Author Topic: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life  (Read 6333 times)

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Offline beebert

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The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« on: August 02, 2017, 04:36:28 PM »
This man is the founder of christianity as we know it, there is no doubt about it. Though of course even more so in the west than the East. But this man is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ, if Christ is to have anything unique to tell us. And in the end an honest man would have to choose. The church chose Paul, and his teachings in combination with Jesus teaching of eternal damnaion, the most disgusting idea in the history of mankind that makes me say with confidence that this idea is the strongest of all reasons as to why the argument that it would be better if mankind never existed is a tenable one. This most disgusting idea combined with Paul's typically jewish worship of a totalitarian and all-powerful Other, has made christianity in to the abusive, destructive and life-hating religion it today is. Paul has no sense of the infinite worth of a human soul, he is the enemy of life par exelence, and complete honesty would lead the combination of Paul's teaching and Jesus to drive a man mad. This is of course something often find in Christian history, and monsterous crimes such as the inquisition and forced conversions are not phenomenas dependent on the time and era in which they occured, But can be directly traced back to the original texts found in the New Testament. Paul's idea has more blood on its conscience than any other idea in human history. Without him, no inquisition, no reformation, no Karl Marx nor nazism. Without him, mental diseases would be less and so would all other miseries. I Will not get started on John of Patmos, But Paul has corrupted the whole world and is a persecutor of God. I like a maximum of 10 percent of his writings, but believe them to be falseness when I dig deeper. I believe he lied and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a surpressed hatred. His proclamation of the elimination of sacrifice by introducing God who sacrifices himself for the forgiveness of sins under the threat of hell, while the single man who is honest would only stand there asking "What the hell is this insane circus? Why has God even started this insanity, this schizophrenic muppet show?" God is just as ignorant as the sacrifice obsessed humans which went before him. At best he is lying about why Jesus is sacrificed (i.e. that Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins, rather the death being a cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice).

Worth and meaning are given without sacrifice, payment or forgiveness. Organized christianity has been a persecutor of God, and dogmatic thought should be abolished. It is all about men not capable to express the truth of man as an artist would, that is, they are too ungifted, like apes who try to imitate men. Sacrifice, punishment, forgiveness and eternal life: These concepts have, when one is brave enough to look deep in to things, been about hierarchy structures and ways to ways to dominate. Without vengeance, revenge and hell, no bliss and heaven. So reasons every follower of Paul.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 04:39:46 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline augustin717

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 04:43:41 PM »
Well we don't quite know who Paul was .
I'm înclined to go with The Dutch Radical School I think ,  and doubt a historical Paul existed or at least not as his image was preserved in the NT.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Alkis

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 04:48:43 PM »
What are you saying about the man that preached God to gentiles? An apostle that was chosen by God Himself? Which is the difference of Paul and Jesus? I can't find one. Paul taught love. The Lord taught love. Paul confess Jesus as Lord and God and Jesus said that too. And much more... The writings of Paul can change lives! Paul inspires so many things. He wrote one of the best passages in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13). Paul is misunderstood by many because they don't know the teachings of the Church, the Old Testament and Second Temple Judaism.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 04:52:15 PM »
Well we don't quite know who Paul was .
I'm înclined to go with The Dutch Radical School I think ,  and doubt a historical Paul existed or at least not as his image was preserved in the NT.
I can see it as reasonable to doubt some figures in antiquity, but St. Paul? That seems crazy to me, what evidence (or lack of) would cast doubt on a historical St. Paul?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 05:02:43 PM »
Well we don't quite know who Paul was .
I'm înclined to go with The Dutch Radical School I think ,  and doubt a historical Paul existed or at least not as his image was preserved in the NT.
I can see it as reasonable to doubt some figures in antiquity, but St. Paul? That seems crazy to me, what evidence (or lack of) would cast doubt on a historical St. Paul?
well the sources contradict each other ( epistles vs Acts) . Then he seems to have been unknown before the Marcionite dispute .
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2017, 05:13:24 PM »
The 'Neetch hated Paul as well, thought of his as scum. Don't know about all that. Seems overreactionary to me, like an olden tymes version of Ann Coulter or Billy ORiler.

