Author Topic: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic  (Read 1218 times)

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Offline sedevacantist

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Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« on: July 19, 2017, 04:51:33 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the  Orthodox allow for divorce? I was told by a greek orthodox priest 1 divorce allowed for fornication .  If this is the case this should be a clear indication that the Orthodox don't have the true faith as there should be no divorce allowed as Christ proclaimed.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 04:58:02 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the  Orthodox allow for divorce? I was told by a greek orthodox priest 1 divorce allowed for fornication .  If this is the case this should be a clear indication that the Orthodox don't have the true faith as there should be no divorce allowed as Christ proclaimed.
Except Christ proclaimed an exception himself:
"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2017, 05:32:08 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the  Orthodox allow for divorce? I was told by a greek orthodox priest 1 divorce allowed for fornication .  If this is the case this should be a clear indication that the Orthodox don't have the true faith as there should be no divorce allowed as Christ proclaimed.

What's different about this thread from the hundred others, that you'll be able to read our replies and follow along this time?

The way the Roman Catholic church handles dissolving marriages is an innovation and a sham. It has grown to a monstrosity.

The way the Eastern Orthodox do is admittedly very generous, but in a line with economia going back to the Lord himself. Viz.:

First, our Lord to parry a sophistical attack from the Pharisees pointed out that man and woman were created for one another in marriage, and that the Jewish practice of at-will divorce was an innovation akin to whoredom. At the same time, he pointedly excepted sexual immorality, as a legitimate cause of dissolution. Further, when questioned by his followers privately, he said, This is not for all, but for those who can bear it (the phrase is an idiom that implies "whom the divine will has given to bear it").

Then, the Apostle, yes that would be St. Paul, established that a marriage can be dissolved with mortal death, the widow being free to "marry whomever she wishes, in the Lord." (For the sake of eternal orderliness, the Eastern Orthodox church limits the number of such marriages.) He further instituted that an unbeliever wishing to leave a marriage with a disciple is legitimate ground for dissolution -- "the brother or sister is no longer bound in such a case."

In our tradition, next the Church provided some other instances of economia, since after all the marriage of mortals is an icon of the Trinity's bond, and no man and woman ourselves are the Trinity. I am putting this together off the top of my head, but it will have to do -- if you wanted to know more, you'd have read the existing threads I'm sure.

In my opinion, the Roman Catholic problem here has its roots in a much larger problem, the Catholic inability to grasp the critical role economia plays in the health and salvation of mankind. Therefore, as created reality and legal construct tangle, avoidances like "annulment" play out their truly ridiculous role on the world stage.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 05:34:19 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2017, 11:40:43 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the  Orthodox allow for divorce? I was told by a greek orthodox priest 1 divorce allowed for fornication .  If this is the case this should be a clear indication that the Orthodox don't have the true faith as there should be no divorce allowed as Christ proclaimed.
Does this Traditional Catholic church also have a Pope or is this one of those Traditional Catholic No-Pope churches?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2017, 11:43:17 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the  Orthodox allow for divorce? I was told by a greek orthodox priest 1 divorce allowed for fornication .  If this is the case this should be a clear indication that the Orthodox don't have the true faith as there should be no divorce allowed as Christ proclaimed.
Does this Traditional Catholic church also have a Pope or is this one of those Traditional Catholic No-Pope churches?

Founded on the not-Rock Not-Peter, the not-Church not-Universal withstands, or not, the Gates of Hades or at least of Pseudo-Pluto.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 12:02:06 AM »
First, our Lord to parry a sophistical attack from the Pharisees pointed out that man and woman were created for one another in marriage, and that the Jewish practice of at-will divorce was an innovation akin to whoredom. At the same time, he pointedly excepted sexual immorality, as a legitimate cause of dissolution. Further, when questioned by his followers privately, he said, This is not for all, but for those who can bear it (the phrase is an idiom that implies "whom the divine will has given to bear it").

What is this
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 12:20:31 AM »
First, our Lord to parry a sophistical attack from the Pharisees pointed out that man and woman were created for one another in marriage, and that the Jewish practice of at-will divorce was an innovation akin to whoredom. At the same time, he pointedly excepted sexual immorality, as a legitimate cause of dissolution. Further, when questioned by his followers privately, he said, This is not for all, but for those who can bear it (the phrase is an idiom that implies "whom the divine will has given to bear it").

