Author Topic: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life  (Read 5423 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #135 on: August 03, 2017, 10:13:33 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.

"Foolish Galatians.", "Let him be accursed.", "Emasculate themselves."... Christlike?
If we are going to start pulling phrases, I can get some real doozies from Nietzsche.
God bless!

Offline RobS

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2017, 10:15:38 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.

"Foolish Galatians.", "Let him be accursed.", "Emasculate themselves."... Christlike?
If we are going to start pulling phrases, I can get some real doozies from Nietzsche.
Post em!
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2017, 10:26:28 AM »
On my phone. When I get to my desktop, I'll get some fun ones.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2017, 10:28:03 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.

"Foolish Galatians.", "Let him be accursed.", "Emasculate themselves."... Christlike?
If we are going to start pulling phrases, I can get some real doozies from Nietzsche.
I know. But at least he has humour, writes well and most of all doesnt terrorize people with evil threats of eternal torture in a lake of fire. When Nietzsche attacks, one laughs, when Paul does it, it is just either sad or scary
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:29:15 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2017, 10:32:57 AM »
You know what Beebert...enjoy your newfound atheism.  Perhaps it's better than acting like a winey baby of how you felt you're going to hell.  Enjoy going to non-existence.
Wouldnt you prefer non-existence to an imaginable mental torture, to a nightmarish prison and terrorizing fear because you only have to wait for not death but unending torture striking you at any moment?

There's practically no difference between those choices.  Meanwhile, I'm able to hope enough to inherit the Kingdom, unlike your hopeless case.

I also remember it wasn't Paul who warned of the worm that never dies.
Making Jesus look bad too doesnt make things better and saying there is no difference between My understanding of non-existence, that is unconciousness, and the tyrannic torture described in The New Testament is grotesque and wrong. Do you have zero understanding for why people kill themselves? At least buddhism is honest. They can at least put things simply as they really experience them: "I suffer" and "People around me suffer". A God Killing himself doesnt make things better, especially considering his ambivalent demands and inability of communicating clearly when at the same time he threatens people
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:37:03 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2017, 10:34:12 AM »
I would say a good 95% of what Paul writes is not offensive or controversial in any way. It's only a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday and then pronounced horrifying and contributing to future atrocities and discrimination. As someone vehemently protesting the Nietzsche-Nazi link, I would think you of all people would understand that.
God bless!

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2017, 10:39:27 AM »
I would say a good 95% of what Paul writes is not offensive or controversial in any way. It's only a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday and then pronounced horrifying and contributing to future atrocities and discrimination. As someone vehemently protesting the Nietzsche-Nazi link, I would think you of all people would understand that.
Nietzsche was more honest, hence My preferense, and the fact that he doesnt mentally tyrannize people. He writes What he thinks, take it or leave it. Paul doesnt leave you alone, because his God will torture you forever if you dont listen to him
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #142 on: August 03, 2017, 10:42:58 AM »
Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
What in the world are you talking about?

I was just saying getting so easily upset over this thread is pretty silly. Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble. If you don't like what's posted, don't engage it. Let the mods take care of problem threads.

Letting the mods take care of problem threads is a good idea, and if anyone is concerned about where a thread is going, they can report it to the moderators for review and express their concerns.   

That said, I would like to take issue with the idea that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble".  While this may be true in the sense that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to struggle about matters of faith", I consider "stumbling" to be a more all-inclusive idea, and in that sense, yes, much of what he wrote causes one to stumble.  The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:47:04 AM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2017, 10:44:22 AM »
a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday

In addition to that gem of a quality with beebert, he also looks for an enemy.  Before it was Calvin.  Now, it's Paul.  And soon enough it will be even Christ.  It is not a very difficult leap at all.  One who refuses to seek continuous psychiatric therapy is the cause of his own depravity.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #144 on: August 03, 2017, 10:45:18 AM »
I don't care. Nobody cares.

You promised to man up. Granted, I didn't believe you, but here's a reminder nonetheless. So skip the rummage in some Dane's belfry, and get to work demonstrating any of the rotten slanders of the great Saint you've made in the thread. Chapter-and-verse or paraphrase, either, as long as the paraphrases are recognizable. I refer you back to my point-by-point query above, which, you know, you promised to respond adequately to. And if in fact you can't demonstrate any of the attacks you've made by citation, then your posts have been those of a dirty scoundrel. Get to work that they remain not baseless and you base.

"Foolish Galatians.", "Let him be accursed.", "Emasculate themselves."... Christlike?

"Den of vipers," "Let him be as a heathen man and a publican," "Pluck out your eye" ...