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 05:15:14 PM »
The 'Neetch hated Paul as well, thought of his as scum. Don't know about all that. Seems overreactionary to me, like an olden tymes version of Ann Coulter or Billy ORiler.
Yeah beebert's OP reads like pure tendentious rhetoric. Christianity can't be reduced to a morality or a sickness threatening robust ubermenschen.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2017, 05:16:54 PM »
This man is the founder of christianity as we know it, there is no doubt about it. Though of course even more so in the west than the East. But this man is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ, if Christ is to have anything unique to tell us. And in the end an honest man would have to choose. The church chose Paul, and his teachings in combination with Jesus teaching of eternal damnaion, the most disgusting idea in the history of mankind that makes me say with confidence that this idea is the strongest of all reasons as to why the argument that it would be better if mankind never existed is a tenable one. This most disgusting idea combined with Paul's typically jewish worship of a totalitarian and all-powerful Other, has made christianity in to the abusive, destructive and life-hating religion it today is. Paul has no sense of the infinite worth of a human soul, he is the enemy of life par exelence, and complete honesty would lead the combination of Paul's teaching and Jesus to drive a man mad. This is of course something often find in Christian history, and monsterous crimes such as the inquisition and forced conversions are not phenomenas dependent on the time and era in which they occured, But can be directly traced back to the original texts found in the New Testament. Paul's idea has more blood on its conscience than any other idea in human history. Without him, no inquisition, no reformation, no Karl Marx nor nazism. Without him, mental diseases would be less and so would all other miseries. I Will not get started on John of Patmos, But Paul has corrupted the whole world and is a persecutor of God. I like a maximum of 10 percent of his writings, but believe them to be falseness when I dig deeper. I believe he lied and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a surpressed hatred. His proclamation of the elimination of sacrifice by introducing God who sacrifices himself for the forgiveness of sins under the threat of hell, while the single man who is honest would only stand there asking "What the hell is this insane circus? Why has God even started this insanity, this schizophrenic muppet show?" God is just as ignorant as the sacrifice obsessed humans which went before him. At best he is lying about why Jesus is sacrificed (i.e. that Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins, rather the death being a cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice).

Worth and meaning are given without sacrifice, payment or forgiveness. Organized christianity has been a persecutor of God, and dogmatic thought should be abolished. It is all about men not capable to express the truth of man as an artist would, that is, they are too ungifted, like apes who try to imitate men. Sacrifice, punishment, forgiveness and eternal life: These concepts have, when one is brave enough to look deep in to things, been about hierarchy structures and ways to ways to dominate. Without vengeance, revenge and hell, no bliss and heaven. So reasons every follower of Paul.

This couldn't be more genuine BS if the bull defecated into my lap. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline augustin717

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 05:17:43 PM »
To be concise : it's not a final conclusion but it seems to me that Paul as we have him in the NT is on the older layer, a figure from the Marcionite tradition whom Acts and some of the epistles attributes to him try to make Catholic.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 05:22:21 PM »
What are you saying about the man that preached God to gentiles? An apostle that was chosen by God Himself? Which is the difference of Paul and Jesus? I can't find one. Paul taught love. The Lord taught love. Paul confess Jesus as Lord and God and Jesus said that too. And much more... The writings of Paul can change lives! Paul inspires so many things. He wrote one of the best passages in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13). Paul is misunderstood by many because they don't know the teachings of the Church, the Old Testament and Second Temple Judaism.
So Jesus and Paul are the same to you? I find in Paul a completely different spirit, a surpressed want to dominate combined with a wish for all things to be over. I find occasional bursts of joy and insight, probably because of epilepsy, but in the end a man who didnt understand the consequences of his writings. The world would have been a better Place if he had remained quiet or at least explained himself. You call his preaching love. Just because I say 11 times that love is important doesnt mean I stand for it in depth, reading Paul in its entirety eliminates the idea for me that he preached love, no matter how beautiful corinthians 13 is (though these days I cant even read this chapter without feeling sick). And a God who poops out new men in to existence when we are already too many, in to a world of misery and evil, without their consent and under the threat of ETERNAL hell, while calling himself both all-loving and all-powerful (what a great contradiction considering how these words have been used)... Is this love? What else to it? The church's and God's condemnation against the man who criticizes Paul who was just a man. This is life-killing and a crime against creativity. Just take the behavior of the churches against Nazi Germany! It is the epitome of turning a great man's (Jesus) message into nihilism. These Christian cowards make me puke! They should stand for what they preach or else be honest enough to leave their faith immediately that they havent got in their hearts. But then when one looks to Paul and his pathetic worship of the role of the greatest evil that exists; the state, one ceases to wonder. To say that God is a ruler of the state or anything that even gives a hint to something close to such a belief is hideous, and of course you find it in the jurist and politician Paul. His promotion of slavery is another problem. Yes to compare this insect with someone like Buddha for example, or Socrates, or even Francis of Assisi, is almost criminal it seems to me.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:23:28 PM by beebert »
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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 05:32:51 PM »
What are you saying about the man that preached God to gentiles? An apostle that was chosen by God Himself? Which is the difference of Paul and Jesus? I can't find one. Paul taught love. The Lord taught love. Paul confess Jesus as Lord and God and Jesus said that too. And much more... The writings of Paul can change lives! Paul inspires so many things. He wrote one of the best passages in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13). Paul is misunderstood by many because they don't know the teachings of the Church, the Old Testament and Second Temple Judaism.
So Jesus and Paul are the same to you? I find in Paul a completely different spirit, a surpressed want to dominate combined with a wish for all things to be over. I find occasional bursts of joy and insight, probably because of epilepsy, but in the end a man who didnt understand the consequences of his writings. The world would have been a better Place if he had remained quiet or at least explained himself. You call his preaching love. Just because I say 11 times that love is important doesnt mean I stand for it in depth, reading Paul in its entirety eliminates the idea for me that he preached love, no matter how beautiful corinthians 13 is (though these days I cant even read this chapter without feeling sick). And a God who poops out new men in to existence when we are already too many, in to a world of misery and evil, without their consent and under the threat of ETERNAL hell, while calling himself both all-loving and all-powerful (what a great contradiction considering how these words have been used)... Is this love? What else to it? The church's and God's condemnation against the man who criticizes Paul who was just a man. This is life-killing and a crime against creativity. Just take the behavior of the churches against Nazi Germany! It is the epitome of turning a great man's (Jesus) message into nihilism. These Christian cowards make me puke! They should stand for what they preach or else be honest enough to leave their faith immediately that they havent got in their hearts. But then when one looks to Paul and his pathetic worship of the role of the greatest evil that exists; the state, one ceases to wonder. To say that God is a ruler of the state or anything that even gives a hint to something close to such a belief is hideous, and of course you find it in the jurist and politician Paul. His promotion of slavery is another problem. Yes to compare this insect with someone like Buddha for example, or Socrates, or even Francis of Assisi, is almost criminal it seems to me.