What is this?

"λέγουσιν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, Εἰ οὕτως ἐστὶν ἡ αἰτία τοῦ ἀνθρώπου μετὰ τῆς γυναικός, οὐ συμφέρει γαμῆσαι. ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Οὐ πάντες χωροῦσιν τὸν λόγον τοῦτον ἀλλ᾽ οἷς δέδοται." -- "His disciples say unto him, 'If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.' -- But he said unto them, 'All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.' " My paraphrase omitted "logos," so I hope this clarifies. "This" would be the Lord's previous answer, to the Pharisees, about Moses, the hardness of hearts, and the akinness of such divorces to adultery.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 03:49:42 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the  Orthodox allow for divorce? I was told by a greek orthodox priest 1 divorce allowed for fornication .  If this is the case this should be a clear indication that the Orthodox don't have the true faith as there should be no divorce allowed as Christ proclaimed.

What's different about this thread from the hundred others, that you'll be able to read our replies and follow along this time?

The way the Roman Catholic church handles dissolving marriages is an innovation and a sham. It has grown to a monstrosity.

The way the Eastern Orthodox do is admittedly very generous, but in a line with economia going back to the Lord himself. Viz.:

First, our Lord to parry a sophistical attack from the Pharisees pointed out that man and woman were created for one another in marriage, and that the Jewish practice of at-will divorce was an innovation akin to whoredom. At the same time, he pointedly excepted sexual immorality, as a legitimate cause of dissolution. Further, when questioned by his followers privately, he said, This is not for all, but for those who can bear it (the phrase is an idiom that implies "whom the divine will has given to bear it").

Then, the Apostle, yes that would be St. Paul, established that a marriage can be dissolved with mortal death, the widow being free to "marry whomever she wishes, in the Lord." (For the sake of eternal orderliness, the Eastern Orthodox church limits the number of such marriages.) He further instituted that an unbeliever wishing to leave a marriage with a disciple is legitimate ground for dissolution -- "the brother or sister is no longer bound in such a case."

In our tradition, next the Church provided some other instances of economia, since after all the marriage of mortals is an icon of the Trinity's bond, and no man and woman ourselves are the Trinity. I am putting this together off the top of my head, but it will have to do -- if you wanted to know more, you'd have read the existing threads I'm sure.

In my opinion, the Roman Catholic problem here has its roots in a much larger problem, the Catholic inability to grasp the critical role economia plays in the health and salvation of mankind. Therefore, as created reality and legal construct tangle, avoidances like "annulment" play out their truly ridiculous role on the world stage.
There is a distinction to be made, separation  due to sexual immorality (this the Churches agree) ..and re marriage  (disagreement) ..no where in the bible does the bible state they can remarry unless there is a death.   

The annulment fiasco is from the Vatican 2 counterfeit Church,not the Catholic Church.

Matt 5:32
But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery

Why committeth adultery unless the one put away is still the wife of the one who has put her away?

 Even when there is a just reason, as in the case of fornication,for dismissing one’s wife, the marriage is not thereby dissolved. Our Lord’s meaning would then be expressed by the following paraphrase of the verse: “Whosoever shall put away his wife (though a man may be permitted to put away his wife on account of fornication, without, however, remarrying), and shall marry another,committeth adultery,and in any case he that shall marry her that Is put away committeth adultery, because she is still the wife of another.”


31 And it hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce.
But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery

The meaning of the 1st clause in the verse is that the husband that puts away his wife is responsible for what may happen afterward. She has deserved dismissal, and the blame ins not her husband’s if she incur the danger of further sinning. But Our Lord adds, without any exception or distinction, “he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery,” because she is still the wife of another. The contrast then,is clear: Moses permitted a certificate of divorce dissolving marriage, Christ permits no dissolving of marriage and regards as adulterous any marriage contracted by a wife separated from her husband.

The true Church has spoken.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 04:19:10 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the  Orthodox allow for divorce? I was told by a greek orthodox priest 1 divorce allowed for fornication .  If this is the case this should be a clear indication that the Orthodox don't have the true faith as there should be no divorce allowed as Christ proclaimed.

