Teacher, Gregory of Nyssa, here:

"We will therefore examine what debts human nature owes, and, on the other hand, what debts it is in our power to forgive. For from the knowledge of these a fair perception of the Divine goodness may be derived. Let us therefore start from an account of man's debts towards God.

"In the first place, man had to pay a penalty to God because he had separated himself from his Maker and deserted to the enemy, and thus become a runaway and apostate from his nature Master. Secondly, because he had exchanged for the liberty of his free will the wicked slavery of sin, he preferred the tyranny of the power of destruction to the companionship of God.  But what greater evil is there than not to look at the beauty of the Creator, and to turn one's eyes towards shameful sin instead? What kind of punishment ought to be assigned to the man who scorns the Divine goodness and prefers the baits of the evil one? Which treatise could enumerate all the sins? The defacing of the Image and the destruction of the Divine impress which was formed in us when we were first created? ...

"When ... we return to ourselves and remember the Heavenly Father, we may rightly use these words: 'Forgive us our debts.' ... But such words are ineffectual and do not reach the Divine hearing unless our conscience cries in unison with us that it is good to impart mercy. ... 'You ask me to love men, and yourself do not give love to your neighbor? ... You pray that I may blot out what is written against you, and you preserve carefully the acknowledgements of those who owe you something? ... Your debtor is in prison while you are in church?' Your prayer cannot be heard because the voice of him who suffers is drowning in it. ... You must be your own judge, your own lawgiver. ...

"If we approach the Benefactor, we should ourselves be benefactors; if we go to Him who is good and just, we should ourselves be the same. Because He is forbearing and kind, we should also be forbearing and kind, and so with all the other things. For He is benign and gentle, He communicates good things and dispenses mercy to everyone -- to all these qualities, and whatever else we may see in the Divine Being, we should be assimilated by our free will. ... Therefore it is absolutely necessary that a man who approaches the charity of God should rid himself of all callousness. And if a man is free from everything that comes under the idea of evil he becomes, so to speak, a god by his very way of life, since he verifies in himself what reason finds in the Divine Nature. ...

" 'Why,' He says, 'do you go to God crouching in fear like a slave because your conscience pricks you? Why do you shut out holy audacity which is inherent in the freedom of the soul because it has been joined to its very essence from the beginning? Why do you offer language of abject servility to Him who regards only deeds? Yet you may lawfully say whatever is worthy of God, because your mind is free in its own right. Be yourself your own judge, give yourself the sentence of acquittal. ...

"As to those who would achieve goodness, God is proposed for imitation according to the words of the Apostle, 'Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ' ... ."


Manly words, words of challenge and penetration, words of will and action as well as of belief and contemplation. Christian words. May they speak to you some day.


[All emphases mine.]

Gregory of Nyssa I have always liked, even praised. He is by far my favourite church father and I would embrace his thought if I could, but in the end, I believe his hopeful thinking was false... Now I am prepared for your accusation, saying something like "You can But your Vanity and Pride makes you unwilling"
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 05:46:04 PM by beebert »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #256 on: August 03, 2017, 05:46:18 PM »
Beebert, I wonder (now that you're hopefully reading Hebrews for yourself) whether, if you were able to think of these passages as a Jewish Rabbi writing to his congregation, you wouldn't react quite less angrily and actually think, He does some very interesting and perceptive things with the scriptures and stories of his tradition.
Stop talking as if I haven't read the New Testament just because I find it cruel and that it is leading me to schizophrenia or worse. Perhaps I would. I find it an epistle that shows great thinking in terms of understanding tradition and interpreting scripture in a certain context. But for me, the whole mentality is wrong to begin with. We human beings might feel the need to forgiveness, and in many cases We do reject life and alienate ourselves, But life is so immensely complex, that to me, a God who doesnt say eternally and unconditionally yes to all his creation no matter What, is not a good God and not worth worshiping, even if it leads to eternal torture. If on the other hand only I am the problem, things are different. If God says eternally yes while I refuse for some reason, then I can accept but I CANT find that in the New Testament. Because then there would Be no last judgement. What I find in the gospels: I am a problem for God according to the Gospels, because I offend him somehow, perhaps his honour. And the gospels make me feel like even My birth is an offence to him, so why not just kill myself? He loves me only if I Accept a 2000 year old sacrifice recorded in a book that I must believe in but am incapable of trusting. He is the one that actively punishes, rejects and casts me into hell forever because of my deeds, it is a no from both sides. If I say no, he says not yes but no. Even if I once say no under the wrong circumstances at the wrong time once, he says eternally no it seems. And the yes I am incapable of without his yes and woing. This is mental torture beyond all else to me.