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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 05:34:46 PM »
What are you saying about the man that preached God to gentiles? An apostle that was chosen by God Himself? Which is the difference of Paul and Jesus? I can't find one. Paul taught love. The Lord taught love. Paul confess Jesus as Lord and God and Jesus said that too. And much more... The writings of Paul can change lives! Paul inspires so many things. He wrote one of the best passages in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13). Paul is misunderstood by many because they don't know the teachings of the Church, the Old Testament and Second Temple Judaism.
So Jesus and Paul are the same to you? I find in Paul a completely different spirit, a surpressed want to dominate combined with a wish for all things to be over. I find occasional bursts of joy and insight, probably because of epilepsy, but in the end a man who didnt understand the consequences of his writings. The world would have been a better Place if he had remained quiet or at least explained himself. You call his preaching love. Just because I say 11 times that love is important doesnt mean I stand for it in depth, reading Paul in its entirety eliminates the idea for me that he preached love, no matter how beautiful corinthians 13 is (though these days I cant even read this chapter without feeling sick). And a God who poops out new men in to existence when we are already too many, in to a world of misery and evil, without their consent and under the threat of ETERNAL hell, while calling himself both all-loving and all-powerful (what a great contradiction considering how these words have been used)... Is this love? What else to it? The church's and God's condemnation against the man who criticizes Paul who was just a man. This is life-killing and a crime against creativity. Just take the behavior of the churches against Nazi Germany! It is the epitome of turning a great man's (Jesus) message into nihilism. These Christian cowards make me puke! They should stand for what they preach or else be honest enough to leave their faith immediately that they havent got in their hearts. But then when one looks to Paul and his pathetic worship of the role of the greatest evil that exists; the state, one ceases to wonder. To say that God is a ruler of the state or anything that even gives a hint to something close to such a belief is hideous, and of course you find it in the jurist and politician Paul. His promotion of slavery is another problem. Yes to compare this insect with someone like Buddha for example, or Socrates, or even Francis of Assisi, is almost criminal it seems to me.

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A nihilist could say that about anything and everything.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:35:15 PM by beebert »
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Offline youssef

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 05:38:26 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2017, 05:40:54 PM »
Paul didn't promote slavery. In Timothy 2 says it is unlawful to sell slaves. In 1 Corinthians 7 he says that if a slave has the ability to free himself let it be. In other passages he says to slaves to have patience with their masters. And to masters to be good. Where is the problem here? All the evil of this world is due to the fact that people refuse to obey to God. All the heresies are because people think themselves as genious and correct in their own interpretation of the divine scriptures. This is what heresy means in greek. The greek verb means elect.  They elect what to believe and don't obey to the Church of God. I realise that you have a problem with eternal damnation. Why? Is it unfair for evil and unrepented men to have this fortune? Or is it fair to receive eternal life with the saints who obeyed and lived a rightneous life? Yes we must pray for their salvation too. Yes God want all to be saved because He still loves evil people. But this doesn't mean that evil people want this too. They fight God. They fight men. If you understand better the Old Testament then you will understand better everything in the New Testament. I have many things to teach you and direct you what to read. If you want send me a PM.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 05:46:03 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2017, 05:49:35 PM »
Paul didn't promote slavery. In Timothy 2 says it is unlawful to sell slaves. In 1 Corinthians 7 he says that if a slave has the ability to free himself let it be. In other passages he says to slaves to have patience with their masters. And to masters to be good. Where is the problem here? All the evil of this world is due to the fact that people refuse to obey to God. All the heresies are because people think themselves as genious and correct in their own interpretation of the divine scriptures. This is what heresy means in greek. The greek verb means elect.  They elect what to believe and don't obey to the Church of God. I realise that you have a problem with eternal damnation. Why? Is it unfair for evil and unrepented men to have this fortune? Or is it fair to receive eternal life with the saints who obeyed and lived a rightneous life? Yes we must pray for their salvation too. Yes God want all to be saved because He still loves evil people. But this doesn't mean that evil people want this too. They fight God. They fight men. If you understand better the Old Testament then you will understand better everything in the New Testament. I have many things to teach you and direct you what to read. If you want send me a PM.
"Why? Is it unfair for evil and unrepented men to have this fortune?"
Is it unfair for a victim(because evil is to be Born under these circumstances that christianity present) that becomes evil during a span of perhaps 70 years to be in torment forever and ever and ever without end as a punishment mainly for being born and for God failing? Yes. Without the slightest doubt.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:50:19 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2017, 05:53:35 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.
You are at least good at showing a Christian's true face.