 :-*
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #145 on: August 03, 2017, 10:48:07 AM »
I would say a good 95% of what Paul writes is not offensive or controversial in any way. It's only a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday and then pronounced horrifying and contributing to future atrocities and discrimination. As someone vehemently protesting the Nietzsche-Nazi link, I would think you of all people would understand that.
also I dont claim Nietzsche infallible as you all seem to do with Paul. Of course the nazis used Nietzsche, but mainly thanks to his antisemitic sister who corrupted and changed his private letters, when in fact he warned her that he would break contact with her if she continued to be an antisemite.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:50:32 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Luke

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #146 on: August 03, 2017, 10:52:38 AM »
I Only Believe in effects. Not causes. But if the Christian God exists, there are of course "causes", or simplu one cause: him. And therefore also one guilty, which he perhaps realized on the cross. Why did God create a world where this bridge came to exist? To say he would be incarnated anyway is nothing but mere speculation. Did God not want it this way? How could he then be so irresponsible as to create men with "free will"(free will is a lie I am sure but here I must try to use your language),  knowing its catastrophical consequences? And then after that he incarnates, and threatens people with the most horrible things imaginable if they dont obey him and follow him through his mess. And later on, he once again hides himself and provides us only with a book filled with contradictions and doomed to be misunderstood, and a Church that has either corrupted his message more than once, or oppressed people, or hided its teachings. While Jesus sits glorifed next to his father, leaving us tyrannized by his threats and seeming to be quite indifferent to the fate of most of us.


Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #147 on: August 03, 2017, 10:59:21 AM »
What are you saying about the man that preached God to gentiles? An apostle that was chosen by God Himself? Which is the difference of Paul and Jesus? I can't find one. Paul taught love. The Lord taught love. Paul confess Jesus as Lord and God and Jesus said that too. And much more... The writings of Paul can change lives! Paul inspires so many things. He wrote one of the best passages in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13). Paul is misunderstood by many because they don't know the teachings of the Church, the Old Testament and Second Temple Judaism.
So Jesus and Paul are the same to you? I find in Paul a completely different spirit, a surpressed want to dominate combined with a wish for all things to be over. I find occasional bursts of joy and insight, probably because of epilepsy, but in the end a man who didnt understand the consequences of his writings. The world would have been a better Place if he had remained quiet or at least explained himself. You call his preaching love. Just because I say 11 times that love is important doesnt mean I stand for it in depth, reading Paul in its entirety eliminates the idea for me that he preached love, no matter how beautiful corinthians 13 is (though these days I cant even read this chapter without feeling sick). And a God who poops out new men in to existence when we are already too many, in to a world of misery and evil, without their consent and under the threat of ETERNAL hell, while calling himself both all-loving and all-powerful (what a great contradiction considering how these words have been used)... Is this love? What else to it? The church's and God's condemnation against the man who criticizes Paul who was just a man. This is life-killing and a crime against creativity. Just take the behavior of the churches against Nazi Germany! It is the epitome of turning a great man's (Jesus) message into nihilism. These Christian cowards make me puke! They should stand for what they preach or else be honest enough to leave their faith immediately that they havent got in their hearts. But then when one looks to Paul and his pathetic worship of the role of the greatest evil that exists; the state, one ceases to wonder. To say that God is a ruler of the state or anything that even gives a hint to something close to such a belief is hideous, and of course you find it in the jurist and politician Paul. His promotion of slavery is another problem. Yes to compare this insect with someone like Buddha for example, or Socrates, or even Francis of Assisi, is almost criminal it seems to me.

MOD HAT ON:

I completely missed this post.  You have been skirting close to insulting God and the saints.  You have now directly called St. Paul an insect.

In this section, you have the freedom to disagree with Orthodoxy and with Christianity in general.  But you have no right to insult the saints, let alone God in this site.  So to help you remember that, I will give you a 10% warning.  If you like to appeal this warning, ONLY send me a PM.  If you reply to my green text publicly, you run the risk of incurring an even worse penalty.

Hit the brakes in your posts and reconsider the way you would like to present your heresies.

Mina
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Offline WPM

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #148 on: August 03, 2017, 11:01:58 AM »
So says the Philosophers. . .
Learn meditation.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #149 on: August 03, 2017, 11:06:31 AM »
Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
What in the world are you talking about?

I was just saying getting so easily upset over this thread is pretty silly. Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble. If you don't like what's posted, don't engage it. Let the mods take care of problem threads.

Letting the mods take care of problem threads is a good idea, and if anyone is concerned about where a thread is going, they can report it to the moderators for review and express their concerns.   

That said, I would like to take issue with the idea that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble".  While this may be true in the sense that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to struggle about matters of faith", I consider "stumbling" to be a more all-inclusive idea, and in that sense, yes, much of what he wrote causes one to stumble.  The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     
Christians should always be strong enough to not stumble in their faith when someone questions them. Otherwise if they do stumble; the fault seems to be their own. Unless it is a Little Child. Now if you find me a huge problem that is a danger for others; then block me. My intention is not to make you stumble in whatever Faith you have if your faith is honest
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #150 on: August 03, 2017, 11:09:10 AM »
Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
What in the world are you talking about?

I was just saying getting so easily upset over this thread is pretty silly. Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble. If you don't like what's posted, don't engage it. Let the mods take care of problem threads.

Letting the mods take care of problem threads is a good idea, and if anyone is concerned about where a thread is going, they can report it to the moderators for review and express their concerns.   