Dude, you are your own mental torture beyond all else.  There are people more psychologically stable in their lives who are able to accept or reject the Bible freely.  You are your own worst nightmare, and it's really a hopeless case to tell you go see a doctor because we said it so many times.  In the end, it doesn't matter if you read the NT, you still haven't really "read" it.  You only read INTO what you want to read.

And people have been posting for 6 pages with you, because they care about you.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 05:47:29 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #257 on: August 03, 2017, 05:51:28 PM »
Stop talking as if I haven't read the New Testament just because I find it cruel and that it is leading me to schizophrenia or worse. Perhaps I would. I find it an epistle that shows great thinking in terms of understanding tradition and interpreting scripture in a certain context. But for me, the whole mentality is wrong to begin with. We human beings might feel the need to forgiveness, and in many cases We do reject life and alienate ourselves, But life is so immensely complex, that to me, a God who doesnt say eternally and unconditionally yes to all his creation no matter What, is not a good God and not worth worshiping, even if it leads to eternal torture. If on the other hand only I am the problem, things are different. If God says eternally yes while I refuse for some reason, then I can accept but I CANT find that in the New Testament. Because then there would Be no last judgement. What I find in the gospels: I am a problem for God according to the Gospels, because I offend him somehow, perhaps his honour. And the gospels make me feel like even My birth is an offence to him, so why not just kill myself? He loves me only if I Accept a 2000 year old sacrifice recorded in a book that I must believe in but am incapable of trusting. He is the one that actively punishes, rejects and casts me into hell forever because of my deeds, it is a no from both sides. If I say no, he says not yes but no. Even if I once say no under the wrong circumstances at the wrong time once, he says eternally no it seems. And the yes I am incapable of without his yes and woing. This is mental torture beyond all else to me.

Having read the New Testament and having understood it are two different things; you may have done the former, but you've clearly not done the latter.  But what is clear is your final point:

"This is mental torture beyond all else to me."

You have locked yourself into a prison of your own design and construction.  If you want to understand the Scripture, find yourself a guide.  As someone told me once, it's a journey that will not succeed if you draw your own map and follow your own compass.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #258 on: August 03, 2017, 05:53:24 PM »
Beebert, I wonder (now that you're hopefully reading Hebrews for yourself) whether, if you were able to think of these passages as a Jewish Rabbi writing to his congregation, you wouldn't react quite less angrily and actually think, He does some very interesting and perceptive things with the scriptures and stories of his tradition.
Stop talking as if I haven't read the New Testament just because I find it cruel and that it is leading me to schizophrenia or worse. Perhaps I would. I find it an epistle that shows great thinking in terms of understanding tradition and interpreting scripture in a certain context. But for me, the whole mentality is wrong to begin with. We human beings might feel the need to forgiveness, and in many cases We do reject life and alienate ourselves, But life is so immensely complex, that to me, a God who doesnt say eternally and unconditionally yes to all his creation no matter What, is not a good God and not worth worshiping, even if it leads to eternal torture. If on the other hand only I am the problem, things are different. If God says eternally yes while I refuse for some reason, then I can accept but I CANT find that in the New Testament. Because then there would Be no last judgement. What I find in the gospels: I am a problem for God according to the Gospels, because I offend him somehow, perhaps his honour. And the gospels make me feel like even My birth is an offence to him, so why not just kill myself? He loves me only if I Accept a 2000 year old sacrifice recorded in a book that I must believe in but am incapable of trusting. He is the one that actively punishes, rejects and casts me into hell forever because of my deeds, it is a no from both sides. If I say no, he says not yes but no. Even if I once say no under the wrong circumstances at the wrong time once, he says eternally no it seems. And the yes I am incapable of without his yes and woing. This is mental torture beyond all else to me.

Dude, you are your own mental torture beyond all else.  There are people more psychologically stable in their lives who are able to accept or reject the Bible freely.  You are your own worst nightmare, and it's really a hopeless case to tell you go see a doctor because we said it so many times.  In the end, it doesn't matter if you read the NT, you still haven't really "read" it.  You only read INTO what you want to read.

And people have been posting for 6 pages with you, because they care about you.

