Author Topic: The Tablitho and the Antimension  (Read 1371 times)

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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 04:53:09 PM »
Actually they're quite Nestorian and not embarrassed by it at all, if the interview several years ago of their spiritual head, in exile here in the U.S., is any indication.

Please supply a link. The late Mar Dinkha IV rarely granted interviews. I know for a fact he distanced the church from Nestorius in his enthronement address.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 06:00:02 PM »
Video of a consecration of an Assyrian altar.  They do place a stiffened iliton in the center after the altar cloth is placed.

https://youtu.be/ydap97Rugns
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 06:26:40 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 06:32:34 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

Yes. This was done in the Los Angeles church as well. It is invisible once the Altar is covered.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 06:50:06 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 06:38:54 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2017, 08:01:05 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.

To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2017, 08:03:22 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.

To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.

Is glass not an option?
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2017, 08:10:49 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

Not sure. There must be a reason.

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.




Is glass not an option?


To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 10:08:09 PM by Brigidsboy »
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2017, 08:21:12 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.

To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.

Since they used red duct tape to seal it to the altar I figured it wouldn't be removed.
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2017, 10:06:13 PM »
It's actually a red ribbon, such as is put around a child at his/her baptism. The service book likens the anointing of the altar to a baptismal service.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2017, 08:09:50 AM »
Were you a member of the Assyrian Church at some point?
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2017, 10:19:33 AM »
Were you a member of the Assyrian Church at some point?

I live near one of the largest parishes of the Church of the East in California. I have come to know them quite well.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2017, 12:02:48 PM »
Oh, how I hate liturgical plastic.

Yes, never seen that before.  I guess that is to seal in the Chrism used to anoint the altar?

Not sure. There must be a reason.

I just assumed it was to protect linens...at least I hope so.




Is glass not an option?


To keep the oil on the altar permanently and to protect the linens.

Interesting.  Do you know what they used for this purpose before plastic? 
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2017, 02:56:38 PM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 02:56:51 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2017, 10:48:36 AM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2017, 07:18:01 AM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

This is very interesting.

I have a book on the history of the Assyrian church, which also details the genocide, a reprint of a 1915 original, and it documents the extreme poverty of the Church of the East at that time.  According to it, there was an Anglican missionary society that developed a special friendship with the Church of the East, and in England, funds were raised by the altar guilds at various churches, which were used to donate vestments and paraments.

To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2017, 01:23:22 PM »
To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

They're not very different. 

Quote
Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.

How do you collect vestments and not know that that's a fairly common galloon?  You can buy yards and yards of it at Lalame.  It's probably the easiest thing to turn into a stole.
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2017, 01:46:17 PM »
To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

They're not very different. 

Quote
Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.

How do you collect vestments and not know that that's a fairly common galloon?  You can buy yards and yards of it at Lalame.  It's probably the easiest thing to turn into a stole.

Exactly! By the way, I have seen all kinds of Deacon stoles in different Assyrian Churches. The yellow galloons are fast disappearing from many parishes.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 01:47:02 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2017, 02:31:25 PM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

This is very interesting.

I have a book on the history of the Assyrian church, which also details the genocide, a reprint of a 1915 original, and it documents the extreme poverty of the Church of the East at that time.  According to it, there was an Anglican missionary society that developed a special friendship with the Church of the East, and in England, funds were raised by the altar guilds at various churches, which were used to donate vestments and paraments.

To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.
I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2017, 02:37:59 PM »
To this day, Assyrian priests usually wear a Latin-style cope as their main vestment (although a few, like Fr. Ephrem of East Meets East, buy vestments from Pulickal Brothers in India, identical to Syriac Orthodox vestments except in those areas where the tradition differs).

They're not very different. 

Quote
Almost all Assyrian deacons seem to wear a standard stole, yellow with red crosses on it; I imagine this is produced specifically for the church along with a few other distinctive vestments such as the caps worn by their bishops.

How do you collect vestments and not know that that's a fairly common galloon?  You can buy yards and yards of it at Lalame.  It's probably the easiest thing to turn into a stole.