What's different about this thread from the hundred others, that you'll be able to read our replies and follow along this time?

The way the Roman Catholic church handles dissolving marriages is an innovation and a sham. It has grown to a monstrosity.

The way the Eastern Orthodox do is admittedly very generous, but in a line with economia going back to the Lord himself. Viz.:

First, our Lord to parry a sophistical attack from the Pharisees pointed out that man and woman were created for one another in marriage, and that the Jewish practice of at-will divorce was an innovation akin to whoredom. At the same time, he pointedly excepted sexual immorality, as a legitimate cause of dissolution. Further, when questioned by his followers privately, he said, This is not for all, but for those who can bear it (the phrase is an idiom that implies "whom the divine will has given to bear it").

Then, the Apostle, yes that would be St. Paul, established that a marriage can be dissolved with mortal death, the widow being free to "marry whomever she wishes, in the Lord." (For the sake of eternal orderliness, the Eastern Orthodox church limits the number of such marriages.) He further instituted that an unbeliever wishing to leave a marriage with a disciple is legitimate ground for dissolution -- "the brother or sister is no longer bound in such a case."

In our tradition, next the Church provided some other instances of economia, since after all the marriage of mortals is an icon of the Trinity's bond, and no man and woman ourselves are the Trinity. I am putting this together off the top of my head, but it will have to do -- if you wanted to know more, you'd have read the existing threads I'm sure.

In my opinion, the Roman Catholic problem here has its roots in a much larger problem, the Catholic inability to grasp the critical role economia plays in the health and salvation of mankind. Therefore, as created reality and legal construct tangle, avoidances like "annulment" play out their truly ridiculous role on the world stage.
There is a distinction to be made, separation  due to sexual immorality (this the Churches agree) ..and re marriage  (disagreement) ..no where in the bible does the bible state they can remarry unless there is a death.

Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible state (am I phrasing this right? I'm not used to Sola Scriptura legalism) that the divorced cannot remafry. But I'll go farther than that and play your own game: You're wrong; as St. Paul in I Cor. 7 specifically says, "A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such cases."

Quote
The annulment fiasco is from the Vatican 2 counterfeit Church,not the Catholic Church.

So two Catholic wrongs are supposed to add up to a right? If the Church saw the need to correct herself, and then got the correction wrong, that's just called being doubly wrong.

Quote
Matt 5:32
But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery

Why committeth adultery unless the one put away is still the wife of the one who has put her away?

 Even when there is a just reason, as in the case of fornication,for dismissing one’s wife, the marriage is not thereby dissolved. Our Lord’s meaning would then be expressed by the following paraphrase of the verse: “Whosoever shall put away his wife (though a man may be permitted to put away his wife on account of fornication, without, however, remarrying), and shall marry another,committeth adultery,and in any case he that shall marry her that Is put away committeth adultery, because she is still the wife of another.”

These are your words (in bold), not the Lord's. Are you now your own Christ the Teacher as well as your own Pope?

Quote
31 And it hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce.
But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery

The meaning of the 1st clause in the verse is that the husband that puts away his wife is responsible for what may happen afterward. She has deserved dismissal, and the blame ins not her husband’s if she incur the danger of further sinning. But Our Lord adds, without any exception or distinction, “he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery,” because she is still the wife of another. The contrast then,is clear: Moses permitted a certificate of divorce dissolving marriage, Christ permits no dissolving of marriage and regards as adulterous any marriage contracted by a wife separated from her husband.

None of this makes sense. You say the husband "is responsible" but "the blame is not" his. At least that's a coherent contradiction. The rest you say is just a mess. You can't take the conditional clause "except it be for fornication" and limit it at your whim.

Quote
The true Church has spoken.

The one without a Head?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 04:23:25 PM »
I'll also add that your emphasis on the wife's culpability is not only unchivalrous but unbiblical, as attested by St. Mark who reports the following equal treatment from the Lord:

Quote
And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, "Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband and be married to another, she committeth adultery."