An orthodox Christian seems to me to care so much that he agrees with the church that one who commits suicide doesnt receive a funeral
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #259 on: August 03, 2017, 05:56:28 PM »
Sure, you can be angry about that.  That doesn't change your own problems.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #260 on: August 03, 2017, 06:02:20 PM »
Stop talking as if I haven't read the New Testament just because I find it cruel and that it is leading me to schizophrenia or worse. Perhaps I would. I find it an epistle that shows great thinking in terms of understanding tradition and interpreting scripture in a certain context. But for me, the whole mentality is wrong to begin with. We human beings might feel the need to forgiveness, and in many cases We do reject life and alienate ourselves, But life is so immensely complex, that to me, a God who doesnt say eternally and unconditionally yes to all his creation no matter What, is not a good God and not worth worshiping, even if it leads to eternal torture. If on the other hand only I am the problem, things are different. If God says eternally yes while I refuse for some reason, then I can accept but I CANT find that in the New Testament. Because then there would Be no last judgement. What I find in the gospels: I am a problem for God according to the Gospels, because I offend him somehow, perhaps his honour. And the gospels make me feel like even My birth is an offence to him, so why not just kill myself? He loves me only if I Accept a 2000 year old sacrifice recorded in a book that I must believe in but am incapable of trusting. He is the one that actively punishes, rejects and casts me into hell forever because of my deeds, it is a no from both sides. If I say no, he says not yes but no. Even if I once say no under the wrong circumstances at the wrong time once, he says eternally no it seems. And the yes I am incapable of without his yes and woing. This is mental torture beyond all else to me.

Having read the New Testament and having understood it are two different things; you may have done the former, but you've clearly not done the latter.  But what is clear is your final point:

"This is mental torture beyond all else to me."

You have locked yourself into a prison of your own design and construction.  If you want to understand the Scripture, find yourself a guide.  As someone told me once, it's a journey that will not succeed if you draw your own map and follow your own compass.
I have been to a guide, he seemed to be a living Don Quixote. Then I went to the next, he had completely interpreted scripture in his own way. To my liking, But too original to believe it. Then I went to a third, and he seemed to explain away all things that I find horrible. God must reveal himself. He does so when he likes. In the end, I have no longer the ambition. I dont want everlasting life, I just dont want eternal torture.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #261 on: August 03, 2017, 06:07:51 PM »
Since I offered to address:

“When thou shalt despise that which is here esteemed to be death, when thou shalt fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who shall be condemned to the eternal fire, which shall afflict those even to the end that are committed to it. Then shalt thou admire those who for righteousness’ sake endure the fire that is but for a moment, and shalt count them happy when thou shalt know the nature of that fire” (Epistle to Diognetus 10:7-8).

 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Galatians 1:8-9


2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 on hell: “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among those who have believed.”

“Thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,’ these shall be damned forever; and to whomsoever He shall say, ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,’ these do receive the kingdom forever” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.28.2).

Tertullian:
"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . ."

The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.

“Let us fancy we see hell, and imagine what is worst to behold—a horrible cavern full of black flames. Sulphur, devils, dragons, fire, swords, arrows, and innumerable damned who roar in despair. Imagine the worst you can, and then say, ‘All this is nothing compared to hell.' …In that voracious subterranean cavern all the filth of the world is collected and inclosed, without exhalation or air, which must produce a most foetid pestilence…The sight is tormented by frightful devils; a holy religious saw at death two so monstrous and ugly devils, that he cried out that rather than see them again he would walk till the day of judgment on fire of sulphur and melted metal.” Spiritual Exercises, Medit. 12 by Ignatius of Loyola

“(Hell) It is a sea of fire—not a sea of the kind or dimensions we know here, but much larger and fiercer, with waves made of fire, fire of a strange and fearsome kind. There is a great abyss there, in fact, of terrible flames, and one can see fire rushing about on all sides like some wild animal. … There will be no one who can resist, no one who can escape: Christ’s gentle, peaceful face will be nowhere to be seen. But as those sentenced to work the mines are give over to rough men and see no more of their families, but only their taskmasters, so it will be there—or not simply so, but much worse. For here on can appeal to the Emperor for clemency, and have the prisoner released—but there, never. They will not be released, but will remain roasting and in such agony as cannot be expressed.” (Homilies on Matthew 43[44].4)