I just buy what looks good, is presently lacking and fits the size of the priest I'm donating it to.  Most of the vestments I've bought have been Athonite-style vestments custom-tailored for priests in EO parishes, although I also purchased a low mass set for a RC parish that I liked, and a cope for an Anglican minister, and a mitre for a Coptic priest (his own mitre was slightly scuffed somehow, like it had a dent on one side).

I know what gallopns are, but I've never bothered to deep dive into the nuances or intricacies thereof.   Again, I just buy what looks good and is needed.

So if a priest I know desires a new blue vestment set for the Marian feasts, I will order one for his height, based on my aesthetic preferences, and donate it (I show it to the priest before I commit).

Sometimes, if I see a beautiful vestment at a good price, I will buy it with a view to donating it later, when a suitable recipient emerges.

I intend to start purchasing gospel book covers due to the large number of parishes which lack beautiful gospel books.  These are slightly less subjective in terms of taste, and many small parishes lack them, either the smaller gilded covers or the larger style with icons of the four evangelists.   I actually have the required equipment to print the pages on good quality paper and attach them, as a result of dabbling in book design a few years back (which is a very enjoyable hobby).

I also once sculpted a cross for the priest of St. Mary's Assyrian Church of the East, designed to be used for veneration, or to hold a flower or candle, to decorate his house or office, on the occasion of their reopening.  I used FIMO as my sculpting material to get the shape of the distinctive Assyrian cross, and then spray painted it with gold-leaf paint, and presented it to him with a hibiscus flower.  It was a gift much appreciated.   I gave it to him at the same liturgy where Mar Dinkha IV was present, where, to my extreme chagrin, I passed out and fell down a flight of stairs, which was rather awkward; fortunately I gave Fr. George the decorative cross well before passing out.

I love the Assyrian church and its people.  On my next visit, there was an elderly Assyrian lady who hugged me for some length of time.  They, like the Syriac, Armenian and Coptic people, are very loving.
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Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2017, 04:25:13 PM »

Fascinating! Do you have a photograph?


[/quote] I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
[/quote]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:25:51 PM by Brigidsboy »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2017, 04:38:01 PM »

Fascinating! Do you have a photograph?


I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
[/quote]
[/quote] no but I can give you the name of place and priest. This was anyways way before camera phones.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:39:54 PM by augustin717 »
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2017, 07:46:30 PM »
According to everything I have read the church was reduced to extreme poverty in the decades leading up to the Genocide of 1915. It is only since the mid XX Century that they have been financially prosperous enough to build what we would consider proper church buildings. What would have been used at the time of the compilation of the service books might have been similar to the Latin cerecloth, a fabric heavily coated with wax to resist moisture.

I like you.  I like you a lot...

You are very kind!
"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem

Offline Brigidsboy

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2017, 08:28:42 PM »

Fascinating! Do you have a photograph?


I hate to compete with you in liturgical geekery but at least in Chicago there is a parish where the priest would don on occasion at least -only been there sporadically when parents used to live close by-Byzantine vestments.
[/quote] no but I can give you the name of place and priest. This was anyways way before camera phones.
[/quote]

Please do. You can send me a private message.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2017, 05:44:52 PM »


The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Tablitho and the Antimension
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2017, 07:24:10 PM »




Beautiful.  I love the bishop's vestments.

The most common color for the trim (what is the word for it?  g-something-ion) on our vestments seems to be red, so I always love seeing other color combinations.  My favorite is white with blue trim.

The most beautiful vestment Ive seen in our church in person is a blue Phaynonwith red trim worn by Fr. Shara at St. Ephrems, and a violet Phayno with red trim worn by a concelebrating priest (this was the Sunday before the Convention in 2013 IIRC).  My favorite vestment Ive seen was a turqoise phayno and hamnikho with orange trim worn by HH Ignatius Zakka Iwas, memoru eternal.

Is he comsecrating one altar and multiple tablithoyo for the parish?  Can a parish have more than one tablitho?
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.