-- even tho the Pharisees, maybe similarly minded to you, had only inquired about the culpability of the woman.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2017, 10:54:22 PM »
you write

Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible state (am I phrasing this right? I'm not used to Sola Scriptura legalism) that the divorced cannot remafry. But I'll go farther than that and play your own game: You're wrong; as St. Paul in I Cor. 7 specifically says, "A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such cases."

you clearly don't know what you are talking about and since you don't follow the bible,and the Catholic Church does... you make an absurd claim that I'm using sola scriptura legalism..this is because you don't have a leg to stand on

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy.

15 But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace.

this just means there are grounds for separation...there is no to be any remarrying Einstein..read your bible..only death dissolves the marriage
I'll respond when I get back from vacation...you have a lot of studying to do..use the time I grant you wisely

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2017, 11:13:16 PM »
I'll respond when I get back from vacation...you have a lot of studying to do..use the time I grant you wisely

Get lost.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2017, 11:36:19 PM »
I shall use it wisely by redoubling my efforts to provide high quality memes to oc.net.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 04:52:40 AM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the Orthodox allow for divorce?

Where does the Bible mandate a legalist/rigorist ethic?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 12:59:36 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the Orthodox allow for divorce?

Where does the Bible mandate a legalist/rigorist ethic?

Ironic.

When you use the Bible as a book of law, that in itself "mandates a legalistic ethic."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2017, 01:20:54 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the Orthodox allow for divorce?

Where does the Bible mandate a legalist/rigorist ethic?

Ironic.

When you use the Bible as a book of law, that in itself "mandates a legalistic ethic."

Well, as a Lutheran I believe the Bible is both Law and Gospel so it isn't a problem for me.   I just don't see a divorced person as being incapable of having faith in Jesus as their Savior, therefore I don't see the issue.  Roman Catholics are the only ones that have this issue by demanding living up to a particular standard of behavior as a "good work" to receive salvation.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2017, 01:25:58 PM »
The Traditional Catholic church has always condemned divorce, do all the Orthodox allow for divorce?

Where does the Bible mandate a legalist/rigorist ethic?

Ironic.

When you use the Bible as a book of law, that in itself "mandates a legalistic ethic."

Well, as a Lutheran I believe the Bible is both Law and Gospel so it isn't a problem for me.   I just don't see a divorced person as being incapable of having faith in Jesus as their Savior, therefore I don't see the issue.  Roman Catholics are the only ones that have this issue by demanding living up to a particular standard of behavior as a "good work" to receive salvation.

So you guys have Sola Scriptura as the Law of God but it's not a legalism that compels you to good works. Gosh, then, you know, that's really pointless and sad.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2017, 04:55:29 AM »
Roman Catholics are the only ones that have this issue by demanding living up to a particular standard of behavior as a "good work" to receive salvation.

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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2017, 09:33:07 AM »
Roman Catholics are the only ones that have this issue by demanding living up to a particular standard of behavior as a "good work" to receive salvation.

And if you don't do "good work" you will end up in hell.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2017, 12:53:39 PM »
Technically speaking, what sedevaticantis is presenting is the christian standard, however as the typical cold blood heterodox that he is, he misses the point entirely, in the Orthodox Church, we do have mercy and indulgences towards people who couldn't quite get there and got divorsed/remarried.

That being said, divorse and remerrige is not a right, it is an indulgence and mercy, the priest have the right to say No and if he does, No is a No. If the priest misjudges the situation, he will have to answer before God, so to put it plain it is non of your business, and you should worry about your own salvation instead of having your finger fixed at others.

Let us listen to the Lord Who answers to the pharisees: mercy I want not sacrifice, and Who told the woman on the well what she did but didn't condemn her, instead offered her the life-giving waters.










« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 12:55:19 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2017, 07:24:06 PM »
So you guys have Sola Scriptura as the Law of God but it's not a legalism that compels you to good works. Gosh, then, you know, that's really pointless and sad.