Yes, just punishment in the next life (hell in common parlance) is a Christian teaching, as is merciful bliss in the next life (heaven). I'm not sure what you expect me to do with this. I mean, I can point out you're quoting Tertullian and Ignatius of Loyola, who weren't exactly good Christians, but it's not as tho they contradict Christianity in the broad picture here. So, yes, this is in the broad picture Christian. For me, I wouldn't be interested in having someone deny to me the facts of the life beyond -- we know so little as it is, and yet that life is so much grander in every dimension than this one -- surely to know a little is a blessing. As I have free will and the favor of God who desires my companionship, it is something I can prepare for. I am equipped. And as I am at peace with being human -- no, I find it apt and glorious to be a human creature -- rather than some more-sterile thing like a computer or a demon, then the fact that I am subject to pain and pleasure does not shame me, and will shame me less and less as I mature.

Quote
Combine all this with things like :

"6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles"(Romans 9:6-24)

Romans chapter nine is a discussion primarily of how the "chosen people" could have lost their special status. The Hebrew scriptures themselves are full of implications of this, as the Apostle quoted, but even much more widely and straightforwardly in the curses Jehovah heaped on Israel via the warnings of Deuteronomy and the epic songs of the Holy Prophets. Yes, the Creator raises one season and lowers another in continuous cycle. Yes, he sets the bounds of the sea and of the upper air. Yes, he settles the species in their habits. Yes, he does the same with the affairs of men for all their pride. At the same time, he is mighty to save in all circumstances, in blessing, in cursing, in disgrace, in pride, in peace, in war, in plenty, in famine, in childhood, in the last breaths of old age. There is no denying his power. If the source and sustainer of all things in all ages evokes your jealousy, then you are quite the two-year-old.

At the same time, he gave to man the liberty of free will, which is our inescapable tie to himself either for sympathy or opposition. He gave us spark of god-ness. No, we cannot use it to make ourselves gold if we were destined to be clay. We are very very limited in power. In fact, will is not power. We cannot use it to make of ourselves fine gold if we were not destined to enjoy that fate -- but we can use it to geld ourselves. We can confuse will and power and become hideously ridiculous.

But in all this strong dose of truth there is still the sweet dregs of salvation for all who will take it. And in fact St. Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans chapter 9 and following (yes, there's more to the book) ends with his conviction that "all Israel shall be saved."

Quote
And you have absurdities immediately.

Well, you do, at any rate. Perhaps your fate?

Quote
How christianity can ever lead to anything else than heavenly utilitarism and egotism I will never know.

Quick with the adjectives of many syllables. What they mean is not apparent. Christianity has one use: your salvation. You'll never know if it "leads to" that unless you strap those wheels on.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #262 on: August 03, 2017, 06:08:16 PM »
Sure, you can be angry about that.  That doesn't change your own problems.
I Will be honest with My belief. Existence is hell. It is a failed experiment by an evil God. Without art, life would literally be a mistake worth cursing all the way through. I believe Job was right before God showed up and explained himself away. Nietzsche was right about both the essence of life and about christianity it seems to me, and I hope he was too. And without a God, I would finally be able to see the sky and the sea and sing hymns to the sun. But Jehovah, the most terrrifying figure in the entire western canon of literature, doesnt leave me in peace. He haunts me. And on top of this, I cant understand how a serious human being can say that Jehovah of Moses and Jesus is the same God. If he is, his inconsistent, contradictory and almost disturbed personality would make me even more frightened. It doesnt help that I find like 5 different Jesus in the new testament, and one new Jesus for every new Christian I meet, including among the priests of the orthodox church.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline William T

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #263 on: August 03, 2017, 06:11:24 PM »
Because You do not think as high of yourself as I do. I am capable of things only geniuses can pull of and I dont hide it

What are you on about here bro?

trolljumpingtheshark.jpg  :P
You will see

No. I am about to develop a philosophy.

This is one of the lines I've never been able to cross, no matter how big my head got. That is, the idea that of all the billions of people who have existed, the tens of thousands of philosophies and religions, and the hundreds of millions of texts and oral defenses and lived examples of those belief systems, that none of them had yet got things right, and thus the world had to wait until your or I showed up to develop the right system of ideas and practices.

You just crossed the line mister, that's the final straw...I'm going to make you a part of my philosophy I'm developing now.  You won't be so smug when I'm through with you, just you wait.