That said, I would like to take issue with the idea that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble".  While this may be true in the sense that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to struggle about matters of faith", I consider "stumbling" to be a more all-inclusive idea, and in that sense, yes, much of what he wrote causes one to stumble.  The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     
Christians should always be strong enough to not stumble in their faith when someone questions them. Otherwise if they do stumble; the fault seems to be their own. Unless it is a Little Child. Now if you find me a huge problem that is a danger for others; then block me. My intention is not to make you stumble in whatever Faith you have if your faith is honest

You are not questioning.  You are defaming.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #151 on: August 03, 2017, 11:10:18 AM »
I would say a good 95% of what Paul writes is not offensive or controversial in any way. It's only a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday and then pronounced horrifying and contributing to future atrocities and discrimination. As someone vehemently protesting the Nietzsche-Nazi link, I would think you of all people would understand that.
also I dont claim Nietzsche infallible as you all seem to do with Paul. Of course the nazis used Nietzsche, but mainly thanks to his antisemitic sister who corrupted and changed his private letters, when in fact he warned her that he would break contact with her if she continued to be an antisemite.
That is a special pleading fallacy. You wish to condemn St Paul directly for anything people used his words for, but then shift all condemnation of Nietzsche to his sister. It could just as easily be argued that people and factions have misrepresented St Paul's writings which resulted in the alleged atrocities that you claim came from his writing.

I think words like infallible are pretty useless. Writings are subject to interpretation and cultural understandings. I certainly don't think all interpretations of St Paul are infallible and I don't claim that my understanding of him is infallible, so to make a claim of infallibility is meaningless.
God bless!

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #152 on: August 03, 2017, 11:15:16 AM »
What are you saying about the man that preached God to gentiles? An apostle that was chosen by God Himself? Which is the difference of Paul and Jesus? I can't find one. Paul taught love. The Lord taught love. Paul confess Jesus as Lord and God and Jesus said that too. And much more... The writings of Paul can change lives! Paul inspires so many things. He wrote one of the best passages in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13). Paul is misunderstood by many because they don't know the teachings of the Church, the Old Testament and Second Temple Judaism.
So Jesus and Paul are the same to you? I find in Paul a completely different spirit, a surpressed want to dominate combined with a wish for all things to be over. I find occasional bursts of joy and insight, probably because of epilepsy, but in the end a man who didnt understand the consequences of his writings. The world would have been a better Place if he had remained quiet or at least explained himself. You call his preaching love. Just because I say 11 times that love is important doesnt mean I stand for it in depth, reading Paul in its entirety eliminates the idea for me that he preached love, no matter how beautiful corinthians 13 is (though these days I cant even read this chapter without feeling sick). And a God who poops out new men in to existence when we are already too many, in to a world of misery and evil, without their consent and under the threat of ETERNAL hell, while calling himself both all-loving and all-powerful (what a great contradiction considering how these words have been used)... Is this love? What else to it? The church's and God's condemnation against the man who criticizes Paul who was just a man. This is life-killing and a crime against creativity. Just take the behavior of the churches against Nazi Germany! It is the epitome of turning a great man's (Jesus) message into nihilism. These Christian cowards make me puke! They should stand for what they preach or else be honest enough to leave their faith immediately that they havent got in their hearts. But then when one looks to Paul and his pathetic worship of the role of the greatest evil that exists; the state, one ceases to wonder. To say that God is a ruler of the state or anything that even gives a hint to something close to such a belief is hideous, and of course you find it in the jurist and politician Paul. His promotion of slavery is another problem. Yes to compare this insect with someone like Buddha for example, or Socrates, or even Francis of Assisi, is almost criminal it seems to me.

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I completely missed this post.  You have been skirting close to insulting God and the saints.  You have now directly called St. Paul an insect.

In this section, you have the freedom to disagree with Orthodoxy and with Christianity in general.  But you have no right to insult the saints, let alone God in this site.  So to help you remember that, I will give you a 10% warning.  If you like to appeal this warning, ONLY send me a PM.  If you reply to my green text publicly, you run the risk of incurring an even worse penalty.

Hit the brakes in your posts and reconsider the way you would like to present your heresies.

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This just seems to me like another example in favour for Nietzsche's thoughts over Paul's, if you know what I mean. God is both life "giver" and "destroyer" in the end. I want to be destroyed as in non-existence rather then living on these terms and it is exceptionally hard for me to see how one could feel otherwise. Had God been kind or wise it seems to me, he would have prevented me from coming to life. So my only conclusion is: He wants me destroyed in a much more terrifying way: Eternal destruction as in torture torture torture and torture
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #153 on: August 03, 2017, 11:16:36 AM »
I would say a good 95% of what Paul writes is not offensive or controversial in any way. It's only a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday and then pronounced horrifying and contributing to future atrocities and discrimination. As someone vehemently protesting the Nietzsche-Nazi link, I would think you of all people would understand that.
also I dont claim Nietzsche infallible as you all seem to do with Paul. Of course the nazis used Nietzsche, but mainly thanks to his antisemitic sister who corrupted and changed his private letters, when in fact he warned her that he would break contact with her if she continued to be an antisemite.
That is a special pleading fallacy. You wish to condemn St Paul directly for anything people used his words for, but then shift all condemnation of Nietzsche to his sister. It could just as easily be argued that people and factions have misrepresented St Paul's writings which resulted in the alleged atrocities that you claim came from his writing.