We don't believe legal compulsion results in genuine good works.  Good works are the result of the Holy Spirit: its possible to obey a law and still not have good motives for doing so.   Having been justified freely by God, we are free to love God and our neighbor according to our calling in life.  But we aren't compelled to do so by some external standard: salvation is a completely free gift from God through Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 07:30:34 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2017, 07:32:26 PM »
Roman Catholic Church defined marriage as contract. So if some conditions are broken: like the marriage is not done by free will, no intention to have children... Then RC thinks the marriage is not valid in the first place...so they get annulment

However, I am curious so the Roman Catholic Church thinks that the priests in marriage tribunal always make the right judgement??? What happens if the priest misjudge???

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2017, 11:21:22 PM »
Roman Catholic Church defined marriage as contract. So if some conditions are broken: like the marriage is not done by free will, no intention to have children... Then RC thinks the marriage is not valid in the first place...so they get annulment

However, I am curious so the Roman Catholic Church thinks that the priests in marriage tribunal always make the right judgement??? What happens if the priest misjudge???

Oh so sweetly naive. The whole purpose of the tribunal is to "misjudge" -- in a sophisticated way, of course -- otherwise, Catholics would only need a doctor's note.
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2017, 12:52:10 AM »
Technically speaking, what sedevaticantis is presenting is the christian standard, however as the typical cold blood heterodox that he is, he misses the point entirely, in the Orthodox Church, we do have mercy and indulgences towards people who couldn't quite get there and got divorsed/remarried.

That being said, divorse and remerrige is not a right, it is an indulgence and mercy, the priest have the right to say No and if he does, No is a No. If the priest misjudges the situation, he will have to answer before God, so to put it plain it is non of your business, and you should worry about your own salvation instead of having your finger fixed at others.

Let us listen to the Lord Who answers to the pharisees: mercy I want not sacrifice, and Who told the woman on the well what she did but didn't condemn her, instead offered her the life-giving waters.
you miss the point entirely because you don't follow the true Church of Christ..either remarrying someone when your first wife is alive is a sin of adultery or it isn't....I'm not talking about whether that sin can be forgiven as the Lord did to the woman on the well.....this is what happens when you are in the wrong, you must switch the argument .....amateur mistake

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »
To me, it seems far more problematic to say that your sacraments were oopies and can be annulled. If the sacrament of marriage can be null and void, does this also happen with your other sacraments?
God bless!

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2017, 09:03:07 AM »
To me, it seems far more problematic to say that your sacraments were oopies and can be annulled. If the sacrament of marriage can be null and void, does this also happen with your other sacraments?
Pope Leo XIII,
Dum Multa
 (# 2), Dec. 24, 1902: “It follows then that
the marriage of
Christians when fully accomplished... cannot be dissolved for any reason other than
the death of either spouse
, according to the holy words: ‘What God has joined, let no
man put asunder.’”
1
According to Catholic dogma, the essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility. 
A marriage validly contracted and consummated is
 binding until death separates the spouses. 

There is no such thing as the annulmen
t of a consummated sacramental marriage
.  The expression
is sometimes used inaccura
tely for the declaration of nullity of a
union reputed
to be a marriage but which
upon examination is proved not to have been such
.”
2
  It’s important for us to understand that there is
no such thing as “an annulment” of a consummated marriage, but only a declaration of nullity
that a certain union never was a marriage to begin with if there is clear-cut evidence proving that
a particular union was not validly contracted.
With this in mind, it’s easy to see why “annulments” (that is, declarations that certain unions
were
not actually marriages to begin with
) were traditionally given very rarely
.  Such cases are extremely
difficult to prove, and if there’s a doubt ab
out whether a particular union was a validly
contracted marriage, the Church pres
umes the validity of the marriage.
Canon 1014, 1917 Code of Cano
n Law: “Marriage enjoys the favor of law; therefore in
doubt the validity of marriage is to be upheld
 until the contrary is proven, with due
regard for the prescription of Canon 1127.”
3
A good example of “an annulment” that could be
 given on solid grounds would be if a woman
were to “marry” (through no fault of her own)
a man whom she later discovered to be a validly
ordained priest.  Since priests cannot enter into matrimony (canon 1972),
4
 the union between this
priest and the woman was not a valid marriage.  Sh
e would be given a decree of nullity that she
was never married.  She would be free to marry another person.
Another obvious example for an “annulment” would be if the person you “married” turned out
to have been married before, but he hid this in
formation from you.  An example from the past
would be if a woman married a slave whom she actually thought was a free man, but was not.  A
declaration of nullity would be given, since that
particular error about the person one is marrying
is so grave that it renders the
marriage invalid (canon 1083.2).
5
In all of these cases, the reason must be grav
e and the evidence that there never was a valid
marriage must be clear
.  That’s why
only 338 annulments were granted in 1968 in the U.S.,
when the pre-Vatican II teaching on marriage was still held by most
.   