Now do you want to be called a fundamentalist, reactionary, anti-social, hypocritical, beta male, untermench, alienated, a coward, a slave, herdlike, victim of a false conscience, or sexually repressed in my little scheme?
A philosopher doesnt want the solution to everything really, he just enjoys philosophizing. It is his game and language. Just like art, it is a way to live, to escape reality perhaps, or maybe to live not in order to know everything, but to make the quest for knowledge a meaning of its own. I dont develop a philosophy in order to provide mankind with all solutions, But in order to create. That is meaningful. Who cares about imposing things on others? Only power-seeking, fearful people to that.

That's called a psychologism, and it's this kind of attitude that tends to be highly correlated with your constructivism.  In terms of application and consequence, it tends to result in things far worse than anything it purports to "liberate" from.  Of course the philosopher in question would never know this as he is divorced from reality and nothing is verifiable or falsifiable in his actions.

As for a man like Witt.  He is tough to pin, but to start off there tends to be three basic conclusions you can reach with him:

1) constructivist: 
“language” merely describes what happens when through words and concepts“carve up” the world.  In principle, we might carve it up in some radically different way.  “Language” captures necessary features of the world only in the sense that, we necessarily are stuck with a "world view" that language is used to explain in a non private sphere and certain ways of describing things are ruled out as nonsensical.  However, our language and conceptual scheme as a whole is contingent, and could in theory be replaced by some alternative and radically different other worldly language and conceptual scheme.

As popular as views of this sort, and as "intuitively" easy it is for teeny boppers of the zeitgeist, activists, and some holed up mal-contented secular monks academics  to come up with such ideas, they aren't very good ideas and are only worth taking seriously because they are so prevalent.  The analogy to this would be, If I were born in Syria I would be forced to patiently take Salafism seriously due to its force even though I don't have much respect for it as a religion, or on the consequences of its practices, or the habits and culture of its practitioners whereas in America, it's so foreign to most people here, I have the luxury of looking cool and simply dismissing it.  I could powder my wig, tell  wittyjokes about it, and look good doing it in Salon society.

2) language as a "rule of life":

“language” captures not merely how we happen, contingently, to “carve up” the world, but how reality itself must be.  In this case language is not just what is necessarily the case given our conceptual scheme, but what is flat out necessarily the case of the world.  We cannot so much as even make sense of the idea of a radically different  conceptual scheme, because we cannot so much as make sense of reality being any different than the rules of “language” tell us it is.

3) For lack of a better term a kind of "materialist anti-dualism":

The two conflicting interpretations I mentioned are interpretations W. is trying to avoid. Both have too much of a schism between the world on one hand and concepts on another that W. seems to hate, and he would label both of these as "word witchery" that agree on much the same premises and are merely arguing about abstract correspondences. It is in our "normative language" that no such confusion arises and it's best to look at pre-philosophical uses of language.  And in this case, as I think this would be a temption for someone like you: I would like stress this has nothing to do with how hipster doofus Heidegger would agree with, so I don't want you to be tempted into thinking in that direction, as I think many millenial "philosophers" (or is it "thinkers" now?) would.

I think you, and most younger folk who are part of our current cultural zeitgeist tend towards interpretation 1. I also think this has nothing to do with Witt, and more to do with silly little academics using whatever as an excuse to get paid and make up silly little subjects and interpretations to get paid for things.

I personally think Witt went towards 3, or maybe 2.  I think more serious philosophers who commented on such things (Such as Saul Kripke or Anscombe) are in agreement. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:14:38 PM by William T »
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #264 on: August 03, 2017, 06:15:24 PM »
Is a type of Christian Deist Anthropmorphism . . . Anthrocentric? ...
Learn meditation.

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #265 on: August 03, 2017, 06:15:52 PM »
So... you champion creative individuality, and then consider it a problem when the people in the Bible are creative individuals who aren't in lock-step as far as how they talk about Jesus? You're embracing a basic fact of human psychology as the cornerstone of your beliefs, but then saying that when Christians do it it is evidence that they shouldn't be trusted or believed? James and Paul (for example) are both looking on from different locations... that doesn't mean they aren't both observing the same person in between them and are simply articulating what it is about that person that has meaning in their own particular lives.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:16:39 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #266 on: August 03, 2017, 06:19:30 PM »
Sure, you can be angry about that.  That doesn't change your own problems.
I Will be honest with My belief. Existence is hell. It is a failed experiment by an evil God. Without art, life would literally be a mistake worth cursing all the way through. I believe Job was right before God showed up and explained himself away. Nietzsche was right about both the essence of life and about christianity it seems to me, and I hope he was too. And without a God, I would finally be able to see the sky and the sea and sing hymns to the sun. But Jehovah, the most terrrifying figure in the entire western canon of literature, doesnt leave me in peace. He haunts me. And on top of this, I cant understand how a serious human being can say that Jehovah of Moses and Jesus is the same God. If he is, his inconsistent, contradictory and almost disturbed personality would make me even more frightened. It doesnt help that I find like 5 different Jesus in the new testament, and one new Jesus for every new Christian I meet, including among the priests of the orthodox church.