I think words like infallible are pretty useless. Writings are subject to interpretation and cultural understandings. I certainly don't think all interpretations of St Paul are infallible and I don't claim that my understanding of him is infallible, so to make a claim of infallibility is meaningless.
Do You Believe Paul himself to be infallible in his understanding of God as presented in the epistles? I condemn the eternal hell idea, predestination, sovereign grace instead of man taking action; and because christianity makes exceptional and unique clames for itself, so doed Paul, therefore they also deserve to be extra examined and shouldnt be aloud to make as much hideous mistakes as it has
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 11:20:15 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #154 on: August 03, 2017, 11:19:00 AM »
I would say a good 95% of what Paul writes is not offensive or controversial in any way. It's only a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday and then pronounced horrifying and contributing to future atrocities and discrimination. As someone vehemently protesting the Nietzsche-Nazi link, I would think you of all people would understand that.
also I dont claim Nietzsche infallible as you all seem to do with Paul. Of course the nazis used Nietzsche, but mainly thanks to his antisemitic sister who corrupted and changed his private letters, when in fact he warned her that he would break contact with her if she continued to be an antisemite.
That is a special pleading fallacy. You wish to condemn St Paul directly for anything people used his words for, but then shift all condemnation of Nietzsche to his sister. It could just as easily be argued that people and factions have misrepresented St Paul's writings which resulted in the alleged atrocities that you claim came from his writing.

I think words like infallible are pretty useless. Writings are subject to interpretation and cultural understandings. I certainly don't think all interpretations of St Paul are infallible and I don't claim that my understanding of him is infallible, so to make a claim of infallibility is meaningless.
Do You Believe Paul himself to be infallible in his understanding of God as presented in the epistles?
I don't believe anyone can fully understand God. St Paul himself speaks of a glass darkly as how he can understand God. If you are asking if I think he taught falsehood in his epistles, the answer would be no.
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #155 on: August 03, 2017, 11:25:39 AM »
I would say a good 95% of what Paul writes is not offensive or controversial in any way. It's only a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday and then pronounced horrifying and contributing to future atrocities and discrimination. As someone vehemently protesting the Nietzsche-Nazi link, I would think you of all people would understand that.
also I dont claim Nietzsche infallible as you all seem to do with Paul. Of course the nazis used Nietzsche, but mainly thanks to his antisemitic sister who corrupted and changed his private letters, when in fact he warned her that he would break contact with her if she continued to be an antisemite.
That is a special pleading fallacy. You wish to condemn St Paul directly for anything people used his words for, but then shift all condemnation of Nietzsche to his sister. It could just as easily be argued that people and factions have misrepresented St Paul's writings which resulted in the alleged atrocities that you claim came from his writing.

I think words like infallible are pretty useless. Writings are subject to interpretation and cultural understandings. I certainly don't think all interpretations of St Paul are infallible and I don't claim that my understanding of him is infallible, so to make a claim of infallibility is meaningless.
Do You Believe Paul himself to be infallible in his understanding of God as presented in the epistles?
I don't believe anyone can fully understand God. St Paul himself speaks of a glass darkly as how he can understand God. If you are asking if I think he taught falsehood in his epistles, the answer would be no.
Did Paul, because of the fact that he knew not close to all about God, mistakenly write things that unfortunately were flat out wrong?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #156 on: August 03, 2017, 11:35:38 AM »
Not that I know of. But if you think he did, I'm always willing to examine any well reasoned argument. I'm not opposed to re-evaluating my position on things.
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #157 on: August 03, 2017, 11:39:20 AM »
a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday

In addition to that gem of a quality with beebert, he also looks for an enemy.  Before it was Calvin.  Now, it's Paul.  And soon enough it will be even Christ.  It is not a very difficult leap at all.  One who refuses to seek continuous psychiatric therapy is the cause of his own depravity.


What ya mean? Don't even need a Psychiatrist.
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #158 on: August 03, 2017, 11:44:04 AM »
a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday

In addition to that gem of a quality with beebert, he also looks for an enemy.  Before it was Calvin.  Now, it's Paul.  And soon enough it will be even Christ.  It is not a very difficult leap at all.  One who refuses to seek continuous psychiatric therapy is the cause of his own depravity.


What ya mean? Don't even need a Psychiatrist.

Like the interlocking cherub wheels of Ezekiel?
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #159 on: August 03, 2017, 11:47:50 AM »
This just seems to me like another example in favour for Nietzsche's thoughts over Paul's, if you know what I mean. God is both life "giver" and "destroyer" in the end. I want to be destroyed as in non-existence rather then living on these terms and it is exceptionally hard for me to see how one could feel otherwise. Had God been kind or wise it seems to me, he would have prevented me from coming to life. So my only conclusion is: He wants me destroyed in a much more terrifying way: Eternal destruction as in torture torture torture and torture

Beebert, you choose your own torture.  God never tortured you.
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #160 on: August 03, 2017, 11:55:40 AM »
This just seems to me like another example in favour for Nietzsche's thoughts over Paul's, if you know what I mean. God is both life "giver" and "destroyer" in the end. I want to be destroyed as in non-existence rather then living on these terms and it is exceptionally hard for me to see how one could feel otherwise. Had God been kind or wise it seems to me, he would have prevented me from coming to life. So my only conclusion is: He wants me destroyed in a much more terrifying way: Eternal destruction as in torture torture torture and torture

Beebert, you choose your own torture.  God never tortured you.

Or maybe beebert is the god who tortures himself.
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #161 on: August 03, 2017, 12:04:51 PM »
a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday

In addition to that gem of a quality with beebert, he also looks for an enemy.  Before it was Calvin.  Now, it's Paul.  And soon enough it will be even Christ.  It is not a very difficult leap at all.  One who refuses to seek continuous psychiatric therapy is the cause of his own depravity.