However, with the explosion of the post-Vatican
II apostasy, the teaching of the indissolubility of
marriage has been thrown out the window along with the other dogmas. 
From 1984 to 1994, the
Vatican II Church in the U.S. granted just under 59,000 annually
,
even though the number of
Catholic marriages has fallen one third since 1965!
6
The Annulment Fiasco
383
In 2002 alone, the Vatican II sect granted 50,000 annulments in the United States!
 7
 An
astounding 97% of all annulments requested are granted in the United States
!  This means that
almost everyone who wants an “annulment”
 of his or her marriage gets one!
Fr. Leonard Kennedy: “From 1984 to 1994
it was 97% for First Instance trials
.  All cases
however have to have a second trial. 
The percentage of decisions overturned in the
United States is 4/10 of 1%
.”
8
This means that almost 100 percent of requested an
nulments are granted in the first trial, with the
chances of such an annulment being overturned
in a second trial being less than 1/2 of 1%
!  This
is a total rejection of the indissolubility of marriage in fact and in deed
.  This annulment fiasco
was the subject of Sheila Rauch Kennedy’s famous book,
Shattered Faith: A Woman’s Struggle to
Stop the Catholic Church from Annulling Her Marriage
.  This allowance of divorce and remarriage
under the pretext of phony marriage annulments
 has destroyed countless families and mocked
the Catholic Church before the world

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2017, 02:58:24 PM »
Quote
you miss the point entirely
You did, not me. You continue with your finger fixed at remarried couples as if this somehow proves your own righteousness...

Quote
because you don't follow the true Church of Christ
The true Church of Christ is where the unfailing orthodox confessing episcopacy administer sacraments to people which are essential for salvation.

You are member of a sect namely "sedevacantism" that has no bishops, in other words you are not member of a Church but of a sect or a cult, infact you should know that you are not even baptised.

Quote
either remarrying someone when your first wife is alive is a sin of adultery or it isn't
We are living and breathing in sin, if the Lord is to reveal to you all your wrong doings and make you comprehensе them you will probably commit suicide. Only God knows the hearts of the people who are remarrying, whether there is malicious intend/abuse or due to human weakness, other times remarrying may be choosing the lesser wrong and actually doing the right thing.

Quote
I'm not talking about whether that sin can be forgiven as the Lord did to the woman on the well
As i said, remarriage is indulgences and mercy, not a right.

Quote
this is what happens when you are in the wrong, you must switch the argument .....amateur mistake
what ?




« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 02:58:53 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2017, 04:34:58 PM »
Quote
you miss the point entirely
You did, not me. You continue with your finger fixed at remarried couples as if this somehow proves your own righteousness...

Quote
because you don't follow the true Church of Christ
The true Church of Christ is where the unfailing orthodox confessing episcopacy administer sacraments to people which are essential for salvation.

You are member of a sect namely "sedevacantism" that has no bishops, in other words you are not member of a Church but of a sect or a cult, infact you should know that you are not even baptised.

Quote
either remarrying someone when your first wife is alive is a sin of adultery or it isn't
We are living and breathing in sin, if the Lord is to reveal to you all your wrong doings and make you comprehensе them you will probably commit suicide. Only God knows the hearts of the people who are remarrying, whether there is malicious intend/abuse or due to human weakness, other times remarrying may be choosing the lesser wrong and actually doing the right thing.

Quote
I'm not talking about whether that sin can be forgiven as the Lord did to the woman on the well
As i said, remarriage is indulgences and mercy, not a right.