I like Kierkegaard because he is honest at least with what it means to be a christian, and proves the complete insanity of the God a Christian believes in and what insanely mental tortures one must endure in his name without ever being certain of anything
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:53:59 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline youssef

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2017, 05:56:34 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.

 ;D
I am not saying that they are not good men, i had say that they are influenced by the culture they lived in. So we shouldn't accept all the writing. That is the whey we read the writing of them, this writing are not from God they are the experience of Paul with God.
 

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2017, 05:59:06 PM »
You write in judicial terms and these terms are not orthodox terms. Not even the holy scriptures use these terms. Judge in Israel was a man that saved people during difficult times and brought justice between people according to the Law of God. He was not there to punish. Punishment was the last thing that might done. There were and are other things firstly to be done. And the Lord is a Judge too. He saves us and judges us according to our hearts and deeds. He is a Fair Judge. He will give you exactly what you are worthy about. Atonement in hebrew means cover. He covers our sins with His Body and Blood. Not placate an angry Father. 
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline scamandrius

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2017, 06:03:20 PM »
This man is the founder of christianity as we know it, there is no doubt about it. Though of course even more so in the west than the East. But this man is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ, if Christ is to have anything unique to tell us. And in the end an honest man would have to choose. The church chose Paul, and his teachings in combination with Jesus teaching of eternal damnaion, the most disgusting idea in the history of mankind that makes me say with confidence that this idea is the strongest of all reasons as to why the argument that it would be better if mankind never existed is a tenable one. This most disgusting idea combined with Paul's typically jewish worship of a totalitarian and all-powerful Other, has made christianity in to the abusive, destructive and life-hating religion it today is. Paul has no sense of the infinite worth of a human soul, he is the enemy of life par exelence, and complete honesty would lead the combination of Paul's teaching and Jesus to drive a man mad. This is of course something often find in Christian history, and monsterous crimes such as the inquisition and forced conversions are not phenomenas dependent on the time and era in which they occured, But can be directly traced back to the original texts found in the New Testament. Paul's idea has more blood on its conscience than any other idea in human history. Without him, no inquisition, no reformation, no Karl Marx nor nazism. Without him, mental diseases would be less and so would all other miseries. I Will not get started on John of Patmos, But Paul has corrupted the whole world and is a persecutor of God. I like a maximum of 10 percent of his writings, but believe them to be falseness when I dig deeper. I believe he lied and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a surpressed hatred. His proclamation of the elimination of sacrifice by introducing God who sacrifices himself for the forgiveness of sins under the threat of hell, while the single man who is honest would only stand there asking "What the hell is this insane circus? Why has God even started this insanity, this schizophrenic muppet show?" God is just as ignorant as the sacrifice obsessed humans which went before him. At best he is lying about why Jesus is sacrificed (i.e. that Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins, rather the death being a cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice).

Worth and meaning are given without sacrifice, payment or forgiveness. Organized christianity has been a persecutor of God, and dogmatic thought should be abolished. It is all about men not capable to express the truth of man as an artist would, that is, they are too ungifted, like apes who try to imitate men. Sacrifice, punishment, forgiveness and eternal life: These concepts have, when one is brave enough to look deep in to things, been about hierarchy structures and ways to ways to dominate. Without vengeance, revenge and hell, no bliss and heaven. So reasons every follower of Paul.

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2017, 06:03:25 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.
You are at least good at showing a Christian's true face.

No, I'm not.  If you knew anything about Christianity that was true, that would be evident. 

You are asking us to believe your opinion of Paul rather than Jesus' and Peter's opinion of Paul.  That's just stupid.  It's not an abdication of Christianity to call anti-Christian ideas stupid.  It's the truth. 

Quote
I like Kierkegaard because he is honest at least with what it means to be a christian, and proves the complete insanity of the God a Christian believes in and what insanely mental tortures one must endure in his name without ever being certain of anything

Ah, yes.  Jesus doesn't know anything about Christianity, but Kierkegaard does. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2017, 06:05:24 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.

pro·jec·tion  (prə-jĕk′shən) n.
8. Psychology
a. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others: "Even trained anthropologists have been guilty of unconscious projection—of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field" (Alex Shoumatoff).
b. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.

