Author Topic: Baptism by Pouring...  (Read 1637 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Baptism by Pouring...
« on: July 22, 2017, 02:38:52 PM »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 02:45:49 PM »
Okay now it's clear the church is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes! The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 02:51:32 PM »
What life without a little modernism to make things interesting?

One cup of joe and one cup of modernism.
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 02:56:04 PM »
...on Holy Mount Athos!

But God forbid a Copt is found to have Orthodox Christology from the get go  :P
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 03:34:26 PM »
...on Holy Mount Athos!
Well, Jesus did say that the pour we will always have with us.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 07:30:58 PM »
...on Holy Mount Athos!

I thought this form was a custom in the Serbian Orthodox Church?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 04:47:54 AM »
What life without a little modernism to make things interesting?

One cup of joe and one cup of modernism.
Quote from: Didache VII
And concerning baptism, baptize this way... in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 04:48:21 AM by Sharbel »
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2017, 01:11:43 PM »

Quote from: Didache VII
And concerning baptism, baptize this way... in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head...


This is quite funny given the picture in the original post..is a man kneeling next to a body of water....
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2017, 01:27:34 PM »
...on Holy Mount Athos!

Are the ones doing the baptizing Athonites? (srs question)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2017, 02:17:04 PM »

Quote from: Didache VII
And concerning baptism, baptize this way... in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head...


This is quite funny given the picture in the original post..is a man kneeling next to a body of water....

"But if you have neither, or if those involved prefer not to get so wet ..."
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2017, 02:18:58 PM »
...on Holy Mount Athos!

Are the ones doing the baptizing Athonites? (srs question)

How would you define "Athonite"?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2017, 02:22:38 PM »
...on Holy Mount Athos!

Are the ones doing the baptizing Athonites? (srs question)

How would you define "Athonite"?

Something like: residents of Athos. I'm just asking because in the other pics there were people who were clearly visitors (like 10-14 y.o. boys in normal clothes), which made me wonder if perhaps the baptism was being done by visitors rather than residents.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 02:29:41 PM »
...on Holy Mount Athos!

Are the ones doing the baptizing Athonites? (srs question)

How would you define "Athonite"?

Something like: residents of Athos. I'm just asking because in the other pics there were people who were clearly visitors (like 10-14 y.o. boys in normal clothes), which made me wonder if perhaps the baptism was being done by visitors rather than residents.

The bishop and the baptizand are visiting, so by your definition they are probably not Athonite.  But I'm not sure that matters.  The baptism took place at a monastery on Mt Athos, and generally you are bound to serve according to the rules of the place you are visiting, not according to whatever you do at home.  And if anyone is likely to enforce such things strictly, it's Athonites on their own turf. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 02:43:25 PM »
The bishop and the baptizand are visiting, so by your definition they are probably not Athonite.  But I'm not sure that matters.  The baptism took place at a monastery on Mt Athos, and generally you are bound to serve according to the rules of the place you are visiting, not according to whatever you do at home.  And if anyone is likely to enforce such things strictly, it's Athonites on their own turf. 

It seems the three most likely scenarios are:

1) Athonite monastics gave their ok
2) Athonite monastics said no, but it happened anyway
3) Athonite monastics didn't know (or at least didn't know until it was too late to stop)

Just curious which way it was. Seems strange that they'd not go full bore with practice when in theology and theory they treat baptism so rigorously and guardedly.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2017, 11:25:35 PM »

Quote from: Didache VII
And concerning baptism, baptize this way... in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head...

This is quite funny given the picture in the original post..is a man kneeling next to a body of water....
It looks like the Aegean to me.  Can sea water be used for baptism in the Orthodox Churches?
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2017, 11:34:10 PM »
Baptism by pouring should only be done if it's an emergency. Then afterwords when the person recovers, they should be baptized the correct way.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 11:35:30 PM by Jackson02 »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 12:03:55 AM »

Quote from: Didache VII
And concerning baptism, baptize this way... in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head...

This is quite funny given the picture in the original post..is a man kneeling next to a body of water....
It looks like the Aegean to me.  Can sea water be used for baptism in the Orthodox Churches?