Quote
this is what happens when you are in the wrong, you must switch the argument .....amateur mistake
what ?
what are you babbling about ..self righteousness? I'm merely pointing out a difference between the Church of Christ (Catholic) and your schismatic sect. either remarrying is a sin when your spouse is alive or it isn't ...you can't seem to handle this so you start your ad hominine attacks. Typical of someone in the wrong.....
I am  a catholic, sedevacantism is not a religion, there are traditional bishops so you really don't know what you are talking about...you write "Only God knows the hearts of the people who are remarrying"
you sound ridiculous
God has already given us commandments, if you want to be part of a sect that breaks those commandments that is your problem..I'll stick with the Church of Christ

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2017, 09:26:09 AM »
Quote
either remarrying is a sin when your spouse is alive or it isn't

If the Church grands you this indulgence then it's not a sin but a mercy.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2017, 11:10:03 AM »
"Marriage is indissoluble until it isn't."

-Roman catholics
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2017, 12:21:01 PM »
Quote
either remarrying is a sin when your spouse is alive or it isn't

If the Church grands you this indulgence then it's not a sin but a mercy.
you don't get it,if your Church says it's ok to do something when Christ says you can't , you don't belong to the Church of Christ..that simple....having mercy on a sinner is another subject

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2017, 12:02:57 PM »
you don't get it,if your Church says it's ok to do something when Christ says you can't , you don't belong to the Church of Christ..that simple....having mercy on a sinner is another subject
You are overly generalizing, although Christ told us the standard, He also condemned the pharisees who were imposing strict laws on the people which they themselves couldn't keep.

Look up at the so called roman catholicism, ever since their schism from orthodoxy, their clergy ranks were plagued with sexual scandals.

So if you are taking their side, lecturing the Orthodox about remarrying is utter hypocrisy.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 12:09:45 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2017, 12:32:32 PM »
you don't get it,if your Church says it's ok to do something when Christ says you can't , you don't belong to the Church of Christ..that simple....having mercy on a sinner is another subject
You are overly generalizing, although Christ told us the standard, He also condemned the pharisees who were imposing strict laws on the people which they themselves couldn't keep.

Look up at the so called roman catholicism, ever since their schism from orthodoxy, their clergy ranks were plagued with sexual scandals.

So if you are taking their side, lecturing the Orthodox about remarrying is utter hypocrisy.
wrong,you can't handle the fact that The Catholic Church follows the commandments of Christ while your Church doesn't in this case...in your sad attempt to defend your position you now compare The Church following Christ's rules to the Pharisees imposing strict laws....ludicrous

then you jump to another issue (sex scandals) which has nothing to do with what we are debating...the reason...because you are losing the debate

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2017, 09:14:27 PM »
Most of Roman Catholics in their mind they only have rules and expectations.

They like to put God into the box. They run their church like a court or empire.

RCs see marriage as contract.... RCs they try to define everything in legalistic ways. 
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2017, 01:46:11 PM »
Most of Roman Catholics in their mind they only have rules and expectations.

They like to put God into the box. They run their church like a court or empire.

RCs see marriage as contract.... RCs they try to define everything in legalistic ways.
so by obeying God's commands we are putting Him in a box???  righhhht

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2017, 03:56:43 PM »
To me, it seems far more problematic to say that your sacraments were oopies and can be annulled. If the sacrament of marriage can be null and void, does this also happen with your other sacraments?

From my knowledge, in the Roman church it is actually the man and the woman who "administer" the sacrament (different from the Orthodox Church where it is the priest), and the annulment, technically speaking, is simply a declaration that the sacrament never took place - since both parties are needed to administer the sacrament, if one doesn't participate (which requires a will to be with that person forever, to have children, etc.), it never takes place.

In Roman terminology, a sacrament being "invalid" or "null and void" means it doesn't happen. Sacraments can also take place validly, but illicitly - which means it is not allowed by the church.

As to other sacraments, yes - for example, because the Anglican church doesn't believe in the Eucharist and rejects Apostolic succession, the sacrament of holy orders is invalid and never happens - however, the Orthodox Church, from the Roman perspective, does indeed have valid holy orders and valid sacraments, but they are illicit because they aren't in communion with Rome.

So, an Anglican priest couldn't at all consecrate the bread and make it the Eucharist, because they don't have a valid priesthood - but the Orthodox priest is able to, and the Eucharist is truly present in the Orthodox Church (something the Orthodox Church already believes).