What ya mean? Don't even need a Psychiatrist.

Like the interlocking cherub wheels of Ezekiel?


Don't know? Read the Bible? ...
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #162 on: August 03, 2017, 12:07:26 PM »
THis thread is outrageous. how much crap gets promoted on this site sometimes? I know I am being mean so I will probably get banned while this crisp goes on. So ban me ban me ban me!
This won't even get you a warning. You gotta step up your game a bit more if you want a ban.

I also think it should be expected.  As low of an opinion as I hold of this post, it should be stymied.  We aren't salafists, and our symbol is a cross.  Asking for something like this to be silenced is not a good habit to get into.  The OP is simply expressing his ideas, and I think well within the framework of something this site is meant to handle.

Amen. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #163 on: August 03, 2017, 12:19:20 PM »
THis thread is outrageous. how much crap gets promoted on this site sometimes? I know I am being mean so I will probably get banned while this crisp goes on. So ban me ban me ban me!
This won't even get you a warning. You gotta step up your game a bit more if you want a ban.

I also think it should be expected.  As low of an opinion as I hold of this post, it should be stymied.  We aren't salafists, and our symbol is a cross.  Asking for something like this to be silenced is not a good habit to get into.  The OP is simply expressing his ideas, and I think well within the framework of something this site is meant to handle.

Amen.

This assumes the poster wasn't lamenting the replies the OP was getting. As a rule, attacks on our faith are met with a straight-faced hodge-podge of everything from postmodernism to Buddhism to anti-theism. It's unnerving.

Now, if all an "Orthodox Christian" forum were to have to offer is not being a Salafist forum, then it would have nothing to offer over, say, Reddit, would it? If you can't understand the deep need of pious Christians for pious companionship and communication, then you're not going to understand that some posts deploring the forum are true cries from the heart.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2017, 12:22:44 PM »
To you Peter O'doran: Also, Tao-Te-Ching, Plato, Baghavad-Gita, all explain the profound things that can be found in the New Testament, but they explain it in a far more profound way. The New Testament explanation is for the less intelligent. Unfortunately; many of these unintelligent Christians try to destroy other religions, and call texts like the upanishads demonic. Those are scroundels.
Now here to my reply:
One may call Christ an anti-politician, because his message was a message to the person, a way to make people get away from worshiping hierarchical structures, People way to get away from collective thinking that so easily results in horrible ideologies. Have you ever seen a sane political party,  group, Collective or ideology? No,  in groups insanity is a rule. Christ came to turn man into an authentic being, a self that meets another authentic self that doesnt hide behind ideas, structures, objective thinking, dogmas etc. You may then if you wish call Jesus a rebel in political terms. Paul? The oppisite, his plan was to revaluate the old values in to new hierarchical structures by introducing a new way of sacrifice, from man sacrificing to The Big Other that they feared, to God sacrificing himself. He wanted numbers, Jesus didnt care about numbers. The Big Other, to use a hegelian term, dies on the cross and man is finally left free from fearing it, and is now left alone in union with the holy spirit that becomes present in the here and now.

"Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)"

So to that question, the answer is in the cross. God as this big other, this fearful mystery that rules Nature, dies on the cross. God is not active in history. He is only where man resoponds in love to his vulnerable love. Only there is his power and man's freedom. God can not direct history without man cooperating.

So Paul's political program was to make his ideas of eliminanating the law he was incapable of following known to all so they could be spread, while all that he despised could dissappear, if not now then on the last judgement. Psychologically he is quite easy to get. He hated himself because of his incapability to follow the law - because man has not much Free will to brag with - and expressed this hatred by terrorizing Christians. But suddenly he had a vision thanks to an epileptic seizure: He found in Christ's cross a way to rid himself of his tormented feelings of guilt and self-hatred, and his hate turned into" "love" as long as he could project his anger anger externally; on a last judgement and on all who didnt receive his "Good news". At the same time, like a typical human, he wanted all to Believe in his message in order for him to feel more secure in this invention of his.

Sure, Peter wasn't much better than Paul, but less innocent because he was inferior intellectualy. Btw I doubt the authencity of his letters, especially the 2nd.

Where are the quotations and citations you promised? Instead you heap up more fantastic slander for which you again offer no basis. As I said, by this you disprove yourself.

Quote
You know like me that Paul stresses man's depravity throghout Romans for example, and Christ saves from this depravity, in his Case the inability to keep the law. Jesus on the other hand demanded time after time that we should DO. Matthew 5-7 is just one example,but Paul turned into  "I can't do without grace", grace being a word I believe Jesus never used. And here, on this complete emphazise on God 's grace, power and sovereign freedom that culminated in predestination, contra man's corruption and innate evil soul, Paul made the feelings of guilt, the extremities between guilt contra forgiveness worse than before Christ. In Jesus, man is still capable of doing and changing the course, in Paul not without an interference from God, or in reality, an epileptic seizure

Thank you for Matthew 5-7, altho  as citations usually go it's a bit broad. It certainly doesn't offer support for the Adirondack claims against St. Paul you go on to give. By the way, in St. Paul's letters positive mentions of deeds, doing, and work appear 46 times (the number would be a good bit higher were we to include words of service). These include While it is in the Evangelists that we read that we read "we have all received grace" and "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ"; not to mention such answers as, No man can receive unless it is given him by my Father.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:37:42 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline WPM

