Author Topic: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?  (Read 4348 times)

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Offline augustin717

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 02:02:35 AM by augustin717 »
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Porter ODoran

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Nyet.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
Matthew 16:18
Peter's Confession of Christ
…17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…
A couple of months ago a lightbulb came up above my head when I noticed the future tense in that sentence.  When does Our Lord give Peter the keys?  In Galilee, to him and to the other Apostles at the same time.  Peter was not the only Apostle to receive the keys nor did he in advance, hardly a justification for modern papal claims.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. Some even Orthodox posters have wanted to position this as a contradiction or supercedence to the passages which recount the Lord giving the keys to the Apostles as he returned to his Father. Plainly St. Peter received a promise of that event here, nothing more.
it's most likely a second century interpolation when Rome was already trying to create its own mythology and pedigree and project it back into that mythical apostolic golden age.
One would think you'd be too busy with your own mythology of misnamed "historical materialism" (which has no material existence in history) and its fabricated dialectic, to have time to make up such baseless nonsense, easily disproved (e.g. why would Rome interpolate its pedigree in the Antiochian Gospel and not the one associated with Old Rome, i.e. St. Mark?)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 12:04:44 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline augustin717

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
Matthew 16:18
Peter's Confession of Christ
…17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…
A couple of months ago a lightbulb came up above my head when I noticed the future tense in that sentence.  When does Our Lord give Peter the keys?  In Galilee, to him and to the other Apostles at the same time.  Peter was not the only Apostle to receive the keys nor did he in advance, hardly a justification for modern papal claims.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. Some even Orthodox posters have wanted to position this as a contradiction or supercedence to the passages which recount the Lord giving the keys to the Apostles as he returned to his Father. Plainly St. Peter received a promise of that event here, nothing more.
it's most likely a second century interpolation when Rome was already trying to create its own mythology and pedigree and project it back into that mythical apostolic golden age.
One would think you'd be too busy with your own mythology of misnamed "historical materialism" (which has no material existence in history) and its fabricated dialectic, to have time to make up such baseless nonsense, easily disproved (e.g. why would Rome interpolate its pedigree in the Antiochian Gospel and not the one associated with Old Rome, i.e. St. Mark?)
one thing is sure -apart from a deus ex machina explanation- no Palestinian Jew could have uttered those words in the first century. So you ha e to the domain them as theological development/reflection etc .
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Porter ODoran

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
Matthew 16:18
Peter's Confession of Christ
…17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…
A couple of months ago a lightbulb came up above my head when I noticed the future tense in that sentence.  When does Our Lord give Peter the keys?  In Galilee, to him and to the other Apostles at the same time.  Peter was not the only Apostle to receive the keys nor did he in advance, hardly a justification for modern papal claims.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. Some even Orthodox posters have wanted to position this as a contradiction or supercedence to the passages which recount the Lord giving the keys to the Apostles as he returned to his Father. Plainly St. Peter received a promise of that event here, nothing more.
it's most likely a second century interpolation when Rome was already trying to create its own mythology and pedigree and project it back into that mythical apostolic golden age.
One would think you'd be too busy with your own mythology of misnamed "historical materialism" (which has no material existence in history) and its fabricated dialectic, to have time to make up such baseless nonsense, easily disproved (e.g. why would Rome interpolate its pedigree in the Antiochian Gospel and not the one associated with Old Rome, i.e. St. Mark?)
one thing is sure -apart from a deus ex machina explanation- no Palestinian Jew could have uttered those words in the first century. So you ha e to the domain them as theological development/reflection etc .

The "words were uttered" by Jesus Christ in an intense conversation with his disciple Simon.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline augustin717

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Yes of course. Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius/Non est veritas hoc verbo verius.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 02:19:08 AM by augustin717 »
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Yes of course. Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius/Non est veritas hoc verbo verius.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline augustin717

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Yes of course. Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius/Non est veritas hoc verbo verius.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

"I believe everything the Son of God has said/ there is no truth truer than this word"
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Romaios

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one thing is sure -apart from a deus ex machina explanation- no Palestinian Jew could have uttered those words in the first century. So you ha e to the domain them as theological development/reflection etc .