Only in those parishes with an ancestral connection to Poseidon.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2017, 12:23:55 AM »
Baptism by pouring is sometimes a necessity. I don't see how we can see the context of this baptism with the information provided. Our son Taz was baptized by pouring because his health necessitated such.

Offline juliogb

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2017, 07:39:24 AM »
Wasn't another kind of ritual? The guy's robes look very wet, like he just immersed in the water, maybe it is something else than a baptism.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2017, 09:09:20 AM »

Does anyone actually know the story behind the photo?

Unless you were there, this is all speculation....and only hurts the Church.

If you look at the man and his clothes, they are all wet.  Plastered to his body....to me it appears he was at some point deep in the water.

Perhaps this pouring of water, is simply an added step of "sprinkling" with Holy Water.

Who knows?

Thank the Lord this man wished to be baptized!!!
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 09:29:24 AM »
Baptism by pouring should only be done if it's an emergency. Then afterwords when the person recovers, they should be baptized the correct way.

If they do the second, you are saying the emergency baptism wasn't a real baptism.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2017, 10:39:45 AM »
The robe looks wet where the water got poured.  Baptism by pouring occurs and has always occurred.  It was always a flimsy stick to beat the Latins with.
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2017, 10:55:48 AM »

Does anyone actually know the story behind the photo?

Unless you were there, this is all speculation....and only hurts the Church.

If you look at the man and his clothes, they are all wet.  Plastered to his body....to me it appears he was at some point deep in the water.

Perhaps this pouring of water, is simply an added step of "sprinkling" with Holy Water.

Who knows?

Thank the Lord this man wished to be baptized!!!

+1

I'd also like to know the context before making any comments.
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 10:57:06 AM »
The robe looks wet where the water got poured.  Baptism by pouring occurs and has always occurred.  It was always a flimsy stick to beat the Latins with.

I disagree on both counts, and I hope the purpose of the thread wasn't to troll Orthodox critics of the Latin Church in defense of the same.  The robe looks drenched to me.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2017, 11:01:13 AM »
The robe looks wet where the water got poured.  Baptism by pouring occurs and has always occurred.  It was always a flimsy stick to beat the Latins with.

I don't know.  To me it looks "wetter" than that.  Even his heel is wet....but, I don't know.

I was baptized by the "pouring" of water. 
I was baptized at 3 days, weighing in at a heavy almost 5 lbs...in the middle of winter, in the living room of our home, out of fear of taking the premature infant out in the cold...as it was the middle of a massive Spring snow storm.

I have little doubt, .....actually, I have NO doubt that I am baptized...even if the water merely trickled down my head and neck.

Having said all that...I do agree that full immersion is the "best" way....but, I also believe that God can send His Grace upon those who are merely poured on.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 11:02:23 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2017, 11:06:11 AM »
...furthermore....if we look at this associated photo....



What would be the reason of pouring the "oil" into the larger body of water, if the man was not going to get submerged in it?

I am guessing the man did go in, by himself, and the bishop, not wishing to drench his vestments...stood on the shore...and then finished, by saying the words, with pouring of water.
Just my guess.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 11:07:11 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2017, 11:08:42 AM »
What would be the reason of pouring the "oil" into the larger body of water, if the man was not going to get submerged in it?

I am guessing the man did go in, by himself, and the bishop, not wishing to drench his vestments...stood on the shore...and then finished, by saying the words, with pouring of water.
Just my guess.

The photo right after the one in the OP shows him walking into the sea by himself.
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2017, 11:19:38 AM »
Baptism by pouring should only be done if it's an emergency. Then afterwords when the person recovers, they should be baptized the correct way.

If they do the second, you are saying the emergency baptism wasn't a real baptism.
Like I said, pouring isn't the correct way. Though if a person is dieing it's the fastest method.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2017, 11:25:01 AM »
What life without a little modernism to make things interesting?

One cup of joe and one cup of modernism.
Quote from: Didache VII
And concerning baptism, baptize this way... in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head...