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #165 on: August 03, 2017, 12:32:03 PM »
Looks like conflicting views and certain kinds of disagreements.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #166 on: August 03, 2017, 12:32:47 PM »
This just seems to me like another example in favour for Nietzsche's thoughts over Paul's, if you know what I mean. God is both life "giver" and "destroyer" in the end. I want to be destroyed as in non-existence rather then living on these terms and it is exceptionally hard for me to see how one could feel otherwise. Had God been kind or wise it seems to me, he would have prevented me from coming to life. So my only conclusion is: He wants me destroyed in a much more terrifying way: Eternal destruction as in torture torture torture and torture

Beebert, you choose your own torture.  God never tortured you.

Or maybe beebert is the god who tortures himself.

At this point, based on his posts, that could be the truth.  He really does act like his own god
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #167 on: August 03, 2017, 12:42:39 PM »
Beebert why do you think literal is possible
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #168 on: August 03, 2017, 01:07:17 PM »
To you Peter O'doran: Also, Tao-Te-Ching, Plato, Baghavad-Gita, all explain the profound things that can be found in the New Testament, but they explain it in a far more profound way. The New Testament explanation is for the less intelligent. Unfortunately; many of these unintelligent Christians try to destroy other religions, and call texts like the upanishads demonic. Those are scroundels.
Now here to my reply:
One may call Christ an anti-politician, because his message was a message to the person, a way to make people get away from worshiping hierarchical structures, People way to get away from collective thinking that so easily results in horrible ideologies. Have you ever seen a sane political party,  group, Collective or ideology? No,  in groups insanity is a rule. Christ came to turn man into an authentic being, a self that meets another authentic self that doesnt hide behind ideas, structures, objective thinking, dogmas etc. You may then if you wish call Jesus a rebel in political terms. Paul? The oppisite, his plan was to revaluate the old values in to new hierarchical structures by introducing a new way of sacrifice, from man sacrificing to The Big Other that they feared, to God sacrificing himself. He wanted numbers, Jesus didnt care about numbers. The Big Other, to use a hegelian term, dies on the cross and man is finally left free from fearing it, and is now left alone in union with the holy spirit that becomes present in the here and now.

"Where did Christ do these? (What even are they?)"

So to that question, the answer is in the cross. God as this big other, this fearful mystery that rules Nature, dies on the cross. God is not active in history. He is only where man resoponds in love to his vulnerable love. Only there is his power and man's freedom. God can not direct history without man cooperating.

So Paul's political program was to make his ideas of eliminanating the law he was incapable of following known to all so they could be spread, while all that he despised could dissappear, if not now then on the last judgement. Psychologically he is quite easy to get. He hated himself because of his incapability to follow the law - because man has not much Free will to brag with - and expressed this hatred by terrorizing Christians. But suddenly he had a vision thanks to an epileptic seizure: He found in Christ's cross a way to rid himself of his tormented feelings of guilt and self-hatred, and his hate turned into" "love" as long as he could project his anger anger externally; on a last judgement and on all who didnt receive his "Good news". At the same time, like a typical human, he wanted all to Believe in his message in order for him to feel more secure in this invention of his.

Sure, Peter wasn't much better than Paul, but less innocent because he was inferior intellectualy. Btw I doubt the authencity of his letters, especially the 2nd.

Where are the quotations and citations you promised? Instead you heap up more fantastic slander for which you again offer no basis. As I said, by this you disprove yourself.

Quote
You know like me that Paul stresses man's depravity throghout Romans for example, and Christ saves from this depravity, in his Case the inability to keep the law. Jesus on the other hand demanded time after time that we should DO. Matthew 5-7 is just one example,but Paul turned into  "I can't do without grace", grace being a word I believe Jesus never used. And here, on this complete emphazise on God 's grace, power and sovereign freedom that culminated in predestination, contra man's corruption and innate evil soul, Paul made the feelings of guilt, the extremities between guilt contra forgiveness worse than before Christ. In Jesus, man is still capable of doing and changing the course, in Paul not without an interference from God, or in reality, an epileptic seizure

Thank you for Matthew 5-7, altho as citations usually go it's a bit broad. It certainly doesn't offer support for the fantastic claims against St. Paul you go on to give. By the way, in St. Paul's letters positive mentions of deeds, doing, and work appear 46 times (the number would be a good bit higher were we to include words of service). These include "Those things, which ye have both learned and received and heard, and seen in me, do," and "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works." While it is in the Evangelists that we read that we read "we have all received grace" and "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ"; not to mention such answers as, No man can receive unless it is given him by my Father.

Now, to get back to the bulk of what you promised and failed utterly to deliver: It should be apparent by now, perhaps even to yourself, that you have no intimate knowledge of the contents or methods of St. Paul. You are unable to quote, paraphrase, or cite examples of the things you yet continue to multiply against him. As such, as I warned you while waiting on you to redeem yourself, your attacks are baseless and you base.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:07:53 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #169 on: August 03, 2017, 01:21:21 PM »
Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
What in the world are you talking about?