Actually there are Jewish parallels. I don't have the Aramaic/Hebrew reference for this midrash at hand, but Roman-Catholic apologists often quote it in reference to the Gospel verse you consider to be forged:

Quote
When God was about to build his world, he could not rear it on the generation of Enos, nor on that of the flood, who brought destruction upon the world; but when he beheld that Abraham would arise in the future, he said' 'Behold, I have found a rock to build on it, and to found the world,' whence, also, Abraham is called a rock, as it is said' 'Look unto the rock whence ye are hewn.' (Isaiah 51:1)

Offline Xavier

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Quote
Similar requirements and praises were offered to Alexandria

Mina, Certainly. Because Alexandria was one of the sees with a connection to St. Peter. Local churches near Alexandria referred their disputes there. But all Churches including that of Alexandria referred major disputes to the Church of Rome and against the judgment of the Church of Rome, there never was appeal to another. This is explicitly laid down in the canons of the Council of Sardica which was presided over by none other than St. Athanasius of Alexandria in the time of Pope St. Julius I. And an identical procedure was followed by St. Cyril of Alexandria in having recourse to the judgment of Pope St. Celestine I. So on what grounds can you justify a scandalous permanent separation from the Roman Church? There are none and that is plainly schism.

 
Quote
and Constantinople.

Do you really want to go there? If you will not admit the teaching of the Roman Pontiffs themselves (such as Pope St. Gregory the Great clearly stating the Church at Constantinople has always been subject to the Apostolic Throne of St. Peter in Rome), hear it from two leading lights and Saintly monks of the royal city of Constantinople itself,St. Maximus and St. Theodore.

"How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome." (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

"Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Just the idea of a single human absolute monarch of the whole world and all living souls is incredible hubris akin to the Evil One's. Technical argument around the subject is almost irrelevant.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline minasoliman

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The Primacy feelings between Rome and Alexandria were mutual.  Dionysius of Rome had to consult with Dionysius of Alexandria for an issue he dealt with.  Does that make Alexandria a primate over Rome in that century only to change the century after?

It's a form of ecclesiastical respect.  Alexandria wanted to do things with Rome for stronger unity.  But there were times when even BOTH Rome and Alexandria weren't consulted, such as the council of Constantinople, and even when both rejected the canons of that council, it didn't matter eventually.

In Ephesus 449, Rome was not consulted because the Church of Alexandria saw the Tome deviate from the the Orthodox faith.  If Rome was dogmatically held Primacy, our church would not have changed gears in the fifth century.  The same goes for Syria and Armenia.  If they felt the authority of Peter pertained only to the see of Rome, they wouldn't be against Chalcedon.  Our existence as OOs is proof that the honors give to Rome were a matter of spiritual respect and mutual honor (at times hyperbolic honor) of the Orthodoxy we all held at the time, not a set in stone dogmatic necessity.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.

What exactly is your problem here? 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.

What exactly is your problem here?

What exactly makes it my problem? I can respect Malpana -- and I do -- without simply swallowing his ill-founded interruption and rebuke. I pushed back with an explanation of my reply to Augustin. He called me names like "nice" and "happy." I helpfully reminded him that it's his mother's duty to praise his erudition unconditionally. Now you are making inquiries into the precision level of my problem. Maybe I should get back to work.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Porter ODoran, for any offense I have caused, I apologize. The "names" I've called you are only meant to be a playful jab at the fact that you tend to react a *tad* strongly over very, very minor things. I am not looking for affirmation from people I do not know, nor do I care to be "my boy" Aquinas's apologist on an Orthodox forum. My intention with my "interruption" (in a thread already far afield of the OP) was merely to point out that, whatever Augustin's point may be, you are distorting what the quotation from Aquinas means. No offense intended.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Porter ODoran

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I personally think it's a bad idea that only those credentialed enough should make responses to atheistic arguments. And yes that's how I read your chiding intervention. But I'll leave it to you now to stand up for the Holy Evangelist St. Matthew. You intend to, don't you? Your superior knowledge of Latin and superior wit shall outshine my earnest hayseed attempts, and I'll be happy to see it. Godspeed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.