Sacraments can also be invalid if the specific words aren't used or they don't use the proper matter - if they used a chip for the Eucharist, it wouldn't be valid.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2017, 04:23:47 PM »
To me, it seems far more problematic to say that your sacraments were oopies and can be annulled. If the sacrament of marriage can be null and void, does this also happen with your other sacraments?

From my knowledge, in the Roman church it is actually the man and the woman who "administer" the sacrament (different from the Orthodox Church where it is the priest), and the annulment, technically speaking, is simply a declaration that the sacrament never took place - since both parties are needed to administer the sacrament, if one doesn't participate (which requires a will to be with that person forever, to have children, etc.), it never takes place.

In Roman terminology, a sacrament being "invalid" or "null and void" means it doesn't happen. Sacraments can also take place validly, but illicitly - which means it is not allowed by the church.

As to other sacraments, yes - for example, because the Anglican church doesn't believe in the Eucharist and rejects Apostolic succession, the sacrament of holy orders is invalid and never happens - however, the Orthodox Church, from the Roman perspective, does indeed have valid holy orders and valid sacraments, but they are illicit because they aren't in communion with Rome.

So, an Anglican priest couldn't at all consecrate the bread and make it the Eucharist, because they don't have a valid priesthood - but the Orthodox priest is able to, and the Eucharist is truly present in the Orthodox Church (something the Orthodox Church already believes).

Sacraments can also be invalid if the specific words aren't used or they don't use the proper matter - if they used a chip for the Eucharist, it wouldn't be valid.

I should also point out that usually administering a sacrament either illicitly or invalidly causes de facto excommunication.

It should be stated this is NOT the Orthodox perspective, but the RC perspective. The Orthodox Church holds there are asolutely no valid or licit Sacraments outside the Orthodox Church, unless potentially by Economia God allows it - but this is debated in the Orthodox Church and isn't concerning for the Orthodox Faithful. These divergences on Sacraments outside the Church can be traced back to the debate between Saint Cyprian and Saint Pope Stephen.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 04:33:52 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2017, 04:45:14 PM »
Masters of casuistry.
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2017, 04:54:59 PM »
Most of Roman Catholics in their mind they only have rules and expectations.

They like to put God into the box. They run their church like a court or empire.

RCs see marriage as contract.... RCs they try to define everything in legalistic ways.

Anthony, no offense, but I've noticed that you seem to have been, very recently in your posts, spouting pure malice towards the Roman Catholic Church.

And look - I wouldn't doubt that people in the Roman Catholic Church have been malicious or evil towards you, but you have to remember that Christ said we should love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.

And honestly, you have to realize that even some Orthodox members can be just as snobbish or elitist towards heterodox Christians - it is a sin that I have committed at points even.

And showing such hatred for even a portion of members, let alone the organization as a whole, will not convince any Roman Catholics or other heterodox Christians to find salvation in the Orthodox Church.

Look, we all have sins - let's pray and show love to those who have wronged us.

And look at it this way - the Roman Catholic Church led you to the Orthodox Church, where you seem to be happier now - so pray that those people can change their life and have a true relationship with Christ, lest they go to the other place that isn't Heaven.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 04:57:29 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2017, 04:57:07 PM »
Masters of casuistry.

Could you elaborate?

And also, I think the word "casuistry" has to be probably your award winning word for terminology that I had to Google.

EDIT: That is, if you think the reasoning is unsound and view it in a pejorative sense of the word.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 05:06:45 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Divorce orthodox vs Catholic
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2017, 05:41:06 PM »
I am specifically denominating the practice of arguing to a desired conclusion. The term is often used more loosely. But it derives from the Vatican's office of casuistry, which came to be perceived as, very cleverly, arguing away the guilt of sins committed by certain powerful or wealthy figures so that they could avoid penance or punishment. Sort of the opposite of the Spanish Inquisition, in other words. Leaving that particular historical connection, the term simply describes the uncanny ability of the church to argue very cleverly to any desired conclusion. So we have the modern arguments to extenuate the filioque as reproduced by Sedevacantist in another thread: many tacks are taken, but the conclusion is foregone.
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