^Also people who are not the aforementioned.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 06:05:58 PM »
I am not saying that they are not good men, i had say that they are influenced by the culture they lived in. So we shouldn't accept all the writing. That is the whey we read the writing of them, this writing are not from God they are the experience of Paul with God.

Certainly we have to understand them in their context, but that doesn't mean we are free to disregard anything we feel is not compatible with our context. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2017, 06:06:36 PM »
You write in judicial terms and these terms are not orthodox terms. Not even the holy scriptures use these terms. Judge in Israel was a man that saved people during difficult times and brought justice between people according to the Law of God. He was not there to punish. Punishment was the last thing that might done. There were and are other things firstly to be done. And the Lord is a Judge too. He saves us and judges us according to our hearts and deeds. He is a Fair Judge. He will give you exactly what you are worthy about. Atonement in hebrew means cover. He covers our sins with His Body and Blood. Not placate an angry Father.
What in my last post was juridicial terms and thinking?
I know what atonement means. To me it seems like saying "God made atonement" as if he had to make atonement, means he never really forgived man, which really means he never really could forgive himself. Perhaps that is the reason for it all, he couldn't forgive himself and therefore committed suicide; in order for US to forgive him instead of being anti-theists?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 06:11:02 PM »
You write in judicial terms and these terms are not orthodox terms. Not even the holy scriptures use these terms. Judge in Israel was a man that saved people during difficult times and brought justice between people according to the Law of God. He was not there to punish. Punishment was the last thing that might done. There were and are other things firstly to be done. And the Lord is a Judge too. He saves us and judges us according to our hearts and deeds. He is a Fair Judge. He will give you exactly what you are worthy about. Atonement in hebrew means cover. He covers our sins with His Body and Blood. Not placate an angry Father.
What in my last post was juridicial terms and thinking?
I know what atonement means. To me it seems like saying "God made atonement" as if he had to make atonement, means he never really forgived man, which really means he never really could forgive himself. Perhaps that is the reason for it all, he couldn't forgive himself and therefore committed suicide; in order for US to forgive him instead of being anti-theists?
God the Word would become man EVEN IF WE DIDN'T SIN. He didn't became man just for the ancestral sin and sin. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. Which means our cause and our goal. In Christ we find perfection and completion. That is why it was predestinated before ages to become a man. To break this bridge between God and creation.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2017, 06:13:18 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.
You are at least good at showing a Christian's true face.

No, I'm not.  If you knew anything about Christianity that was true, that would be evident. 

You are asking us to believe your opinion of Paul rather than Jesus' and Peter's opinion of Paul.  That's just stupid.  It's not an abdication of Christianity to call anti-Christian ideas stupid.  It's the truth. 

Quote
I like Kierkegaard because he is honest at least with what it means to be a christian, and proves the complete insanity of the God a Christian believes in and what insanely mental tortures one must endure in his name without ever being certain of anything

Ah, yes.  Jesus doesn't know anything about Christianity, but Kierkegaard does.
"Jesus doesn't know anything about Christianity, but Kierkegaard does"

One main difference out of many between me and Kierkegaard is probably that he loved Jesus; while I find the Jesus of the gospels to be human all too human to use a classical term. He is in many ways terrible news and a contradictory, angry and scary figure. But my main problem is Paul. Of Course I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul and even to Jesus as presented by most christians.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Luke

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2017, 06:15:03 PM »
This man is the founder of christianity as we know it, there is no doubt about it. Though of course even more so in the west than the East. But this man is opposed to the fundamental spirit of Christ, if Christ is to have anything unique to tell us. And in the end an honest man would have to choose. The church chose Paul, and his teachings in combination with Jesus teaching of eternal damnaion, the most disgusting idea in the history of mankind that makes me say with confidence that this idea is the strongest of all reasons as to why the argument that it would be better if mankind never existed is a tenable one. This most disgusting idea combined with Paul's typically jewish worship of a totalitarian and all-powerful Other, has made christianity in to the abusive, destructive and life-hating religion it today is. Paul has no sense of the infinite worth of a human soul, he is the enemy of life par exelence, and complete honesty would lead the combination of Paul's teaching and Jesus to drive a man mad. This is of course something often find in Christian history, and monsterous crimes such as the inquisition and forced conversions are not phenomenas dependent on the time and era in which they occured, But can be directly traced back to the original texts found in the New Testament. Paul's idea has more blood on its conscience than any other idea in human history. Without him, no inquisition, no reformation, no Karl Marx nor nazism. Without him, mental diseases would be less and so would all other miseries. I Will not get started on John of Patmos, But Paul has corrupted the whole world and is a persecutor of God. I like a maximum of 10 percent of his writings, but believe them to be falseness when I dig deeper. I believe he lied and was deluded, manipulative and filled with a surpressed hatred. His proclamation of the elimination of sacrifice by introducing God who sacrifices himself for the forgiveness of sins under the threat of hell, while the single man who is honest would only stand there asking "What the hell is this insane circus? Why has God even started this insanity, this schizophrenic muppet show?" God is just as ignorant as the sacrifice obsessed humans which went before him. At best he is lying about why Jesus is sacrificed (i.e. that Jesus died as a sacrifice for sins, rather the death being a cultural act of power to cause people to alter their relationship to sacrifice).