What exactly is your problem here?

What exactly makes it my problem? I can respect Malpana -- and I do -- without simply swallowing his ill-founded interruption and rebuke. I pushed back with an explanation of my reply to Augustin. He called me names like "nice" and "happy." I helpfully reminded him that it's his mother's duty to praise his erudition unconditionally. Now you are making inquiries into the precision level of my problem. Maybe I should get back to work.

Yeah, I think so.
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Slave driver.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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I personally think it's a bad idea that only those credentialed enough should make responses to atheistic arguments. And yes that's how I read your chiding intervention. But I'll leave it to you now to stand up for the Holy Evangelist St. Matthew. You intend to, don't you? Your superior knowledge of Latin and superior wit shall outshine my earnest hayseed attempts, and I'll be happy to see it. Godspeed.

It is interesting that you get all this from what I said. I see that further interaction is pointless.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Is that what you see? So you go from correcting to shunning in a few posts, offering nothing else? How rare must be the air you breathe.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Its simple and uncomplicated. Read how the Fathers of even the first five Christian centuries refuted those in schism and proved the absolute need to return to Catholic unity with the Chair of Peter in Rome. Take for example the Donatist schism though the same principle applied to both prior and later schisms.

"How does St. Optatus show that the Catholic Church did not go out from the Donatists, but that the Donatists went out from the Catholic Church? He does so by way of the Chair of St. Peter. The bishop that remains in communion with the Chair of St. Peter in Rome is the bishop who has remained with the Catholic Church. In this particular case, the bishop of Carthage who had remained in communion with the bishop of Rome, was Caecilian and his episcopal successors in Carthage. The bishop who has broken communion with the Chair of St. Peter is the bishop who is in schism from the Catholic Church. Therefore the bishop in Carthage who had broken fellowship with the Chair of St. Peter in Rome, was the bishop in schism from the Catholic Church. In this way St. Optatus shows that because Majorinus and his episcopal successors (and all the laypeople who followed them) had broken fellowship with the Chair of St. Peter, therefore they were the ones who had gone out from the Catholic Church, and were presently in schism from the Church."

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2011/06/st-optatus-on-schism-and-the-bishop-of-rome/

Similar requirements and praises were offered to Alexandria and Constantinople.  In other words, you can't be a bishop in the Catholic Church unless you're in communion with Alexandria or Constantinople.  The churches of the Far East established their catholicity through Antioch as well.  So it doesn't make sense that Rome ALONE has that type of power.  There's a much greater context of history than the stubborn lens you choose to look through.

Can you show us some examples of how not being in communion with Antioch or Alexandria or Constantinople is equivalent to schism?
I'm done.

Offline minasoliman

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I'll give you one example, and when I find others I'll share more of them:

Those who do not hold to the apostolic faith, and therefore to the pure communion of our apostolic throne, have no share in strict canonical form.  (St. Severus of Antioch, Letters, p. 45/50, quoted from Robin Darling's "The Patriarchate of Severus of Antioch")

This was directed against Constantinople and Rome who did not share in the faith of St. Severus, who he believed to be more consonant with St. Cyril of Alexandria.  This should give us an idea that he first buttresses the claim of his apostolic throne of Antioch on correct faith before the honorific of being associated with St. Peter (he does this also in another letter, putting emphasis on Antioch as the Apostolic throne of St. Peter).
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 01:47:00 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Here is another example. (from Zachariah of Mytilene's chronicles, book 9) This time, St. Severus of Antioch offers primacy of honor to Alexandria on account of the fact that it is the "Evangelical See":

And it would indeed have been right that the holy archbishop Anthimus should first apply to your evangelical throne and offer to you the firstfruits of concord; but the necessity of this time and the distance of the country and the hurry of events changed the due order of things; and because this was done in secret; for as a wise doctor of divine doctrines you know what is written in the record by John the Theologian rather than Evangelist, that the disciples were assembled with the doors shut for fear of the Jews, and that the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ, while the doors were shut, appeared inside by a miracle, and stood in the midst and said, ' Peace be with you.'