How can you logically say existence is the evil? Everything you enjoy, such as whatever art is, exists. Animals for whose salvation you've expressed no fear exist. Certainly, logically what you'd consider evil is the freedom you were given?

Have you tried using it?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #267 on: August 03, 2017, 06:20:28 PM »
Since I offered to address:

“When thou shalt despise that which is here esteemed to be death, when thou shalt fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who shall be condemned to the eternal fire, which shall afflict those even to the end that are committed to it. Then shalt thou admire those who for righteousness’ sake endure the fire that is but for a moment, and shalt count them happy when thou shalt know the nature of that fire” (Epistle to Diognetus 10:7-8).

 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Galatians 1:8-9


2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 on hell: “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among those who have believed.”

“Thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,’ these shall be damned forever; and to whomsoever He shall say, ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,’ these do receive the kingdom forever” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.28.2).

Tertullian:
"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . ."

The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.

“Let us fancy we see hell, and imagine what is worst to behold—a horrible cavern full of black flames. Sulphur, devils, dragons, fire, swords, arrows, and innumerable damned who roar in despair. Imagine the worst you can, and then say, ‘All this is nothing compared to hell.' …In that voracious subterranean cavern all the filth of the world is collected and inclosed, without exhalation or air, which must produce a most foetid pestilence…The sight is tormented by frightful devils; a holy religious saw at death two so monstrous and ugly devils, that he cried out that rather than see them again he would walk till the day of judgment on fire of sulphur and melted metal.” Spiritual Exercises, Medit. 12 by Ignatius of Loyola

“(Hell) It is a sea of fire—not a sea of the kind or dimensions we know here, but much larger and fiercer, with waves made of fire, fire of a strange and fearsome kind. There is a great abyss there, in fact, of terrible flames, and one can see fire rushing about on all sides like some wild animal. … There will be no one who can resist, no one who can escape: Christ’s gentle, peaceful face will be nowhere to be seen. But as those sentenced to work the mines are give over to rough men and see no more of their families, but only their taskmasters, so it will be there—or not simply so, but much worse. For here on can appeal to the Emperor for clemency, and have the prisoner released—but there, never. They will not be released, but will remain roasting and in such agony as cannot be expressed.” (Homilies on Matthew 43[44].4)

Yes, just punishment in the next life (hell in common parlance) is a Christian teaching, as is merciful bliss in the next life (heaven). I'm not sure what you expect me to do with this. I mean, I can point out you're quoting Tertullian and Ignatius of Loyola, who weren't exactly good Christians, but it's not as tho they contradict Christianity in the broad picture here. So, yes, this is in the broad picture Christian. For me, I wouldn't be interested in having someone deny to me the facts of the life beyond -- we know so little as it is, and yet that life is so much grander in every dimension than this one -- surely to know a little is a blessing. As I have free will and the favor of God who desires my companionship, it is something I can prepare for. I am equipped. And as I am at peace with being human -- no, I find it apt and glorious to be a human creature -- rather than some more-sterile thing like a computer or a demon, then the fact that I am subject to pain and pleasure does not shame me, and will shame me less and less as I mature.

Quote
Combine all this with things like :

"6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles"(Romans 9:6-24)

Romans chapter nine is a discussion primarily of how the "chosen people" could have lost their special status. The Hebrew scriptures themselves are full of implications of this, as the Apostle quoted, but even much more widely and straightforwardly in the curses Jehovah heaped on Israel via the warnings of Deuteronomy and the epic songs of the Holy Prophets. Yes, the Creator raises one season and lowers another in continuous cycle. Yes, he sets the bounds of the sea and of the upper air. Yes, he settles the species in their habits. Yes, he does the same with the affairs of men for all their pride. At the same time, he is mighty to save in all circumstances, in blessing, in cursing, in disgrace, in pride, in peace, in war, in plenty, in famine, in childhood, in the last breaths of old age. There is no denying his power. If the source and sustainer of all things in all ages evokes your jealousy, then you are quite the two-year-old.