Worth and meaning are given without sacrifice, payment or forgiveness. Organized christianity has been a persecutor of God, and dogmatic thought should be abolished. It is all about men not capable to express the truth of man as an artist would, that is, they are too ungifted, like apes who try to imitate men. Sacrifice, punishment, forgiveness and eternal life: These concepts have, when one is brave enough to look deep in to things, been about hierarchy structures and ways to ways to dominate. Without vengeance, revenge and hell, no bliss and heaven. So reasons every follower of Paul.


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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2017, 06:15:13 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.
You are at least good at showing a Christian's true face.

No, I'm not.  If you knew anything about Christianity that was true, that would be evident. 

You are asking us to believe your opinion of Paul rather than Jesus' and Peter's opinion of Paul.  That's just stupid.  It's not an abdication of Christianity to call anti-Christian ideas stupid.  It's the truth. 

Quote
I like Kierkegaard because he is honest at least with what it means to be a christian, and proves the complete insanity of the God a Christian believes in and what insanely mental tortures one must endure in his name without ever being certain of anything

Ah, yes.  Jesus doesn't know anything about Christianity, but Kierkegaard does.
"Jesus doesn't know anything about Christianity, but Kierkegaard does"

One main difference out of many between me and Kierkegaard is probably that he loved Jesus; while I find the Jesus of the gospels to be human all too human to use a classical term. He is in many ways terrible news and a contradictory, angry and scary figure. But my main problem is Paul. Of Course I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul and even to Jesus as presented by most christians.

Enjoy your idolatry, I guess. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline youssef

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2017, 06:19:42 PM »
I am not saying that they are not good men, i had say that they are influenced by the culture they lived in. So we shouldn't accept all the writing. That is the whey we read the writing of them, this writing are not from God they are the experience of Paul with God.

Certainly we have to understand them in their context, but that doesn't mean we are free to disregard anything we feel is not compatible with our context.

For me now for exemple i don't consider one as a true christian today if he is against social right, gender right, homosexual right and the full equality between men and women in the church.


Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2017, 06:28:07 PM »
You write in judicial terms and these terms are not orthodox terms. Not even the holy scriptures use these terms. Judge in Israel was a man that saved people during difficult times and brought justice between people according to the Law of God. He was not there to punish. Punishment was the last thing that might done. There were and are other things firstly to be done. And the Lord is a Judge too. He saves us and judges us according to our hearts and deeds. He is a Fair Judge. He will give you exactly what you are worthy about. Atonement in hebrew means cover. He covers our sins with His Body and Blood. Not placate an angry Father.
What in my last post was juridicial terms and thinking?
I know what atonement means. To me it seems like saying "God made atonement" as if he had to make atonement, means he never really forgived man, which really means he never really could forgive himself. Perhaps that is the reason for it all, he couldn't forgive himself and therefore committed suicide; in order for US to forgive him instead of being anti-theists?
God the Word would become man EVEN IF WE DIDN'T SIN. He didn't became man just for the ancestral sin and sin. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. Which means our cause and our goal. In Christ we find perfection and completion. That is why it was predestinated before ages to become a man. To break this bridge between God and creation.
I Only Believe in effects. Not causes. But if the Christian God exists, there are of course "causes", or simplu one cause: him. And therefore also one guilty, which he perhaps realized on the cross. Why did God create a world where this bridge came to exist? To say he would be incarnated anyway is nothing but mere speculation. Did God not want it this way? How could he then be so irresponsible as to create men with "free will"(free will is a lie I am sure but here I must try to use your language),  knowing its catastrophical consequences? And then after that he incarnates, and threatens people with the most horrible things imaginable if they dont obey him and follow him through his mess. And later on, he once again hides himself and provides us only with a book filled with contradictions and doomed to be misunderstood, and a Church that has either corrupted his message more than once, or oppressed people, or hided its teachings. While Jesus sits glorifed next to his father, leaving us tyrannized by his threats and seeming to be quite indifferent to the fate of most of us.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline youssef

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2017, 06:28:52 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.

pro·jec·tion  (prə-jĕk′shən) n.
8. Psychology
a. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others: "Even trained anthropologists have been guilty of unconscious projection—of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field" (Alex Shoumatoff).
b. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.

^Also people who are not the aforementioned.

Here we are in a different subject. So you won't us to be hypocrite and accept something that we don't considere true. As the end religion come fist as a psychological question.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2017, 06:32:26 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.
You are at least good at showing a Christian's true face.

No, I'm not.  If you knew anything about Christianity that was true, that would be evident. 

You are asking us to believe your opinion of Paul rather than Jesus' and Peter's opinion of Paul.  That's just stupid.  It's not an abdication of Christianity to call anti-Christian ideas stupid.  It's the truth. 