I have therefore attached to this letter a copy of my own letter of concord and that of the God-loving chief priest, the man above mentioned, which were composed under fear of the Jews, and have sent them to your Holiness.
(Letter of St. Severus of Antioch to St. Theodosius of Alexandria regarding St. Anthimus of Constantinople)

To which St. Theodosius replies with humility:

With outstretched hand, therefore, we have accepted the event, and on our own part also hasten to conclude similar covenants; and we have admitted the pious man to the closest communion with us, and have indited a return letter to him, in which we have clearly set forth the right faith of the fathers and exposed the evil character of the faith which pollutes feeble understandings. And of the document on account of which we have entered into communion with him, and will give it to any who shall be hereafter, of this we have sent a copy to your fatherhood, because we did not wish that any of your rights should cause you jealousy, and especially those which have to do with our holy Church. And then of necessity I say that the fact that you observe towards the evangelical see the prime honour which is due to it, and express the same in writing, as the things written to me declared you to do, was in truth worthy of your holy soul, which is careful to do everything with judgment and in accordance with the will of God. But I plainly declare my feeling that my chief honour, and one which gives me great joy, is that honour which is justly paid to you by everyone. With confidence, therefore, pious father ours, I unhesitatingly assent to whatever rightly seems good to you with regard to the holy Church, considering that, as befits your fatherhood, you will not cease from action and advice which will be of benefit to the Church.

So this is proof that during the centuries where Rome was no long considered "Orthodox" by anti-Chalcedonians, that same primal honor given to Rome has now been given to Alexandria and Antioch, and that they believed they were the standard of the Catholicity of the Church.  It comes to no surprise that the Chalcedonian East also tended to feel the same way centuries later.

In other words, we believe Peter has spoken through Severus and Theodosius, and not Leo.  If there was a council with these two presiding, I am pretty sure the same hyperbolic praises of association with St. Peter offered to patriarchs of Rome before the schism of Chalcedon would have been offered to the patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria afterwards.  Therefore, you need to see context and a new "Eastern" lens of how these hyperbolic praises to Rome were understood by the East.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 02:41:48 PM by minasoliman »
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2017, 01:59:41 PM »
I was searching around for an old post that I know was made by GiC...I finally found it, but it won't be as satisfying since some of the arguments made were already made here, but even more unsatisfactory is he also did not reference his sources for some of the quotes.  I'll post it here for relevance:

Also to present the opinions of Zonaras, which are held in equal esteem to those of Balsamon, 'THe hundred and fifty Fathers of the Council of Constantinople have awarded to the Bishop of New Rome preogatives equal to those of the Bishop of Old Rome.'

Likewise, the Nomocanons of Photius states, 'The canonical disputes arising throughout Illyricum must not be cut off from the judgement of th eArchbishop of Constantinople and his synod, which has the perogative of Old Rome.'

And also the fathers of the Sixth Oecumenical Synod proclaimed, 'The Bishop of Constantionple enjoys perogatives equal to those of the Bishop of Old Rome.'

Quote
No, I should really like to see them.