I was just saying getting so easily upset over this thread is pretty silly. Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble. If you don't like what's posted, don't engage it. Let the mods take care of problem threads.

Letting the mods take care of problem threads is a good idea, and if anyone is concerned about where a thread is going, they can report it to the moderators for review and express their concerns.   

That said, I would like to take issue with the idea that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble".  While this may be true in the sense that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to struggle about matters of faith", I consider "stumbling" to be a more all-inclusive idea, and in that sense, yes, much of what he wrote causes one to stumble.  The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     

+1 entirely.

On another Christian site, I successfully led an effort that resulted in a rules change completely prohibiting anti-Pauline discussions, because we were having such severe problems with abusive people who denied that St. Paul was an apostle, and uttered an unstoppable monologue of blasphemy concerning him.

Unfortunately, due to the Protestant evangelical element, it was impossible to get a similiar ban on discussions of St. James and the authenticity of his epistle.

There is also a vile anti-Johannine movement popular among liberal Christians; neo-Alogianists (that is to say, the new unreasonables, to paraphrase the term St. Epiphanius of Salamis reserved for those who reject the Johannine corpus); this movement manifests in books like This Tragic Gospel, which contrasts the Gospel of Mark with the Gospel of John in a manner that essentially says the author of the latter gospel corrupted the Jesus story, as it were.

The sine qua non of rational theological discourse is acceptance of the Nicene Creed and the New Testament canon of St. Athanasius (I would argue that this canon and De Incarnatione, and the importance thereof, render the Athanasian corpus as fallible or infallible as the rest of the New Testament, since he made the final cut, and more than anyone else, sought to promote the Orthodox interpretation thereof).
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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #170 on: August 03, 2017, 01:23:45 PM »
a small portion that gets pulled out and examined six ways till Sunday

In addition to that gem of a quality with beebert, he also looks for an enemy.  Before it was Calvin.  Now, it's Paul.  And soon enough it will be even Christ.  It is not a very difficult leap at all.  One who refuses to seek continuous psychiatric therapy is the cause of his own depravity.


What ya mean? Don't even need a Psychiatrist.

Like the interlocking cherub wheels of Ezekiel?

The OT scholar on Ancient Faith Radio blogs pointed to a medieval Jewish meditative contemplation of these firery wheels as pointing to a pre-Incarnational practice of Hesychasm or divine meditation within the ancient and holy faith of Israel.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #171 on: August 03, 2017, 01:24:36 PM »
Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
What in the world are you talking about?

I was just saying getting so easily upset over this thread is pretty silly. Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble. If you don't like what's posted, don't engage it. Let the mods take care of problem threads.

Letting the mods take care of problem threads is a good idea, and if anyone is concerned about where a thread is going, they can report it to the moderators for review and express their concerns.   

That said, I would like to take issue with the idea that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble".  While this may be true in the sense that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to struggle about matters of faith", I consider "stumbling" to be a more all-inclusive idea, and in that sense, yes, much of what he wrote causes one to stumble.  The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     

Thank you, Mor.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #172 on: August 03, 2017, 01:26:00 PM »
Beebert why do you think literal is possible

A little early in the day to start, isn't it?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #173 on: August 03, 2017, 01:28:16 PM »
Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
What in the world are you talking about?

I was just saying getting so easily upset over this thread is pretty silly. Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble. If you don't like what's posted, don't engage it. Let the mods take care of problem threads.

Letting the mods take care of problem threads is a good idea, and if anyone is concerned about where a thread is going, they can report it to the moderators for review and express their concerns.   

That said, I would like to take issue with the idea that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble".  While this may be true in the sense that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to struggle about matters of faith", I consider "stumbling" to be a more all-inclusive idea, and in that sense, yes, much of what he wrote causes one to stumble.  The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     
Christians should always be strong enough to not stumble in their faith when someone questions them. Otherwise if they do stumble; the fault seems to be their own. Unless it is a Little Child. Now if you find me a huge problem that is a danger for others; then block me. My intention is not to make you stumble in whatever Faith you have if your faith is honest

You are not questioning.  You are defaming.

There is no word in the English language to express the near-infinite extremity of the fanatical extent to which I agree with Mor's posts on this subject, other than perhaps to declare Mor Ephrem's two responses quoted above to be entirely infallible and devoid of error, expressing and manifesting the Christian heresiological tradition of the Fathers of the Holy Orthodox Church.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #174 on: August 03, 2017, 01:34:19 PM »
Oh yes go on a Christian forum posting as a Christian and use abuse that assumes morals are mockable. That makes sense. Or perhaps you should stop and consider what you're all about. If you hate what's right, if you loathe what's good, if you lap up what's vile, if you gorge on what's false, then what are you? What are you? Who are you? What's the point of you? What's your point? You can't hide.
What in the world are you talking about?

I was just saying getting so easily upset over this thread is pretty silly. Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble. If you don't like what's posted, don't engage it. Let the mods take care of problem threads.

Letting the mods take care of problem threads is a good idea, and if anyone is concerned about where a thread is going, they can report it to the moderators for review and express their concerns.   