Quote
I like Kierkegaard because he is honest at least with what it means to be a christian, and proves the complete insanity of the God a Christian believes in and what insanely mental tortures one must endure in his name without ever being certain of anything

Ah, yes.  Jesus doesn't know anything about Christianity, but Kierkegaard does.
"Jesus doesn't know anything about Christianity, but Kierkegaard does"

One main difference out of many between me and Kierkegaard is probably that he loved Jesus; while I find the Jesus of the gospels to be human all too human to use a classical term. He is in many ways terrible news and a contradictory, angry and scary figure. But my main problem is Paul. Of Course I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul and even to Jesus as presented by most christians.

Enjoy your idolatry, I guess.
Let us say I only Said one of these two things:
1. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul
2. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul because I am certain he had far more insight about the human nature and that he can teach a man more.

Would any of these two statements make me an idolater according to you?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:33:02 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2017, 06:32:51 PM »
I am not saying that they are not good men, i had say that they are influenced by the culture they lived in. So we shouldn't accept all the writing. That is the whey we read the writing of them, this writing are not from God they are the experience of Paul with God.

Certainly we have to understand them in their context, but that doesn't mean we are free to disregard anything we feel is not compatible with our context.

For me now for exemple i don't consider one as a true christian today if he is against social right, gender right, homosexual right and the full equality between men and women in the church.

What is "social right"? 

What is "gender right"?

What is "homosexual right"? 

What is "full equality between men and women in the church"? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2017, 06:33:15 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.

pro·jec·tion  (prə-jĕk′shən) n.
8. Psychology
a. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others: "Even trained anthropologists have been guilty of unconscious projection—of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field" (Alex Shoumatoff).
b. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.

^Also people who are not the aforementioned.

Here we are in a different subject. So you won't us to be hypocrite and accept something that we don't considere true. As the end religion come fist as a psychological question.

No, I don't want you to be hypocrites. Being sensible and acknowledging that something can be true even if you don't consider it so, on the other hand...
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2017, 06:34:10 PM »
Let us say I only Said one of these two things:
1. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul
2. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul because I am certain he har far more insight about the human nature and that he cm teach a man more.

Would any of these two statements make me an idolater according to you?

Yes.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2017, 06:36:03 PM »
I meant to build a bridge between Him and men hahaha I confused the verbs. :p He created men because He wants to share His love, His  glory, His light with us because God is love. He made the world for our glorification. For our pleasure. For our deification. He is everything for us. We don't exist without Him. He is also a "consuming fire". In fire the gold becomes brighter. The wood is burnt. So it depends on our choice how we will receive the flame of God. We commune with Him and be united with Him through His Son and in His Spirit. And if we sin we can still find our reconciliation with our Creator through His Body and Blood. We are to get dressed with that heavenly body. We are to be a trhone and temple of God. We are to participate in His glory and light. And so many other things ....
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:41:06 PM by Alkis »
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2017, 06:39:27 PM »
I don't like many of the writing of Paul. For me i look to the writing of Paul, the apostal writing and the act of the apostal full of influence from the culture they live in we shouldn't take all this writing seriously.

Quote
Acts 9

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Quote
II Peter 3

15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

^People who are not beebert or youssef.

pro·jec·tion  (prə-jĕk′shən) n.
8. Psychology
a. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or suppositions to others: "Even trained anthropologists have been guilty of unconscious projection—of clothing the subjects of their research in theories brought with them into the field" (Alex Shoumatoff).
b. The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, or desires to someone or something as a naive or unconscious defense against anxiety or guilt.

^Also people who are not the aforementioned.

Here we are in a different subject. So you won't us to be hypocrite and accept something that we don't considere true. As the end religion come fist as a psychological question.

No, I don't want you to be hypocrites. Being sensible and acknowledging that something can be true even if you don't consider it so, on the other hand...
Have I ever said christianity can not be true? Rather the opposite. If anyone here is INsensible to different possibilites it is he who opposes me in the way he does. Even if christianity is true, I will not stop making these critiques since I experience them valid. If I did stop because it would benefit me(heaven instead of hell), I would be a hypocrite.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline augustin717

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2017, 06:40:14 PM »
Quote
You are asking us to believe your opinion of Paul rather than Jesus' and Peter's opinion of Paul.  That's just stupid.  It's not an abdication of Christianity to call anti-Christian ideas stupid.  It's the truth. 
You can't possibly believe that Acts quotes Jesus, or Peter wrote II Peter :-)
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2017, 06:40:19 PM »
Let us say I only Said one of these two things:
1. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul
2. I prefer Kierkegaard to Paul because I am certain he har far more insight about the human nature and that he cm teach a man more.

Would any of these two statements make me an idolater according to you?