At the same time, he gave to man the liberty of free will, which is our inescapable tie to himself either for sympathy or opposition. He gave us spark of god-ness. No, we cannot use it to make ourselves gold if we were destined to be clay. We are very very limited in power. In fact, will is not power. We cannot use it to make of ourselves fine gold if we were not destined to enjoy that fate -- but we can use it to geld ourselves. We can confuse will and power and become hideously ridiculous.

But in all this strong dose of truth there is still the sweet dregs of salvation for all who will take it. And in fact St. Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans chapter 9 and following (yes, there's more to the book) ends with his conviction that "all Israel shall be saved."

Quote
And you have absurdities immediately.

Well, you do, at any rate. Perhaps your fate?

Quote
How christianity can ever lead to anything else than heavenly utilitarism and egotism I will never know.

Quick with the adjectives of many syllables. What they mean is not apparent. Christianity has one use: your salvation. You'll never know if it "leads to" that unless you strap those wheels on.
"he gave to man the liberty of free will"

Sorry, but My reaction there is no no no aEnd a thousand times no. As I Said in another thread I have no choice in the matter as to whether I may exist forever or not. According to christianity, I must exist forever, and I must WANT to unless I want eternal torture. This, all this and the doctrine of eternal damnation makes it hard for me to accept that christianity is a religion that believes in man's infinite worth. All questions that arises are always either considered prideful or a sin, or they end up being answered with "Because God says so". I am disappointed with Jesus, I must admit. I believed him to be forgiving. But I doubt he even exists. Probably, he died and remained dead. I reject the idea that you have everyday freedom and freedom of choice. If you ever have freedom of choice, you have perhaps 1-5 such occasions in your life, depending on the choices you make. But all other choices, and quite possibly these unique situations of "free" choices too, have so many complex and unconcious motions, instincts, desires behind them that we barely know what we choose. These underlying instincts and drives, which are unfree desires, desires caused by mainly external circunstances, are the reason for our choices, and our concious mind is nothing in power in comparsion.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #268 on: August 03, 2017, 06:23:33 PM »
Sure, you can be angry about that.  That doesn't change your own problems.
I Will be honest with My belief. Existence is hell. It is a failed experiment by an evil God. Without art, life would literally be a mistake worth cursing all the way through. I believe Job was right before God showed up and explained himself away. Nietzsche was right about both the essence of life and about christianity it seems to me, and I hope he was too. And without a God, I would finally be able to see the sky and the sea and sing hymns to the sun. But Jehovah, the most terrrifying figure in the entire western canon of literature, doesnt leave me in peace. He haunts me. And on top of this, I cant understand how a serious human being can say that Jehovah of Moses and Jesus is the same God. If he is, his inconsistent, contradictory and almost disturbed personality would make me even more frightened. It doesnt help that I find like 5 different Jesus in the new testament, and one new Jesus for every new Christian I meet, including among the priests of the orthodox church.

How can you logically say existence is the evil? Everything you enjoy, such as whatever art is, exists. Animals for whose salvation you've expressed no fear exist. Certainly, logically what you'd consider evil is the freedom you were given?

Have you tried using it?
Nothing justifies the grotesque evil of suffering and starving children in Africa, Death camps in Auschwitz etc. Nothing, not even the whole oeuvre of Mozart. Art is great Because it makes man capable of fleeing from the reality of existence.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #269 on: August 03, 2017, 06:25:33 PM »
So... you champion creative individuality, and then consider it a problem when the people in the Bible are creative individuals who aren't in lock-step as far as how they talk about Jesus? You're embracing a basic fact of human psychology as the cornerstone of your beliefs, but then saying that when Christians do it it is evidence that they shouldn't be trusted or believed? James and Paul (for example) are both looking on from different locations... that doesn't mean they aren't both observing the same person in between them and are simply articulating what it is about that person that has meaning in their own particular lives.
I could have embraced it if the aims werent, as I Said in that very same post, to impose your "truth" on others. And in this case worse, coming up with a whole metaphysical reality of punishment of the most grotesque kind for all that do not accept your ideas. That is the opposite of What I praised
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:28:29 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)