Fine, have it your way, I shall let this argument degrade into pointless proof texting...here's to the end of what minimal valid academic work has been thus far presented ::)

'You, the great city, the first after the first [Rome], immediately after, or maybe it is not even necessary to make this restriction.' -- St. Gregory of Nazianzus, 380

'Is it the city of the Apostles which does these things, the city which received so great an expounder of the faith' -- St. John Chrysostom, in reference to the Imperial City of New Rome

Theodoret refering to the Patriarch of Constantinople says, 'He was entrusted with the presidency of the Catholic Curch of the Orthodox who are in Constantinople, and no less of the whole oecumene.'

'If any Clergyman has a dispute with another, let him not leave his own Bishop and resort to secular courts, but let him first submit his case to his own Bishop, or let it be tried by referees chosen by both parties and approved by the Bishop. Let anyone who acts contrary hereto be liable to Canonical penalties. If, on the other hand, a Clergyman has a dispute with his own Bishop, or with some other Bishop, let it be tried by the Synod of the province. But if any Bishop or Clergyman has a dispute with the Metropolitan of the same province, let him apply either to the Exarch of the diocese or to the throne of the imperial capital Constantinople, and let it be tried before him.' -- 9th Canon of Chalcedon (establishing Constantinople as the ultimate see of appeal)

'As touching rural parishes, or country parishes, in any province, they shall remain in the undisputed possession of the bishops now holding them, and especially if they have held them in their possession and have managed them without coercion for thirty years or more. But if during a period of thirty years there has arisen or should arise some dispute concerning them, those claiming to have been unjustly treated shall be permitted to complain to the Synod of the province. But if anyone has been unjustly treated by his own Metropolitan, let him complain to the Exarch of the diocese, or let him have his case tried before the throne of Constantinople, according as he may choose. If, on the other hand, any city has been rebuilt by imperial authority, or has been built anew again, pursuant to civil and public formalities, let the order of the ecclesiastical parishes be followed.' -- 17th Canon of Chalcedon (reinforcing Constantinople's posistion as the ultimate see of appeal)

'The throne of Constantinople, honoured by the imperial office, was designated first by conciliar decisions; the divine laws which succeeded these decisions decree that disputes occuring in the jurisdictional areas of other thrones should be referred to the judgement and verdict of that throne.' Third titulus of the Epanagoge of the Law

'Go to Byzantium and you will see the new Jerusalem, Constantinople.' -- Life of St. Daniel the Stylite, 10

'New Jerusalem was built at the very Testimony to the Saviour, facing the famous Jerusalem of old, which after the bloody murder of the Lord had been overthrown in utter devastation, and paid the penalty of its wicked inhabitants. Opposite this then the Emperor erected the victory of the Saviour over death with rich and abundant munificence, this being perhaps that fresh new Jerusalem proclaimed in prophetic oracles, about which long speeches recite innumerable praises as they utter words of divine inspiration.' -- Eusebius

I wish GiC still posted so that he could give us the references, but until then, if anyone else know where these quotes are from, that would be helpful.

God bless.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 02:01:12 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline andi.zhgaba3

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2017, 05:17:25 PM »
Although I honor Peter, I am not only Petrine; I also honor Paul but I am not only Pauline. I do not accept the distinction made by men, in those matters which have been made by God. (P.G. xxxvi, 301. Excerpted from Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism by Archbishop Methodius Fouyas pg. 79)
[A]lthough nature had not given us two Suns, nevertheless we have two Romes, which radiate like lamps to all the universe. The New Rome shines in the East, and the Old Rome shines in the West. But both are equal. (P.G. xxxvii, 1068. Fouyas, ibid. pg. 79)

These were the only things I could find about St. Gregory the Theologian for now...
IGNORE MY POSTS

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2017, 09:28:32 PM »
+1. Good find!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline youssef

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2017, 12:14:15 AM »
+1. Good find!

You could say easily that Pope Leo was heretics and the one who say Peter spoke throught Leo are heretics  and follow the God of this world. I think a genuine oriental orthodox will say that.

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2017, 02:14:22 AM »
+1. Good find!

You could say easily that Pope Leo was heretics and the one who say Peter spoke throught Leo are heretics  and follow the God of this world. I think a genuine oriental orthodox will say that.