Yes.
One or both?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2017, 06:46:20 PM »
I meant to build a bridge between Him and men hahaha I confused the verbs. :p He created men because He wants to share His love, His  glory, His light with us because God is love. He made the world for our glorification. For our pleasure. For our deification. He is everything for us. We don't exist without Him. He is also a "consuming fire". In fire the gold becomes brighter. The wood is burnt. So it depends on our choice how we will receive the flame of God. We commune with Him and be united with Him through His Son and in His Spirit. And if we sin we can still find our reconciliation with our Creator through His Body and Blood. We are to get dressed with that heavenly body. We are to be a trhone and temple of God. We are to participate in His glory and light. And so many other things ....
And what if I find the weight of evil now to not jusitfy him and his kingdom in his omnipotence? What if I consider NOTHING to justify Aushwitz, and that to try and make a justification of it based on future bliss and torment is not just untenable, but morally reprehensible? Because I do.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:46:46 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline youssef

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2017, 06:50:07 PM »
I am not saying that they are not good men, i had say that they are influenced by the culture they lived in. So we shouldn't accept all the writing. That is the whey we read the writing of them, this writing are not from God they are the experience of Paul with God.

Certainly we have to understand them in their context, but that doesn't mean we are free to disregard anything we feel is not compatible with our context.

For me now for exemple i don't consider one as a true christian today if he is against social right, gender right, homosexual right and the full equality between men and women in the church.

What is "social right"? 

What is "gender right"?

What is "homosexual right"? 

What is "full equality between men and women in the church"?

I think you know what i meant. For the last one having women priest, women patriarch and women pope.

Offline Alkis

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2017, 06:53:04 PM »
I meant to build a bridge between Him and men hahaha I confused the verbs. :p He created men because He wants to share His love, His  glory, His light with us because God is love. He made the world for our glorification. For our pleasure. For our deification. He is everything for us. We don't exist without Him. He is also a "consuming fire". In fire the gold becomes brighter. The wood is burnt. So it depends on our choice how we will receive the flame of God. We commune with Him and be united with Him through His Son and in His Spirit. And if we sin we can still find our reconciliation with our Creator through His Body and Blood. We are to get dressed with that heavenly body. We are to be a trhone and temple of God. We are to participate in His glory and light. And so many other things ....
And what if I find the weight of evil now to not jusitfy him and his kingdom in his omnipotence? What if I consider NOTHING to justify Aushwitz, and that to try and make a justification of it based on future bliss and torment is not just untenable, but morally reprehensible? Because I do.
I didn't understand exactly what you said. Evil is not an existence. It is not eternal. It is just the lack of good, the lack of God. And this is due to our free will and logic. Love isn't compalsive. That 's why our Creator made us according to His image and likeness.  If He forced me to do good so how could I love Him? To have a relationship with someone you must choose it. You are not forced to do it. To become a child of God you must choose it.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2017, 06:55:03 PM »
THis thread is outrageous. how much crap gets promoted on this site sometimes? I know I am being mean so I will probably get banned while this crisp goes on. So ban me ban me ban me!
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Offline beebert

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of life
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2017, 07:04:28 PM »
I meant to build a bridge between Him and men hahaha I confused the verbs. :p He created men because He wants to share His love, His  glory, His light with us because God is love. He made the world for our glorification. For our pleasure. For our deification. He is everything for us. We don't exist without Him. He is also a "consuming fire". In fire the gold becomes brighter. The wood is burnt. So it depends on our choice how we will receive the flame of God. We commune with Him and be united with Him through His Son and in His Spirit. And if we sin we can still find our reconciliation with our Creator through His Body and Blood. We are to get dressed with that heavenly body. We are to be a trhone and temple of God. We are to participate in His glory and light. And so many other things ....
And what if I find the weight of evil now to not jusitfy him and his kingdom in his omnipotence? What if I consider NOTHING to justify Aushwitz, and that to try and make a justification of it based on future bliss and torment is not just untenable, but morally reprehensible? Because I do.
I didn't understand exactly what you said. Evil is not an existence. It is not eternal. It is just the lack of good, the lack of God. And this is due to our free will and logic. Love isn't compalsive. That 's why our Creator made us according to His image and likeness.  If He forced me to do good so how could I love Him? To have a relationship with someone you must choose it. You are not forced to do it. To become a child of God you must choose it.
I dont find heaven worth it because of things like Auschwitz.
Of course I am FORCED without a choice. Everything else is an excuse. Sure I can make the fatal mistake to stumble when I shouldnt and cause my damnation, but he who really caused it was he who forced me in to existence and then forces me to love him for it. "No no! You have the wonderful gift of choice! You are not forced to love him and his failure, you can also choose HELL, a burning fire of unending tortures. You see, God loves you so much"
What a joke. I havent found one single human who can answer my question why I should accept this absurdity when I have not even agreed to be cast in to this game.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 07:07:52 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

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Re: The apostle Paul - An enemy of lifestyle
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2017, 07:05:53 PM »
THis thread is outrageous. how much crap gets promoted on this site sometimes? I know I am being mean so I will probably get banned while this crisp goes on. So ban me ban me ban me!

Acting like a child should go in the Superfluous or Random Postings threads.