Author Topic: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.  (Read 448 times)

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Offline Anthony1986

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Today, I just got challenged by my Evangelical Protestant friend. She said we can pray to Christ directly. Why do we need to prayer to the Theotokos and Saints?

She said Theotokos and Saints are died, they are in heaven but can they heard us?

She said pray to Christ directly is the short cut. Pray to Theotokos and Saints is kind of undermine what Christ has already accomplish.
She said it makes sense to ask your friend for prayer. But she does not believe that we should pray to Theotokos and Saints.

She said there is no biblical support that we need to pray to Theotokos and Saints.

My response to her is the concept of communion of Saints.

Beside that I really don't know how to response to her questions.

What is the Orthodox response about pray to Theotokos and Saints?
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Luke

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 11:45:37 AM »
The communion of saints is the reason I hear.  If your protestant friend had a prayer request, she would pray to God directly but also ask you to pray for her.  Why not also ask the departed?

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 11:49:06 AM »
The communion of saints is the reason I hear.  If your protestant friend had a prayer request, she would pray to God directly but also ask you to pray for her.  Why not also ask the departed?

 :( She told me that she does not believe that Theotokos and Saints can hear our prayers. :o

I think her response is kind of strange.

Also, she wanted me to provide Biblical proof...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 11:53:38 AM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 12:17:22 PM »
Today, I just got challenged by my Evangelical Protestant friend. She said we can pray to Christ directly. Why do we need to prayer to the Theotokos and Saints?

This is like choosing to have a relationship only with your dad and bypassing the rest of the family.  In some ways, it's more efficient, but why would you willingly choose to impoverish yourself in this way?  My brother can never be my father, but he is still my brother.  That's not nothing. 

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She said Theotokos and Saints are died, they are in heaven but can they heard us?

Being in heaven doesn't stop God from hearing us, so why would it stop them? 

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She said pray to Christ directly is the short cut.

Thinking of the spiritual life in such terms really betrays the mindset of the thinker: Christ is nothing more than a "Get out of Hell Free" card in some cosmic game of Monopoly.

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Pray to Theotokos and Saints is kind of undermine what Christ has already accomplish.

How?

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She said it makes sense to ask your friend for prayer. But she does not believe that we should pray to Theotokos and Saints.

Interesting.  She can ask her friend for prayer, but not the Theotokos.  She admits that Jesus' mother is meaningless to her.  Jesus' mother has no value to her.  What would Jesus think about someone who thought that about his mother? 

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She said there is no biblical support that we need to pray to Theotokos and Saints.

Again, to think in terms of need or requirement is to cut oneself off from grace. 
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 12:48:41 PM »
Prayers to the Saints is older than the Bible. Also, you cannot know Christ fully without knowing His Mother. (c.f., St. Gregory Palamas) That's just nonsense.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 01:04:46 PM »
Working on set of prayers daily
Learn meditation.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 01:06:06 PM »
Do you want to give her an answer or are yourself looking for the answer ?

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2017, 01:11:16 PM »
We pray as members of the Body not as isolated individuals. Even if you are praying by yourself in the evening you are still praying with the Church for the Church and the world. Including the Saints and Theotokos in your prayers is acknowledging and living this reality.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2017, 01:19:46 PM »
If the Saints are cut off from hearing us, that casts doubt on the risen Christ's ability to hear us, since it is his incarnated power by which the saints gain eternal life.

Honestly, in my experience, Protestants can get very uncomfortable if Christianity becomes real rather than remaining as they like it, mere abstraction and argumentation.
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 07:21:49 PM »
Do you want to give her an answer or are yourself looking for the answer ?

Actually, I am looking for answer by myself. I believe pray to Theotokos and Saints, however, I want to have a deeper knowledge on communion of Saints.
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2017, 07:33:55 PM »
Saints are in heaven. They enjoy the eternal life. Through the Holy Spirit they can hear our prayer.

Also, even I pray alone, I am praying with Angles and Saints in heaven.

O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 07:34:38 PM »
Saints are in heaven. They enjoy the eternal life. Through the Holy Spirit they can hear our prayer.

Also, even I pray alone, I am praying with Angles and Saints in heaven.

My understanding of communion of Saints...

O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 07:59:54 PM »
Saints are in heaven. They enjoy the eternal life. Through the Holy Spirit they can hear our prayer.

Also, even I pray alone, I am praying with Angles and Saints in heaven.

My understanding of communion of Saints...

True! And do not forget that they lived a mortal life as followers of Christ and so understand very well what you go thru in your life, and not only understand and remember, but they know perfectly that mortals like you can be saved! And they feel great empathy with your hardships and feel great joy for your blessings. My little girls call them our friends in heaven.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Opus118

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 08:01:10 PM »
We pray as members of the Body not as isolated individuals. Even if you are praying by yourself in the evening you are still praying with the Church for the Church and the world. Including the Saints and Theotokos in your prayers is acknowledging and living this reality.

+1
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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 09:02:24 PM »
- In 2 Macc. 15:11-17 a vision/dream "worthy to be believed" is described in which the deceased Onias prayed for the Jewish people

- In Revelation there are multiple passages about "dead" humans being conscious in heaven and the prayers of those on earth rising before God (Rev. 5:7-8; 6:9-11; 7:9-17)

- Angels are not only messengers and ministers but also act as guardians and intercessors before God on behalf of humans (Rev. 8:3-4; Zech. 1:12; Tob. 12:12-15)

- God is said to be "not the God of the dead, but the God of the living" (Mark 12:26-27; Luke 20:37-38); and St. Paul says that "neither death nor life will be able to separate us from the love of God" (Rom. 8:38-39)

- Heb. 11:1-12:2 speak of Old Testament 'heroes of faith' who are alive in heaven and are now part of a "cloud of witnesses" who are observing us

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2017, 09:05:41 PM »
^ Amen.

The picture in the Revelation is especially puissant, and poignant, of the martyrs, who reside nearest to God -- under his throne -- and cry aloud to him to remember his own and complete his salvific judgment of the world.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline vorgos

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Re: Challenged by my Protestant friend:pray to Theotokos and Saints.
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2017, 01:33:59 AM »
I think one doesn't need to go any further than the transfiguration...

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(American_Standard)/Luke#9:30
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30 And behold, there talked with him two men, who were Moses and Elijah;

Moses is dead, yet he talks to Christ...  ???
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