In any event, he was certainly not "Great". 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2017, 02:46:18 AM »
+1. Good find!

You could say easily that Pope Leo was heretics and the one who say Peter spoke throught Leo are heretics  and follow the God of this world. I think a genuine oriental orthodox will say that.

In any event, he was certainly not "Great".

I didn't understand, maybe you are trying to say something funny
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:47:11 AM by youssef »

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2017, 02:48:25 AM »
In general i see that oriental orthodox here are influenced by eastern orthodox.

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2017, 08:54:00 AM »
In general i see that oriental orthodox here are influenced by eastern orthodox.

Pope Leo the Great created the "Tome of Leo," which goes into detail about the roles of the human nature and the Divine Nature in the one hypostasis of Christ - the Orientals see this document as Nestorian, which the Easterns deny completely. The Orientals view Leo the Great as, at the very least, writing heterodox documents, but the Eastern Orthodox do not and see him as a great and holy saint.
I'm done.

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2017, 09:36:01 AM »
In general i see that oriental orthodox here are influenced by eastern orthodox.

Pope Leo the Great created the "Tome of Leo," which goes into detail about the roles of the human nature and the Divine Nature in the one hypostasis of Christ - the Orientals see this document as Nestorian, which the Easterns deny completely. The Orientals view Leo the Great as, at the very least, writing heterodox documents, but the Eastern Orthodox do not and see him as a great and holy saint.

I know that.  What i want to say that oriental orthodox will say that we are only the true church and all other are heretics but in this forum the oriental orthodox will not say that.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2017, 10:16:25 AM »
+1. Good find!

You could say easily that Pope Leo was heretics and the one who say Peter spoke throught Leo are heretics  and follow the God of this world. I think a genuine oriental orthodox will say that.

In any event, he was certainly not "Great".

He's saying at best we view him as "Pope Leo", with the title "the Great"

In the same way St. Dioscorus is not viewed positively either by your respective traditions.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 10:17:18 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2017, 10:21:21 AM »
In general i see that oriental orthodox here are influenced by eastern orthodox.

Pope Leo the Great created the "Tome of Leo," which goes into detail about the roles of the human nature and the Divine Nature in the one hypostasis of Christ - the Orientals see this document as Nestorian, which the Easterns deny completely. The Orientals view Leo the Great as, at the very least, writing heterodox documents, but the Eastern Orthodox do not and see him as a great and holy saint.

I know that.  What i want to say that oriental orthodox will say that we are only the true church and all other are heretics but in this forum the oriental orthodox will not say that.

EOs and OOs have been in dialogue for more than a half a century now.  This lead to some people on both sides believing they see the one holy catholic and apostolic church in one another.  I tend to be one of those people.

There are others on both sides who disagree and want to keep the status quo as is with the other side solely taking blame.

In effect, if you want to see a lot of mudslinging on this forum, you will want to read the private forum, where people might be more open in throwing the term "heretics" at particular people, both in history and today.

But we generally stay away from "fighting words" in the public forum, like here.  We aim to show disagreement with respect.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2017, 10:25:03 AM »
I know that.  What i want to say that oriental orthodox will say that we are only the true church and all other are heretics but in this forum the oriental orthodox will not say that.

Are not supposed to, but then what good would that bring anyway?  I hope the point of discussion is healing and not further division.

And, what Mina said.   8)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2017, 11:14:41 AM »
I was jus want to say about the influence i see.
A copt will say the teeth and hair of saint Dioscorus will codemn me if i say we share the same faith with them.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2017, 11:25:34 AM »
My dear Maronite friend, the bleeding feet of St. John Chrysostom did not prevent veneration of St. Theophilus.  The persecution of some Nicene men did not prevent the veneration of St. Constantine.  I'm pretty sure we already share the same faith, the same faith the beard and teeth of St. Dioscorus was shed for.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 11:26:34 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.