But they have living water...
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2017, 11:35:16 AM »
Based on Liza and Arachne's posts, the mystery has been solved (and the Mystery properly administered! ;)) to my satisfaction.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2017, 12:01:49 PM »
Baptism by pouring should only be done if it's an emergency. Then afterwords when the person recovers, they should be baptized the correct way.

If they do the second, you are saying the emergency baptism wasn't a real baptism.
Like I said, pouring isn't the correct way. Though if a person is dieing it's the fastest method.

And like the Creed says, I believe in one baptism -- even if the mode isn't optimal
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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2017, 12:10:08 PM »
Based on Liza and Arachne's posts, the mystery has been solved (and the Mystery properly administered! ;)) to my satisfaction.

What do you think happened?
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2017, 12:12:58 PM »
Baptism by pouring should only be done if it's an emergency. Then afterwords when the person recovers, they should be baptized the correct way.

If they do the second, you are saying the emergency baptism wasn't a real baptism.
Like I said, pouring isn't the correct way. Though if a person is dieing it's the fastest method.

And like the Creed says, I believe in one baptism -- even if the mode isn't optimal

What Jackson is describing is a traditional (if rare) procedure in some Orthodox places, for scenarios in which a person is thought to be near death and wants to be baptized. In such cases, if pouring is all that can be managed then that's what they do. If the person afterwards recovers they are then have a 'full' baptism. Had the person died no one would have argued that the pouring baptism didn't count; if the person survived and got a baptism with dunking and all the trimmings then the response isn't that the previous baptism meant nothing. You'd have to ask the Slavs (and perhaps others) who do this kind of thing how they reconcile the practice with your (and the standard) interpretation of the creed and Scripture.

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2017, 12:28:01 PM »
Based on Liza and Arachne's posts, the mystery has been solved (and the Mystery properly administered! ;)) to my satisfaction.

What do you think happened?

What Liza described in post # 26.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2017, 12:42:38 PM »
Based on Liza and Arachne's posts, the mystery has been solved (and the Mystery properly administered! ;)) to my satisfaction.

What do you think happened?

What Liza described in post # 26.

Sorry, but I don't buy it.  Pouring the oil into the water is part of the rite, it's not something that specifically indicates an intention to practice triple immersion baptism.  And if not wanting to get one's vestments wet is a concern, it's not like you are forced to baptise in the sea: I'm sure provision could've been made to baptise in a church.  But if you can baptise by pouring in order to protect a set of vestments from getting wet, you can baptise by pouring, period.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2017, 12:56:49 PM »

The man DOES go in to the water...

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2017, 12:59:54 PM »
...and here the baptism continues....AFTER he reemerges from the sea.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 01:00:46 PM by LizaSymonenko »
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2017, 01:02:57 PM »

The man DOES go in to the water...


Yes, I did see that photo, but I'm not sure how relevant it is.  Baptism is usually "triple immersion", not "triple pouring and a dip in a pool".  The photo of the chrismation is unremarkable.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2017, 01:04:23 PM »
What if this were a baptism to "correct" a receiving by chrismation at some American parish?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2017, 01:05:45 PM »
What if this were a baptism to "correct" a receiving by chrismation at some American parish?

Then the lack of rigor in the execution would be laughable.
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2017, 01:06:06 PM »
What if this were a baptism to "correct" a receiving by chrismation at some American parish?

From the news story, I don't think it is, but that would present another set of problems.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2017, 01:06:26 PM »
...so, what is the real argument here?

Are we concerned that this man was not truly Baptized, because water was merely poured upon his head?

Are we concerned that this is some new modernization of the proper baptismal technique?

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2017, 01:07:20 PM »
What if this were a baptism to "correct" a receiving by chrismation at some American parish?

Then the lack of rigor in the execution would be laughable.

That's my point. ;)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Baptism by Pouring...
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2017, 01:10:55 PM »
...so, what is the real argument here?

Are we concerned that this man was not truly Baptized, because water was merely poured upon his head?

Are we concerned that this is some new modernization of the proper baptismal technique?

I don't really have a concern here except to point out an instance of baptism by pouring in a place you would not expect it.  I have no problem accepting the legitimacy of baptism by pouring. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).