That said, I would like to take issue with the idea that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to stumble".  While this may be true in the sense that "Nothing beebert posted should cause an Orthodox faithful to struggle about matters of faith", I consider "stumbling" to be a more all-inclusive idea, and in that sense, yes, much of what he wrote causes one to stumble.  The OP contains numerous claims:

1.  Paul is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ
2.  Honest people must choose between the two, implying that those who accept both are somehow fundamentally dishonest
3.  The Church chose Paul, meaning the Church chose "not Christ" ("antichrist"?)
4.  Christianity is an abusive, destructive, life-hating religion
5.  Paul is an enemy of life
6.  Paul's teaching has led to more bloodshed than any other human idea
7.  Paul's teaching led to Hitler's death camps, Mengele's experiments, and all other Nazi atrocities
8.  Paul's teaching causes mental illness
9.  Similar things could be said about the apostle John
10.  Paul's teaching persecutes God and has corrupted the world
11.  Even the 10% of Pauline writings beebert likes are still nevertheless lies
12.  Paul is a liar and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a suppressed hatred
13.  Paul's proclamation of the gospel of the crucified and risen Messiah is an "insane circus" and a "schizophrenic muppet show"
14.  God is "ignorant"
15.  A positive assessment of Paul would still require us to admit that Paul was lying about why Jesus died
16.  Jesus' death was a "cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice"
17.  Christian teaching is the attempt by men who are more ape than artist to understand and explain man
18.  Christian teaching is about maintaining a hierarchical structure to dominate others

When I reported this thread to the moderator, I only mentioned one or two claims, and neither AFAIK is on this list of eighteen from the OP, which means that I could probably add another two dozen if I went through all of beebert's posts in this thread.  Some of the claims are ludicrous, others unimaginative and stale, but still others are blasphemous and abominable.  They cause to stumble because they are thrown out there as stumbling blocks. 

I would like to believe that these are just so many plaintive cries of a troubled soul looking for God, but God isn't found by opposing him so strenuously and deliberately.  These claims, then, should be opposed, mocked, and exposed, if not for beebert if/when he is ready to hear them, then for the sake of others and for the love of God.  No Orthodox faithful can read any of them and find them acceptable in any way.     
Christians should always be strong enough to not stumble in their faith when someone questions them. Otherwise if they do stumble; the fault seems to be their own. Unless it is a Little Child. Now if you find me a huge problem that is a danger for others; then block me. My intention is not to make you stumble in whatever Faith you have if your faith is honest

You are not questioning.  You are defaming.
With regards to What I said, it makes no difference. Many of you probably despise me. But many of you enjoy my posts too, so are you going to ban me for a month or so or not? Let us all vote, why not?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #175 on: August 03, 2017, 01:35:34 PM »
This just seems to me like another example in favour for Nietzsche's thoughts over Paul's, if you know what I mean. God is both life "giver" and "destroyer" in the end. I want to be destroyed as in non-existence rather then living on these terms and it is exceptionally hard for me to see how one could feel otherwise. Had God been kind or wise it seems to me, he would have prevented me from coming to life. So my only conclusion is: He wants me destroyed in a much more terrifying way: Eternal destruction as in torture torture torture and torture

Beebert, you choose your own torture.  God never tortured you.
An atheist would say the same. But let us look at the scriptures. Who tormented Saul with an evil spirit?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #176 on: August 03, 2017, 01:37:24 PM »
Beebs: Drop the martyr complex.  I don't think you're despised (I could be wrong, of course) - but the "Look at what I've just read here!  It's the most fascinating thing ever!  Every Christian has gotten everything wrong forever!  This supersedes everything that has ever come before!" attitude has been (a) done before by others, (b) isn't that compelling for those who have heard it before, and (c) doesn't work particularly well when it's as poorly elucidated as has been attempted in this thread.
I don't typically presume to speak for Mor
You can presume to speak for Mor.  

How in Mor's good name
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Selam

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #177 on: August 03, 2017, 01:44:50 PM »
This just seems to me like another example in favour for Nietzsche's thoughts over Paul's, if you know what I mean. God is both life "giver" and "destroyer" in the end. I want to be destroyed as in non-existence rather then living on these terms and it is exceptionally hard for me to see how one could feel otherwise. Had God been kind or wise it seems to me, he would have prevented me from coming to life. So my only conclusion is: He wants me destroyed in a much more terrifying way: Eternal destruction as in torture torture torture and torture

Beebert, you choose your own torture.  God never tortured you.
An atheist would say the same. But let us look at the scriptures. Who tormented Saul with an evil spirit?
Given that that was written almost 3,000 years ago, do you think it is possible that an idiom was being used there that does not mean that God sent a literal demon to torture him? That would be rather contrary to both the rest of Scripture as well as common sense. The rest of Jewish literature written in that period would make that interpretation rather odd.
God bless!

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #178 on: August 03, 2017, 01:45:33 PM »
Not that I know of. But if you think he did, I'm always willing to examine any well reasoned argument. I'm not opposed to re-evaluating my position on things.
I believe he did. I find a Christ saying one shall forgive endlessly, and a Paul that seems to make forgiveness very limited and as something that is given in certain circumstances: By God's free and sovereign choice, a ones for all sacrifice , where a slip=Damnation (Hebrews 6 and 10).
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Luke

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #179 on: August 03, 2017, 01:57:03 PM »
. . . all explain the profound things that can be found in the New Testament, but they explain it in a far more profound way. The New Testament explanation is for the less intelligent.
"At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants."  -- Matthew11:25, NASB.